Adrian ( talk) 00:06, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Hello, I have found another source, I would like to hear your input on this matter. Greetings.
Adrian (
talk) 18:57, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
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Hi! Please consider adding new, sourced articles (within 5 days of creation or 5x expansion) to the Wikipedia:Did you know, in order to enlight the community about your articles! If you have any questions, please ask me or Antidiskriminator. Thank you.-- Zoupan 15:57, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
Please comment the content, not the contributor. Comments like this are unacceptable. Please consider not doing this in future.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 22:09, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
I will. In that moment of false accusements and personal attacks i reacted too quickly. ( Правичност ( talk) 22:24, 9 April 2013 (UTC))
Hello,
I have reverted your edit (about the Serbian language) because in the infobox we add languages that are related to that ethnic group. I don`t believe Serbian is related to Romanian(Vlach) language. If you do, please provide a valid source. They speak Serbian of course, because they live in Serbia but Serbian language is not related to this ethnic group. Example: To add German language to the Serbs infobox? There is a huge number of Serbs speaking the German language but is it related to the Serbian language in any linguistic way? Just because Serbs speak German it doesn`t mean it should be present in the infobox at the Serbs article. Greetings. Adrian ( talk) 11:47, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Official source is the U.S. Census! Blic.rs, krajinaforce.com no official data It's POV. Stop increasing the number of Serbs, and reduce the number of other South Slavs.-- Sokac121 ( talk) 18:40, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Ok. Let`s just focus on the problem. Sokac121 I have noticed your recent edit [3] where you removed Blic source [4] and UsaSerbs [5] source. What is the problem with this sources by you? Why are you changing the higher estimate of the total number of Serbs in the World? Adrian ( talk) 20:26, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
-...But anyways... he gets away with it calling me names and stuff... okay. ( Правичност ( talk) 18:30, 11 April 2013 (UTC))
Right... well this Šufadaj? was it a medieval port inside medieval Serbia (when Durres was under Serbia)? ( Правичност ( talk) 01:27, 14 April 2013 (UTC))
Actually these kind of themes dont quite draw my interest much, idk... give me a few days if i manage to find something new or to decide... in meanwhile.. how about Rudpolph van veen? The famous dutch cook from 24 kitchen, who is slowly getting more popular than jamie oliver? http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolph_van_Veen ( Правичност ( talk) 19:45, 14 April 2013 (UTC))
Very well i will delete my message i dont actually even care much about "nationalist propaganda" which that is by my opinion. I will take a look at those... and shame for Rudolph van Veen, he certainly deserves a place on english wikipedia. Then please do inform me, thank you. ( Правичност ( talk) 20:26, 14 April 2013 (UTC))
Good news. Administrator who deleted the article on Rudolph van Veen approved its creation. I will create it now. Please join me. (remember to read WP:BLP). Do you know how to add his picture?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 06:11, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
G'day Правичност, I've been trying to butt out of the ongoing debacle with the total number of Serbs in the world at Serbs, but your last edit summary is completely out of line. You are threatening to vandalise another article and then editwar on that article because you are in dispute with editors at Serbs. This is potentially very serious given Serbs is included in the scope of WP:ARBMAC (which allows for the imposition of discretionary sanctions), and you are already doing quite a bit of edit warring already. It might appear to you that this stuff is very important, but this is Wikipedia and not the real world, and if you are just getting frustrated with it it's not doing you or Wikipedia any good. I note Antid has suggested you focus on something else for a bit and get more familiar with WP policies and guidelines, and I would just like to say that is a very good idea and I encourage you to take up his kind offer to collaborate on something else. In the meantime I suggest you revert yourself, noting in the edit summary that your threats were intemperate, then make the edit you intended without the threats. Regards, Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 14:19, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
I have also agreed on idea of Antidisk; we will do article on Rudolph van veen the famous Dutch tv cook :). Greetings ( Правичност ( talk) 03:52, 16 April 2013 (UTC))
Ako za Čehe, Austrijance, Hrvate i ostale koristimo jedan izvor nevidim zasto da ga nekoristimo i za Srbe. Ako broj Srba od službenog popisa utrostručimo, koliko tek Poljaka ima u SAD-u 50 milijuna, Čeha 5 milijuna. Pola stanovnika Amerike su Irci. A vjeruj mi sigurno cemo naci i takve POV izvore. Također imamo i izvore Ministarstva dijaspore u koje je broj Srba u dijaspori puno manji od onog kojeg ti hoćeš nametniti. Uporno pokušavas povećati broj Srba vidiš kako je završilo s Srbima u Turskoj fijasko, potpuno neutralan i nerelavantan izvor pokušavaš staviti. Ako stavis neke realne izvore nitko ti ih nece maknuti, stoviše to je za pohvalu, al ostalo nije dobro.-- Sokac121 ( talk) 11:06, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
Popis iz 1965. pa možemo onda stavit i popis iz 1941. da u Vojvodini živi 250.000 Njemaca, u Hrvatskoj 100.000 u Poljskoj par milijuna :) Od 1965. se puno toga promjenilo. Ako broj Srba u četverostrucis onda prema tome Hrvata u SAD-u ima 3 milijuna www.hia.com.hr/iseljenici/iseljenici01.html to je po tvome ja to neću staviti. Srbi u Njemačkoj sedma po veličini skupina ti ih stavio kao treća otprilike, za Dansku stavis izvor joshua project koji nije pouzdan. Na istoj stranici ti piše joshuaproject 993,000 Srba u BiH, France 25,000, Austria 21,000 no naravno tu se praviš slijep i neces stavit te manje brojke. Što se tiče Hrvata u Novom Zelandu pogledaj na googlu Maori and Croatians, Tarara Croats vidim da se sad o tome vodi rasprava pa si me potako da nesto napisem:)-- Sokac121 ( talk) 10:33, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Ništa mogu te pozvati da budeš realan i prestanes s svojim nacionalistickim nastupima koji ce biti uklonjeni. -- Sokac121 ( talk) 10:23, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
Adrian ( talk) 15:35, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
Nešto mi je iskrslo, tako da moram da odložim ono za neke, verovatno, dve nedelje. Do tada možeš vratiti onu drugu sliku, koja je svakako bolja, dogovori se sa drugim urednicima. Imate tri, četiri verzije iste slike. pozdrav :) Mm.srb ( talk) 10:55, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
Dobro, videću šta mogu. Hvala, pozdrav :). ( Правичност ( talk) 14:58, 15 May 2013 (UTC))
Adrian ( talk) 20:40, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
You don't seem to know the difference between a state flag and national flag do you? Doesn't matter, here's what you need to know. And I know my history quite well, thanks... Buttons ( talk) 19:17, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
And this is suppose to be a reliable source by you? As i can see that page can be modified by anyone... I know very well what the flag of Kingdom of Serbia was thank you. ( Правичност ( talk) 11:33, 29 June 2013 (UTC))
Konstantno radis na tome da broj Srba povećaš, na cijelom infoobox-u si prikazo najveci broj Srba u pojedinim zemljama. Ideš po internetu i trazis svakakve sulude izvore i stavljas ih kao pouzdane, dok u drugu ruke neces da stavis one koje tebi ne pašu. Za broj Srba u Njemačkoj, BiH, JAR, Austrija.... se neću miješati iako bi i tu imao sto za reci, ali ovo u SAD-u je nerealno. Također kršiš pravila wikipedije i služiš se Canvassingom gdje zoves suradnike da podrzaju tvoje ideje. Dakle budi malo realan. Laku noć -- Sokac121 ( talk) 19:55, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
-Smešno... naravno dok bi ti sve te brojke smanjio kako bi ukazao da Hrvata ima više od Srba- (mada znaš da to nije realno) heh. Ako bi kršio neka pravila za to bi bio upozoren, pogotovo za taj tvoj canvassing, ja ne tražim podrške nigde već samo upiam za pomoć ako mi treba. "Druže", nacionalan si i to mnogo. Laku noć. ( Правичност ( talk) 20:11, 29 June 2013 (UTC))
Hello!.. allright... I I Sir. ( Правичност ( talk) 20:51, 29 June 2013 (UTC))
Would you be interested in creating and expanding Klisina Monastery to start-class, or higher, in line with the current WikiProject Serbia collaboration on Serbian monasteries? If you accept, once you're finished, let User:Zoupan or User:Antidiskriminator know, and you will be assigned new tasks.-- Zoupan 18:19, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
Please do not attack other editors. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. In a 2007 arbitration case, administrators were given the power to impose discretionary sanctions on any user editing Balkans-related articles in a disruptive way. If you engage in further inappropriate behaviour in this area, you may be placed under sanctions including blocks, a revert limitation or an article/topic ban. Thank you.
Telling another user to blow you while reverting them is asking for trouble. Please don't do it.
-- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 19:29, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
This comment was also basically an insult aimed at some other user. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 19:51, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
The article quotes him as saying he is Montenegrin. Why would he say he's Montenegrin when he was born in Denmark? Because he is ETHNICALLY a Montenegrin. Leave it at that.-- DemirBajraktarevic ( talk) 19:02, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
The Bosnian situation is entirely different. Bosniaks are the Bosnian ethnic group no matter how much Serbs want to make them believe that they aren't.-- DemirBajraktarevic ( talk) 20:21, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Republic of Serbia (1992–2006), you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Serbian ( check to confirm | fix with Dab solver). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.
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Four contributor are told that there are 10 million Serbs. Unfortunately, I will inform administrators that you constantly break the rules. Stop breaking the rules of Wikipedia. Thanks! -- Sokac121 ( talk) 19:44, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Did they? They just told me to use sources... so i did.. and after that you came to edit warre. You are illusioning again. And Yes please do, you are making me laugh :) ( Правичност ( talk) 01:14, 29 August 2013 (UTC))
{{
unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}
below this notice, but you should read the
guide to appealing blocks first.
Wifione
Message 04:35, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Oprem Dobro! :) ( Правичност ( talk) 20:47, 29 August 2013 (UTC))
Look, Pravičnost: we have a source that says the 1990 constitution introduced Serbo-Croatian. If you believe Serbia changed its constitution very soon then please source that. -- Director ( talk) 16:09, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
Director ( talk), .... FR Yugoslavia (later Serbia and Montenegro) started to exist from 1992 onwards...and you are placing a source from 1990, when SFR Yugoslavia still existed.... WHERE IS THE LOGIC? I have a book at home called "Države sveta 2000" ... there its clearly written that Serbian is the official language of the country... Serbo Croatian was quickly replaced with Serbian after the war ended.... there is no logic they would keep serbo-croatian after independence anyway. This is nonsence and false writing of history. How would you like if i would place a source from 1990 for Croatia... it would write Serbo-Croatian aswell. ( Правичност ( talk) 19:16, 23 September 2013 (UTC))
Look, stop revert-warring. Serbian and Croatian have equal status in Vojvodina... --
Director (
talk) 22:52, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
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Hello Pravičnost!
First of all, let me tell you that I find the way you adressed me/summarized your undoing of my edit (using words as "vandalizing" and "foolish edits") as very inapropriate and offensive. Let's not be pretentious and acting like you are a supreme arbiter of Wikipedia. It is not the point of this project, but cooperation and sharing of different information in order of creating more reliable and credible artciles. My only intetnion has been and still is to improve and made article more accurate.
You rightly pointed that Wikipedia is about sources but I would modified it and say it is about reliable sources. Reliable sources are not randomly picked articles on the Internet, which credibility cannot be proved and examined. I take it as my fault putting an obscure source for the number of Serbs in the New Zealand in the absecnce of the official data - I was driven by that "better something than nothing" policy so I tried to find any source whatsoever (since that country has become a significant destiantion of Serbian emigration in last two decades). However, when there are reliable sources such as the case with the United States, putting any other but official sources and data is simply not credible. That estimate of 1.8 million Serbs in the U.S. is ridiculous overstating found on some obscure site. Only source we can rely on when talking about number of Serbs in America are official data of U.S. Census Bureau form 2010 Census, and there are only two figures that can we rely on: one is for people who delared themselves as of Sebrian descent (187,731) and that of people of Yugoslav descent (327,131), for later is adequate to mention it in the footnotes. Same goes with Canada and Australia figure: for both of these countries official figures are available (72,609 and 69,544, respectively) and there is simply no need to put any other unofficial and arbitrary figures, no matter what sites they are reffered from. Those higher estimations should be putted in the footnotes but not on par with official figures in the table itself. On the other side, I think it's appropriate to reffer to unofficial sources in case of the country which doesn't have official data on ethnicity (such as France, Sweden, etc.). I also noticed that even the figure of Montenegro's speakers of Serbian language as a mother tongue on the table found its place - in presence of official data of people who declared their ethnicity as Serbian, putting that figure of Serbian speakers is nonsense and should be removed to the footnotes where it has been located previously.
As well, I undestand Wikipedia as place which is not about the game of making higher figures and putting some nonsense numbers just to make the point to the others (in this case Croats who you pointed as ones playing those games). We Serbs need to stick to real numbers, and let Croats drown in their own idyocies.
As for grouping of the regions with significant population, I don't get your a priori negative attitude towards that possible modification. That grouping has not been my invention but something that has proven useful and adequate in the number of articles for other peoples (article about Hungarian people, for example) where table is organized that way. It provides for better visibility and easier overview of the figures. It does groupings in four directions: one is for Serbia itself as mother-country of the Serbian people, second is for neigbouring countries where Serbs are autochtonous people (either as the contituent people such as the case in BiH, or recognized minority in the other countries, or something in between which is the case for official status of Serbs in Montenegro), and the others are for diaspora destionations.
You also mentioned, "self-handed calculations". I don't get how you find arbitrary and manipulative simple summation of the available numbers such as the case of that grouping of Serbia's neighbouring countries, when all data is available and official (with exemption of so-called independent Kosovo, which census has been largely boycotteed by our people downthere). Same goes for some other groupings ("North America" for example, where there are official figures for both the US and Canada, and simmply summing those two figures I don't find manipulative at all), for others there is an approximative figure based on data from respective countries (such as the case for "rest of Europe" category, where you can give an approximative figure based on individual figures and common-sense fact that 95% or even higher percentage of Serbian diaspora is found in the countries listed on the table).
I am looking forward getting a feedback from you and I hope you find this as a constructive discussion of making the Serbs article better and more accurate. I will restrain from making any edits before I get that feedback and see your opinion. I hope we find some common ground, if not, we can bring this to some higher Wiki instances and let them decide...
Pozdrav i svako dobro, Klačko ( talk) 21:21, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Ok, mislim da napredujemo u našem međusobnom razumevanju. Prihvatam tvoj argument oko grupisanja po regionima, iako i dalje mislim da bi to itekako doprinelo preglednosti tabele. Imaš primer članka o Mađarima pa sam prosudi, jer su oni dosta slični nama posebno po činjenici da su poput nas dosta prisutni u okolnim zemljama. Ipak, i bez te modifikacije, treba poraditi na preglednosti tabele, mislim da je dobra ta ideja koju si pomenuo za brisanje iz tabele zemalja koje imaju manje od 5 ili 10 hiljada Srba, s tim što bih se ja tu ipak zadržao na neevropske zemlje, jer imaš primer jedne Mađarske na čijoj su današnjoj teritoriji Srbi autohton naraod već više stotina godina i bilo bi neozbiljno brisati tu stavku samo zato što je naših sunarodnika danas tamo tek 7 hiljada. Sa druge strane, vodeći se tim kriterijumom "uljez" na tabeli su mi Emirati, jer em u (po meni) nekredibilnom izvoru se navodi broj Srba od 5 hiljada em za ovu višu cifru od 15 hiljada se koristi potpuno neodređena sintagma "sa naših prostora" što nužno se ne mora odnositi na Srbe.
Oko nekih suštinskih stvari i dalje se ne slažemo.
1. Ne mogu da shvatim i prihvatim princip stavljanja nezvaničnih podataka tik uz zvanične podatke dobijene na regularno odrađenim popisima. Zvaničan podatak i nezvanična procena prosto ne mogu imati jednak tretman, to je ono što pokušavam da objasnim. Ako već postoji potreba za stavljanjem nezvaničnih procena, one bi trebale biti navedene u fusnoti, nikako drugačije. I tu kontra-argument s pominjanjem prakse kod Hrvata, Bugara i ostalih nije relevantan, jer isto tako postoji drugačija praksa poput članka o Slovacima gde se sledi princip koju zagovaram da ga se držimo i kod nas. Druga je stvar kod zemalja koje ne vode statistiku o etnicitetima (poput Francuske) i gde je stavljanje nezvaničnih procena opravdano.
2. Ne mogu se takođe složiti sa stavom da se treba staviti u tabeli staviti cifra govornika srpskog jezika kao maternjeg u Crnoj Gori. Adekvatno mesto za to eventualno može biti fusnota kao što je bilo do pre koji dan (u međuvremenu je i to pomerneo u tabelu), mada je i to svojevrsno natezanje iz razloga što ovo nije članak o jeziku niti je tabela u ovom članku tabela o jezičkoj statistici. Takvim statistikama je mesto u članku o srpskom jeziku a ne Srbima kao narodu. Složiću se s tobom o genezi crnogorske nacije, tu su stvari jasne, ali statistika i cifre nisu stvari preko kojih se to treba prebijati. Opet za to postoje prikladni članci na Vikipediji, od članka o Crnogorcima pa nadalje... Kategorija "Srbi-Crnogorci" i "Crnogorci-Srbi" su statistički zanemarljive, jedna ima hiljadu i nešto a druga par stotina tako izjašnjenih, mogu se i oni navesti u fusnoti, ali ne vidim neki preterani razlog. Prosto, ne treba se gubiti i ići u širinunego se fokusirano držati cifre onih koji su se etnički izjasnili kao Srbi, bez ikakvih dodataka i odbitaka, prosto i jasno kao Srbi. Sve ostalo je zaglibljivanje u mulj proizvoljnosti i ličnih tumačenja.
3. Bojim se da upadaš u proizvoljnost kad dozvoljavaš sebi da pored lako dostupnih statistika licitiraš sa brojem Srba u Jugoslaviji od 9-9,5 miliona. To naprosto nije tačno! Srba je u SFRJ 1991. bilo 8,527 miliona (taj i svi raniji popisi su rađeni po staroj metodologiji, koja je ubrajala i nerezidentno stanovništvo tj. privremeno odsutna lica; stalno prisutnih Srba je verovatno bilo koja stotina hiljada manje, verovatno oko 8,2 miliona; imaš podatak RZS-a da je Srba u Srbiji bez Kosova stalno pristunih bilo 6,054 miliona 1991. godine iako je po tada važećoj metodologiji popisano 6,252 miliona, znači samo u Srbiji je po tom osnovu razlika od 200 hiljada, a gde su druge republike!?), 1981. 8,136 miliona a 1971. 8,147 miliona. Znači za jedno milion do milion i po manje od pretpostavki na osnovu kojih ti i kolege koje navodiš temeljite svoje procene o ukupnom broju Srba u svetu (jednako preterivanje kao i ovo sa sa Srbima na prostorima Ex-YU, gornja granica svih Srba u svetu je svakako 10 miliona, a verovatno danas bliža cifri od 9,5 miliona). I opet kao svojevrsno opravdanje za tako nešto navodiš šta rade Hrvati?! To nije nikakav argument šta rade drugi, pa ako oni rade krivo, ajmo da ih sledimo u tome. Na stranu moje lično mišljenje da Hrvati kao takvi od nas Srba treba da dobiju samo ignorisanje a ne pridavanje (nepotrebne i kontraproduktivne) pažnje, ili još gore ugledati se na njih. Meni to deluje pomalo detinjasto, prosto neozbiljno za projekat kakav je Vikipedija.
4. Izvor za S.A.D. može biti samo i isključivo Popisni biro S.A.D. a oni imaju dve, za nas, relevantne cifre: oni koji su se izjasnili da su srpskog porekla i oni koji su se izjasnili da su jugoslovenskog porekla (za koje se opravdano može smatrati da većinski jesu srpskog etničkog porekla). To su zvanične cifre, svaka čast Timu Džudi ali on nije demograf po profesiji nego novinar koji je u svojim knjigama imao porpilično neobjektivan (prema Srbima, dabome) i nenaučan pristup materiji ratova na prostoru bivše Jugoslavije. Relevantnost - nula, zero, nada... Takođe, ne znam koliko si upoznat, ali na američkom popisu imaš rubriku "ancestry" (etničko poreklo) i to je potpuno druga stvar od stavke "race", dakle američki popisi su itekako zasnovani i na etničkom poreklu. Melting pot za ovu našu priču nije relevantan, jer dok postoji nečija svest o svom etničkom poreklu on je i vidljiv za ovakve statistike - onaj koji nema takvu svest i ne može se po bilo kom osnovu smatrati ili uopšte na naučan način utvrditi pripadnikom neke nacije, u ovom slučaju Srba. Isti princip važi i za Kanadu i Australiju.
Eto, toliko za sad, ja ću se i dalje suzdržati od uređivanja, čekajući da vidim tvoj odgovor i procenim da li eventualna nova argumentacija je dovoljno dobra da bih je prihvatio (kao što sam prihvatio tvoj stav o regionalnom grupisanju). Čekajući tvoj odgovor, imaš pozdrav Klačko ( talk) 21:28, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
Zaboravih da se osvrnem na dilemu oko Srbije i BiH. Srbija je u Ustavu definisana, osim kao nacionalna država srpskog naroda (u "Osnovnim načelima") i kao matična država srpskog naroda (u jednom od članova koji se odnosi na saradnju sa Srbima u regionu i dijasporom). Dakle, u njavišem aktu zemlje. BiH istorijski jeste srpska zemlja, ali danas je to država u kojem su Srbi konstitutivan narod, tako piše u Ustavu. Treba se toga držati i u tabeli, bez izjednačavanja sa Srbijom ipak.
Sad videh da je u međuvremenu neko vratio one moje izmene, istomišljenik verovatno:)
Klačko ( talk) 21:43, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
1. Neozbiljno je kao argument navoditi primer utakmice u Emiratima. Nije isto "5.000 Srba" i do "15.000 ljudi sa naših prostora". Prvo se može odnositi samo na Srbe, a drugo može uključivati narode na širem prostoru, pre svega ex-YU za koji se danas najviše i koristi ta sintagma "naši/ovi prostori". Izvlačiti iz toga zaključak da se pretpostavlja da su Srbi je prosto neosnovano. Iz izvora koji stoji može se izvući zaključak o 5.000 Srba i ništa više. Sve ostalo je puka špekulacija.
2. Šta konkretno znači "sam Vašington je pomenuo da je Čikago grad sa 350-500 hiljada Srba"? Šta podrazumevaš pod Vašington, gde je taj izvor, jel može neki link? O našoj ambasadi tek ne bih, i inače slušajući našu vladu i zvaničnike ne bih ništa uzimao zdravo za gotovo. Istima su puna usta o Beogradu kao dvomilionskom gradu, iako administrativno ima 1,6 miliona a sam grad-naselje 1,2 miliona. Stoga se treba držati zvanične statistike i popisa. Suštinski, ovde vidim sukob dve koncepcije, dva poimanja. Jedan je moj, restriktivniji i konzervativniji, koji je za to da se držimo samo kredibilnih izvora (gde postoje, a u slučaju S.A.D. postoje, to su popis i Popisni biro S.A.D.), a drugi je tvoj liberalniji i fleksibilniji, koji prilično nekritički preuzima izvore koji se mogu naći na netu. A ako bi nekritički se držali izvora na netu, mogli bismo odmah napraviti i infoboks u članku o vanzemaljcima gde bi naveli da ih ima nekoliko hiljada koji trenutno obitavaju na planeti Zemlji, ili u članku o Kenediju da izbrišemo da je Kenedi mrtav jer ima mali milion članaka na internetu gde se tvrdi da je živ, itd. Nadam se da razumeš moju poentu.
3. Moj otac je rođen u Crnoj Gori i vučem poreklo iz tih krajeva i dobro su mi poznata ta nijansiranja i laviranja, i nastanak nove crnogorske nacije 1945. godine. Ali da ne bih širio previše priču, sve se svodi na ono o čemu sam i u ranijem odgovoru pisao. Jedno su Crnogorci koji se nacionalno osećaju kao Crnogorci, a drugo su Crnogorci koji se regionalno osećaju Crnogorcima a nacionalno Srbima. Prvi za sebe ne misle da su Srbi, jer da misle ništa lakše nego da se izjasne Srbima. Oni to nisu učinili i tu prosto nema prostora za bilo kakvu proizvoljnost u vidu veće procene/estimacije. Drugi za sebe misle da su Srbi, a Crnogorac im je regionalna odrednica, kao što je Šumadincu regionalan odrednica Šumadinac a nacionalna Srbin, ili Hercegovcu, Krajišniku, Vojvođaninu, itd.
4. Za ukupan broj Srba i dalje se ne slažem, ne može se kao osnov uzimati proizvoljni zbir Srba + ljudi koji su se izjasnili kao Jugosloveni i Crnogorci. Dobar deo Jugoslovena i skoro svi Crnogorci jesu srpskog porekla i korena, nesporno, ali nisu Srbi jer se tako ne osećaju, da su se osećali izjasnili bi se kao Srbi. Prosto ne možeš nijednom naučnom metodom opravdati njihovo pridodavanje Srbima, možemo samo pretpostavljati i tu bih se složio sa tobom da se radi o ljudima srpskog porekla (mada se uglavnom radilo o ljudima iz mešanih brakova, pričam za Jugoslovene), ali ako se čovek tako ne izjašnjava - tu je kraj. Demografija je slepa naučna disciplina, za nju postoje samo suve cifre, sve ostalo se treba ostaviti istoriji gde se treba objasniti geneza i Jugoslovena i Crnogoraca kao nacije koji su nesumnjivo nastali od Srba. Ponavljam, to je za istoriju koja bi objasnila i protumačila te procese prelaska iz srpske u neku novu (veštačku) naciju, to nije stvar demografije koja treba samo da prezentira cifre. S druge strane, prihvatam tvoj argument za korišćenjem izvora sa većom estimacijom obrazlaganjem da se ostavi svakom na izbor za koju cifru i izvor će se opredeliti i verovati, neka se navedu svi. To je ok, s tim što bih donju cifru korigovao na oko 10 miliona jer je to najpribližnije stvarnom stanju.
5. Ne slažem se ni za broj Srba u Americi. Prosto imaš dve cifre: oni koji su se izjasnili srpskog i oni koji su se izjasnili jugoslovenskog porekla (koji su većinski Srbi). Mislim da bi se mogli naći na tome da se u fusnotama stavi ta cifra koju pominješ od našeg Ministartsva (sada kancelarije) za dijasporu od 800k-1 milion ljudi srpskog porekla u S.A.D. sa ili bez ove cifre za ljude koji su se izjasnili da su jugoslovenskog porekla. I dalje mislim da je taj izvor nekredibilan jer ne vidim na osnovu čega i kojim metodom su uradili tu procenu, al ajde...
6. Srbija je u svom ustavu definsiana kao "nacionalna država srpskog naroda i drugih naroda koji u njoj žive". BiH je u svom ustavu definisana kao "država Bošnjaka, Srba i Hrvata i svih ostalih građana koji u njoj žive". Primećuješ razliku? U Srbiji su Srbi jasno izdvojeni i naglašeno je da je to nacionalna država srpskog naroda, a u BiH konstitutivni status Srbi dele sa još dva naroda. Uz to Srbija je u svom ustavu definisana kao "država-matica Srba u regionu", tako nešto nema u slučaju BiH. Ali na stranu suvoparni paragrafi (iako sam pravnik po struci), realnost je da Srbija je danas država u kojoj živi 80% Srba na prostorima gde smo autohtoni (to su prostori Balkana), da je to jedina država gde smo kao narod većina (apsolutna). Sve to preteže da Srbija bude jasno izdvojena u odnosu na druge u infoboksu, pa i BiH. Uostalom, kad se već pozivaš na praksu kod drugih članaka, onda ćeš videti da je i kod maltene svih izdvojena jedna država, država-matica. Eto i ti Hrvati koje uzimaš za primer, i oni BiH ne izdvajaju iako i njihovi sunarodnici imaju nominalno isti status u BiH kao i naši ljudi tamo.
7. Stalno se pozivaš na neki konsenzus, ja sam pažljivo isčitao Talk stranicu i nisam to primetio, niti tako nešto uopšte može postojati - postoje istiniti i relevantni podaci i neistiniti i nerelevantni podaci. Izvori su se dodavali i brisali, cifre su se menjale, bilo je oko toga diskusije ali nisam video da tu postoji neka šira saglasnost. Prosto, kako je ko uređivao, tako je dodavao/oduzimao nešto svoje. Vikipedija-članci nisu zamišljeni kao nešto što je od sad pa zanavek uklesano u kamen, nepodložno izmenama, jer da jeste, ne bi postojala opcija "Edit". Ako neko iznese drugačije podatke i iznese valjanu argumentaciju koja to potkrepljuje, to nije suprotno već u skladu sa pravilima ovog projekta i doprinosi poboljšanju kvaliteta i verodostojnosti članaka. Primetio sam doduše pojačanu aktivnost Hrvata na ovoj stranici, tu se slažem, doduše nisam znao da je onaj lik na kog sam se referisao Hrvat. On je vratio moje izmene (sa sve regionalnim grupisanjem), a Ruby Murray mu je izbrisao ne zbog nekog konsensuza na koji se ti pozivaš nego zato što ovaj nije dao objašnjenje i argumentovao svoje izmene.
Sve u svemu, oko nekih stvari smo se na kraju složili, oko nekih ne, pa da se više ne bi vrteli u krug, ja ću u narednih par dana editovati infoboks na način za koji smatram da će poboljšati kvalitet i relevantnost istog (prihvatajući neke od tvojih argumenata i držeći se kompromisa do kojih smo došli, a za ostatak tj. stvari oko kojih se nismo složili, ću te zamoliti da se suzdržiš od editovanja mojih unosa, bar na neko vreme dok ne vidimo rekaciju ostalih). Svoje izmene ću detaljno obrazložiti na Talk-u i svako će imati priliku da iste pobije i ponudi bolje, pouzdanije i relevantnije podatke i izvore kao i metode preko kojih su do istih došli. Rado ću prodiskutovati o svemu na Talk-u članka Serbs. Prosto da dozvolimo i čujemo mišljenje drugih, možda ljudi bolje prihvate te izmene, a ako budu bili protiv, to će se jasno i vrlo brzo videti. Ja sam u vezi ovog spreman da idem do kraja jer zaista verujem da članak Serbs tj. njegov infoboks ima prostora za boljitak, što sam spreman da podrobno argumentujem, a ako situacija postane problematična, treba videti i sa administratorima i uključiti ih u celu priču.
Pozdrav! Klačko ( talk) 12:47, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Napisao sam ti par stvari na mojoj stranici. Pozdrav Klačko ( talk) 20:35, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
We will just go round and round.I don't have a problem with you.You can leave 10-12 mil if u ask me.I'm not reverting anything on Serbs article because i will just get into a war with someone ove a few stupid things.That's why i don't like that way Sokac sometimes act but i can't do anything.Just don't go to Croats article if you have problems with Sokac on Serbs article.That is not the way.We will never come to conclusion over something that is related to Serbs and CroatsScrosby85 01:11, 16 December 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrosby85 ( talk • contribs)
There is no other way im afraid Scrosby85 ( talk. Šokac is playing a fool, starting same edit wars with same arguments over and over again, as he did whole past year. He is clearly fighting for a smaller number of Serbs by his violent forcible acts. If he continues to canvass other croatian editors to attack Serbs article and defend Croats article and act blind or depth just as if nobody didnt aproove his actions or sources or arguments in the past and continues to do same thing over and over again with the "rape" of numbers. I am afraid i will be forced to do something in return and we will have a real edit war going on both sides, because there simply is no therapy for this deasese of his, which is called the "anti-Serbian syndrom". ( Правичност ( talk) 22:00, 28 February 2014 (UTC))
Hello. Due to the constitution of Republika Srpska ( http://skupstinabd.ba/ustavi/rs/ustav_hrvatski.pdf), capital city of Republika Srpska is Sarajevo, not Banja Luka!-- Munich 2013 ( talk) 14:36, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
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Please stop breaking the rules of Wikipedia 3RR [9] in Article Serbs.-- Šokac121 ℗ 20:09, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Hello Pravičnost. I saw you worked at articles about Serbs. I added some famous people into infobox on pages Serbian American, Serbian Australian, Serbs in Germany and Serbs in the United Kingdom. Plus, i made some pages about their other diaspora countries: Serbian Argentine, Ukrainian Serbs and Serbian Russians, and if you have some info of their history, add it. -- MisterBean ( talk) 14:32, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
Hello Mr. Bean im sorry for a several years late reply, i stopped working on wikipedia long time ago, came here just to "retire", and yes i saw those articles and edits, you`ve done a good job :) Pozdrav ( Правичност ( talk) 22:53, 10 September 2017 (UTC))
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Adrian ( talk) 00:06, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Hello, I have found another source, I would like to hear your input on this matter. Greetings.
Adrian (
talk) 18:57, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
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Hi! Please consider adding new, sourced articles (within 5 days of creation or 5x expansion) to the Wikipedia:Did you know, in order to enlight the community about your articles! If you have any questions, please ask me or Antidiskriminator. Thank you.-- Zoupan 15:57, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
Please comment the content, not the contributor. Comments like this are unacceptable. Please consider not doing this in future.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 22:09, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
I will. In that moment of false accusements and personal attacks i reacted too quickly. ( Правичност ( talk) 22:24, 9 April 2013 (UTC))
Hello,
I have reverted your edit (about the Serbian language) because in the infobox we add languages that are related to that ethnic group. I don`t believe Serbian is related to Romanian(Vlach) language. If you do, please provide a valid source. They speak Serbian of course, because they live in Serbia but Serbian language is not related to this ethnic group. Example: To add German language to the Serbs infobox? There is a huge number of Serbs speaking the German language but is it related to the Serbian language in any linguistic way? Just because Serbs speak German it doesn`t mean it should be present in the infobox at the Serbs article. Greetings. Adrian ( talk) 11:47, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Official source is the U.S. Census! Blic.rs, krajinaforce.com no official data It's POV. Stop increasing the number of Serbs, and reduce the number of other South Slavs.-- Sokac121 ( talk) 18:40, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Ok. Let`s just focus on the problem. Sokac121 I have noticed your recent edit [3] where you removed Blic source [4] and UsaSerbs [5] source. What is the problem with this sources by you? Why are you changing the higher estimate of the total number of Serbs in the World? Adrian ( talk) 20:26, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
-...But anyways... he gets away with it calling me names and stuff... okay. ( Правичност ( talk) 18:30, 11 April 2013 (UTC))
Right... well this Šufadaj? was it a medieval port inside medieval Serbia (when Durres was under Serbia)? ( Правичност ( talk) 01:27, 14 April 2013 (UTC))
Actually these kind of themes dont quite draw my interest much, idk... give me a few days if i manage to find something new or to decide... in meanwhile.. how about Rudpolph van veen? The famous dutch cook from 24 kitchen, who is slowly getting more popular than jamie oliver? http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolph_van_Veen ( Правичност ( talk) 19:45, 14 April 2013 (UTC))
Very well i will delete my message i dont actually even care much about "nationalist propaganda" which that is by my opinion. I will take a look at those... and shame for Rudolph van Veen, he certainly deserves a place on english wikipedia. Then please do inform me, thank you. ( Правичност ( talk) 20:26, 14 April 2013 (UTC))
Good news. Administrator who deleted the article on Rudolph van Veen approved its creation. I will create it now. Please join me. (remember to read WP:BLP). Do you know how to add his picture?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 06:11, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
G'day Правичност, I've been trying to butt out of the ongoing debacle with the total number of Serbs in the world at Serbs, but your last edit summary is completely out of line. You are threatening to vandalise another article and then editwar on that article because you are in dispute with editors at Serbs. This is potentially very serious given Serbs is included in the scope of WP:ARBMAC (which allows for the imposition of discretionary sanctions), and you are already doing quite a bit of edit warring already. It might appear to you that this stuff is very important, but this is Wikipedia and not the real world, and if you are just getting frustrated with it it's not doing you or Wikipedia any good. I note Antid has suggested you focus on something else for a bit and get more familiar with WP policies and guidelines, and I would just like to say that is a very good idea and I encourage you to take up his kind offer to collaborate on something else. In the meantime I suggest you revert yourself, noting in the edit summary that your threats were intemperate, then make the edit you intended without the threats. Regards, Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 14:19, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
I have also agreed on idea of Antidisk; we will do article on Rudolph van veen the famous Dutch tv cook :). Greetings ( Правичност ( talk) 03:52, 16 April 2013 (UTC))
Ako za Čehe, Austrijance, Hrvate i ostale koristimo jedan izvor nevidim zasto da ga nekoristimo i za Srbe. Ako broj Srba od službenog popisa utrostručimo, koliko tek Poljaka ima u SAD-u 50 milijuna, Čeha 5 milijuna. Pola stanovnika Amerike su Irci. A vjeruj mi sigurno cemo naci i takve POV izvore. Također imamo i izvore Ministarstva dijaspore u koje je broj Srba u dijaspori puno manji od onog kojeg ti hoćeš nametniti. Uporno pokušavas povećati broj Srba vidiš kako je završilo s Srbima u Turskoj fijasko, potpuno neutralan i nerelavantan izvor pokušavaš staviti. Ako stavis neke realne izvore nitko ti ih nece maknuti, stoviše to je za pohvalu, al ostalo nije dobro.-- Sokac121 ( talk) 11:06, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
Popis iz 1965. pa možemo onda stavit i popis iz 1941. da u Vojvodini živi 250.000 Njemaca, u Hrvatskoj 100.000 u Poljskoj par milijuna :) Od 1965. se puno toga promjenilo. Ako broj Srba u četverostrucis onda prema tome Hrvata u SAD-u ima 3 milijuna www.hia.com.hr/iseljenici/iseljenici01.html to je po tvome ja to neću staviti. Srbi u Njemačkoj sedma po veličini skupina ti ih stavio kao treća otprilike, za Dansku stavis izvor joshua project koji nije pouzdan. Na istoj stranici ti piše joshuaproject 993,000 Srba u BiH, France 25,000, Austria 21,000 no naravno tu se praviš slijep i neces stavit te manje brojke. Što se tiče Hrvata u Novom Zelandu pogledaj na googlu Maori and Croatians, Tarara Croats vidim da se sad o tome vodi rasprava pa si me potako da nesto napisem:)-- Sokac121 ( talk) 10:33, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Ništa mogu te pozvati da budeš realan i prestanes s svojim nacionalistickim nastupima koji ce biti uklonjeni. -- Sokac121 ( talk) 10:23, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
Adrian ( talk) 15:35, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
Nešto mi je iskrslo, tako da moram da odložim ono za neke, verovatno, dve nedelje. Do tada možeš vratiti onu drugu sliku, koja je svakako bolja, dogovori se sa drugim urednicima. Imate tri, četiri verzije iste slike. pozdrav :) Mm.srb ( talk) 10:55, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
Dobro, videću šta mogu. Hvala, pozdrav :). ( Правичност ( talk) 14:58, 15 May 2013 (UTC))
Adrian ( talk) 20:40, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
You don't seem to know the difference between a state flag and national flag do you? Doesn't matter, here's what you need to know. And I know my history quite well, thanks... Buttons ( talk) 19:17, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
And this is suppose to be a reliable source by you? As i can see that page can be modified by anyone... I know very well what the flag of Kingdom of Serbia was thank you. ( Правичност ( talk) 11:33, 29 June 2013 (UTC))
Konstantno radis na tome da broj Srba povećaš, na cijelom infoobox-u si prikazo najveci broj Srba u pojedinim zemljama. Ideš po internetu i trazis svakakve sulude izvore i stavljas ih kao pouzdane, dok u drugu ruke neces da stavis one koje tebi ne pašu. Za broj Srba u Njemačkoj, BiH, JAR, Austrija.... se neću miješati iako bi i tu imao sto za reci, ali ovo u SAD-u je nerealno. Također kršiš pravila wikipedije i služiš se Canvassingom gdje zoves suradnike da podrzaju tvoje ideje. Dakle budi malo realan. Laku noć -- Sokac121 ( talk) 19:55, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
-Smešno... naravno dok bi ti sve te brojke smanjio kako bi ukazao da Hrvata ima više od Srba- (mada znaš da to nije realno) heh. Ako bi kršio neka pravila za to bi bio upozoren, pogotovo za taj tvoj canvassing, ja ne tražim podrške nigde već samo upiam za pomoć ako mi treba. "Druže", nacionalan si i to mnogo. Laku noć. ( Правичност ( talk) 20:11, 29 June 2013 (UTC))
Hello!.. allright... I I Sir. ( Правичност ( talk) 20:51, 29 June 2013 (UTC))
Would you be interested in creating and expanding Klisina Monastery to start-class, or higher, in line with the current WikiProject Serbia collaboration on Serbian monasteries? If you accept, once you're finished, let User:Zoupan or User:Antidiskriminator know, and you will be assigned new tasks.-- Zoupan 18:19, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
Please do not attack other editors. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. In a 2007 arbitration case, administrators were given the power to impose discretionary sanctions on any user editing Balkans-related articles in a disruptive way. If you engage in further inappropriate behaviour in this area, you may be placed under sanctions including blocks, a revert limitation or an article/topic ban. Thank you.
Telling another user to blow you while reverting them is asking for trouble. Please don't do it.
-- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 19:29, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
This comment was also basically an insult aimed at some other user. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 19:51, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
The article quotes him as saying he is Montenegrin. Why would he say he's Montenegrin when he was born in Denmark? Because he is ETHNICALLY a Montenegrin. Leave it at that.-- DemirBajraktarevic ( talk) 19:02, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
The Bosnian situation is entirely different. Bosniaks are the Bosnian ethnic group no matter how much Serbs want to make them believe that they aren't.-- DemirBajraktarevic ( talk) 20:21, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Republic of Serbia (1992–2006), you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Serbian ( check to confirm | fix with Dab solver). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.
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Four contributor are told that there are 10 million Serbs. Unfortunately, I will inform administrators that you constantly break the rules. Stop breaking the rules of Wikipedia. Thanks! -- Sokac121 ( talk) 19:44, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Did they? They just told me to use sources... so i did.. and after that you came to edit warre. You are illusioning again. And Yes please do, you are making me laugh :) ( Правичност ( talk) 01:14, 29 August 2013 (UTC))
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Message 04:35, 29 August 2013 (UTC)Oprem Dobro! :) ( Правичност ( talk) 20:47, 29 August 2013 (UTC))
Look, Pravičnost: we have a source that says the 1990 constitution introduced Serbo-Croatian. If you believe Serbia changed its constitution very soon then please source that. -- Director ( talk) 16:09, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
Director ( talk), .... FR Yugoslavia (later Serbia and Montenegro) started to exist from 1992 onwards...and you are placing a source from 1990, when SFR Yugoslavia still existed.... WHERE IS THE LOGIC? I have a book at home called "Države sveta 2000" ... there its clearly written that Serbian is the official language of the country... Serbo Croatian was quickly replaced with Serbian after the war ended.... there is no logic they would keep serbo-croatian after independence anyway. This is nonsence and false writing of history. How would you like if i would place a source from 1990 for Croatia... it would write Serbo-Croatian aswell. ( Правичност ( talk) 19:16, 23 September 2013 (UTC))
Look, stop revert-warring. Serbian and Croatian have equal status in Vojvodina... --
Director (
talk) 22:52, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
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Hello Pravičnost!
First of all, let me tell you that I find the way you adressed me/summarized your undoing of my edit (using words as "vandalizing" and "foolish edits") as very inapropriate and offensive. Let's not be pretentious and acting like you are a supreme arbiter of Wikipedia. It is not the point of this project, but cooperation and sharing of different information in order of creating more reliable and credible artciles. My only intetnion has been and still is to improve and made article more accurate.
You rightly pointed that Wikipedia is about sources but I would modified it and say it is about reliable sources. Reliable sources are not randomly picked articles on the Internet, which credibility cannot be proved and examined. I take it as my fault putting an obscure source for the number of Serbs in the New Zealand in the absecnce of the official data - I was driven by that "better something than nothing" policy so I tried to find any source whatsoever (since that country has become a significant destiantion of Serbian emigration in last two decades). However, when there are reliable sources such as the case with the United States, putting any other but official sources and data is simply not credible. That estimate of 1.8 million Serbs in the U.S. is ridiculous overstating found on some obscure site. Only source we can rely on when talking about number of Serbs in America are official data of U.S. Census Bureau form 2010 Census, and there are only two figures that can we rely on: one is for people who delared themselves as of Sebrian descent (187,731) and that of people of Yugoslav descent (327,131), for later is adequate to mention it in the footnotes. Same goes with Canada and Australia figure: for both of these countries official figures are available (72,609 and 69,544, respectively) and there is simply no need to put any other unofficial and arbitrary figures, no matter what sites they are reffered from. Those higher estimations should be putted in the footnotes but not on par with official figures in the table itself. On the other side, I think it's appropriate to reffer to unofficial sources in case of the country which doesn't have official data on ethnicity (such as France, Sweden, etc.). I also noticed that even the figure of Montenegro's speakers of Serbian language as a mother tongue on the table found its place - in presence of official data of people who declared their ethnicity as Serbian, putting that figure of Serbian speakers is nonsense and should be removed to the footnotes where it has been located previously.
As well, I undestand Wikipedia as place which is not about the game of making higher figures and putting some nonsense numbers just to make the point to the others (in this case Croats who you pointed as ones playing those games). We Serbs need to stick to real numbers, and let Croats drown in their own idyocies.
As for grouping of the regions with significant population, I don't get your a priori negative attitude towards that possible modification. That grouping has not been my invention but something that has proven useful and adequate in the number of articles for other peoples (article about Hungarian people, for example) where table is organized that way. It provides for better visibility and easier overview of the figures. It does groupings in four directions: one is for Serbia itself as mother-country of the Serbian people, second is for neigbouring countries where Serbs are autochtonous people (either as the contituent people such as the case in BiH, or recognized minority in the other countries, or something in between which is the case for official status of Serbs in Montenegro), and the others are for diaspora destionations.
You also mentioned, "self-handed calculations". I don't get how you find arbitrary and manipulative simple summation of the available numbers such as the case of that grouping of Serbia's neighbouring countries, when all data is available and official (with exemption of so-called independent Kosovo, which census has been largely boycotteed by our people downthere). Same goes for some other groupings ("North America" for example, where there are official figures for both the US and Canada, and simmply summing those two figures I don't find manipulative at all), for others there is an approximative figure based on data from respective countries (such as the case for "rest of Europe" category, where you can give an approximative figure based on individual figures and common-sense fact that 95% or even higher percentage of Serbian diaspora is found in the countries listed on the table).
I am looking forward getting a feedback from you and I hope you find this as a constructive discussion of making the Serbs article better and more accurate. I will restrain from making any edits before I get that feedback and see your opinion. I hope we find some common ground, if not, we can bring this to some higher Wiki instances and let them decide...
Pozdrav i svako dobro, Klačko ( talk) 21:21, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Ok, mislim da napredujemo u našem međusobnom razumevanju. Prihvatam tvoj argument oko grupisanja po regionima, iako i dalje mislim da bi to itekako doprinelo preglednosti tabele. Imaš primer članka o Mađarima pa sam prosudi, jer su oni dosta slični nama posebno po činjenici da su poput nas dosta prisutni u okolnim zemljama. Ipak, i bez te modifikacije, treba poraditi na preglednosti tabele, mislim da je dobra ta ideja koju si pomenuo za brisanje iz tabele zemalja koje imaju manje od 5 ili 10 hiljada Srba, s tim što bih se ja tu ipak zadržao na neevropske zemlje, jer imaš primer jedne Mađarske na čijoj su današnjoj teritoriji Srbi autohton naraod već više stotina godina i bilo bi neozbiljno brisati tu stavku samo zato što je naših sunarodnika danas tamo tek 7 hiljada. Sa druge strane, vodeći se tim kriterijumom "uljez" na tabeli su mi Emirati, jer em u (po meni) nekredibilnom izvoru se navodi broj Srba od 5 hiljada em za ovu višu cifru od 15 hiljada se koristi potpuno neodređena sintagma "sa naših prostora" što nužno se ne mora odnositi na Srbe.
Oko nekih suštinskih stvari i dalje se ne slažemo.
1. Ne mogu da shvatim i prihvatim princip stavljanja nezvaničnih podataka tik uz zvanične podatke dobijene na regularno odrađenim popisima. Zvaničan podatak i nezvanična procena prosto ne mogu imati jednak tretman, to je ono što pokušavam da objasnim. Ako već postoji potreba za stavljanjem nezvaničnih procena, one bi trebale biti navedene u fusnoti, nikako drugačije. I tu kontra-argument s pominjanjem prakse kod Hrvata, Bugara i ostalih nije relevantan, jer isto tako postoji drugačija praksa poput članka o Slovacima gde se sledi princip koju zagovaram da ga se držimo i kod nas. Druga je stvar kod zemalja koje ne vode statistiku o etnicitetima (poput Francuske) i gde je stavljanje nezvaničnih procena opravdano.
2. Ne mogu se takođe složiti sa stavom da se treba staviti u tabeli staviti cifra govornika srpskog jezika kao maternjeg u Crnoj Gori. Adekvatno mesto za to eventualno može biti fusnota kao što je bilo do pre koji dan (u međuvremenu je i to pomerneo u tabelu), mada je i to svojevrsno natezanje iz razloga što ovo nije članak o jeziku niti je tabela u ovom članku tabela o jezičkoj statistici. Takvim statistikama je mesto u članku o srpskom jeziku a ne Srbima kao narodu. Složiću se s tobom o genezi crnogorske nacije, tu su stvari jasne, ali statistika i cifre nisu stvari preko kojih se to treba prebijati. Opet za to postoje prikladni članci na Vikipediji, od članka o Crnogorcima pa nadalje... Kategorija "Srbi-Crnogorci" i "Crnogorci-Srbi" su statistički zanemarljive, jedna ima hiljadu i nešto a druga par stotina tako izjašnjenih, mogu se i oni navesti u fusnoti, ali ne vidim neki preterani razlog. Prosto, ne treba se gubiti i ići u širinunego se fokusirano držati cifre onih koji su se etnički izjasnili kao Srbi, bez ikakvih dodataka i odbitaka, prosto i jasno kao Srbi. Sve ostalo je zaglibljivanje u mulj proizvoljnosti i ličnih tumačenja.
3. Bojim se da upadaš u proizvoljnost kad dozvoljavaš sebi da pored lako dostupnih statistika licitiraš sa brojem Srba u Jugoslaviji od 9-9,5 miliona. To naprosto nije tačno! Srba je u SFRJ 1991. bilo 8,527 miliona (taj i svi raniji popisi su rađeni po staroj metodologiji, koja je ubrajala i nerezidentno stanovništvo tj. privremeno odsutna lica; stalno prisutnih Srba je verovatno bilo koja stotina hiljada manje, verovatno oko 8,2 miliona; imaš podatak RZS-a da je Srba u Srbiji bez Kosova stalno pristunih bilo 6,054 miliona 1991. godine iako je po tada važećoj metodologiji popisano 6,252 miliona, znači samo u Srbiji je po tom osnovu razlika od 200 hiljada, a gde su druge republike!?), 1981. 8,136 miliona a 1971. 8,147 miliona. Znači za jedno milion do milion i po manje od pretpostavki na osnovu kojih ti i kolege koje navodiš temeljite svoje procene o ukupnom broju Srba u svetu (jednako preterivanje kao i ovo sa sa Srbima na prostorima Ex-YU, gornja granica svih Srba u svetu je svakako 10 miliona, a verovatno danas bliža cifri od 9,5 miliona). I opet kao svojevrsno opravdanje za tako nešto navodiš šta rade Hrvati?! To nije nikakav argument šta rade drugi, pa ako oni rade krivo, ajmo da ih sledimo u tome. Na stranu moje lično mišljenje da Hrvati kao takvi od nas Srba treba da dobiju samo ignorisanje a ne pridavanje (nepotrebne i kontraproduktivne) pažnje, ili još gore ugledati se na njih. Meni to deluje pomalo detinjasto, prosto neozbiljno za projekat kakav je Vikipedija.
4. Izvor za S.A.D. može biti samo i isključivo Popisni biro S.A.D. a oni imaju dve, za nas, relevantne cifre: oni koji su se izjasnili da su srpskog porekla i oni koji su se izjasnili da su jugoslovenskog porekla (za koje se opravdano može smatrati da većinski jesu srpskog etničkog porekla). To su zvanične cifre, svaka čast Timu Džudi ali on nije demograf po profesiji nego novinar koji je u svojim knjigama imao porpilično neobjektivan (prema Srbima, dabome) i nenaučan pristup materiji ratova na prostoru bivše Jugoslavije. Relevantnost - nula, zero, nada... Takođe, ne znam koliko si upoznat, ali na američkom popisu imaš rubriku "ancestry" (etničko poreklo) i to je potpuno druga stvar od stavke "race", dakle američki popisi su itekako zasnovani i na etničkom poreklu. Melting pot za ovu našu priču nije relevantan, jer dok postoji nečija svest o svom etničkom poreklu on je i vidljiv za ovakve statistike - onaj koji nema takvu svest i ne može se po bilo kom osnovu smatrati ili uopšte na naučan način utvrditi pripadnikom neke nacije, u ovom slučaju Srba. Isti princip važi i za Kanadu i Australiju.
Eto, toliko za sad, ja ću se i dalje suzdržati od uređivanja, čekajući da vidim tvoj odgovor i procenim da li eventualna nova argumentacija je dovoljno dobra da bih je prihvatio (kao što sam prihvatio tvoj stav o regionalnom grupisanju). Čekajući tvoj odgovor, imaš pozdrav Klačko ( talk) 21:28, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
Zaboravih da se osvrnem na dilemu oko Srbije i BiH. Srbija je u Ustavu definisana, osim kao nacionalna država srpskog naroda (u "Osnovnim načelima") i kao matična država srpskog naroda (u jednom od članova koji se odnosi na saradnju sa Srbima u regionu i dijasporom). Dakle, u njavišem aktu zemlje. BiH istorijski jeste srpska zemlja, ali danas je to država u kojem su Srbi konstitutivan narod, tako piše u Ustavu. Treba se toga držati i u tabeli, bez izjednačavanja sa Srbijom ipak.
Sad videh da je u međuvremenu neko vratio one moje izmene, istomišljenik verovatno:)
Klačko ( talk) 21:43, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
1. Neozbiljno je kao argument navoditi primer utakmice u Emiratima. Nije isto "5.000 Srba" i do "15.000 ljudi sa naših prostora". Prvo se može odnositi samo na Srbe, a drugo može uključivati narode na širem prostoru, pre svega ex-YU za koji se danas najviše i koristi ta sintagma "naši/ovi prostori". Izvlačiti iz toga zaključak da se pretpostavlja da su Srbi je prosto neosnovano. Iz izvora koji stoji može se izvući zaključak o 5.000 Srba i ništa više. Sve ostalo je puka špekulacija.
2. Šta konkretno znači "sam Vašington je pomenuo da je Čikago grad sa 350-500 hiljada Srba"? Šta podrazumevaš pod Vašington, gde je taj izvor, jel može neki link? O našoj ambasadi tek ne bih, i inače slušajući našu vladu i zvaničnike ne bih ništa uzimao zdravo za gotovo. Istima su puna usta o Beogradu kao dvomilionskom gradu, iako administrativno ima 1,6 miliona a sam grad-naselje 1,2 miliona. Stoga se treba držati zvanične statistike i popisa. Suštinski, ovde vidim sukob dve koncepcije, dva poimanja. Jedan je moj, restriktivniji i konzervativniji, koji je za to da se držimo samo kredibilnih izvora (gde postoje, a u slučaju S.A.D. postoje, to su popis i Popisni biro S.A.D.), a drugi je tvoj liberalniji i fleksibilniji, koji prilično nekritički preuzima izvore koji se mogu naći na netu. A ako bi nekritički se držali izvora na netu, mogli bismo odmah napraviti i infoboks u članku o vanzemaljcima gde bi naveli da ih ima nekoliko hiljada koji trenutno obitavaju na planeti Zemlji, ili u članku o Kenediju da izbrišemo da je Kenedi mrtav jer ima mali milion članaka na internetu gde se tvrdi da je živ, itd. Nadam se da razumeš moju poentu.
3. Moj otac je rođen u Crnoj Gori i vučem poreklo iz tih krajeva i dobro su mi poznata ta nijansiranja i laviranja, i nastanak nove crnogorske nacije 1945. godine. Ali da ne bih širio previše priču, sve se svodi na ono o čemu sam i u ranijem odgovoru pisao. Jedno su Crnogorci koji se nacionalno osećaju kao Crnogorci, a drugo su Crnogorci koji se regionalno osećaju Crnogorcima a nacionalno Srbima. Prvi za sebe ne misle da su Srbi, jer da misle ništa lakše nego da se izjasne Srbima. Oni to nisu učinili i tu prosto nema prostora za bilo kakvu proizvoljnost u vidu veće procene/estimacije. Drugi za sebe misle da su Srbi, a Crnogorac im je regionalna odrednica, kao što je Šumadincu regionalan odrednica Šumadinac a nacionalna Srbin, ili Hercegovcu, Krajišniku, Vojvođaninu, itd.
4. Za ukupan broj Srba i dalje se ne slažem, ne može se kao osnov uzimati proizvoljni zbir Srba + ljudi koji su se izjasnili kao Jugosloveni i Crnogorci. Dobar deo Jugoslovena i skoro svi Crnogorci jesu srpskog porekla i korena, nesporno, ali nisu Srbi jer se tako ne osećaju, da su se osećali izjasnili bi se kao Srbi. Prosto ne možeš nijednom naučnom metodom opravdati njihovo pridodavanje Srbima, možemo samo pretpostavljati i tu bih se složio sa tobom da se radi o ljudima srpskog porekla (mada se uglavnom radilo o ljudima iz mešanih brakova, pričam za Jugoslovene), ali ako se čovek tako ne izjašnjava - tu je kraj. Demografija je slepa naučna disciplina, za nju postoje samo suve cifre, sve ostalo se treba ostaviti istoriji gde se treba objasniti geneza i Jugoslovena i Crnogoraca kao nacije koji su nesumnjivo nastali od Srba. Ponavljam, to je za istoriju koja bi objasnila i protumačila te procese prelaska iz srpske u neku novu (veštačku) naciju, to nije stvar demografije koja treba samo da prezentira cifre. S druge strane, prihvatam tvoj argument za korišćenjem izvora sa većom estimacijom obrazlaganjem da se ostavi svakom na izbor za koju cifru i izvor će se opredeliti i verovati, neka se navedu svi. To je ok, s tim što bih donju cifru korigovao na oko 10 miliona jer je to najpribližnije stvarnom stanju.
5. Ne slažem se ni za broj Srba u Americi. Prosto imaš dve cifre: oni koji su se izjasnili srpskog i oni koji su se izjasnili jugoslovenskog porekla (koji su većinski Srbi). Mislim da bi se mogli naći na tome da se u fusnotama stavi ta cifra koju pominješ od našeg Ministartsva (sada kancelarije) za dijasporu od 800k-1 milion ljudi srpskog porekla u S.A.D. sa ili bez ove cifre za ljude koji su se izjasnili da su jugoslovenskog porekla. I dalje mislim da je taj izvor nekredibilan jer ne vidim na osnovu čega i kojim metodom su uradili tu procenu, al ajde...
6. Srbija je u svom ustavu definsiana kao "nacionalna država srpskog naroda i drugih naroda koji u njoj žive". BiH je u svom ustavu definisana kao "država Bošnjaka, Srba i Hrvata i svih ostalih građana koji u njoj žive". Primećuješ razliku? U Srbiji su Srbi jasno izdvojeni i naglašeno je da je to nacionalna država srpskog naroda, a u BiH konstitutivni status Srbi dele sa još dva naroda. Uz to Srbija je u svom ustavu definisana kao "država-matica Srba u regionu", tako nešto nema u slučaju BiH. Ali na stranu suvoparni paragrafi (iako sam pravnik po struci), realnost je da Srbija je danas država u kojoj živi 80% Srba na prostorima gde smo autohtoni (to su prostori Balkana), da je to jedina država gde smo kao narod većina (apsolutna). Sve to preteže da Srbija bude jasno izdvojena u odnosu na druge u infoboksu, pa i BiH. Uostalom, kad se već pozivaš na praksu kod drugih članaka, onda ćeš videti da je i kod maltene svih izdvojena jedna država, država-matica. Eto i ti Hrvati koje uzimaš za primer, i oni BiH ne izdvajaju iako i njihovi sunarodnici imaju nominalno isti status u BiH kao i naši ljudi tamo.
7. Stalno se pozivaš na neki konsenzus, ja sam pažljivo isčitao Talk stranicu i nisam to primetio, niti tako nešto uopšte može postojati - postoje istiniti i relevantni podaci i neistiniti i nerelevantni podaci. Izvori su se dodavali i brisali, cifre su se menjale, bilo je oko toga diskusije ali nisam video da tu postoji neka šira saglasnost. Prosto, kako je ko uređivao, tako je dodavao/oduzimao nešto svoje. Vikipedija-članci nisu zamišljeni kao nešto što je od sad pa zanavek uklesano u kamen, nepodložno izmenama, jer da jeste, ne bi postojala opcija "Edit". Ako neko iznese drugačije podatke i iznese valjanu argumentaciju koja to potkrepljuje, to nije suprotno već u skladu sa pravilima ovog projekta i doprinosi poboljšanju kvaliteta i verodostojnosti članaka. Primetio sam doduše pojačanu aktivnost Hrvata na ovoj stranici, tu se slažem, doduše nisam znao da je onaj lik na kog sam se referisao Hrvat. On je vratio moje izmene (sa sve regionalnim grupisanjem), a Ruby Murray mu je izbrisao ne zbog nekog konsensuza na koji se ti pozivaš nego zato što ovaj nije dao objašnjenje i argumentovao svoje izmene.
Sve u svemu, oko nekih stvari smo se na kraju složili, oko nekih ne, pa da se više ne bi vrteli u krug, ja ću u narednih par dana editovati infoboks na način za koji smatram da će poboljšati kvalitet i relevantnost istog (prihvatajući neke od tvojih argumenata i držeći se kompromisa do kojih smo došli, a za ostatak tj. stvari oko kojih se nismo složili, ću te zamoliti da se suzdržiš od editovanja mojih unosa, bar na neko vreme dok ne vidimo rekaciju ostalih). Svoje izmene ću detaljno obrazložiti na Talk-u i svako će imati priliku da iste pobije i ponudi bolje, pouzdanije i relevantnije podatke i izvore kao i metode preko kojih su do istih došli. Rado ću prodiskutovati o svemu na Talk-u članka Serbs. Prosto da dozvolimo i čujemo mišljenje drugih, možda ljudi bolje prihvate te izmene, a ako budu bili protiv, to će se jasno i vrlo brzo videti. Ja sam u vezi ovog spreman da idem do kraja jer zaista verujem da članak Serbs tj. njegov infoboks ima prostora za boljitak, što sam spreman da podrobno argumentujem, a ako situacija postane problematična, treba videti i sa administratorima i uključiti ih u celu priču.
Pozdrav! Klačko ( talk) 12:47, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Napisao sam ti par stvari na mojoj stranici. Pozdrav Klačko ( talk) 20:35, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
We will just go round and round.I don't have a problem with you.You can leave 10-12 mil if u ask me.I'm not reverting anything on Serbs article because i will just get into a war with someone ove a few stupid things.That's why i don't like that way Sokac sometimes act but i can't do anything.Just don't go to Croats article if you have problems with Sokac on Serbs article.That is not the way.We will never come to conclusion over something that is related to Serbs and CroatsScrosby85 01:11, 16 December 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrosby85 ( talk • contribs)
There is no other way im afraid Scrosby85 ( talk. Šokac is playing a fool, starting same edit wars with same arguments over and over again, as he did whole past year. He is clearly fighting for a smaller number of Serbs by his violent forcible acts. If he continues to canvass other croatian editors to attack Serbs article and defend Croats article and act blind or depth just as if nobody didnt aproove his actions or sources or arguments in the past and continues to do same thing over and over again with the "rape" of numbers. I am afraid i will be forced to do something in return and we will have a real edit war going on both sides, because there simply is no therapy for this deasese of his, which is called the "anti-Serbian syndrom". ( Правичност ( talk) 22:00, 28 February 2014 (UTC))
Hello. Due to the constitution of Republika Srpska ( http://skupstinabd.ba/ustavi/rs/ustav_hrvatski.pdf), capital city of Republika Srpska is Sarajevo, not Banja Luka!-- Munich 2013 ( talk) 14:36, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
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There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Shokatz ( talk) 14:27, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you. Shokatz ( talk) 10:46, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
Please stop breaking the rules of Wikipedia 3RR [9] in Article Serbs.-- Šokac121 ℗ 20:09, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Hello Pravičnost. I saw you worked at articles about Serbs. I added some famous people into infobox on pages Serbian American, Serbian Australian, Serbs in Germany and Serbs in the United Kingdom. Plus, i made some pages about their other diaspora countries: Serbian Argentine, Ukrainian Serbs and Serbian Russians, and if you have some info of their history, add it. -- MisterBean ( talk) 14:32, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
Hello Mr. Bean im sorry for a several years late reply, i stopped working on wikipedia long time ago, came here just to "retire", and yes i saw those articles and edits, you`ve done a good job :) Pozdrav ( Правичност ( talk) 22:53, 10 September 2017 (UTC))
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Hello, Правичност. Voting in the 2017 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 10 December. All users who registered an account before Saturday, 28 October 2017, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Wednesday, 1 November 2017 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.
The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
If you wish to participate in the 2017 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 18:42, 3 December 2017 (UTC)