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Some questions, though, are outside the scope of this particular page. Should we drive to 1.0? Should we strive to create a paper-friendly version? These are interesting questions, I suppose, but outside the scope of what I want to do here, which is to assume that the answers to those are affirmative.
Please note: I plan to refactor this page heavily as we go along! I intend for this to be somewhere between an 'unowned' wiki page and a 'personal' page of mine. Please don't be offended, and if you have a personal rant you'd like to include (and please do!), possibly it will be best to put it in your own userspace and just link it from here.
I may also sometimes post versions of this to the mailing list.
Some of the basic ideas that I've had so far:
(With those last three done, if we don't have a real map, we can generate one. There are examples of this on m:Maps).
OK, I just discovered Wikipedia:Wikipedia_maintenance...a link to there or to Wikipedia:Most_wanted_articles etc. from Special:Wantedpages might be good for future navigators. (I would add it myself, but this page isn't editable.) This takes care of many of my previous comments...
Browsing around these many manually maintained lists (these pages need copy editing, these others need expansion, these over here need NPOV, this is a list of all the images in Wikipedia, etc.), it seems a little automation might be helpful. That might be accomplished with a Maintenance Status / Ratings section for each article, perhaps at the top or bottom of the Talk page. People could come by and either flip switches "In need of copy editing", "NPOV problem", "not in English", etc. These could be used to automatically generate lists, and could be unflipped when they are fixed.
For more subjective issues, like organization, completeness, quality, etc., you might take numerical ratings from passersby and display the average over the past N weeks, or reset when there are major changes, or something.
Looking at these statistics across articles might give a better idea of how mature various areas of the Wikipedia are. Automating certain list-making tasks would also free up more human labor for actual writing and editing.
-- Beland
They seems to be a lot of holes in the topics about medicine -- Youssefsan 17:29, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
What's this about "approving" articles? How is this supposed to work? -- Wik 17:46, Aug 20, 2003 (UTC)
I still think a CD 1.0 and a paper 1.0 would be very different beasts. On a CD, it woulnd't matter too much if we had as much material on The Simpsons as we had on medicine (say). On paper, it would be more noticeable. I personally would like to involved in a the work on a paper edition -- a one-volume edition, which would require a fair amount of trimming in some areas, and some late-night cramming in others -- Tarquin 19:16, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
One subject that needs a thorough think-thru is the links to nonexistent articles. There are several points that we should consider:
...which seem all to belong in Wikipedia:link editing
I guess you could consider me obsessed about links. -- llywrch 21:39, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
One thing to consider about a print version is the order of the articles. Obviously we can't just alphabetize the titles as they are, and thereby list people under their first name. --
Wik 22:09, Aug 20, 2003 (UTC)
-- Nichtich
Gutza's rant -- Gutza 22:33, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I think one of our prime foci for this should be organization... the sheer volume of data kets bulky. Let's not forget many versions of EB have Index to the Index as a separate (multi-hundred-page) volume. I'd like to see a few categorical sub-pedias, for example, off the top of my head:
There's a lot more of these I can think of... I'll write it up in full as a personal subpage and link here soonish. -- Jake 04:06, 2003 Aug 21 (UTC)
I'm majorly in favor of making a paper version of "Wikipedia: World History" or "Wikipedia: Quantum mechanics" or something like that before going ahead with the full effort because it will help us decide whether we want to do it at all and if so, what is required to do, without sidetracking too much effort from the main project. -- Arvindn 05:12, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Jimbo, I love the idea of a 1.0 release. It gives us a real focus and impetus. However, I'm not sure about the priority you place on a print release.
Firstly, printing a complete set would surely have a very high cost per copy. One would almost wonder whether it would be cheaper to give worthy recipients a second-hand computer to run a "Wikipedia-disc" on than print the complete volumes!
Secondly, to get an encyclopedia edited down to manageable size with some semblance of balanced coverage will be a very considerable task, requiring many longer articles to be truncated. This will require skilful editors. If the same long-time respected contributors to the Wikipedia spend their time working on the 1.0 release, the state of the live Wikipedia will inevitably suffer.
Thirdly, some of our articles use complex HTML layouts, and many have images of variable sizes and quality. Converting these into a form suitable for printing may be difficult, or in many cases impossible, and will require some expertise in print graphics which is of course available but possibly not amongst Wikipedia's current contributor base.
So, all in all, I wonder whether the very considerable extra effort required to produce a 1.0 print edition is worth it. At the very least, I would argue we should aim for a "0.9 CD-only" edition first.
Another issue is whether we can find funding to pay people to do some of the grunt work of putting 1.0 together. -- Robert Merkel 06:00, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I doubt if all the stuff on the cities belongs in a paper 1.0 (or even a CD, takes up space). If Random page hits a city page that often (try it, betcha it'll reach a city page) flipping through the paper version should also bring up these Rambot entries, and that's not a good thing. Also redirects and stubs...hey, can a bot be written to turn redirects into pipe links, except for those specially marked not to be changed? Geoffrey 01:10, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I think something to consider is some automated assistance with fact checking. In a pinch we could simply use a standard name off the talk page to record our observations. More ideally we could have a standard format wiki page to record work on. It would have data entry fields for facts/statements, assessment, source, etc. This would quickly improve our overall quality by allowing large teams of people (including neophytes) dissect an existing article and document the correct facts and sources of verification while removing detected errors. This would be useful to both the online Wikipedia development process as well as the push for 1.0 release. user:mirwin
I support what you call 1.0 because it provides some focus, an endpoint, and an opportunity for proper editing that presently does not exist. Leaving aside markup, format conversion, and other strictly mechanical issues, there is a need for:
These are valuable mechanisms independent of 1.0 and independent of whether 1.0 is primarily geared towards a print or CD-rom distribution.
I offer the observation that a points-based review system such as that used at slashdot is both weak and a poor fit for the Wiki workflow model. There is too much potential to "game" the system where points are involved and it does nothing to satisfy a skeptical reader about an articles quality. I suggest a more freeform approach, where reviewers can approve content in one of several categories, to wit:
Ideally there would be software support for this, with boxes for yes, no, no opinion, along with user names such that we might see an article with a list of reviewers, dates, and revisions reviewed; should we see that prominent Wikipedians have covered all areas we would conclude an article leaves little room for improvement. Then we might have a search feature where we can look for articles that are unreviewed, and ideally we could each choose which reviewers we wish to consider when so doing. I would think that the reviews would be tied to a particular revision. Perhaps also follow-on reviewers could assert that changes made since a certain revision are minor and appropriate.
There must be some means of categorization, so that we can mark those articles that will never be suitable for a print edition, and perhaps also so we can mark those articles that are by consensus considered complete for 1.0.
There will also be a need to mark which revision is considered most suitable for print publication. Exactly how this is done is likely to prove contentious, but the fact remains that we will need to freeze some articles when they are good enough and sufficiently reviewed, while still working on others. We may be best served by making these markers relatively easy to move at first, with increasing difficulty of movement as we reach closure.
Kat 21:14, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I advocate strongly for a version on cd-rom even if require 2 or 3 cd-roms and must be installed on a HD to be usable (this doens't exclude a DVD version). DVD burners are not very common and even DVD readers are not very common in third world countries where many people would be interrested by a free encyclopedia. Ericd 20:12, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)
As some articles use complex HTML layout a distribution in HTML seems obvious to me but how to implement a search feature ? Ericd 23:15, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)
As a suggestion to refactor, consider combining the discussion of "approval versus scoring versus disapproval/vote" for articles with that already in Wikipedia:approval_mechanism.
And, for the discussion of "who should be allowed to participate" or "whose votes to count" or "what differential on scoring should apply for trusted contributors versus known trolls versus anonymous IP numbers", a quite different issue, I'd suggest moving the stuff on Advogato (not a great model BTW) to Wikipedia:trust model (or to a talk file on that subject first).
Then anything regarding self-funding or donation options or payments that keep the process going, such as RK's suggestion to sell paperback compilations, can go to Wikipedia:revenue model (or to a talk file on that subject first).
There are meta: references on all of these, but to put something in the [[Wikipedia:]] space is a signal that some decisions are about to be made.
With those three hived off as separate problems the question of "what to include" or "how to deliver" or "what timelines" are easier to consider.
Hope this helps. EofT
Also, there is now a Wikipedia:list of central issues to compliment the Wikipedia:list of controversial issues and Wikipedia:Sysop reading list to make it a bit easier to find the connections between community (which is not part of a CD-ROM version obviously) and the encyclopedia as a work of writing. These will aid the push to 1.0 by helping differentiate content from community. As 1.0 is "content", we need a separate (maybe distracting) thing for the "community" to pay attention to, that will ultimately pay off as better streamlined ways to deal with content. EofT
Obviously, refactor any of the above as you like when you do the "push" page. They're just suggestions. But planning a parallel push to get the community to read and understand the central issues and come to agreements on them, may be more important to the content plan than you think. EofT
I have a strange feeling with this part of this article is just someone taking[sic] fun of us.
It was added on 11:54, 26 Aug 2003 by 213.105.87.216 even without signing. See http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User:Jimbo_Wales/Pushing_To_1.0&diff=1347479&oldid=1347394
Was this just a troll making fun of us? When I first read this page, I thought, Jimmy wrote this. Then I thought... NO, this can not be. But people took this comment serious. What happened here?
If someone could clarify who/why this was added/commentet/taken serious, please let know. Thanks, Fantasy 15:30, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)
What should be excluded. First a sweeping statement - the majority of wikipedia articles are irredeemiably[sic] trivial or otherwise lacking and should not be included in 1.0, no matter how well they are written.
Below is a list of areas that should be excluded unless the sublect in question is particularly famous or a landmark in the field. As you look through the list you will clearly not agreed[sic] but please keep the preceeding[sic] sentence in mind.
Articles that should not be in 1.0
Articles derived from Federal Standard 1037C or similar
I'm tempted to include all Israel-Palestine articles.
There are more I'm sure and a lot of articles could be substantially edited - while you could include the Simpsons, as being famous, the article could be reduced enormously and all seperate Simpsons related material dropped.
Everything that is considered "good" should be in wikipedia 1.0 implementing a process to sort articles will add a step and consume time. What is the problem if someone has writen a article on a unkown book ? This article may even the best thing ever written on that book. I think that Wikipedia will always be different from other encyclopedia[sic]. IMO we have only one priority find a efficient way to exclude the worses[sic] articles for Wikipedia 1.0. IMO a quick and efficient solution will be a veto system with motivated veto a slogan like "don't be afraid to veto and article". Ericd 22:23, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
This is also IMO in contradiction with the spirit or Wikipedia.
Just as a bit of fun, I tried to do a mockup of what a Paper Wikipedia article might look like... Media:PaperWikipediaMockup.jpg (Warning, large picture) Matthewmayer
Why don't we leave this task to someone else? Draw a parallel with Linux: the developers are not the distributors. If we work to make Wikipedia as good as it can be, then sooner or later the profit motive will draw in redistributors to exploit the heck out of it.
All we should do is make Wikipedia as redistributable as possible - for starters, that means going to all the Wikipedia:sites that use Wikipedia content and asking them what we could do to make their lives easier and Wikipedia more redistributable. Martin 14:57, 5 Sep 2003 (UTC)
There is currently a page comparing the size of Wikipedia against other encyclopedias, but I'd like to post some results comparing the coverage, quality and organization methods of different 'pedias. There was some talk in Aug 2003 about comparisons against Britannica, but does a page exist for this yet? I could not find any.
One benefit is the ability to benchmark the 1.0 topic lists against ones from other pedias, and also to test the quality of Wikipedia against others. Fuzheado 00:32, 15 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I am a little concerned about the proposed launch date of Dec. 2004.
My comments are limited to the business and economics sections of the 'pedia because these are the only areas I can speak on with any authority. When I look at the 750 or so articles in this section, I see a work in progress. There are a lot of problems with incomplete articles, missing articles, inaccuracies, and NPOV. The best developed sections are the 248 economics articles and the 192 marketing articles, most of which are of reasonable quality. But when we get into other areas, we have problems. Of the 48 human resource management articles, about 30 of them are stubs. Of the 149 finance articles, about 80 are stubs. Of the 58 information technology articles, about 25 are stubs. We have about the same ratios for the 59 business law articles, the 69 accounting articles, and the 71 management articles. The 25 production articles are fairly good, but many more articles are needed to fill in this topic. Many of the 39 business ethics articles have questionable NPOV.
My concern is that this section of the 'opedia has a long way to go before it will be taken seriously by academia. As best as I can tell there are about a dozen of us doing substantive work on this section (by "substantive" I mean to exclude copy editors and formatting). Fifteen months does not give us enough time to get Wiki' up to a level that would be useful at the undergrad level. If we launch prematurely, we may do irreversible dammage to the reputation of the 'pedia. mydogategodshat 09:27, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Will we ever be truly ready? I personally don't see any need to produce a static version, except for long-term archival purposes (to say, every year, burn the entire article space on a solid medium and submit to the Library of Congress and comparable archives). It just rubs me the wrong way; Wikipedia is as much a process as a product. As the wired world expands towards 100% percent of the human population, the *need* for static, distributable copies will decrease (as access to the online version becomes easier), and by diverting the efforts of valuable contributors to a project that will be (necessarily) incomplete and rapidly out of date. Just my two cents... Seth Ilys 04:33, 15 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I think that the time is fast approaching when we should make a start, and see how our best theories translate to practice. My suggestion is that we set up a volunteer editorial board (perhaps call it Wikipedia 0.1 for now so as not to raise false hopes or needlessly consume name space) and some means of them working and see what they can come up with. For one form of infrastructure to support them see my proposal m:referees#Baselining. This article on the Meta assumes that a form of article review should be implemented before trying to develop static versions of Wikipedia, and I still think this is the best way to go, but I'm very interested in other views on this and it could work either way. Andrewa 14:59, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I have said this else where but I will say it here also. We should use recycled materials for Wikipedia 1.0. If it is published on paper we should use 100% recycle paper. (the quality of it now is excellent, i have some so trust me.) see: [3]. If it is published on CD-RW's or DVD-RW's you can (i dont know where) get recycled ones. "Wikipedia 1.0 the first "Green" Encylopeadia". -fonzy
Wikipedia is an excellent resource because it is not restrained in size or content. It's the only reference in the world where you can find not only important things like "China," but trivial things like "Klingon." The point being, it is fundamentally different from EB because it is not a summary of the most important knowledge, but aims to be a compendium of ALL knowledge. Culling only the most 'significant' articles from it (i.e., getting rid of pop-culture entries) would significantly diminish its value. Not to mention, what's the point? Wikipedia is already available online- are there that many people who have CD-ROM drives but not internet access? A book might look nice on your coffee table, but why would you refer to it when a fuller reference, fully searchable, is available on your PC? Not to mention, Wikipedia 1.0 would be uneditable and static, the absolute antithesis of www.wikipedia.org. I agree that the project needs goals of "completeness," and in fact probably should have a "1.0" in the works, but why do it in a format that negates the best of wikipedia?
But I agree that it's arguable. ilya 06:49, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Whether we distribute 1.0 as a CD, DVD, in printed form, or even via audio, it seems likely to expose Wikimedia to significant new liability for copyright violations. Currently, Wikipedia is largely shielded by OCILLA, which protects us as long as we promptly take down any infringing material when the copyright holder complains to our designated agent (the individual contributor responsible isn't protected, but I doubt anybody's coming after them). But OCILLA or the CDA only protect Wikipedia on the Internet; once we move into other media, Wikimedia could be looking at lawsuits.
In part it depends on the approach we take to creating 1.0. If it's just a snapshot of all Wikipedia content as of X date, that's problematic. I don't think you can argue that we don't have infringing material present at any given moment. So we'd basically be inviting litigation.
Alternatively, 1.0 could be screened for possible violations, with only clean articles included. But even so, we could easily miss significant violations that are too subtle for whoever does the screening. Also, we have to keep in mind that fair use will not necessarily protect us everywhere that we might distribute. So it would require closer scrutiny than we currently tend to give our content. -- Michael Snow 01:05, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)
One thing we should try to do is document our sources. If you contribute a paragraph or two, add something to the references section stating where you researched that information. I admit I sometimes don't bother to do this myself, but it's useful for reasons other than showing copyright compliance as well. Anthony DiPierro 01:39, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
FYI, this article from the Independent (UK) should probably get this conversation started again.
Fuzheado 01:08, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
After I have published the first printed Wikipedia:WikiReader I can speak of some experience. Hardest thing is to sell it. I have sold something like 200 copies in two weeks, not very much. And I'm facing some very hard resistance on advertising for the WikiReader on the de:Hauptseite and normal article-namespace. So, be prepared to face some very hard resistance if you want to advertise it within Wikipedia. -- TomK32 21:12, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I was thinking about what would happen if it was discovered that a copyright infringement was included on a CD version of Wikipedia. I think any software we do should automatically look for an internet connection and, if it detects one, check for any such copyright alerts. If there is a reported copyright infringement, the software could download a designated replacement article/picture to the hard drive to use in its place, or restrict access to it altogether.
I have also been thinking about all this on the assumption that the Wikipedia 1.0 in its CD version is a piece of software native to a particular operating system. How would we select these operating systems? Windows is a must, and people would be angry if it did not run on Linux. Macs have a lot of users too. How would we accomplish this? Write it all in Java??
Now, I come to the issue of selecting which articles (and which versions of articles) should be included. I think there should be an automatically generated (but only 1000 articles or so in size) list of the most frequently visited - and edited - articles. Is this possible? I know there is a kind of hit-meter built into the MediaWiki software, but it might have been disabled on Wikipedia. Anyway, so we have a list of the most popular articles. That list would be a good starting point for the things people would be looking for in the CD version of the 'pedia. From there, we can remove articles and add all the others which should be included.
I propose that all admins (and stewards etc) should have the ability to do the page/version selection thing (possibly by a selectable icon in the Page History). I also suggest that there be a new class of user created called "scrutineer" or something, whose only special ability above normal users is to select these articles.
I think the software will have to be engaging. To be able to compete with Britannica and Encarta requires a *LOT* of multimedia, flashy graphics and features.
My final thought is on the name of the publication/CD. I absolutely hate "Wikipedia 1.0" as a name, even as a working name. I much prefer "Wikipedia 2005" or something like that, because it emphasises that it is a work-in-progress, a snapshot in time rather than an evolving thing like the main Wikipedia website. "1.0" suggests a final release, and I think it would be conceited to think this initial Wikipedia release will be a complete work. Of course there will be problems and mistakes.
I hope someone takes the time to read this. I'm really interested in the push towards 1.0 and want to help as much as possible, even if it means giving up most of my editing on the main 'pedia. - Mark 10:32, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I see mention in other places of an 'Africa' story. Just to let you know, I have put down at Nansindlela school [4] in Ingwavuma a digital snapshot of Wikipedia - currently text-only, but, courtesy Brian Vibber, soon pictures as well. I just have to visit there again .. somewhat far from Cape Town .. I think Digital is feasible, and way better. Wizzy
I happen to love this idea, first off. Second off, perhaps I'm jumping to far ahead here, but these are the thoughts I came up with. I'm also not on the mailing lists, so perhaps these have already been discussed, but I figure, if I put them here, at least someone may read them.
This is highly ambitious, and I think before discussing a lot of the technical issues, how to convert things, what amount of articles are needed, etc[.], etc[.], there needs to be some semblance of organization.
First off, what exactly is the plan? Mention has been made of a print edition, an english CD, an other languages (with simple english) CD, a DVD with all of them, a two CD set, etc[.] etc. For the purposes of this discussion, I'll assume a print edition, the english CD, and the other languages CD.
How would we go about this? First off, I think you need to look at the timing, which was mentioned above. I see it working something like: The English CD is the first to be done. It's the easiest for sevearl reasons: Wiki --> CD is easier than wiki --> Paper, and less culling of articles. Set this to happen every two years. On the second year, do the other languages CD. This requires a bit more work (more languages, coordination, etc[.]), but with the experience gained from the English CD, should be easy enough. WIth this two year staggered system, it also allows for 6 month quarterly "updates". This is a long enough period of time to actually have a significant change in content, while also allowing to show some of the "transient" nature of wikipedia.
The print edition is harder. Every year? Every two years? Either way, it needs to be done after the english[sic] CD. First, I assume that we'll have gained experience like I said above, and be able to have some organization for the print edition. Also, it gives time to find the appropiate services/programs/etc[.] to take on the task of transferring wiki to a paper edition. I assume we have more programmers in wikipedia than we do bookbinders ;).
Secondly, Organization. How does this go about? I see it done as assigning a committee or a few main people, like caretakers, to each of the three projects. That committee would be answerable to the foundation board. They would be responsible for creating a set timeline, identification of what was needed, and perhaps recruiting whoever[sic] they need to add in the project.
The OL languages group would probably need to have at least one person per smaller language, and 2-3 per larger, to be on hand for this group.
For the print version, one thing the caretakers should be responsible for is recruiting editors for each of the "topical" areas, like Biology, Mathematics, etc[.], etc. Those in turn would recruit a few editors for their sections.
I'd also like to point out the wikireader projects. I Happen[sic] to adore this idea,[sic] I may start one myself soon, but irregardless[sic], these seem to be a good primer, and a good experiment, to see how converting to a paper encyclopedia might work, and what hitches may be found. A further effort towards workign on these might be warranted.
I may have just spouted a lot of stuff that has already been thought of, but as it was not mentioned here, I wanted to make sure that peopel didn't put the "planning" aspects ahead of the "organization" aspects.
Lyellin 09:38, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC)
I just wanted to say that when I first heard about this whole print Wikipedia thing, I immediately thought of the Mathworld debacle. I haven't read very much about the plans (who has the time?), but just be damn careful to read the fine print of any contracts you sign! - dcljr 05:54, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
One thing to watch is consistency of article layout for the print version. While the online version can tolerate variations,since only one article can be seen at a time, once it is set on a page, it needs consistency. By this I mean the order of an article > title print size, > opening paragraph, > following paras> links > references> categorisation, etc. How we handle lists, and the degree of indent etc[.] will also need attention. If we don't do this from the outset, the printed version is going to look amateurish, and be a messy read for the purchaser. Also what about a final index to it all? Apwoolrich 17:31, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I have added a possible process for upgrading pages to production quality at User talk:M.e/Production Wikipedia m.e. 12:01, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC).
I think a vote should be cast weather[sic] we should use recycled CDs\[sic]DVDs\[sic]Paper....
For
Against
Comments
IMHO, the best way to push wikipedia onto a DVD (sorry the arguments against DVD are notably dated) would be to provide a downloadable snapshot of 1.0, which can be burned/or mounted onto a hard drive.. And it would be best left as a federation of linked web-pages, albeit without the cgi/php. Importantly, one could leave links for editorship in that direct the enduser to wikipedia online. The advantage is an offline resource, that also serves as a historic record. Disadvantages are those that concern attempting to make money out of the project. DVDs could be sold with a browser, etc.
Regarding paper copy - why do it? The regression back to linear communication would lose one of the greatest assets of wikipedia - the hyperlink. The energy costs involved are high, and for what benefit? I love books - I love reading books too. But even if I had Wikipedia v1.0 on my shelf, i would never take it anywhere, and I would never use it! Why should I when I can go straight to the real one - Version "Today".
Jim et. al. - You will do what you want - this is a fantastic project, which has opened many minds to the phenomena of wikis - and wikipedia itself. These ideas here are just a bit of a rant. Signing Off.. ( 20040302 16:29, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC))Pushing To 1.0/archive]]
This page is an archive. Do not edit the contents of this page. Please direct any additional comments to the current main page. |
Some questions, though, are outside the scope of this particular page. Should we drive to 1.0? Should we strive to create a paper-friendly version? These are interesting questions, I suppose, but outside the scope of what I want to do here, which is to assume that the answers to those are affirmative.
Please note: I plan to refactor this page heavily as we go along! I intend for this to be somewhere between an 'unowned' wiki page and a 'personal' page of mine. Please don't be offended, and if you have a personal rant you'd like to include (and please do!), possibly it will be best to put it in your own userspace and just link it from here.
I may also sometimes post versions of this to the mailing list.
Some of the basic ideas that I've had so far:
(With those last three done, if we don't have a real map, we can generate one. There are examples of this on m:Maps).
OK, I just discovered Wikipedia:Wikipedia_maintenance...a link to there or to Wikipedia:Most_wanted_articles etc. from Special:Wantedpages might be good for future navigators. (I would add it myself, but this page isn't editable.) This takes care of many of my previous comments...
Browsing around these many manually maintained lists (these pages need copy editing, these others need expansion, these over here need NPOV, this is a list of all the images in Wikipedia, etc.), it seems a little automation might be helpful. That might be accomplished with a Maintenance Status / Ratings section for each article, perhaps at the top or bottom of the Talk page. People could come by and either flip switches "In need of copy editing", "NPOV problem", "not in English", etc. These could be used to automatically generate lists, and could be unflipped when they are fixed.
For more subjective issues, like organization, completeness, quality, etc., you might take numerical ratings from passersby and display the average over the past N weeks, or reset when there are major changes, or something.
Looking at these statistics across articles might give a better idea of how mature various areas of the Wikipedia are. Automating certain list-making tasks would also free up more human labor for actual writing and editing.
-- Beland
They seems to be a lot of holes in the topics about medicine -- Youssefsan 17:29, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
What's this about "approving" articles? How is this supposed to work? -- Wik 17:46, Aug 20, 2003 (UTC)
I still think a CD 1.0 and a paper 1.0 would be very different beasts. On a CD, it woulnd't matter too much if we had as much material on The Simpsons as we had on medicine (say). On paper, it would be more noticeable. I personally would like to involved in a the work on a paper edition -- a one-volume edition, which would require a fair amount of trimming in some areas, and some late-night cramming in others -- Tarquin 19:16, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
One subject that needs a thorough think-thru is the links to nonexistent articles. There are several points that we should consider:
...which seem all to belong in Wikipedia:link editing
I guess you could consider me obsessed about links. -- llywrch 21:39, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
One thing to consider about a print version is the order of the articles. Obviously we can't just alphabetize the titles as they are, and thereby list people under their first name. --
Wik 22:09, Aug 20, 2003 (UTC)
-- Nichtich
Gutza's rant -- Gutza 22:33, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I think one of our prime foci for this should be organization... the sheer volume of data kets bulky. Let's not forget many versions of EB have Index to the Index as a separate (multi-hundred-page) volume. I'd like to see a few categorical sub-pedias, for example, off the top of my head:
There's a lot more of these I can think of... I'll write it up in full as a personal subpage and link here soonish. -- Jake 04:06, 2003 Aug 21 (UTC)
I'm majorly in favor of making a paper version of "Wikipedia: World History" or "Wikipedia: Quantum mechanics" or something like that before going ahead with the full effort because it will help us decide whether we want to do it at all and if so, what is required to do, without sidetracking too much effort from the main project. -- Arvindn 05:12, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Jimbo, I love the idea of a 1.0 release. It gives us a real focus and impetus. However, I'm not sure about the priority you place on a print release.
Firstly, printing a complete set would surely have a very high cost per copy. One would almost wonder whether it would be cheaper to give worthy recipients a second-hand computer to run a "Wikipedia-disc" on than print the complete volumes!
Secondly, to get an encyclopedia edited down to manageable size with some semblance of balanced coverage will be a very considerable task, requiring many longer articles to be truncated. This will require skilful editors. If the same long-time respected contributors to the Wikipedia spend their time working on the 1.0 release, the state of the live Wikipedia will inevitably suffer.
Thirdly, some of our articles use complex HTML layouts, and many have images of variable sizes and quality. Converting these into a form suitable for printing may be difficult, or in many cases impossible, and will require some expertise in print graphics which is of course available but possibly not amongst Wikipedia's current contributor base.
So, all in all, I wonder whether the very considerable extra effort required to produce a 1.0 print edition is worth it. At the very least, I would argue we should aim for a "0.9 CD-only" edition first.
Another issue is whether we can find funding to pay people to do some of the grunt work of putting 1.0 together. -- Robert Merkel 06:00, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I doubt if all the stuff on the cities belongs in a paper 1.0 (or even a CD, takes up space). If Random page hits a city page that often (try it, betcha it'll reach a city page) flipping through the paper version should also bring up these Rambot entries, and that's not a good thing. Also redirects and stubs...hey, can a bot be written to turn redirects into pipe links, except for those specially marked not to be changed? Geoffrey 01:10, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I think something to consider is some automated assistance with fact checking. In a pinch we could simply use a standard name off the talk page to record our observations. More ideally we could have a standard format wiki page to record work on. It would have data entry fields for facts/statements, assessment, source, etc. This would quickly improve our overall quality by allowing large teams of people (including neophytes) dissect an existing article and document the correct facts and sources of verification while removing detected errors. This would be useful to both the online Wikipedia development process as well as the push for 1.0 release. user:mirwin
I support what you call 1.0 because it provides some focus, an endpoint, and an opportunity for proper editing that presently does not exist. Leaving aside markup, format conversion, and other strictly mechanical issues, there is a need for:
These are valuable mechanisms independent of 1.0 and independent of whether 1.0 is primarily geared towards a print or CD-rom distribution.
I offer the observation that a points-based review system such as that used at slashdot is both weak and a poor fit for the Wiki workflow model. There is too much potential to "game" the system where points are involved and it does nothing to satisfy a skeptical reader about an articles quality. I suggest a more freeform approach, where reviewers can approve content in one of several categories, to wit:
Ideally there would be software support for this, with boxes for yes, no, no opinion, along with user names such that we might see an article with a list of reviewers, dates, and revisions reviewed; should we see that prominent Wikipedians have covered all areas we would conclude an article leaves little room for improvement. Then we might have a search feature where we can look for articles that are unreviewed, and ideally we could each choose which reviewers we wish to consider when so doing. I would think that the reviews would be tied to a particular revision. Perhaps also follow-on reviewers could assert that changes made since a certain revision are minor and appropriate.
There must be some means of categorization, so that we can mark those articles that will never be suitable for a print edition, and perhaps also so we can mark those articles that are by consensus considered complete for 1.0.
There will also be a need to mark which revision is considered most suitable for print publication. Exactly how this is done is likely to prove contentious, but the fact remains that we will need to freeze some articles when they are good enough and sufficiently reviewed, while still working on others. We may be best served by making these markers relatively easy to move at first, with increasing difficulty of movement as we reach closure.
Kat 21:14, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I advocate strongly for a version on cd-rom even if require 2 or 3 cd-roms and must be installed on a HD to be usable (this doens't exclude a DVD version). DVD burners are not very common and even DVD readers are not very common in third world countries where many people would be interrested by a free encyclopedia. Ericd 20:12, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)
As some articles use complex HTML layout a distribution in HTML seems obvious to me but how to implement a search feature ? Ericd 23:15, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)
As a suggestion to refactor, consider combining the discussion of "approval versus scoring versus disapproval/vote" for articles with that already in Wikipedia:approval_mechanism.
And, for the discussion of "who should be allowed to participate" or "whose votes to count" or "what differential on scoring should apply for trusted contributors versus known trolls versus anonymous IP numbers", a quite different issue, I'd suggest moving the stuff on Advogato (not a great model BTW) to Wikipedia:trust model (or to a talk file on that subject first).
Then anything regarding self-funding or donation options or payments that keep the process going, such as RK's suggestion to sell paperback compilations, can go to Wikipedia:revenue model (or to a talk file on that subject first).
There are meta: references on all of these, but to put something in the [[Wikipedia:]] space is a signal that some decisions are about to be made.
With those three hived off as separate problems the question of "what to include" or "how to deliver" or "what timelines" are easier to consider.
Hope this helps. EofT
Also, there is now a Wikipedia:list of central issues to compliment the Wikipedia:list of controversial issues and Wikipedia:Sysop reading list to make it a bit easier to find the connections between community (which is not part of a CD-ROM version obviously) and the encyclopedia as a work of writing. These will aid the push to 1.0 by helping differentiate content from community. As 1.0 is "content", we need a separate (maybe distracting) thing for the "community" to pay attention to, that will ultimately pay off as better streamlined ways to deal with content. EofT
Obviously, refactor any of the above as you like when you do the "push" page. They're just suggestions. But planning a parallel push to get the community to read and understand the central issues and come to agreements on them, may be more important to the content plan than you think. EofT
I have a strange feeling with this part of this article is just someone taking[sic] fun of us.
It was added on 11:54, 26 Aug 2003 by 213.105.87.216 even without signing. See http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User:Jimbo_Wales/Pushing_To_1.0&diff=1347479&oldid=1347394
Was this just a troll making fun of us? When I first read this page, I thought, Jimmy wrote this. Then I thought... NO, this can not be. But people took this comment serious. What happened here?
If someone could clarify who/why this was added/commentet/taken serious, please let know. Thanks, Fantasy 15:30, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)
What should be excluded. First a sweeping statement - the majority of wikipedia articles are irredeemiably[sic] trivial or otherwise lacking and should not be included in 1.0, no matter how well they are written.
Below is a list of areas that should be excluded unless the sublect in question is particularly famous or a landmark in the field. As you look through the list you will clearly not agreed[sic] but please keep the preceeding[sic] sentence in mind.
Articles that should not be in 1.0
Articles derived from Federal Standard 1037C or similar
I'm tempted to include all Israel-Palestine articles.
There are more I'm sure and a lot of articles could be substantially edited - while you could include the Simpsons, as being famous, the article could be reduced enormously and all seperate Simpsons related material dropped.
Everything that is considered "good" should be in wikipedia 1.0 implementing a process to sort articles will add a step and consume time. What is the problem if someone has writen a article on a unkown book ? This article may even the best thing ever written on that book. I think that Wikipedia will always be different from other encyclopedia[sic]. IMO we have only one priority find a efficient way to exclude the worses[sic] articles for Wikipedia 1.0. IMO a quick and efficient solution will be a veto system with motivated veto a slogan like "don't be afraid to veto and article". Ericd 22:23, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
This is also IMO in contradiction with the spirit or Wikipedia.
Just as a bit of fun, I tried to do a mockup of what a Paper Wikipedia article might look like... Media:PaperWikipediaMockup.jpg (Warning, large picture) Matthewmayer
Why don't we leave this task to someone else? Draw a parallel with Linux: the developers are not the distributors. If we work to make Wikipedia as good as it can be, then sooner or later the profit motive will draw in redistributors to exploit the heck out of it.
All we should do is make Wikipedia as redistributable as possible - for starters, that means going to all the Wikipedia:sites that use Wikipedia content and asking them what we could do to make their lives easier and Wikipedia more redistributable. Martin 14:57, 5 Sep 2003 (UTC)
There is currently a page comparing the size of Wikipedia against other encyclopedias, but I'd like to post some results comparing the coverage, quality and organization methods of different 'pedias. There was some talk in Aug 2003 about comparisons against Britannica, but does a page exist for this yet? I could not find any.
One benefit is the ability to benchmark the 1.0 topic lists against ones from other pedias, and also to test the quality of Wikipedia against others. Fuzheado 00:32, 15 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I am a little concerned about the proposed launch date of Dec. 2004.
My comments are limited to the business and economics sections of the 'pedia because these are the only areas I can speak on with any authority. When I look at the 750 or so articles in this section, I see a work in progress. There are a lot of problems with incomplete articles, missing articles, inaccuracies, and NPOV. The best developed sections are the 248 economics articles and the 192 marketing articles, most of which are of reasonable quality. But when we get into other areas, we have problems. Of the 48 human resource management articles, about 30 of them are stubs. Of the 149 finance articles, about 80 are stubs. Of the 58 information technology articles, about 25 are stubs. We have about the same ratios for the 59 business law articles, the 69 accounting articles, and the 71 management articles. The 25 production articles are fairly good, but many more articles are needed to fill in this topic. Many of the 39 business ethics articles have questionable NPOV.
My concern is that this section of the 'opedia has a long way to go before it will be taken seriously by academia. As best as I can tell there are about a dozen of us doing substantive work on this section (by "substantive" I mean to exclude copy editors and formatting). Fifteen months does not give us enough time to get Wiki' up to a level that would be useful at the undergrad level. If we launch prematurely, we may do irreversible dammage to the reputation of the 'pedia. mydogategodshat 09:27, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Will we ever be truly ready? I personally don't see any need to produce a static version, except for long-term archival purposes (to say, every year, burn the entire article space on a solid medium and submit to the Library of Congress and comparable archives). It just rubs me the wrong way; Wikipedia is as much a process as a product. As the wired world expands towards 100% percent of the human population, the *need* for static, distributable copies will decrease (as access to the online version becomes easier), and by diverting the efforts of valuable contributors to a project that will be (necessarily) incomplete and rapidly out of date. Just my two cents... Seth Ilys 04:33, 15 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I think that the time is fast approaching when we should make a start, and see how our best theories translate to practice. My suggestion is that we set up a volunteer editorial board (perhaps call it Wikipedia 0.1 for now so as not to raise false hopes or needlessly consume name space) and some means of them working and see what they can come up with. For one form of infrastructure to support them see my proposal m:referees#Baselining. This article on the Meta assumes that a form of article review should be implemented before trying to develop static versions of Wikipedia, and I still think this is the best way to go, but I'm very interested in other views on this and it could work either way. Andrewa 14:59, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I have said this else where but I will say it here also. We should use recycled materials for Wikipedia 1.0. If it is published on paper we should use 100% recycle paper. (the quality of it now is excellent, i have some so trust me.) see: [3]. If it is published on CD-RW's or DVD-RW's you can (i dont know where) get recycled ones. "Wikipedia 1.0 the first "Green" Encylopeadia". -fonzy
Wikipedia is an excellent resource because it is not restrained in size or content. It's the only reference in the world where you can find not only important things like "China," but trivial things like "Klingon." The point being, it is fundamentally different from EB because it is not a summary of the most important knowledge, but aims to be a compendium of ALL knowledge. Culling only the most 'significant' articles from it (i.e., getting rid of pop-culture entries) would significantly diminish its value. Not to mention, what's the point? Wikipedia is already available online- are there that many people who have CD-ROM drives but not internet access? A book might look nice on your coffee table, but why would you refer to it when a fuller reference, fully searchable, is available on your PC? Not to mention, Wikipedia 1.0 would be uneditable and static, the absolute antithesis of www.wikipedia.org. I agree that the project needs goals of "completeness," and in fact probably should have a "1.0" in the works, but why do it in a format that negates the best of wikipedia?
But I agree that it's arguable. ilya 06:49, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Whether we distribute 1.0 as a CD, DVD, in printed form, or even via audio, it seems likely to expose Wikimedia to significant new liability for copyright violations. Currently, Wikipedia is largely shielded by OCILLA, which protects us as long as we promptly take down any infringing material when the copyright holder complains to our designated agent (the individual contributor responsible isn't protected, but I doubt anybody's coming after them). But OCILLA or the CDA only protect Wikipedia on the Internet; once we move into other media, Wikimedia could be looking at lawsuits.
In part it depends on the approach we take to creating 1.0. If it's just a snapshot of all Wikipedia content as of X date, that's problematic. I don't think you can argue that we don't have infringing material present at any given moment. So we'd basically be inviting litigation.
Alternatively, 1.0 could be screened for possible violations, with only clean articles included. But even so, we could easily miss significant violations that are too subtle for whoever does the screening. Also, we have to keep in mind that fair use will not necessarily protect us everywhere that we might distribute. So it would require closer scrutiny than we currently tend to give our content. -- Michael Snow 01:05, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)
One thing we should try to do is document our sources. If you contribute a paragraph or two, add something to the references section stating where you researched that information. I admit I sometimes don't bother to do this myself, but it's useful for reasons other than showing copyright compliance as well. Anthony DiPierro 01:39, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
FYI, this article from the Independent (UK) should probably get this conversation started again.
Fuzheado 01:08, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
After I have published the first printed Wikipedia:WikiReader I can speak of some experience. Hardest thing is to sell it. I have sold something like 200 copies in two weeks, not very much. And I'm facing some very hard resistance on advertising for the WikiReader on the de:Hauptseite and normal article-namespace. So, be prepared to face some very hard resistance if you want to advertise it within Wikipedia. -- TomK32 21:12, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I was thinking about what would happen if it was discovered that a copyright infringement was included on a CD version of Wikipedia. I think any software we do should automatically look for an internet connection and, if it detects one, check for any such copyright alerts. If there is a reported copyright infringement, the software could download a designated replacement article/picture to the hard drive to use in its place, or restrict access to it altogether.
I have also been thinking about all this on the assumption that the Wikipedia 1.0 in its CD version is a piece of software native to a particular operating system. How would we select these operating systems? Windows is a must, and people would be angry if it did not run on Linux. Macs have a lot of users too. How would we accomplish this? Write it all in Java??
Now, I come to the issue of selecting which articles (and which versions of articles) should be included. I think there should be an automatically generated (but only 1000 articles or so in size) list of the most frequently visited - and edited - articles. Is this possible? I know there is a kind of hit-meter built into the MediaWiki software, but it might have been disabled on Wikipedia. Anyway, so we have a list of the most popular articles. That list would be a good starting point for the things people would be looking for in the CD version of the 'pedia. From there, we can remove articles and add all the others which should be included.
I propose that all admins (and stewards etc) should have the ability to do the page/version selection thing (possibly by a selectable icon in the Page History). I also suggest that there be a new class of user created called "scrutineer" or something, whose only special ability above normal users is to select these articles.
I think the software will have to be engaging. To be able to compete with Britannica and Encarta requires a *LOT* of multimedia, flashy graphics and features.
My final thought is on the name of the publication/CD. I absolutely hate "Wikipedia 1.0" as a name, even as a working name. I much prefer "Wikipedia 2005" or something like that, because it emphasises that it is a work-in-progress, a snapshot in time rather than an evolving thing like the main Wikipedia website. "1.0" suggests a final release, and I think it would be conceited to think this initial Wikipedia release will be a complete work. Of course there will be problems and mistakes.
I hope someone takes the time to read this. I'm really interested in the push towards 1.0 and want to help as much as possible, even if it means giving up most of my editing on the main 'pedia. - Mark 10:32, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I see mention in other places of an 'Africa' story. Just to let you know, I have put down at Nansindlela school [4] in Ingwavuma a digital snapshot of Wikipedia - currently text-only, but, courtesy Brian Vibber, soon pictures as well. I just have to visit there again .. somewhat far from Cape Town .. I think Digital is feasible, and way better. Wizzy
I happen to love this idea, first off. Second off, perhaps I'm jumping to far ahead here, but these are the thoughts I came up with. I'm also not on the mailing lists, so perhaps these have already been discussed, but I figure, if I put them here, at least someone may read them.
This is highly ambitious, and I think before discussing a lot of the technical issues, how to convert things, what amount of articles are needed, etc[.], etc[.], there needs to be some semblance of organization.
First off, what exactly is the plan? Mention has been made of a print edition, an english CD, an other languages (with simple english) CD, a DVD with all of them, a two CD set, etc[.] etc. For the purposes of this discussion, I'll assume a print edition, the english CD, and the other languages CD.
How would we go about this? First off, I think you need to look at the timing, which was mentioned above. I see it working something like: The English CD is the first to be done. It's the easiest for sevearl reasons: Wiki --> CD is easier than wiki --> Paper, and less culling of articles. Set this to happen every two years. On the second year, do the other languages CD. This requires a bit more work (more languages, coordination, etc[.]), but with the experience gained from the English CD, should be easy enough. WIth this two year staggered system, it also allows for 6 month quarterly "updates". This is a long enough period of time to actually have a significant change in content, while also allowing to show some of the "transient" nature of wikipedia.
The print edition is harder. Every year? Every two years? Either way, it needs to be done after the english[sic] CD. First, I assume that we'll have gained experience like I said above, and be able to have some organization for the print edition. Also, it gives time to find the appropiate services/programs/etc[.] to take on the task of transferring wiki to a paper edition. I assume we have more programmers in wikipedia than we do bookbinders ;).
Secondly, Organization. How does this go about? I see it done as assigning a committee or a few main people, like caretakers, to each of the three projects. That committee would be answerable to the foundation board. They would be responsible for creating a set timeline, identification of what was needed, and perhaps recruiting whoever[sic] they need to add in the project.
The OL languages group would probably need to have at least one person per smaller language, and 2-3 per larger, to be on hand for this group.
For the print version, one thing the caretakers should be responsible for is recruiting editors for each of the "topical" areas, like Biology, Mathematics, etc[.], etc. Those in turn would recruit a few editors for their sections.
I'd also like to point out the wikireader projects. I Happen[sic] to adore this idea,[sic] I may start one myself soon, but irregardless[sic], these seem to be a good primer, and a good experiment, to see how converting to a paper encyclopedia might work, and what hitches may be found. A further effort towards workign on these might be warranted.
I may have just spouted a lot of stuff that has already been thought of, but as it was not mentioned here, I wanted to make sure that peopel didn't put the "planning" aspects ahead of the "organization" aspects.
Lyellin 09:38, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC)
I just wanted to say that when I first heard about this whole print Wikipedia thing, I immediately thought of the Mathworld debacle. I haven't read very much about the plans (who has the time?), but just be damn careful to read the fine print of any contracts you sign! - dcljr 05:54, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
One thing to watch is consistency of article layout for the print version. While the online version can tolerate variations,since only one article can be seen at a time, once it is set on a page, it needs consistency. By this I mean the order of an article > title print size, > opening paragraph, > following paras> links > references> categorisation, etc. How we handle lists, and the degree of indent etc[.] will also need attention. If we don't do this from the outset, the printed version is going to look amateurish, and be a messy read for the purchaser. Also what about a final index to it all? Apwoolrich 17:31, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I have added a possible process for upgrading pages to production quality at User talk:M.e/Production Wikipedia m.e. 12:01, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC).
I think a vote should be cast weather[sic] we should use recycled CDs\[sic]DVDs\[sic]Paper....
For
Against
Comments
IMHO, the best way to push wikipedia onto a DVD (sorry the arguments against DVD are notably dated) would be to provide a downloadable snapshot of 1.0, which can be burned/or mounted onto a hard drive.. And it would be best left as a federation of linked web-pages, albeit without the cgi/php. Importantly, one could leave links for editorship in that direct the enduser to wikipedia online. The advantage is an offline resource, that also serves as a historic record. Disadvantages are those that concern attempting to make money out of the project. DVDs could be sold with a browser, etc.
Regarding paper copy - why do it? The regression back to linear communication would lose one of the greatest assets of wikipedia - the hyperlink. The energy costs involved are high, and for what benefit? I love books - I love reading books too. But even if I had Wikipedia v1.0 on my shelf, i would never take it anywhere, and I would never use it! Why should I when I can go straight to the real one - Version "Today".
Jim et. al. - You will do what you want - this is a fantastic project, which has opened many minds to the phenomena of wikis - and wikipedia itself. These ideas here are just a bit of a rant. Signing Off.. ( 20040302 16:29, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC))Pushing To 1.0/archive]]