My previous login name was Lumiere (archived talk page). Recently, I also used the login name User:Étincelle, but not anymore.
Lumiere/Etincelle, practically no useful discussion has been possible for weeks on these talk pages because of your input. These are important policy pages and editors have to be free to discuss them without having you (deliberately, it seems to me) obfuscating every issue. If you're not doing it deliberately, then I apologize most sincerely for writing to you in this way, but I'm not sure what else to do. As Lumiere and as Étincelle, you have contributed more to policy talk pages than to the encyclopedia, and yet you must realize you have little chance of understanding our policies, or of making useful contributions to them, until you have experience of actually editing the encyclopedia, and preferably substantial experience. I'm therefore writing to request that you stop editing the talk pages of WP:NOR and WP:V for a few weeks (and other policy talk pages if you're doing the same elsewhere) until you've gained more editing experience. Once again, I am truly very sorry if your intention is, in fact, to contribute constructively to those pages. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:39, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I need to collect some information about this situation. I will get back to you. -Lumière 00:35, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I must say I do have trouble following your attempts to clarify what you mean. I think you should hold off further discussion/ clarifications on such policy questions, until consensus is reached as to whether you will retain the privilege to edit policy pages. In this specific case, you may be up against the language disconnection again: I had no problem with your use of the word "sourced"; I was explaining that the nutshell does not deal with the specifics of sourcing. The requirement to have a published source is already there: it says, "Articles may not contain any unpublished..." and then a list of what things may not be included. "Unpublished", in this instance, refers to each item in the list. — Leflyman Talk 02:15, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Of course, I did understand that. So, I think that you were lost because you missed my point. My point is simply that "novel syntheses" should not be in the list (of unpublished material to exclude). The policy, as stated by Jimbo Wells, says that unpublished syntheses that amount to a novel narration or interpretation should be excluded. So, not all unpublished syntheses should be excluded. SlimVirgin suggested that we exclude unpublished novel synthesis that advance a position. Someone else, perhaps you, suggested that we directly state that "article should not promote a novel synthesis". None of these two options even approximate the notion that only (unpublished) syntheses that amount to a novel narrative or interpretation should be excluded. You know that a synthesis is just an integration of different components into a whole. In our case, the components are the individual items that each have a source. I think the important is that a synthesis is not original research unless in the process of intergrating these components we add some new interpretations, analysis or evaluations of these components. Isn't it obvious that if we just integrate these compoments (without adding any new interpretation, etc.), we are just doing what we should normally do when we write a WP article. Do you agree with this? If yes, this is a key point that should be communicated: a synthesis per se is not original research. I cannot believe that I am being asked to stop posting in the policy page because of a problem of communication. I think Harald88 understood me well. So, if one understood me, it means that it was not so bad. -Lumière 03:13, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, I don't understand that this can be so disruptive that others cannot work. This makes no sense. I don't post that much. I will certainly accept to make sure that I keep the total length of my posts clearly below the average (total lenght of the page / number of editors with significant contributions). As far as being hard to understand is concerned, I don't mind that those who don't understand do not reply. Some do understand me. Otherwise, I would stop to post by myself. Also, it does not take a Ph.D. to understand the policy. Also, I do have enough practice to understand the essence of the problem. -Lumière 03:36, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
With all due respect, I disagree that I do not have enough practice to understand the main purpose of the policy and to know how it can be useful (or can fail to be useful). I hope that I have still the right to disagree and express my opinion. I think that, exactly because I have a different perspective, I can contribute to an healthy situation in Wikipedia where divergent opinions are integrated into a better whole. -Lumière 04:40, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
As far as changing the ratio is concerned, here is the situation. I think it is useless to work on the controversial topics that interest me because the system does not work for these topics. It is a complete lost of time. I understand that I am not alone in this situation. Some of the editors in this situation are new editors but some are also old editors. We are considered POV pushers that attempt to change the policy to push their view. This is the perspective of those who are happy with the system because of the nature of their views. I know that you do not say that I will be blocked from editing the V and NOR policy talk pages because of that, but I just wanted to explain the context. Therefore, I would like to work with you on the policy so that I can explain the problem that I see and perhaps we can improve the situation together. Please, do not take the hard perspective that I am just a POV pusher that try to break the law or something like that. Instead, take the nicer and more open attitude that I am an editor that has its own perspective on a problem and would like to work with others to improve the situation. I do not want to break any policy. I do not use any form of violence. I just want the opportunity to discuss my view with others that are interested in the policy talk pages. This is very healthy. Please do not suppress my opinions as if you were a totalitarian organisation, which must suppress opinions to protect its existence. -Lumière 05:16, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments. You have given me a lot to think about, as have Slim Virgin and others. Your initial comment that WP:V is the wrong place for this is probably correct. The issue I am trying to raise is not whether the source is verifiable (in the Wikipedia sense), but what are the limits of reliability.
To take the extreme case, I believe that most obituaries are not fact-checked, but are printed as submitted by the family as a courtesy. Thus, an obit printed in the Times without a byline should not be considered a reliable source. Similarly, most medium-sized papers have a specific part of the business section in which press releases are printed pretty much as received. One can prove this to a reasonable certainty simply by comparing other papers -- if they have the same text, either they are plagarizing or they have a single unacknowledged source. Since wire services and syndicated columnists are acknowledged, that pretty much leaves a press release. I believe that conclusion to be reliable and based on verifiable evidence.
On the other hand, making too much of this sort of thing could lead to abuses that may be worse than the simple stupidities that got me thinking about this. I have no idea of your politics, having not edited with you, and it might well be that in a practical case, we could find ourselves on opposite sides of this. That would be ironic. I want to give this some more thought. Thanks again. Robert A.West ( Talk) 22:11, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Please don't take conversations with a third party to other people's talk pages, particularly not as means of disparaging the talk page owner. The best place for conversations with a person is on that person's talk page. Thank you. -- BillC 18:48, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
You are really a friend of Mr. Skolnick. However, my objective was not to disparage anyone. I just spontaneously welcomed back Julio, and wanted to give him an advice with regard to personal attacks that he may receive. It was so spontaneous that I just followed the link from my watchlist without considering what was the target page. Anyway, the situation is similar as when you visit a friend and meet another old friend there. You will chat with him even if it is in the house of another friend. I don't see Mr. Skolnick as my enemy, but it is obvious for every one that he does personal attacks. -Lumière 19:32, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Synthesis also means "deduction from the general to the particular", which is its use in his case. I am not using it in the sense you quote, which is a specialized technical sense. I meant exactly what I wrote. The term refers back to its use in the WP:NOR policy prohibiting " new analysis or synthesis of published data" -- Gnetwerker 02:31, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
The meaning of synthesis that you use is only used in logic. It is synonymous to deductive reasoning. I challenge you to give me one usage of synthesis in a reputable source where it has this meaning outside of a mathematical context. Also, the meaning of "synthesis" that I use is not technical at all: it is its most common meaning. It is your meaning that is highly specialised, not mine. The technical expression "movie synthesis" is perfectly in accord with the common meaning of synthesis. Moreover, the usual meaning of "synthesis of data" is of course the usual scientific process that integrates disparate data into one or few laws, which is not a deductive reasoning at all. We can logically explain the data from the laws, but not the other way around. Synthesis of data can also means any form of integration of this data into a whole. -Lumière 03:43, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
From the WP:NOR Talk page: Webster's New World Dictionary: synthesis ... deductive reasoning, from the simple elements of thought into the complex whole, from cause to effect, from a principle to its application, etc. There is no mention of movies in any dictionary definition I can find (in English, at least). -- Gnetwerker 21:17, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
You are correct, that Jimbo Wales' quote regarding importance, gives an indication of absolute significance, and not relative (or comparative) significance. -- Iantresman 10:30, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi Lumiere, I had not given the NOR discussions much attention lately, and I now see that there were discussions in which others pushed their opinion without listening to yours, so that now there is a policy page that reflects the opinion of a few people, without real consensus. Not good. Do you know how to bring this to the attention of a wider audience? Harald88 19:50, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Lumiere, I see your policy talk-page comments are creeping up in number again. [9] I appreciate very much that you cut down on the NOR and V contributions, but it's still happening on the NPOV talk page. Could I ask you again please to take a complete break from all the policy talk pages for a few weeks? SlimVirgin (talk) 05:40, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
The following analysis is an attempt to interpret the three points below under the assumption that they are from Jimbo Wales. It was written before a useful clarification from Iantresman about the fact that these three points are actually not from Jimbo Wales, but they constitute only a paraphrase of a post of Jimbo Wales. Therefore, this analysis is somehow obsolete because it was made under the wrong assumption. If these three points are not from Jimbo Wales, then their purpose could be anything. I should not even try to figure out what was the intention of the editors who "paraphrased" Jimbo with these three points. -Lumière 03:35, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
We will only consider the three categories that are defined in the last part of each of the three sentences. The first category contains the view that are "subtanciated with reference to commonly accepted reference texts". The second category contains the view with "easy to name prominent adherents". In my proposal, we would say that a view is "significant" if it belongs to the first or the second category. I propose such a definition of significance as an inclusion criteria in a given article. The third category contains what remains, the insignificant views. Even a view that is "insignificant" is acceptable in its own separate article, if it is verifiable.
The expression "significant" can be replaced by something else, though its use here is consistent with the introductory sentence: "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints, in proportion to the prominence of each". Its use is also consistent with some discussions in the NPOV talk page. An alternative to "significant" is "sufficiently prominent", which is also consistent with this introductory sentence, but then "significant" remains undefined.
What I would like to emphasis is that the expression "in the majority" should never be interpreted to exclude a view that is "substanciated with a reference to to commonly accepted reference texts" such as a reputable peer-reviewed journal. Obviously, the expression "in the majority" does not mean that the view must be held by the majority. The majority of what? In practice, it means that the view is substanciated in reference texts that are "commonly accepted". -Lumière 21:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
-- MonkeeSage ☺ 21:21, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
We should also consider how the following quote fits in the big picture:
I would say that it is about the fact that views in the first category might be not so important and only held by a few thousand people, but yet they are significant, which means sufficiently prominent for inclusion in an article. It intuitively belongs to the first category because of the "no one would serious question that it is valid material for an encyclopedia". I think that it is a mistake to consider that all views in the first category are neccessarily important. However, they might be more "prominent" than those in the second category. After all, if a view did not get published in "commonly accepted" reference texts, it must be that it is really not important. -Lumière 22:22, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Requests for comment/-Lumière FeloniousMonk 23:01, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I wish I could help you, but I really don't have the time to get involved in both battles. Still, I recommend contacting the AMA and see if anyone else can help you. Other than that, I can't guarantee my involvement. Yes, I agree that being told you can't oppose policy too much is a crock of shit. There's lots of crappy and abused policies and guidelines creeping around lately. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ ( AMA) 23:05, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I'll be away for few days. -Lumière 02:16, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I haven't really read your comments on the policy talk pages. I'm just basing my comments on the case presented on WP:RfC. I suggest, without meaning to be snarky, that you post your view of the dispute in the Response Section. Ragout 05:40, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I have added my defence of you to the page. I hope it does some good.-- Light current 20:26, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I've been contributing to discussions recently at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy). I would encourage you to come along as well and discuss topics people bring up, as well as present your ideas about policy changes. It is a wide-ranging forum and I think you would fit in well enough there. — Saxifrage ✎ 21:22, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't know why, but someone is trolling me in your name. They are a strange little bunny, but they're at least amusing me. I thought you should know, because someone trolling me in my name could get you in trouble if someone were to jump to conclusions. I just want to say for the record that I don't think it's you—they write very differently—and let you know that the comedy is unfolding on my talk page at User talk:Saxifrage#A troll in Étincelle's name if you want to watch. Cheers! — Saxifrage ✎ 21:52, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
My previous login name was Lumiere (archived talk page). Recently, I also used the login name User:Étincelle, but not anymore.
Lumiere/Etincelle, practically no useful discussion has been possible for weeks on these talk pages because of your input. These are important policy pages and editors have to be free to discuss them without having you (deliberately, it seems to me) obfuscating every issue. If you're not doing it deliberately, then I apologize most sincerely for writing to you in this way, but I'm not sure what else to do. As Lumiere and as Étincelle, you have contributed more to policy talk pages than to the encyclopedia, and yet you must realize you have little chance of understanding our policies, or of making useful contributions to them, until you have experience of actually editing the encyclopedia, and preferably substantial experience. I'm therefore writing to request that you stop editing the talk pages of WP:NOR and WP:V for a few weeks (and other policy talk pages if you're doing the same elsewhere) until you've gained more editing experience. Once again, I am truly very sorry if your intention is, in fact, to contribute constructively to those pages. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:39, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I need to collect some information about this situation. I will get back to you. -Lumière 00:35, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I must say I do have trouble following your attempts to clarify what you mean. I think you should hold off further discussion/ clarifications on such policy questions, until consensus is reached as to whether you will retain the privilege to edit policy pages. In this specific case, you may be up against the language disconnection again: I had no problem with your use of the word "sourced"; I was explaining that the nutshell does not deal with the specifics of sourcing. The requirement to have a published source is already there: it says, "Articles may not contain any unpublished..." and then a list of what things may not be included. "Unpublished", in this instance, refers to each item in the list. — Leflyman Talk 02:15, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Of course, I did understand that. So, I think that you were lost because you missed my point. My point is simply that "novel syntheses" should not be in the list (of unpublished material to exclude). The policy, as stated by Jimbo Wells, says that unpublished syntheses that amount to a novel narration or interpretation should be excluded. So, not all unpublished syntheses should be excluded. SlimVirgin suggested that we exclude unpublished novel synthesis that advance a position. Someone else, perhaps you, suggested that we directly state that "article should not promote a novel synthesis". None of these two options even approximate the notion that only (unpublished) syntheses that amount to a novel narrative or interpretation should be excluded. You know that a synthesis is just an integration of different components into a whole. In our case, the components are the individual items that each have a source. I think the important is that a synthesis is not original research unless in the process of intergrating these components we add some new interpretations, analysis or evaluations of these components. Isn't it obvious that if we just integrate these compoments (without adding any new interpretation, etc.), we are just doing what we should normally do when we write a WP article. Do you agree with this? If yes, this is a key point that should be communicated: a synthesis per se is not original research. I cannot believe that I am being asked to stop posting in the policy page because of a problem of communication. I think Harald88 understood me well. So, if one understood me, it means that it was not so bad. -Lumière 03:13, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, I don't understand that this can be so disruptive that others cannot work. This makes no sense. I don't post that much. I will certainly accept to make sure that I keep the total length of my posts clearly below the average (total lenght of the page / number of editors with significant contributions). As far as being hard to understand is concerned, I don't mind that those who don't understand do not reply. Some do understand me. Otherwise, I would stop to post by myself. Also, it does not take a Ph.D. to understand the policy. Also, I do have enough practice to understand the essence of the problem. -Lumière 03:36, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
With all due respect, I disagree that I do not have enough practice to understand the main purpose of the policy and to know how it can be useful (or can fail to be useful). I hope that I have still the right to disagree and express my opinion. I think that, exactly because I have a different perspective, I can contribute to an healthy situation in Wikipedia where divergent opinions are integrated into a better whole. -Lumière 04:40, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
As far as changing the ratio is concerned, here is the situation. I think it is useless to work on the controversial topics that interest me because the system does not work for these topics. It is a complete lost of time. I understand that I am not alone in this situation. Some of the editors in this situation are new editors but some are also old editors. We are considered POV pushers that attempt to change the policy to push their view. This is the perspective of those who are happy with the system because of the nature of their views. I know that you do not say that I will be blocked from editing the V and NOR policy talk pages because of that, but I just wanted to explain the context. Therefore, I would like to work with you on the policy so that I can explain the problem that I see and perhaps we can improve the situation together. Please, do not take the hard perspective that I am just a POV pusher that try to break the law or something like that. Instead, take the nicer and more open attitude that I am an editor that has its own perspective on a problem and would like to work with others to improve the situation. I do not want to break any policy. I do not use any form of violence. I just want the opportunity to discuss my view with others that are interested in the policy talk pages. This is very healthy. Please do not suppress my opinions as if you were a totalitarian organisation, which must suppress opinions to protect its existence. -Lumière 05:16, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments. You have given me a lot to think about, as have Slim Virgin and others. Your initial comment that WP:V is the wrong place for this is probably correct. The issue I am trying to raise is not whether the source is verifiable (in the Wikipedia sense), but what are the limits of reliability.
To take the extreme case, I believe that most obituaries are not fact-checked, but are printed as submitted by the family as a courtesy. Thus, an obit printed in the Times without a byline should not be considered a reliable source. Similarly, most medium-sized papers have a specific part of the business section in which press releases are printed pretty much as received. One can prove this to a reasonable certainty simply by comparing other papers -- if they have the same text, either they are plagarizing or they have a single unacknowledged source. Since wire services and syndicated columnists are acknowledged, that pretty much leaves a press release. I believe that conclusion to be reliable and based on verifiable evidence.
On the other hand, making too much of this sort of thing could lead to abuses that may be worse than the simple stupidities that got me thinking about this. I have no idea of your politics, having not edited with you, and it might well be that in a practical case, we could find ourselves on opposite sides of this. That would be ironic. I want to give this some more thought. Thanks again. Robert A.West ( Talk) 22:11, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Please don't take conversations with a third party to other people's talk pages, particularly not as means of disparaging the talk page owner. The best place for conversations with a person is on that person's talk page. Thank you. -- BillC 18:48, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
You are really a friend of Mr. Skolnick. However, my objective was not to disparage anyone. I just spontaneously welcomed back Julio, and wanted to give him an advice with regard to personal attacks that he may receive. It was so spontaneous that I just followed the link from my watchlist without considering what was the target page. Anyway, the situation is similar as when you visit a friend and meet another old friend there. You will chat with him even if it is in the house of another friend. I don't see Mr. Skolnick as my enemy, but it is obvious for every one that he does personal attacks. -Lumière 19:32, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Synthesis also means "deduction from the general to the particular", which is its use in his case. I am not using it in the sense you quote, which is a specialized technical sense. I meant exactly what I wrote. The term refers back to its use in the WP:NOR policy prohibiting " new analysis or synthesis of published data" -- Gnetwerker 02:31, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
The meaning of synthesis that you use is only used in logic. It is synonymous to deductive reasoning. I challenge you to give me one usage of synthesis in a reputable source where it has this meaning outside of a mathematical context. Also, the meaning of "synthesis" that I use is not technical at all: it is its most common meaning. It is your meaning that is highly specialised, not mine. The technical expression "movie synthesis" is perfectly in accord with the common meaning of synthesis. Moreover, the usual meaning of "synthesis of data" is of course the usual scientific process that integrates disparate data into one or few laws, which is not a deductive reasoning at all. We can logically explain the data from the laws, but not the other way around. Synthesis of data can also means any form of integration of this data into a whole. -Lumière 03:43, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
From the WP:NOR Talk page: Webster's New World Dictionary: synthesis ... deductive reasoning, from the simple elements of thought into the complex whole, from cause to effect, from a principle to its application, etc. There is no mention of movies in any dictionary definition I can find (in English, at least). -- Gnetwerker 21:17, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
You are correct, that Jimbo Wales' quote regarding importance, gives an indication of absolute significance, and not relative (or comparative) significance. -- Iantresman 10:30, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi Lumiere, I had not given the NOR discussions much attention lately, and I now see that there were discussions in which others pushed their opinion without listening to yours, so that now there is a policy page that reflects the opinion of a few people, without real consensus. Not good. Do you know how to bring this to the attention of a wider audience? Harald88 19:50, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Lumiere, I see your policy talk-page comments are creeping up in number again. [9] I appreciate very much that you cut down on the NOR and V contributions, but it's still happening on the NPOV talk page. Could I ask you again please to take a complete break from all the policy talk pages for a few weeks? SlimVirgin (talk) 05:40, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
The following analysis is an attempt to interpret the three points below under the assumption that they are from Jimbo Wales. It was written before a useful clarification from Iantresman about the fact that these three points are actually not from Jimbo Wales, but they constitute only a paraphrase of a post of Jimbo Wales. Therefore, this analysis is somehow obsolete because it was made under the wrong assumption. If these three points are not from Jimbo Wales, then their purpose could be anything. I should not even try to figure out what was the intention of the editors who "paraphrased" Jimbo with these three points. -Lumière 03:35, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
We will only consider the three categories that are defined in the last part of each of the three sentences. The first category contains the view that are "subtanciated with reference to commonly accepted reference texts". The second category contains the view with "easy to name prominent adherents". In my proposal, we would say that a view is "significant" if it belongs to the first or the second category. I propose such a definition of significance as an inclusion criteria in a given article. The third category contains what remains, the insignificant views. Even a view that is "insignificant" is acceptable in its own separate article, if it is verifiable.
The expression "significant" can be replaced by something else, though its use here is consistent with the introductory sentence: "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints, in proportion to the prominence of each". Its use is also consistent with some discussions in the NPOV talk page. An alternative to "significant" is "sufficiently prominent", which is also consistent with this introductory sentence, but then "significant" remains undefined.
What I would like to emphasis is that the expression "in the majority" should never be interpreted to exclude a view that is "substanciated with a reference to to commonly accepted reference texts" such as a reputable peer-reviewed journal. Obviously, the expression "in the majority" does not mean that the view must be held by the majority. The majority of what? In practice, it means that the view is substanciated in reference texts that are "commonly accepted". -Lumière 21:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
-- MonkeeSage ☺ 21:21, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
We should also consider how the following quote fits in the big picture:
I would say that it is about the fact that views in the first category might be not so important and only held by a few thousand people, but yet they are significant, which means sufficiently prominent for inclusion in an article. It intuitively belongs to the first category because of the "no one would serious question that it is valid material for an encyclopedia". I think that it is a mistake to consider that all views in the first category are neccessarily important. However, they might be more "prominent" than those in the second category. After all, if a view did not get published in "commonly accepted" reference texts, it must be that it is really not important. -Lumière 22:22, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Requests for comment/-Lumière FeloniousMonk 23:01, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I wish I could help you, but I really don't have the time to get involved in both battles. Still, I recommend contacting the AMA and see if anyone else can help you. Other than that, I can't guarantee my involvement. Yes, I agree that being told you can't oppose policy too much is a crock of shit. There's lots of crappy and abused policies and guidelines creeping around lately. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ ( AMA) 23:05, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I'll be away for few days. -Lumière 02:16, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I haven't really read your comments on the policy talk pages. I'm just basing my comments on the case presented on WP:RfC. I suggest, without meaning to be snarky, that you post your view of the dispute in the Response Section. Ragout 05:40, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I have added my defence of you to the page. I hope it does some good.-- Light current 20:26, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I've been contributing to discussions recently at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy). I would encourage you to come along as well and discuss topics people bring up, as well as present your ideas about policy changes. It is a wide-ranging forum and I think you would fit in well enough there. — Saxifrage ✎ 21:22, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't know why, but someone is trolling me in your name. They are a strange little bunny, but they're at least amusing me. I thought you should know, because someone trolling me in my name could get you in trouble if someone were to jump to conclusions. I just want to say for the record that I don't think it's you—they write very differently—and let you know that the comedy is unfolding on my talk page at User talk:Saxifrage#A troll in Étincelle's name if you want to watch. Cheers! — Saxifrage ✎ 21:52, 28 April 2006 (UTC)