This page is for civil discussion of the nature of Scientific theory, Metaphysics and the nature of Knowing.
Theory: ID is, for lack of a better phrase, in direct competition with Evolution/Darwinian selection. This being the case, "theory" as used in concurrance with "Intelligent design" is generally understood to mean "Scientific theory." Unless a question is raised, hopefully we can take that as agreed upon (this discussion of "theory" relates to "scientific theory" and not any other use of that word.)
Scientific theory: The best explanation/definition/clarification of theory I have found to date is here: Laws, Hypotheses, and Theories. I find this definition more concise than the WP entry, which is admittedly more exhaustive. From that site: "In layman’s terms, if something is said to be “just a theory,” it usually means that it is a mere guess, or is unproved. It might even lack credibility. But in scientific terms, a theory implies that something has been proven and is generally accepted as being true."
In specific, the confusion surrounding the ID issue is the basic misunderstanding of "theory" as meaning something like "I think I have a good explanation for this." "Theory" actually has quite specific criteria, and ID does not meet that criteria. IMHO one of the, if not the main, point of divergence is this: a theory originates from observable facts or is supported by them. A theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations made that is predictive, logical, testable, and has never been falsified. (pasted from the WP entry, italics mine, for emphasis as I will use the words below) ID is intelligent design, hence an intelligence, aka the designer - unobservable by the scientific method. A supposition which is not backed by observation is known as a conjecture, which would be accurate for ID.
A brief trip down the "break" in ID as compared to evolution:
To put it a different way: Darwin was able to posit some sort of inheritence factor which was replicated, with variations, because of observation. That was in the 1800s. In the 1950s, Watson and Crick identified DNA, which was predicted by evolutionary theory. This is an example of a theory being predictive. What can ID predict? Nothing. What can be observed which leads to ID as a hypothesis? Nothing of which I am aware.
I think that's enough to get us started.
I'd like to add a basic disclaimer: I sometimes make errors in choosing my words or phrasing, so I may have mis-stated things and reserve the right to correct. I am not a scientist, noteable or otherwise. Anything stated as fact may be just my opinion entered without clarification as such, and my opinions are of course my own and subject to error. KillerChihuahua 15:44, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Theory vs Scientific Theory does seem to be at the heart of the problem. Bengaper clearly hasn't accepted that theory==scientific theory. I don't think I automatically do either. For me, scientific theory is a subset of theory, and I suspect the man in the street would agree. I realise that creationists have used 'just a theory' to disrespect evolution, but it seems that we're now saying 'ID is not even a theory'. Now maybe that's not what we mean. Perhaps most people familiar with ID do agree that theory==>scientific theory, but they aren't the only ones we're writing for. I think we should be able to have something that keeps them happy, without confusing people who see a distinction between the two terms.
To paraphase my dictionary: a theory is an explaination for observed facts. Now, ID may not be a good explaination, in the sense of being testable, or predictive, or useful for anything other than annoying evolutionists. But 'a God created the world' is an explaination for the existance of the world. It's no advance on our earliest forebears' theories, but it is, by my definition, a theory.
I don't follow the details, but I accept that there are things that have not yet been explained using evolution. Some people report this as "evolution does not explain X", falsely implying that "evolution cannot explain X" or even "X is incompatible with evolution". That's the dark side of ID.
On the other hand, many biologists are getting very excited by these 'gaps'. By discovering things we don't know, we have an opportunity to increase the things we do know. And that is happening, gaps are found gaps are closed. Probably there will always be gaps. By presenting these challenges, ID is improving our understanding of evolution. That's the light side of ID.
ID and evolution are not direct competitors. The core ID crowd accept a weak version of evolution, in effect they say that a God created everything and, since then, it has evolved. Of course, not everyone who invokes ID either understands it, or subscribes to all of it.
ID is a sort of strategic retreat, which is what I like least about it. It leads to a situation where God exists only where we are ignorant. As soon as we can understand an aspect of life, we evict God from it.
I don't see why a predictable universe must be a godless universe.
Regards, Ben Aveling 20:57, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
The reason theory (dicdef) vs. theory (scientific) matters is that the ID debate is, de facto, opposed to evolution, which is a scientific theory. Accuracy is important. Hence, if we cannot use the same (strict) meaning for ID (which we cannot, as it clearly does not meet the criteria), then it is less confusing to avoid using the word "theory" in relation to ID at all. To have to specify every time the word is used in the article is another alternative, and its easy to see how much more tedious and bizarre that would be.
Id is a theory (not a scientific theory, please see the dicdef) which states...
heheheheh no. KillerChihuahua 21:46, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Leaving aside the very real problems caused by actually using the word, you do agree that it is a theory?
Assume for the sake of argument that you do.
Would the question then become; is it possible to describe ID without either implying that ID is a scientific theory or implying that ID is not a theory?
Regards, Ben Aveling 06:37, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
KillerChihuahua 12:44, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Let me check my understanding of what you've just said.
That sounds like a very strong claim. Perhaps I've misunderstood something you said and I'm overstating your position?
Regards, Ben Aveling 06:03, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
A belief is still a theory. It helps us interact with the world.
Let me paraphrase my own ignorance.
I can conceive a single cell animal evolving into a multi-celled animal. Perhaps they behaved something the way that slime molds sometimes behave, and 'decided' that it worked for them.
I cannot imagine how a single cell animal could come into existance. I have faith it was through a process of evolution but I cannot even begin to guess how.
I'm not a biologist, they might have some ideas.
I am persuaded that ID, as a whole, is not a scientific theory. I still tend towards describing it as an unscientific theory.
Perhaps we are speaking different languages. I am speaking a dialect in which anyone may have theories. Perhaps, in your dialect, theories are reserved for scientists?
If so, what we are arguing over is nothing interesting, just two fools pushing on opposite sides of a cart, each thinking the other agreed to pull, and wondering why the cart won't move.
Would you prefer to explore the idea that ID is not a theory?
That might be fruitful, or perhaps not.
Let us set aside this fruitless word.
Would you prefer to explore the idea that ID is a explaination?
Because I can be persuaded of that. ID is collection of observations, a little logic, and a conclusion.
If it all held water, it would be an explaination. But it doesn't, so it isn't an explaination.
But a theory doesn't have to hold water. A theory is just a candidate to be an explaination.
So we're back at the cart again.
Maybe ID is a guess? Every theory is a guess, until proven otherwise.
But a guess is a choice between options. ID is more of an exploration of an option, two options in fact. ID is an exploration of Evoltion, in an attempt to find fault - a long an honoured tradition in science. And ID is an attempt to posit an alternate explaination - another honourable tradition.
I could be wrong, but my reading says that ID has managed to find things that Evolution is not able to explain. That is, they have some interesting observations that are valid.
It's the logic that lets them down, in my opinion. Having demonstrated that there are limits to our understanding of evolution, they then propose an alternate explaination, the god of the gaps.
Now if all the gaps are small, I don't see that anyone would care. How did freckles evolve? Who knows? Or cares? Let god do freckles.
But the big stuff, like single cell animals, I think that's important. I'd like to know how they came about. Did God do it? If so, did God evolve from a single cell animal? If not, does God have cells? Saying God did it, so everything is answered doesn't help. I still want to know how God did it.
I digress. Where were we. You were saying that ID is not a scientific theory, so it is not a theory. I'm not sure if I've advanced that argument at all.
I have a theory. I believe I have reached the point where will be a happier person if I go and make breakfast. Or maybe that's not a theory either.
Perhaps you could give me an example of something that is not a scientific theory but is still a theory?
Regards, Ben Aveling 20:41, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I have no idea what the guided/unguided dichotomy means in the context of evolution. An analogy might help. If I drop a ball at the top of a hill, and it ends up at the bottom of the hill, was that guided? Regards, Ben Aveling 20:08, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
This is just my sense of things, but...
I could be wrong. I probably am.
Regards, Ben Aveling 10:05, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
This page is for civil discussion of the nature of Scientific theory, Metaphysics and the nature of Knowing.
Theory: ID is, for lack of a better phrase, in direct competition with Evolution/Darwinian selection. This being the case, "theory" as used in concurrance with "Intelligent design" is generally understood to mean "Scientific theory." Unless a question is raised, hopefully we can take that as agreed upon (this discussion of "theory" relates to "scientific theory" and not any other use of that word.)
Scientific theory: The best explanation/definition/clarification of theory I have found to date is here: Laws, Hypotheses, and Theories. I find this definition more concise than the WP entry, which is admittedly more exhaustive. From that site: "In layman’s terms, if something is said to be “just a theory,” it usually means that it is a mere guess, or is unproved. It might even lack credibility. But in scientific terms, a theory implies that something has been proven and is generally accepted as being true."
In specific, the confusion surrounding the ID issue is the basic misunderstanding of "theory" as meaning something like "I think I have a good explanation for this." "Theory" actually has quite specific criteria, and ID does not meet that criteria. IMHO one of the, if not the main, point of divergence is this: a theory originates from observable facts or is supported by them. A theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations made that is predictive, logical, testable, and has never been falsified. (pasted from the WP entry, italics mine, for emphasis as I will use the words below) ID is intelligent design, hence an intelligence, aka the designer - unobservable by the scientific method. A supposition which is not backed by observation is known as a conjecture, which would be accurate for ID.
A brief trip down the "break" in ID as compared to evolution:
To put it a different way: Darwin was able to posit some sort of inheritence factor which was replicated, with variations, because of observation. That was in the 1800s. In the 1950s, Watson and Crick identified DNA, which was predicted by evolutionary theory. This is an example of a theory being predictive. What can ID predict? Nothing. What can be observed which leads to ID as a hypothesis? Nothing of which I am aware.
I think that's enough to get us started.
I'd like to add a basic disclaimer: I sometimes make errors in choosing my words or phrasing, so I may have mis-stated things and reserve the right to correct. I am not a scientist, noteable or otherwise. Anything stated as fact may be just my opinion entered without clarification as such, and my opinions are of course my own and subject to error. KillerChihuahua 15:44, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Theory vs Scientific Theory does seem to be at the heart of the problem. Bengaper clearly hasn't accepted that theory==scientific theory. I don't think I automatically do either. For me, scientific theory is a subset of theory, and I suspect the man in the street would agree. I realise that creationists have used 'just a theory' to disrespect evolution, but it seems that we're now saying 'ID is not even a theory'. Now maybe that's not what we mean. Perhaps most people familiar with ID do agree that theory==>scientific theory, but they aren't the only ones we're writing for. I think we should be able to have something that keeps them happy, without confusing people who see a distinction between the two terms.
To paraphase my dictionary: a theory is an explaination for observed facts. Now, ID may not be a good explaination, in the sense of being testable, or predictive, or useful for anything other than annoying evolutionists. But 'a God created the world' is an explaination for the existance of the world. It's no advance on our earliest forebears' theories, but it is, by my definition, a theory.
I don't follow the details, but I accept that there are things that have not yet been explained using evolution. Some people report this as "evolution does not explain X", falsely implying that "evolution cannot explain X" or even "X is incompatible with evolution". That's the dark side of ID.
On the other hand, many biologists are getting very excited by these 'gaps'. By discovering things we don't know, we have an opportunity to increase the things we do know. And that is happening, gaps are found gaps are closed. Probably there will always be gaps. By presenting these challenges, ID is improving our understanding of evolution. That's the light side of ID.
ID and evolution are not direct competitors. The core ID crowd accept a weak version of evolution, in effect they say that a God created everything and, since then, it has evolved. Of course, not everyone who invokes ID either understands it, or subscribes to all of it.
ID is a sort of strategic retreat, which is what I like least about it. It leads to a situation where God exists only where we are ignorant. As soon as we can understand an aspect of life, we evict God from it.
I don't see why a predictable universe must be a godless universe.
Regards, Ben Aveling 20:57, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
The reason theory (dicdef) vs. theory (scientific) matters is that the ID debate is, de facto, opposed to evolution, which is a scientific theory. Accuracy is important. Hence, if we cannot use the same (strict) meaning for ID (which we cannot, as it clearly does not meet the criteria), then it is less confusing to avoid using the word "theory" in relation to ID at all. To have to specify every time the word is used in the article is another alternative, and its easy to see how much more tedious and bizarre that would be.
Id is a theory (not a scientific theory, please see the dicdef) which states...
heheheheh no. KillerChihuahua 21:46, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Leaving aside the very real problems caused by actually using the word, you do agree that it is a theory?
Assume for the sake of argument that you do.
Would the question then become; is it possible to describe ID without either implying that ID is a scientific theory or implying that ID is not a theory?
Regards, Ben Aveling 06:37, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
KillerChihuahua 12:44, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Let me check my understanding of what you've just said.
That sounds like a very strong claim. Perhaps I've misunderstood something you said and I'm overstating your position?
Regards, Ben Aveling 06:03, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
A belief is still a theory. It helps us interact with the world.
Let me paraphrase my own ignorance.
I can conceive a single cell animal evolving into a multi-celled animal. Perhaps they behaved something the way that slime molds sometimes behave, and 'decided' that it worked for them.
I cannot imagine how a single cell animal could come into existance. I have faith it was through a process of evolution but I cannot even begin to guess how.
I'm not a biologist, they might have some ideas.
I am persuaded that ID, as a whole, is not a scientific theory. I still tend towards describing it as an unscientific theory.
Perhaps we are speaking different languages. I am speaking a dialect in which anyone may have theories. Perhaps, in your dialect, theories are reserved for scientists?
If so, what we are arguing over is nothing interesting, just two fools pushing on opposite sides of a cart, each thinking the other agreed to pull, and wondering why the cart won't move.
Would you prefer to explore the idea that ID is not a theory?
That might be fruitful, or perhaps not.
Let us set aside this fruitless word.
Would you prefer to explore the idea that ID is a explaination?
Because I can be persuaded of that. ID is collection of observations, a little logic, and a conclusion.
If it all held water, it would be an explaination. But it doesn't, so it isn't an explaination.
But a theory doesn't have to hold water. A theory is just a candidate to be an explaination.
So we're back at the cart again.
Maybe ID is a guess? Every theory is a guess, until proven otherwise.
But a guess is a choice between options. ID is more of an exploration of an option, two options in fact. ID is an exploration of Evoltion, in an attempt to find fault - a long an honoured tradition in science. And ID is an attempt to posit an alternate explaination - another honourable tradition.
I could be wrong, but my reading says that ID has managed to find things that Evolution is not able to explain. That is, they have some interesting observations that are valid.
It's the logic that lets them down, in my opinion. Having demonstrated that there are limits to our understanding of evolution, they then propose an alternate explaination, the god of the gaps.
Now if all the gaps are small, I don't see that anyone would care. How did freckles evolve? Who knows? Or cares? Let god do freckles.
But the big stuff, like single cell animals, I think that's important. I'd like to know how they came about. Did God do it? If so, did God evolve from a single cell animal? If not, does God have cells? Saying God did it, so everything is answered doesn't help. I still want to know how God did it.
I digress. Where were we. You were saying that ID is not a scientific theory, so it is not a theory. I'm not sure if I've advanced that argument at all.
I have a theory. I believe I have reached the point where will be a happier person if I go and make breakfast. Or maybe that's not a theory either.
Perhaps you could give me an example of something that is not a scientific theory but is still a theory?
Regards, Ben Aveling 20:41, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I have no idea what the guided/unguided dichotomy means in the context of evolution. An analogy might help. If I drop a ball at the top of a hill, and it ends up at the bottom of the hill, was that guided? Regards, Ben Aveling 20:08, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
This is just my sense of things, but...
I could be wrong. I probably am.
Regards, Ben Aveling 10:05, 11 December 2005 (UTC)