User talk:Aatomic1/Sandbox
The official policy of Wiki is WP:NOT#memorial:
I believe the inclusion of a list breaks neither the spirit nor the letter of this policy.
These people were neither friends or relatives of mine.
The subject of the article is the Birmingham pub bombings and not The Victims of the Birmingham pub Bombings. Notability guidelines...do not specifically regulate the content of articles
What is my motivation for adding the list.
(1) It is not as a memorial to these people; it is to ensure a thoroughly balanced coverage of the event. In this particular article there were another set of victims namely the Birmingham Six (B6). I have (and wish to continue) to expand B6 and the many forks such as Griess test. However for truly balanced coverage it is right that the names of direct 'other' victims are available to the reader; there were over 180 bomb victims; there were 21 dead. No one is trying to add a list of 201 names. Everyone knows where to draw the line.
(2) BB has provided a list of articles without a list (just shows how useful lists can be). WP:NOT MEMORIAL is not the reason for non inclusion. The reason is that either the information is not available or that no one has cared to add the list. What would be more pertinant is where a list of the dead has been removed, either by consensus or as an application of wiki policy.
(3) BB holds up the below as exemplary ways to handle lists of victims
(4) I would further add that I am quite happy to expand the list into a narrative, as and when, verifiable references become available. I already have some verifiable bomb victim time-line stories. Others such as the storey below have not been verified.
(5) An urban myth I have heard is that, following the bombing a certain Irish man was off work for a while. In the then atmosphere of anti-Irishness his workmates suspected him of being a bomber and, on his return to work he was given a kicking. The real story was that his two sons had been killed in the explosions.
Reason
User talk:Aatomic1/doc User talk:Aatomic1/Sandbox
Other articles do not generally have them. See the categories in , and look at which articles could have a list of dead.
2* Warrington bomb attacks - inline list, but...two victims
2* Nahalat Shiva shooting - list, but...two victims. (Orphaned aricle)
3* 5 February 1992 Urumqi Bombings - no list
3* Admiral Duncan pub - no list
6* World Trade Center bombing - no list
6* The ICRC hospital of Novye Atagi - list of six, but terribly written article to begin with
7* Matsumoto incident - no list
8 * Greysteel massacre - no list
8* 1995 bombings in France - no list
9* 25 February 1997 Urumqi Bus Bombings - no list
10* Shankill Road bombing - pointless list of dead, added by Aatomic1 [2] [3]
12* Sarin gas attack on the Tokyo subway - no list
20* Khobar Towers bombing - list of dead, adds nothing
21* Alas Chiricanas Flight 00901 - no list
21* Tel Aviv bus 5 massacre - no list
24* Wandhama massacre - no list
26* Kizlyar-Pervomayskoye hostage crisis - no list
29* 1992 Israeli Embassy attack in Buenos Aires - no list
30* Cave of the Patriarchs massacre - no list
33* Brahmaputra Mail train bombing - no list
40* Tarata bombing - no list
45* Jerusalem bus 18 massacres - lists for both attacks, make the article look terrible
45* Acteal massacre - list, adds nothing
46* 1998 Coimbatore bombings - no list
51* Marchioness disaster - no list
52* Casualties of the 7 July 2005 London bombings - no list
54* Gonagala massacre - no list
55* Sopore massacre - pointless incomplete list of dead, adds nothing
56* Dehiwala train bombing - no list
62* November 1997 Luxor massacre - no list
85* 1994 AMIA bombing - no list
91 * Central Bank bombing - no list
109* Palliyagodella massacre - no list
120* October 1995 Eastern Sri Lanka massacres - no list
140* Budyonnovsk hospital hostage crisis - no list
168* Oklahoma City bombing - no list
223* 1998 United States embassy bombings - no lists
257* 1993 Bombay bombings - no list
270* Pan Am Flight 103 - brief inline breakdowns
300* Russian apartment bombings - no lists
400* Massacre of police officers in Eastern Sri Lanka in June 1990 - no list
Pan Am Flight 103 and Oklahoma City bombing show the best way to handle lists of victims, an inline breakdown of who they were. A list of names is pointless.
Aatomic1 Notes
In principle, the addition of sourced material to the article can occur at anytime, subject to consensus on the article talk page [5]
I don't see the problem with inserting lists of the dead into the articles. I looked randomly at a few other terrorism-related articles, and found plenty with such lists...- so if we're going to remove lists of people killed in incidents (terrorism-related or whatever), then that has to extend everywhere and would involve the deletion of entire articles (i.e. List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre). [7]
The list fails
Brixton Busters 18:57, 20 August 2007 annoted by aatomic1
Brixton Busters 19:04, 20 August 2007 annoted by aatomic1
(added by BigDunc - noted by aatomic1)
I confirm I am happy to try Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-08-24 Birmingham pub bombings. Aatomic1 18:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
( User:Dreamafter/Mediation Notes)
One death is a tragedy; a million is a statistic. (Joseph Stalin) [29]
WP:NNC is quite clearly inclusionist in tone [3]:
Notability guidelines do not directly limit article content [30]
Trivia ‘’A selectively populated list with a narrow theme is not necessarily trivia, and can be the best way to present some types of information’’.
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
User talk:Aatomic1/Sandbox
The official policy of Wiki is WP:NOT#memorial:
I believe the inclusion of a list breaks neither the spirit nor the letter of this policy.
These people were neither friends or relatives of mine.
The subject of the article is the Birmingham pub bombings and not The Victims of the Birmingham pub Bombings. Notability guidelines...do not specifically regulate the content of articles
What is my motivation for adding the list.
(1) It is not as a memorial to these people; it is to ensure a thoroughly balanced coverage of the event. In this particular article there were another set of victims namely the Birmingham Six (B6). I have (and wish to continue) to expand B6 and the many forks such as Griess test. However for truly balanced coverage it is right that the names of direct 'other' victims are available to the reader; there were over 180 bomb victims; there were 21 dead. No one is trying to add a list of 201 names. Everyone knows where to draw the line.
(2) BB has provided a list of articles without a list (just shows how useful lists can be). WP:NOT MEMORIAL is not the reason for non inclusion. The reason is that either the information is not available or that no one has cared to add the list. What would be more pertinant is where a list of the dead has been removed, either by consensus or as an application of wiki policy.
(3) BB holds up the below as exemplary ways to handle lists of victims
(4) I would further add that I am quite happy to expand the list into a narrative, as and when, verifiable references become available. I already have some verifiable bomb victim time-line stories. Others such as the storey below have not been verified.
(5) An urban myth I have heard is that, following the bombing a certain Irish man was off work for a while. In the then atmosphere of anti-Irishness his workmates suspected him of being a bomber and, on his return to work he was given a kicking. The real story was that his two sons had been killed in the explosions.
Reason
User talk:Aatomic1/doc User talk:Aatomic1/Sandbox
Other articles do not generally have them. See the categories in , and look at which articles could have a list of dead.
2* Warrington bomb attacks - inline list, but...two victims
2* Nahalat Shiva shooting - list, but...two victims. (Orphaned aricle)
3* 5 February 1992 Urumqi Bombings - no list
3* Admiral Duncan pub - no list
6* World Trade Center bombing - no list
6* The ICRC hospital of Novye Atagi - list of six, but terribly written article to begin with
7* Matsumoto incident - no list
8 * Greysteel massacre - no list
8* 1995 bombings in France - no list
9* 25 February 1997 Urumqi Bus Bombings - no list
10* Shankill Road bombing - pointless list of dead, added by Aatomic1 [2] [3]
12* Sarin gas attack on the Tokyo subway - no list
20* Khobar Towers bombing - list of dead, adds nothing
21* Alas Chiricanas Flight 00901 - no list
21* Tel Aviv bus 5 massacre - no list
24* Wandhama massacre - no list
26* Kizlyar-Pervomayskoye hostage crisis - no list
29* 1992 Israeli Embassy attack in Buenos Aires - no list
30* Cave of the Patriarchs massacre - no list
33* Brahmaputra Mail train bombing - no list
40* Tarata bombing - no list
45* Jerusalem bus 18 massacres - lists for both attacks, make the article look terrible
45* Acteal massacre - list, adds nothing
46* 1998 Coimbatore bombings - no list
51* Marchioness disaster - no list
52* Casualties of the 7 July 2005 London bombings - no list
54* Gonagala massacre - no list
55* Sopore massacre - pointless incomplete list of dead, adds nothing
56* Dehiwala train bombing - no list
62* November 1997 Luxor massacre - no list
85* 1994 AMIA bombing - no list
91 * Central Bank bombing - no list
109* Palliyagodella massacre - no list
120* October 1995 Eastern Sri Lanka massacres - no list
140* Budyonnovsk hospital hostage crisis - no list
168* Oklahoma City bombing - no list
223* 1998 United States embassy bombings - no lists
257* 1993 Bombay bombings - no list
270* Pan Am Flight 103 - brief inline breakdowns
300* Russian apartment bombings - no lists
400* Massacre of police officers in Eastern Sri Lanka in June 1990 - no list
Pan Am Flight 103 and Oklahoma City bombing show the best way to handle lists of victims, an inline breakdown of who they were. A list of names is pointless.
Aatomic1 Notes
In principle, the addition of sourced material to the article can occur at anytime, subject to consensus on the article talk page [5]
I don't see the problem with inserting lists of the dead into the articles. I looked randomly at a few other terrorism-related articles, and found plenty with such lists...- so if we're going to remove lists of people killed in incidents (terrorism-related or whatever), then that has to extend everywhere and would involve the deletion of entire articles (i.e. List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre). [7]
The list fails
Brixton Busters 18:57, 20 August 2007 annoted by aatomic1
Brixton Busters 19:04, 20 August 2007 annoted by aatomic1
(added by BigDunc - noted by aatomic1)
I confirm I am happy to try Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-08-24 Birmingham pub bombings. Aatomic1 18:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
( User:Dreamafter/Mediation Notes)
One death is a tragedy; a million is a statistic. (Joseph Stalin) [29]
WP:NNC is quite clearly inclusionist in tone [3]:
Notability guidelines do not directly limit article content [30]
Trivia ‘’A selectively populated list with a narrow theme is not necessarily trivia, and can be the best way to present some types of information’’.
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)