 | This is an
essay. It contains the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors. This page is not an encyclopedia article, nor is it one of
Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been
thoroughly vetted by the community. Some essays represent widespread norms; others only represent minority viewpoints. |
 | This page in a nutshell: This page was compiled by a project member in June 2011 (on basis of how previous flag debates had been solved and agreed at the project's talkpage during the course of the first half of 2011), as the first step of attempting to help the project establish a consensus guideline for the use of flags in football-related articles (as a subset of the more overall WP:MOSFLAG guidelines). The next step of developing it further, through a broad consensus-reaching debate at the projects talkpage, has not yet been taken. So it is still under construction (at a development beta stage), and therefore does not at its present state constitute any consensus decisions made by the project in regards of flag use. Wikipedians are encouraged to help develop it further. |
Over the course of some time, there have been several discussions at WT:FOOTY about the appropriate use of flags, for all football related articles. This page is first and foremost an attempt, to formulate a guideline, for how the vast majority of football articles so far opted to use flags; to form a new common overall flag policy we all can refer to. The WPF flag policy is of course a subset of the more general WP:MOSFLAG, and we also currently have the subpage Nationality of football players, to discuss/propose a potential new flag policy for them.
If you have an observation/comment for the written "current Flag policy for WPF", a special subchapter has been dedicated space for that. Finally a chapter to propose/discuss some potential proposals for a new flag policy for WPF, has also been created at the bottom of the page.
Flag policy for WPF
The flag policy formulated in this chapter, reflect the current unwritten "Flag policy", being followed by editors at all kind of WP Football articles, in the past few years. After consulting a series of high profile football articles, it was possible to indentify some logic and common sence, and hereby formulate an overall flag policy based upon the current common practise. It is believed, that more than 90% of all current football articles, already comply with the written overall "flag policy" in this chapter. For the remaining articles without compliance, it has been sugested to edit them to comply with the written policy, as soon as possible. Without further talk, the chapter will now present the currently used "Flag policy for WPF".
General rule
For the sake of clarity and relevance towards the sporting context, it is only allowed to use “representative flags” for sportspeople, and never “legal citizenship flags”. In those rare cases, where a flag is needed for some of the non-sportspeople, then it should be their “legal citizenship flag”, which they had at the historical correct time of the context, where you insist to list their flag.
Flag policy for Infoboxes
First it is important to note, that WP:MOSFLAG prohibit any use of flags for biograpical infoboxes/articles. Secondly, we have a further rule at WPF, to regulate and clarify the importance criteria for the use of flags in infoboxes. The rule is that:
- Only highly important flags, being evaluated as such within the scope of the infobox at hand, are allowed to be used.
In example, if you list a topscorer for a club/league/tournament, then you are not allowed to show that players “national team flag”, as he did not specifically represent his national team, while scoring the goals. Instead he represented his club, and thus it is more important to note his club in parenthesis, rather than his “national team flag”. If the same player managed to become topscorer at an International Tournament, while playing for his national team, then it will however be appropriate if the infobox for this particular tournament, list him as topscorer along with his “national team flag”. The rule, that only highly important context related flags are allowed, also mean, that you are prohibited to use any “legal citizenship flags” for managers or club officials, in any infobox for a football club. Within the context of the football club, their personal citizenship flag is only of a minor importance, because all of them in fact can be said more to represent the club, rather than representing their legal nationality.
Flag policy for Lists/Tables
The importance criteria for flag use at lists/tables are far less strict, compared to infoboxes. Our general rule is, that whenever the list/table has decided to devote space for listing the nationality, then you are also allowed to show it with a flag. The main reason for this approved flag use, is due to layout concerns, where a flag often will be preferred compared to bulky text. For lists/tables, we accept that nationality flags can be used, even if it does not posses a major importance by-it-self. Yet it should still fulfil the minimum requirement, of at least being statistical relevant –or to some degree relevant within the context of the list.
Flag policy for Text
No flags are allowed to be used within text. This rule is due to both layout concerns, and to avoid any form of ambiguity. In those cases where it might be appropriate to note the nationality of a person, then it will be much more accurate, to describe it with words. Hence, no flags are allowed to be used within text lines.
Observations
How current Football articles comply with the WPF policy
The following 5 articles were all so far confirmed to comply with the written flag policy outlined above:
- England national football team
- Manchester United
- 2010–11 Arsenal F.C. season
- 2010 FIFA World Cup
- 2010 FIFA World Cup Group matches
The following 1 article has so far been identified not to comply (but will soon be corrected if nobody objects):
Compliance issues between the WPF policy and WP:MOSFLAG
WP:MOSFLAG feature a paragraph that prohibit any use of flags, without also noting the nationality name of the flag with words. For many years, this paragraph was however not "fully complied" with, by editors at WP Football. The argument goes, that whenever a reader (being colourblind / without knowledge of the flag name) bump into any "flag not followed by its full name", then we all simply point with the mouse on the flag, to get the popup-message with the name of the flag. The official WP:MOSFLAG policy simply forgot to take this smart feature into consideration, when the original policy was formulated many years ago. This is why so many football editors currently have the opinion that: "we do not act against the spirit of WP:MOSFLAG, in those lists were the full name of the flag is not typed into the coloumn of the list". On the contrary, it would make most lists harder to read and digest, if all flag names were explicity mentioned with bulky text. The majority of football editors seems to agree, that this is a corner of WP:MOSFLAG, which call for an update sooner or later. The fact that Wikipedia is an "online encyclopedic collection of articles", mean that it should also take all the "online features" into consideration, in regards of regulating the appropriate use of flag icons. Just like all other current Wikipedia policies already did, in example by providing a general accept to use wiki-links in all sorts of articles. Only if Wikipedia was a hardcopy fysical book, it would make sence to demand that all flag names should be explicitly written whenever a flag is used. Wikipedia is however so much more, and this has not been taken into full consideration by the current formulation of WP:MOSFLAG. Hence, it is believed that the current WPF policy does not posses any serious compliance issues with WP:MOSFLAG.
Proposal for a new Flag policy
This chapter is dedicated to discuss, if you believe it would benefit WP Football, to perhaps implement and enforce a new different flag policy, compared to the current flag policy being used. So far, the previous discussions did not manage to reach consensus for a new flag policy. This chapter is however dedicated to list and discuss each new proposal. All new ideas/proposals are of course welcome. To keep it well structured, a new subchapter with each new proposal should be created, and then with some sub-sub chapters entitled "Support", "Oppose" and "Observations". As ever, points will be considered according to the merits of the reasons presented, not simply number of votes.
First new proposal
Support
Oppose
Observations
- The player list at Manchester United is an example of something I do not feel comfortable supporting. Having flags in rosters and similar lists is part of the problem since we still run into issues such as players being eligible for two countries, a player being eligible for a country that is not recognized by FIFA/recognized by FIFA but not some nations, and other issues. I feel that the only time we should use flags is when discussing national teams (in an article about the World Cup) and clubs in international competition (Champions League). This is a very radical reaction to years of inconsistency and ambiguity not being addressed, but those years have proven that we cannot rely on the community satisfactorily presenting the information. Although it is a stretch to say that flag icons are only fluff, it is not a stretch to say that they are not needed. The reader can understand a subject just fine without a flag icon. I do applaud the effort of this proposal and do see it as a step in the right direction for those who do want to continue using flags (I assume a strong majority) Cptnono ( talk) 21:45, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
| This is an
essay. It contains the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors. This page is not an encyclopedia article, nor is it one of
Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been
thoroughly vetted by the community. Some essays represent widespread norms; others only represent minority viewpoints. |
| This page in a nutshell: This page was compiled by a project member in June 2011 (on basis of how previous flag debates had been solved and agreed at the project's talkpage during the course of the first half of 2011), as the first step of attempting to help the project establish a consensus guideline for the use of flags in football-related articles (as a subset of the more overall WP:MOSFLAG guidelines). The next step of developing it further, through a broad consensus-reaching debate at the projects talkpage, has not yet been taken. So it is still under construction (at a development beta stage), and therefore does not at its present state constitute any consensus decisions made by the project in regards of flag use. Wikipedians are encouraged to help develop it further. |
Over the course of some time, there have been several discussions at WT:FOOTY about the appropriate use of flags, for all football related articles. This page is first and foremost an attempt, to formulate a guideline, for how the vast majority of football articles so far opted to use flags; to form a new common overall flag policy we all can refer to. The WPF flag policy is of course a subset of the more general WP:MOSFLAG, and we also currently have the subpage Nationality of football players, to discuss/propose a potential new flag policy for them.
If you have an observation/comment for the written "current Flag policy for WPF", a special subchapter has been dedicated space for that. Finally a chapter to propose/discuss some potential proposals for a new flag policy for WPF, has also been created at the bottom of the page.
Flag policy for WPF
The flag policy formulated in this chapter, reflect the current unwritten "Flag policy", being followed by editors at all kind of WP Football articles, in the past few years. After consulting a series of high profile football articles, it was possible to indentify some logic and common sence, and hereby formulate an overall flag policy based upon the current common practise. It is believed, that more than 90% of all current football articles, already comply with the written overall "flag policy" in this chapter. For the remaining articles without compliance, it has been sugested to edit them to comply with the written policy, as soon as possible. Without further talk, the chapter will now present the currently used "Flag policy for WPF".
General rule
For the sake of clarity and relevance towards the sporting context, it is only allowed to use “representative flags” for sportspeople, and never “legal citizenship flags”. In those rare cases, where a flag is needed for some of the non-sportspeople, then it should be their “legal citizenship flag”, which they had at the historical correct time of the context, where you insist to list their flag.
Flag policy for Infoboxes
First it is important to note, that WP:MOSFLAG prohibit any use of flags for biograpical infoboxes/articles. Secondly, we have a further rule at WPF, to regulate and clarify the importance criteria for the use of flags in infoboxes. The rule is that:
- Only highly important flags, being evaluated as such within the scope of the infobox at hand, are allowed to be used.
In example, if you list a topscorer for a club/league/tournament, then you are not allowed to show that players “national team flag”, as he did not specifically represent his national team, while scoring the goals. Instead he represented his club, and thus it is more important to note his club in parenthesis, rather than his “national team flag”. If the same player managed to become topscorer at an International Tournament, while playing for his national team, then it will however be appropriate if the infobox for this particular tournament, list him as topscorer along with his “national team flag”. The rule, that only highly important context related flags are allowed, also mean, that you are prohibited to use any “legal citizenship flags” for managers or club officials, in any infobox for a football club. Within the context of the football club, their personal citizenship flag is only of a minor importance, because all of them in fact can be said more to represent the club, rather than representing their legal nationality.
Flag policy for Lists/Tables
The importance criteria for flag use at lists/tables are far less strict, compared to infoboxes. Our general rule is, that whenever the list/table has decided to devote space for listing the nationality, then you are also allowed to show it with a flag. The main reason for this approved flag use, is due to layout concerns, where a flag often will be preferred compared to bulky text. For lists/tables, we accept that nationality flags can be used, even if it does not posses a major importance by-it-self. Yet it should still fulfil the minimum requirement, of at least being statistical relevant –or to some degree relevant within the context of the list.
Flag policy for Text
No flags are allowed to be used within text. This rule is due to both layout concerns, and to avoid any form of ambiguity. In those cases where it might be appropriate to note the nationality of a person, then it will be much more accurate, to describe it with words. Hence, no flags are allowed to be used within text lines.
Observations
How current Football articles comply with the WPF policy
The following 5 articles were all so far confirmed to comply with the written flag policy outlined above:
- England national football team
- Manchester United
- 2010–11 Arsenal F.C. season
- 2010 FIFA World Cup
- 2010 FIFA World Cup Group matches
The following 1 article has so far been identified not to comply (but will soon be corrected if nobody objects):
Compliance issues between the WPF policy and WP:MOSFLAG
WP:MOSFLAG feature a paragraph that prohibit any use of flags, without also noting the nationality name of the flag with words. For many years, this paragraph was however not "fully complied" with, by editors at WP Football. The argument goes, that whenever a reader (being colourblind / without knowledge of the flag name) bump into any "flag not followed by its full name", then we all simply point with the mouse on the flag, to get the popup-message with the name of the flag. The official WP:MOSFLAG policy simply forgot to take this smart feature into consideration, when the original policy was formulated many years ago. This is why so many football editors currently have the opinion that: "we do not act against the spirit of WP:MOSFLAG, in those lists were the full name of the flag is not typed into the coloumn of the list". On the contrary, it would make most lists harder to read and digest, if all flag names were explicity mentioned with bulky text. The majority of football editors seems to agree, that this is a corner of WP:MOSFLAG, which call for an update sooner or later. The fact that Wikipedia is an "online encyclopedic collection of articles", mean that it should also take all the "online features" into consideration, in regards of regulating the appropriate use of flag icons. Just like all other current Wikipedia policies already did, in example by providing a general accept to use wiki-links in all sorts of articles. Only if Wikipedia was a hardcopy fysical book, it would make sence to demand that all flag names should be explicitly written whenever a flag is used. Wikipedia is however so much more, and this has not been taken into full consideration by the current formulation of WP:MOSFLAG. Hence, it is believed that the current WPF policy does not posses any serious compliance issues with WP:MOSFLAG.
Proposal for a new Flag policy
This chapter is dedicated to discuss, if you believe it would benefit WP Football, to perhaps implement and enforce a new different flag policy, compared to the current flag policy being used. So far, the previous discussions did not manage to reach consensus for a new flag policy. This chapter is however dedicated to list and discuss each new proposal. All new ideas/proposals are of course welcome. To keep it well structured, a new subchapter with each new proposal should be created, and then with some sub-sub chapters entitled "Support", "Oppose" and "Observations". As ever, points will be considered according to the merits of the reasons presented, not simply number of votes.
First new proposal
Support
Oppose
Observations
- The player list at Manchester United is an example of something I do not feel comfortable supporting. Having flags in rosters and similar lists is part of the problem since we still run into issues such as players being eligible for two countries, a player being eligible for a country that is not recognized by FIFA/recognized by FIFA but not some nations, and other issues. I feel that the only time we should use flags is when discussing national teams (in an article about the World Cup) and clubs in international competition (Champions League). This is a very radical reaction to years of inconsistency and ambiguity not being addressed, but those years have proven that we cannot rely on the community satisfactorily presenting the information. Although it is a stretch to say that flag icons are only fluff, it is not a stretch to say that they are not needed. The reader can understand a subject just fine without a flag icon. I do applaud the effort of this proposal and do see it as a step in the right direction for those who do want to continue using flags (I assume a strong majority) Cptnono ( talk) 21:45, 3 July 2011 (UTC)