(IAT) I judged it fair. The theory was presented in a straightforward way, and then the objections were raised. I consider it POV pushing when the opposing editors do not let the theory be actually presented without putting in denials of it ever paragraph, In the Out of India article, to be perfectly frank with you, I do not think the presentation fair. In every individual section the theory is quickly presented, and then a thorough refutation is given. This is not giving them a chance.
Summary: I certainly support your edits of Wilbur and associates, but I think you are totally off the track with the Theosophists. I'm writing this because you may see my different positions on this as totally peculiar--but i think I know what I'm doing and my distinctions are the right ones. (And I want to make clear that I accept that you equally honestly think your way.) To me, there's peculiar pseudoscience, born in wishful ignorance. And the same for social science, for there is real social science to compare it with. When it gets to anything involving the spiritual world, everything is equal. (art is a little complicated of course; so is politics-- if I had to word in a phrase, art is about what is personally meaningful; politics is about morality. As for morality, that's really complicated--besides being the most important thing in life, and as it doesnt arise here I defer that discussion. DGG ( talk) 04:39, 16 December 2007 (UTC) (from User talk:Fireplace)
I apologize, but it is impossible not to recognize the name, and anyway you talk about it right here on your user page. I do intend to fight for every sexuality related article (almost), & so we will inevitably come in conflict, as I think you intend to delete a good many more -- & I do not accept your argument about keeping only what we think to be the major ones. I'd even keep the fictional ones, if there were two or more films or stories about it. To continue, the reason people at AfD don't do the documentation is that it's work. Even on subjects where the bibliographic tools work, it takes about an hour to really upgrade and document a bio, longer for a subject, and I can't do more than one of those every other day or so. In human sexuality articles of the non-medical sort it takes much longer, because these things tend not to be in indexes. I've done one or two--it took all day. I cannot take responsibility for upgrading that whole section: I think others should share the dirty work. (pun intended).
You asked me to explain why my "feeling" that the page should be abandoned was a rational response.
I am not particularly interested in popular culture., and I have a low tolerance for trivia. I came here to write about what interests me, which is very much the academic side of things. I soon saw that there was a general misunderstanding of the importance of these areas. In trying to defend them, I realised the only practical way was for general acceptance of a certain tolerance for minority interests. This was intensified when i came to see the persecution of articles on political and religious and sexual grounds, and how readily lack of notability and difficulties in conventional sourcing could be used to eliminate many such articles. And simultanously, I was from the first discouraged at the general acceptance of low quality content and low quality sourcing, when better could be done.
But it's interesting we see the trend differently--I think I am fighting against all odds to try to retain notable content. The reason this problem is so difficult is, in my view, the over-zealous actions of those who tried and are still trying to delete everything resembling popular culture. If there had been a reasonable effort at removing clearly inappropriate content, it would have gone much more smoothly.
Back this Spring, I offered one of the most fervent deletors the opportunity to compromise -he expressed a willingness to work with me to get the worst of the material deleted. But when I suggested that if he would not try to delete more than an article or two a week , we would try to improve them--he never answered me again. I saw him continuing the attempt to repeat AfDs until one succeeeded. and to use the technique of first splitting off sections as articles and then nominating the splits as not independently notable. I saw other people join him in this, and use similarly unfair tactics. I saw another one decide to engage in continued personal attacks when I or anyone stood up to his arguments.
For some people, I now see it as either irrational stubbornness, or a fanatic desire to see some content as unimportant, or perhaps being trapped into a position from which they cannot gracefully withdraw. in the continued attacks on these articles. I came very close this summer to deciding to abandon the articles, and work elsewhere in WP, rather than try to deal with this. (There's at least one other topic where I did in fact decide to not participate for similar reasons.) But I decided it was not decent of me to withdraw my support, as some of the content was central to an encyclopedia-- & I was influenced by the optimism of some of the newer people.
Not all of these allies are sensible, and I do what i can to restrain their desire to look for fights--I have made very plain to them the limits of my support. But I have decided to continue this as long as it takes, at the level of policy, at the level of defending articles, at the level of helping write them. It is interfering with what I think is my true role in WP, but I think the attempt to remove this content will remove the base of the project. I'd as soon remove all B of LPs to avoid disputing what counts as attacks.
I do not play much in the way of computer games (actually I used to do a little more, until I found WP to be more satisfying & decided I didnt have time to do both this and Civilization at the proper level--the first article i rescued here was one on a weapon in that game) , and I have no interest whatever in manga or pornography or rock or YouTube or even video. The little I know about any of them, I've learned from browsing at Wikipedia, and I rely on the plot summaries for what awareness I have.
(from Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Soren (Guardians of Ga'Hoole):
(with respect to [1], the first man in Iowa to climb mt everest. I do not think he's notable in any real sense, but according to WP:V, there is no exclusion of local sources. Nor is there in WP:BLP, or anywhere else. If we mean that Notability is judged only or primarily by the ability to write an objective article, there is no basis in policy for excluding this one. We judge "worthy of notice" by whether people have noticed it in RSs, and the newspapers in the search [2] are RSs. (Personally, I think it's absurd not to have specific criteria instead of WP:N, but so it is. Meeting the general notability criterion is enough, even though it gives rather odd results.
re. DS.
not actually posted where it applies.
I'm going to take a look, but speaking of reality, the place where we finally solve the problems of the area is not going to be at Wikipedia. I decline to commit myself on whether it will be be anywhere in this world, but it certainly won't be here. It can not be expected that views that involve people's real and justified fears for their real and essential interests can be kept from affecting articles. It can not be expected that people who see threats to the existence of themselves and their children will avoid propaganda that will might possibly avert it, or will feel any obligation to observe rules, or laws, or decency. When there is a genuine conflict between two groups who think each others' existence imperils their own, there is no way of settling this by discussion and neutral presentation of historical and political facts. Neither will take the chance that the facts if known fairly will bring about events that will destroy them. I've looked at some such situations here in the past, and if I edit from a NPOV, it is because I think both sides similarly dangerous. And because I stubbornly hold to the proposition that one tells the truth about the world,no matter what may follow. No one who understands a situation like this will think the NPOV editing is actually possible otherwise.
(IAT) I judged it fair. The theory was presented in a straightforward way, and then the objections were raised. I consider it POV pushing when the opposing editors do not let the theory be actually presented without putting in denials of it ever paragraph, In the Out of India article, to be perfectly frank with you, I do not think the presentation fair. In every individual section the theory is quickly presented, and then a thorough refutation is given. This is not giving them a chance.
Summary: I certainly support your edits of Wilbur and associates, but I think you are totally off the track with the Theosophists. I'm writing this because you may see my different positions on this as totally peculiar--but i think I know what I'm doing and my distinctions are the right ones. (And I want to make clear that I accept that you equally honestly think your way.) To me, there's peculiar pseudoscience, born in wishful ignorance. And the same for social science, for there is real social science to compare it with. When it gets to anything involving the spiritual world, everything is equal. (art is a little complicated of course; so is politics-- if I had to word in a phrase, art is about what is personally meaningful; politics is about morality. As for morality, that's really complicated--besides being the most important thing in life, and as it doesnt arise here I defer that discussion. DGG ( talk) 04:39, 16 December 2007 (UTC) (from User talk:Fireplace)
I apologize, but it is impossible not to recognize the name, and anyway you talk about it right here on your user page. I do intend to fight for every sexuality related article (almost), & so we will inevitably come in conflict, as I think you intend to delete a good many more -- & I do not accept your argument about keeping only what we think to be the major ones. I'd even keep the fictional ones, if there were two or more films or stories about it. To continue, the reason people at AfD don't do the documentation is that it's work. Even on subjects where the bibliographic tools work, it takes about an hour to really upgrade and document a bio, longer for a subject, and I can't do more than one of those every other day or so. In human sexuality articles of the non-medical sort it takes much longer, because these things tend not to be in indexes. I've done one or two--it took all day. I cannot take responsibility for upgrading that whole section: I think others should share the dirty work. (pun intended).
You asked me to explain why my "feeling" that the page should be abandoned was a rational response.
I am not particularly interested in popular culture., and I have a low tolerance for trivia. I came here to write about what interests me, which is very much the academic side of things. I soon saw that there was a general misunderstanding of the importance of these areas. In trying to defend them, I realised the only practical way was for general acceptance of a certain tolerance for minority interests. This was intensified when i came to see the persecution of articles on political and religious and sexual grounds, and how readily lack of notability and difficulties in conventional sourcing could be used to eliminate many such articles. And simultanously, I was from the first discouraged at the general acceptance of low quality content and low quality sourcing, when better could be done.
But it's interesting we see the trend differently--I think I am fighting against all odds to try to retain notable content. The reason this problem is so difficult is, in my view, the over-zealous actions of those who tried and are still trying to delete everything resembling popular culture. If there had been a reasonable effort at removing clearly inappropriate content, it would have gone much more smoothly.
Back this Spring, I offered one of the most fervent deletors the opportunity to compromise -he expressed a willingness to work with me to get the worst of the material deleted. But when I suggested that if he would not try to delete more than an article or two a week , we would try to improve them--he never answered me again. I saw him continuing the attempt to repeat AfDs until one succeeeded. and to use the technique of first splitting off sections as articles and then nominating the splits as not independently notable. I saw other people join him in this, and use similarly unfair tactics. I saw another one decide to engage in continued personal attacks when I or anyone stood up to his arguments.
For some people, I now see it as either irrational stubbornness, or a fanatic desire to see some content as unimportant, or perhaps being trapped into a position from which they cannot gracefully withdraw. in the continued attacks on these articles. I came very close this summer to deciding to abandon the articles, and work elsewhere in WP, rather than try to deal with this. (There's at least one other topic where I did in fact decide to not participate for similar reasons.) But I decided it was not decent of me to withdraw my support, as some of the content was central to an encyclopedia-- & I was influenced by the optimism of some of the newer people.
Not all of these allies are sensible, and I do what i can to restrain their desire to look for fights--I have made very plain to them the limits of my support. But I have decided to continue this as long as it takes, at the level of policy, at the level of defending articles, at the level of helping write them. It is interfering with what I think is my true role in WP, but I think the attempt to remove this content will remove the base of the project. I'd as soon remove all B of LPs to avoid disputing what counts as attacks.
I do not play much in the way of computer games (actually I used to do a little more, until I found WP to be more satisfying & decided I didnt have time to do both this and Civilization at the proper level--the first article i rescued here was one on a weapon in that game) , and I have no interest whatever in manga or pornography or rock or YouTube or even video. The little I know about any of them, I've learned from browsing at Wikipedia, and I rely on the plot summaries for what awareness I have.
(from Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Soren (Guardians of Ga'Hoole):
(with respect to [1], the first man in Iowa to climb mt everest. I do not think he's notable in any real sense, but according to WP:V, there is no exclusion of local sources. Nor is there in WP:BLP, or anywhere else. If we mean that Notability is judged only or primarily by the ability to write an objective article, there is no basis in policy for excluding this one. We judge "worthy of notice" by whether people have noticed it in RSs, and the newspapers in the search [2] are RSs. (Personally, I think it's absurd not to have specific criteria instead of WP:N, but so it is. Meeting the general notability criterion is enough, even though it gives rather odd results.
re. DS.
not actually posted where it applies.
I'm going to take a look, but speaking of reality, the place where we finally solve the problems of the area is not going to be at Wikipedia. I decline to commit myself on whether it will be be anywhere in this world, but it certainly won't be here. It can not be expected that views that involve people's real and justified fears for their real and essential interests can be kept from affecting articles. It can not be expected that people who see threats to the existence of themselves and their children will avoid propaganda that will might possibly avert it, or will feel any obligation to observe rules, or laws, or decency. When there is a genuine conflict between two groups who think each others' existence imperils their own, there is no way of settling this by discussion and neutral presentation of historical and political facts. Neither will take the chance that the facts if known fairly will bring about events that will destroy them. I've looked at some such situations here in the past, and if I edit from a NPOV, it is because I think both sides similarly dangerous. And because I stubbornly hold to the proposition that one tells the truth about the world,no matter what may follow. No one who understands a situation like this will think the NPOV editing is actually possible otherwise.