Hi Allan,
i wonder why you keep trying to delete the "Structural engineering" as a main branch of engineering. Do you really understand what is structural engineering ? I think you are just simply follow the listed provided by the ASEE. In reality, structural engineering is not really similar and also not really a sub-discipline of civil engineering. It covers the structural design and analysis of all civil, mechanical, aerospace, material, architectural, naval architecture and even biomedical's structures. I am a structural engineer, I don't agree structural engineering is belong to any other engineering branch, it is an independent engineering disciplince. The design and analysis of buildings and bridges, we called it civil structures but not structural engineering. Structural engineering means anything related to the design and analysis for structural compenents and systems. This is the point i need to clarify with you. Besides, although the ASEE does not list out structural engineering as main branch of engineering, this doesn't mean that structural engineering is not a main branch of engineering. In many U.S. states, structural engineer requires different license to civil engineer in order to practice as a structural engineer and the license for structural engineer does not really require undergraudate degree in civil engineering as the minimum education requirement, but with architecutral engineering background also can sit for the structural engineer licensing exam. We are here to help to editing the wikipedia, ASEE standard is only for American people but not for the whole world. -- Hwachang82
20:29, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for cleaning up FBP! I note that Visual programming languages have been removed, but this is implied by Data flow languages, so I guess it was redundant. Is it OK to mix footnote references in with References - could you take a look? It looks a bit odd to me!
I wasn't sure about the companies, but I wanted to convey a sense of the maturity of the technology - any suggestions? Thanks in advance. Jpaulm 18:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Allan! Yes, since I posed the question, I realized that I should try to make every reference a footnote, as you suggest. I'll look at the Hewitt thing - I am aware of some of the pitfalls, and have been working hard at NPOV, so an actual case study should be useful... PS It seems that there is a real problem on Wikipedia with stuff that a person knows, but is not in published documents - I have run into this one on a totally different topic. Regards. Jpaulm 20:13, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
After much wheel-spinning I finally used a "cite journal" for one of the articles, and used Citeseer references for some others. a) Did I do that right?, and b) the Citeseer tag doesn't seem to have an accessdate - is that because it's not needed, or can/should it be added? And, if so, how? And, by the way, can you give me a definition (or place to look) for the difference between "functional" and "applicative"? TIA Jpaulm 17:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I tried going the GA route as Peer review didn't get any feedback, and I failed miserably! (I also tried GA/R and got a bit more feedback.) In a way this result does not surprise me as I haven't had much success over the years in getting articles published - not academic enough, I guess! Could we get some kind of collaboration going to improve the article - perhaps via the Wikiproject on Computer Science...? Thanks in advance. Jpaulm 19:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Allan - I had posted on talk:software architecture my question about the "To Be Engineered" casing, then saw that you have corrected that. Thanks.
I've been watching the software & system engineering articles & see that you've contributed quite a bit; so, thanks, I appreciate your work. -- Bwefler 23:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC) talk (somewhat of a renegade software engineering grad student...)
Thanks for the welcome message Allan. I am a newbie in wikipedia with little spare time but I am intending to at least contribute to the discussions. Takhisis 01:32, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I noticed you identified yourself as a Wikipedian in New Zealand. You may be interested in New Zealander-Israeli relations. Respectfully, Republitarian 23:33, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi Allan,
Reference to your last edit comment for Career domains in computer science, you have used phrase 'peacock words'. From the 'diff', I can make out what you mean. However, when I looked up the phrase at www.m-w.com, could not find it. Is it a local lingo/ slang? Just curious... -- Raanoo 08:42, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I wonder if I could get your input at Talk:Eiffel programming language#What code formatting convention should be used?. It turns out that Bertrand Meyer has been doing a lot of work on the article, which seems to be mostly a good thing—the content has certainly been enhanced significantly. However, it's still a bit of a mixed bag. There is lots of good content he's added, but the tone of him writing about "his baby" is slightly off. Not terrible though.
The narrow issue I would like your opinion on is the article use of what is apparently an idiosyncracy about how Eiffel documentation formats code samples. Meyer takes the somewhat silly position that doing it differently than his company, Eiffel Software, does would "misrepresent the language". I personally would really like it to follow conventions of other PL articles, at least as a direction... well, you can seen the discussion at the link (I put an narrow article RfC to try to get comments on the issue too). LotLE× talk 07:14, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I've been listening in on the Functional Programming entry for the past couple months now. You'll probably see more contributions in the future. Just to fill you in on my own background. I've been working with the storage and analysis of time series data for the past 15 years or so. My interest in functional program stems from my initial attempts to learn K about four years ago. I found the language incredibly hard and completely alien to the way I'd been programming. That's when I began to do research into Lisp, APL and later functional programming in general, which was essential to gaining a clear understanding of what K was about. More recently I've been creating materials for teaching a course in K and consequently been doing more extensive research into functional programming.
I have some strong opinions which I'm guessing differ a bit from your own take as well as LotLE, but I think it will be productive all around. Abcarter 19:17, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused at the process. I explained what my proposed changes were, answers objections and waited for replies. After getting none I went ahead. Six minutes later LotLE complete reverts. He objects to my intro sentence. He may well have a point, but I did give an explanation in the discussion section and wondering why he doesn't simply make a change rather than revert the entire set of changes I made. This isn't a complaint so much as a query about whether this is the usual procedure. Abcarter 17:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I have a few objections to your WSN page edits. It seems like you have cleared up the external links (which is a good thing), but i think that you have cleared up a bit too much. The commercial companies links had to go - i agree. But why are the following links removed?
The reason you are giving is "rm commercial links, blogs, foreign language links:"
TinyOS is a non-commercial open-source operating system and that website is NOT a blog. TinyOS is the basic building block of sensor networks. tinyos.net is the FIRST website that a person not familiar with sensor networks is reffered to and it has a lot of very helpful resources.
The Sensor Network Museum is an effort to collect information about various sensor node hardware platforms. Its the most extensive resource available on sensor network hardwares (not pertaining to any one specific platform but doing a nice breadth and depth wise search of ALL platforms proposed so far). There is a section on "hardware" in the WSN article and this resource is the natural next step for readers interested in further links on sensor network hardware.
MAC Protocol Soup: Again, the most comprehensive listings of MAC protocols in sensor networks. There are a *lot* of MAC protocols for sensor networks outthere and this is the most extensive study done on MAC protocols in "trying to make sense out of it all".
I am a sensor networks researcher and been working in the field for around 3 years now. All the above three links are the most important, impartial, and very useful links which are compiled after years of efforts from various research groups. I am of the opinion that the wikipedia readers should be given links to them (if they want to look for further information).
Please reply on MY talk page as I am sure that I would forget to check this talk page. and thanks for your clearing up effort on the WSN page.
Muneeb.ali 02:03, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the wellcome message, i appreciate it. Regards. Addicted2Sanity 04:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Allan,
I'm new to Wikipedia, from editor's point of view, and I hope I'm correct in editing this page to communicate with you. I will be working actively to update the software architecture page over the next few weeks. Then I'll work on updating other relevant software architectures sub-topics. I was surprised to see the page in such primitive stage. I'm still learning the tools of trade, so I will seek your guidance on proper formatting, etc.
Thanks for communicating and keeping an eye on this page. FirebrandCK. Firebrandck 05:17, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Looking forward to working with you in the near future ... Firebrandck 18:13, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for formatting my edits. I will use your augmentation of my references as examples as I move forward. I'm also planning to introduce new sections down the line... Thanks again! Firebrandck 20:49, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi there! Thanks for welcoming me to WikiProject CS! NerdyNSK 18:02, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
wvbailey here: I don't know what to make of what has been going on relative to that article. Probably in response to "anonymous", "Krauss" created the page yesterday, then I corrected the English and added to it -- all of the in-line citations, plus the syntax, the justification for the mnemonic-choice etc. (RE the article history). But all of this has been going on because of "anonymous"'s insistence. Go to the discussion on the Register machine discussion page to see what a mess this has been since "anonymous" appeared. (Recently I split the Counter machine page off from Register machine so most of the talk appears on the reg-mach discussion page.) Some of what "anonymous" suggested is a good idea -- to define a simple syntax so a comparison of the models is easier. But, for example, the creation of the "RefLib" strikes me as (maybe) going too far in the NOR direction, I can't tell. Because of his persistence it feels like "anon" is having me write chapters in his wiki-book, or something. I need a bit of perspective here: any advice or suggestions would be welcome. Thanks, wvbailey Wvbailey 13:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
This is my worry too. But the syntax thing has been very helpful, i.e the stuff that looks like:
This is verbatim from the text Boolos-Burgess-Jeffrey (2002) and very close to Minsky (1967). But whether we can use this syntax to explain, for comparison purposes, the models on Counter machine models, I dunno, would the use of this syntax be OR? And also helpful has been Krauss's insistence on a standardized use of mnemonics as functions such as INC(r) or JZ(r,z). Please comment.
For sure it is true that many examples in the two texts are there -- how to build new functions from the base functions, in a manner similar to the table. But I am uncomfortable with the RefLib. Krauss will put up a fight and be disappointed, I think. Is there some way around this? I know in the past other wiki-folk have tried to come up with a standardized computer "language" (some sort or other), and failed. If you know of a "successful article" in this regard, please point me there. Or if you know of some other advisors who can render opinions, please do. (I don't know of any). We could vote, for example. Thanks.
This OR thing is hard: we can never know all "the literature", often what I think is OR turns out to be out there somewhere. But I've had a lot of experience with patent law, and there is a similar problem there too -- lawyers make fortunes off the disputes.
Also, given that the article survives, how do we fix its name? Thanks, wvbailey Wvbailey 15:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Hey thanks! Good to see another UC alumnus on Wikipedia!-- James Bond 22:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Allen, I've been doing some work on the K language entry. Based on a suggestion I've merged the entry on KDB into the K entry. No problem with any of this, and in general have a fairly clear idea of what I want to add in regards to KDB. Here's my problem. Is KDB a relational database? I have two opposing arguments and I consider both problematic. Kx Systems and Arthur Whitney say that it is. I think this is mostly marketing and think that it is not. I have my reasons which I can articulate, the core point being that KDB has no data model, there is no distinction made between a logical description of the data and the way it's physical stored. I know this is my opinion, even if I'm right it's more original research than reference. That's fine, I don't have a lot invested in this, but do I simply take the vendor's word? Understand that I don't think I can simply duck the decision here. Abcarter 22:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi Allan,
You were very helpful in the area of WP conventions before - I am wondering if you could give some guidance: I have been told that I can improve this article by adding citing articles to Talk:John_Paul_Morrison, so I have added quite a few there (my hand got tired!). There are also several on Flow-based programming. My question is how to tie them together...? My other question is whether you would be willing to add a section on how FBP relates to Actor theory. Thanks. Jpaulm 19:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks very much for your vote, Allan. I understand and agree that I should not edit the article myself - do you have any ideas about what should be done with the references in Talk:John_Paul_Morrison... and who might do it? Also, my request about Actor theory still stands! Jpaulm 02:20, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
You are invited to Auckland Meetup 2 on the afternoon of Saturday February 10th 2007 at Galbraith's Ale House in Mt Eden. Please see Wikipedia:Meetup/Auckland 2 for details. You can also bookmark Wikipedia:Meetup/Auckland to be informed of future NZ meetups. - SimonLyall 06:46, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
How can I recommend that a particular user be blocked? Tparameter 05:34, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Regarding this edit: [1]...please don't mark an article that's clearly bad or designed to create a link to a website as a copyvio. Mark it as bad or spam above all else. Copyvio only causes the source to provide us with an email permitting its use, and then we have to go through the motions of getting rid of the garbage all over again. Thanks! Bastiq▼e demandez 15:48, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi Allan,
i wonder why you keep trying to delete the "Structural engineering" as a main branch of engineering. Do you really understand what is structural engineering ? I think you are just simply follow the listed provided by the ASEE. In reality, structural engineering is not really similar and also not really a sub-discipline of civil engineering. It covers the structural design and analysis of all civil, mechanical, aerospace, material, architectural, naval architecture and even biomedical's structures. I am a structural engineer, I don't agree structural engineering is belong to any other engineering branch, it is an independent engineering disciplince. The design and analysis of buildings and bridges, we called it civil structures but not structural engineering. Structural engineering means anything related to the design and analysis for structural compenents and systems. This is the point i need to clarify with you. Besides, although the ASEE does not list out structural engineering as main branch of engineering, this doesn't mean that structural engineering is not a main branch of engineering. In many U.S. states, structural engineer requires different license to civil engineer in order to practice as a structural engineer and the license for structural engineer does not really require undergraudate degree in civil engineering as the minimum education requirement, but with architecutral engineering background also can sit for the structural engineer licensing exam. We are here to help to editing the wikipedia, ASEE standard is only for American people but not for the whole world. -- Hwachang82
20:29, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for cleaning up FBP! I note that Visual programming languages have been removed, but this is implied by Data flow languages, so I guess it was redundant. Is it OK to mix footnote references in with References - could you take a look? It looks a bit odd to me!
I wasn't sure about the companies, but I wanted to convey a sense of the maturity of the technology - any suggestions? Thanks in advance. Jpaulm 18:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Allan! Yes, since I posed the question, I realized that I should try to make every reference a footnote, as you suggest. I'll look at the Hewitt thing - I am aware of some of the pitfalls, and have been working hard at NPOV, so an actual case study should be useful... PS It seems that there is a real problem on Wikipedia with stuff that a person knows, but is not in published documents - I have run into this one on a totally different topic. Regards. Jpaulm 20:13, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
After much wheel-spinning I finally used a "cite journal" for one of the articles, and used Citeseer references for some others. a) Did I do that right?, and b) the Citeseer tag doesn't seem to have an accessdate - is that because it's not needed, or can/should it be added? And, if so, how? And, by the way, can you give me a definition (or place to look) for the difference between "functional" and "applicative"? TIA Jpaulm 17:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I tried going the GA route as Peer review didn't get any feedback, and I failed miserably! (I also tried GA/R and got a bit more feedback.) In a way this result does not surprise me as I haven't had much success over the years in getting articles published - not academic enough, I guess! Could we get some kind of collaboration going to improve the article - perhaps via the Wikiproject on Computer Science...? Thanks in advance. Jpaulm 19:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Allan - I had posted on talk:software architecture my question about the "To Be Engineered" casing, then saw that you have corrected that. Thanks.
I've been watching the software & system engineering articles & see that you've contributed quite a bit; so, thanks, I appreciate your work. -- Bwefler 23:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC) talk (somewhat of a renegade software engineering grad student...)
Thanks for the welcome message Allan. I am a newbie in wikipedia with little spare time but I am intending to at least contribute to the discussions. Takhisis 01:32, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I noticed you identified yourself as a Wikipedian in New Zealand. You may be interested in New Zealander-Israeli relations. Respectfully, Republitarian 23:33, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi Allan,
Reference to your last edit comment for Career domains in computer science, you have used phrase 'peacock words'. From the 'diff', I can make out what you mean. However, when I looked up the phrase at www.m-w.com, could not find it. Is it a local lingo/ slang? Just curious... -- Raanoo 08:42, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I wonder if I could get your input at Talk:Eiffel programming language#What code formatting convention should be used?. It turns out that Bertrand Meyer has been doing a lot of work on the article, which seems to be mostly a good thing—the content has certainly been enhanced significantly. However, it's still a bit of a mixed bag. There is lots of good content he's added, but the tone of him writing about "his baby" is slightly off. Not terrible though.
The narrow issue I would like your opinion on is the article use of what is apparently an idiosyncracy about how Eiffel documentation formats code samples. Meyer takes the somewhat silly position that doing it differently than his company, Eiffel Software, does would "misrepresent the language". I personally would really like it to follow conventions of other PL articles, at least as a direction... well, you can seen the discussion at the link (I put an narrow article RfC to try to get comments on the issue too). LotLE× talk 07:14, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I've been listening in on the Functional Programming entry for the past couple months now. You'll probably see more contributions in the future. Just to fill you in on my own background. I've been working with the storage and analysis of time series data for the past 15 years or so. My interest in functional program stems from my initial attempts to learn K about four years ago. I found the language incredibly hard and completely alien to the way I'd been programming. That's when I began to do research into Lisp, APL and later functional programming in general, which was essential to gaining a clear understanding of what K was about. More recently I've been creating materials for teaching a course in K and consequently been doing more extensive research into functional programming.
I have some strong opinions which I'm guessing differ a bit from your own take as well as LotLE, but I think it will be productive all around. Abcarter 19:17, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused at the process. I explained what my proposed changes were, answers objections and waited for replies. After getting none I went ahead. Six minutes later LotLE complete reverts. He objects to my intro sentence. He may well have a point, but I did give an explanation in the discussion section and wondering why he doesn't simply make a change rather than revert the entire set of changes I made. This isn't a complaint so much as a query about whether this is the usual procedure. Abcarter 17:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I have a few objections to your WSN page edits. It seems like you have cleared up the external links (which is a good thing), but i think that you have cleared up a bit too much. The commercial companies links had to go - i agree. But why are the following links removed?
The reason you are giving is "rm commercial links, blogs, foreign language links:"
TinyOS is a non-commercial open-source operating system and that website is NOT a blog. TinyOS is the basic building block of sensor networks. tinyos.net is the FIRST website that a person not familiar with sensor networks is reffered to and it has a lot of very helpful resources.
The Sensor Network Museum is an effort to collect information about various sensor node hardware platforms. Its the most extensive resource available on sensor network hardwares (not pertaining to any one specific platform but doing a nice breadth and depth wise search of ALL platforms proposed so far). There is a section on "hardware" in the WSN article and this resource is the natural next step for readers interested in further links on sensor network hardware.
MAC Protocol Soup: Again, the most comprehensive listings of MAC protocols in sensor networks. There are a *lot* of MAC protocols for sensor networks outthere and this is the most extensive study done on MAC protocols in "trying to make sense out of it all".
I am a sensor networks researcher and been working in the field for around 3 years now. All the above three links are the most important, impartial, and very useful links which are compiled after years of efforts from various research groups. I am of the opinion that the wikipedia readers should be given links to them (if they want to look for further information).
Please reply on MY talk page as I am sure that I would forget to check this talk page. and thanks for your clearing up effort on the WSN page.
Muneeb.ali 02:03, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the wellcome message, i appreciate it. Regards. Addicted2Sanity 04:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Allan,
I'm new to Wikipedia, from editor's point of view, and I hope I'm correct in editing this page to communicate with you. I will be working actively to update the software architecture page over the next few weeks. Then I'll work on updating other relevant software architectures sub-topics. I was surprised to see the page in such primitive stage. I'm still learning the tools of trade, so I will seek your guidance on proper formatting, etc.
Thanks for communicating and keeping an eye on this page. FirebrandCK. Firebrandck 05:17, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Looking forward to working with you in the near future ... Firebrandck 18:13, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for formatting my edits. I will use your augmentation of my references as examples as I move forward. I'm also planning to introduce new sections down the line... Thanks again! Firebrandck 20:49, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi there! Thanks for welcoming me to WikiProject CS! NerdyNSK 18:02, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
wvbailey here: I don't know what to make of what has been going on relative to that article. Probably in response to "anonymous", "Krauss" created the page yesterday, then I corrected the English and added to it -- all of the in-line citations, plus the syntax, the justification for the mnemonic-choice etc. (RE the article history). But all of this has been going on because of "anonymous"'s insistence. Go to the discussion on the Register machine discussion page to see what a mess this has been since "anonymous" appeared. (Recently I split the Counter machine page off from Register machine so most of the talk appears on the reg-mach discussion page.) Some of what "anonymous" suggested is a good idea -- to define a simple syntax so a comparison of the models is easier. But, for example, the creation of the "RefLib" strikes me as (maybe) going too far in the NOR direction, I can't tell. Because of his persistence it feels like "anon" is having me write chapters in his wiki-book, or something. I need a bit of perspective here: any advice or suggestions would be welcome. Thanks, wvbailey Wvbailey 13:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
This is my worry too. But the syntax thing has been very helpful, i.e the stuff that looks like:
This is verbatim from the text Boolos-Burgess-Jeffrey (2002) and very close to Minsky (1967). But whether we can use this syntax to explain, for comparison purposes, the models on Counter machine models, I dunno, would the use of this syntax be OR? And also helpful has been Krauss's insistence on a standardized use of mnemonics as functions such as INC(r) or JZ(r,z). Please comment.
For sure it is true that many examples in the two texts are there -- how to build new functions from the base functions, in a manner similar to the table. But I am uncomfortable with the RefLib. Krauss will put up a fight and be disappointed, I think. Is there some way around this? I know in the past other wiki-folk have tried to come up with a standardized computer "language" (some sort or other), and failed. If you know of a "successful article" in this regard, please point me there. Or if you know of some other advisors who can render opinions, please do. (I don't know of any). We could vote, for example. Thanks.
This OR thing is hard: we can never know all "the literature", often what I think is OR turns out to be out there somewhere. But I've had a lot of experience with patent law, and there is a similar problem there too -- lawyers make fortunes off the disputes.
Also, given that the article survives, how do we fix its name? Thanks, wvbailey Wvbailey 15:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Hey thanks! Good to see another UC alumnus on Wikipedia!-- James Bond 22:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Allen, I've been doing some work on the K language entry. Based on a suggestion I've merged the entry on KDB into the K entry. No problem with any of this, and in general have a fairly clear idea of what I want to add in regards to KDB. Here's my problem. Is KDB a relational database? I have two opposing arguments and I consider both problematic. Kx Systems and Arthur Whitney say that it is. I think this is mostly marketing and think that it is not. I have my reasons which I can articulate, the core point being that KDB has no data model, there is no distinction made between a logical description of the data and the way it's physical stored. I know this is my opinion, even if I'm right it's more original research than reference. That's fine, I don't have a lot invested in this, but do I simply take the vendor's word? Understand that I don't think I can simply duck the decision here. Abcarter 22:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi Allan,
You were very helpful in the area of WP conventions before - I am wondering if you could give some guidance: I have been told that I can improve this article by adding citing articles to Talk:John_Paul_Morrison, so I have added quite a few there (my hand got tired!). There are also several on Flow-based programming. My question is how to tie them together...? My other question is whether you would be willing to add a section on how FBP relates to Actor theory. Thanks. Jpaulm 19:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks very much for your vote, Allan. I understand and agree that I should not edit the article myself - do you have any ideas about what should be done with the references in Talk:John_Paul_Morrison... and who might do it? Also, my request about Actor theory still stands! Jpaulm 02:20, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
You are invited to Auckland Meetup 2 on the afternoon of Saturday February 10th 2007 at Galbraith's Ale House in Mt Eden. Please see Wikipedia:Meetup/Auckland 2 for details. You can also bookmark Wikipedia:Meetup/Auckland to be informed of future NZ meetups. - SimonLyall 06:46, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
How can I recommend that a particular user be blocked? Tparameter 05:34, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Regarding this edit: [1]...please don't mark an article that's clearly bad or designed to create a link to a website as a copyvio. Mark it as bad or spam above all else. Copyvio only causes the source to provide us with an email permitting its use, and then we have to go through the motions of getting rid of the garbage all over again. Thanks! Bastiq▼e demandez 15:48, 17 February 2007 (UTC)