This page has been used as the single place to discuss the issue around the links to a domain that has now been placed on the Wikimedia spam blacklist. See m:Spam blacklist/recurring requests for a special subpage that has been created in response to the situation. See also m:Talk:Spam blacklist/archive for further details.
The following is a combination of discussion that originated here, and discussion that was moved here from elsewhere. The alleged consensus that was originally developed is in the section #Even more clarity. A number of additional conversations have been had, including on the administrator's noticeboard, which can be seen by following the 'What links here' link in the toolbox to the left. For any additional conversation, create a new section at the bottom of this page. - Taxman Talk 21:31, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
As of now, all of the ON references throughout Wikipedia have been removed by Dmcdevit, and yet the content remains. This site is to discuss the proper course of action concerning content from and references to ON articles.
I have inserted the pertinent conversations here and hope all of those involved will contribute under the Resolution heading so a decision can be reached and we can move on. Uriah923 06:10, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Uriah, I don't want to be insensitive, but your position has been completely strange. You've been adding links to ON all over the place. Why? Your links have been deleted many times, by different people, who've asked you to stop the obvious link spamming. ON is not a noteworthy web site (yet, maybe some day). Why don't you promote the site through other means, besides Wikipedia external links? Jehochman 05:35, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Please do not add commercial links or links to your own private websites to Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a vehicle for advertising or a mere collection of external links. See the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. Thanks. – ⟳ausa کui × 06:19, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
That's probably part of the problem: that you don't understand the difference between high quality references and low quality ones. Think about the reasons behind references, trust and verifiability. So sources that are well respected by others are higher quality. For example journal reveiw articles in prominent journals and well regarded textbooks are among the highest quality available. About as low quality as possible are random people's opinions including self published books and websites where anything can be published, and there is no editorial policy or respect. Wikipedia potentially suffers from the same problem and the only way out is to use high quality references and use them accurately. This is not just my opinion, this is just how it works. You need to learn about and use higher quality references. Don't spend anymore time asking why your links aren't high quality, go learn for yourself. - Taxman Talk 20:43, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
I was recently blocked by Dmcdevit and this is in violation of the Wikipedia: blocking policy. First, we are currently engaged in multiple disputes and the policy specifies that "users should not block those with whom they are currently engaged in conflict." Also, I have not committed any of the violations listed in the policy. Uriah923 20:07, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
As it was decided in the above discussion, I am going to remove all ON references as well as the content I added from them to the Wikipedia articles. After doing so, a discussion will be opened on the respective talk page in order to discuss the value of the content and the quality of the source and to decide the proper course of action.
I have created a sub-page for general discussion with respect to ON content and the quality ON articles as sources. This page will also contains links to each of the discussions as I open them. Uriah923 22:20, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
You can't just arbitrarily delete a web reference. Wikipedia is about citing sources, and anything using the {{ web reference}} template is just that, a citation. I will now be going through your contribution history to make sure you haven't done this elsewhere. ¦ Reisio 23:03, 2005 September 1 (UTC)
I understand what you're -trying- to do with cleaning up linkspam and it's understood. What I don't understand is why you delete references without deleting the content they reference in the wiki pages. I have added some considerable content to a few pages both with my name and anonymously when I forget. If you feel that all ON links need to be removed, then by all means, delete away. I apologize for trying to fill in the gaps on wiki with the content that is posted on ON. I don't speak for Uriah, he's just a member of the site. I am the owner of it. We, like wiki, try to gather credible information. A few months ago when it was mentioned, we said it might be nice to take the info our users were giving us and fill in some gaps in wikipedia which we often use to learn about a variety of topics. So, I apologize if you or any other admin views this as spam. We're just trying to help the cause. You will note that in several articles on ON, wikipedia is cited since that's where the info came from. I just find it odd that you have info on your site from ON that is accepted because it doesn't get deleted, yet you have no issues deleting the reference.
So my point is this, if you're going to delete the reference, do the academic thing and delete the content that goes with it rather than taking it for your own. Just my thoughts after reading your conversation with Uriah (I was the anon comment, not him) and watching your indiscriminate deletions. I'll be sure to avoid adding content in the future. MarkMcB 21:02, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
That was my misunderstanding - but if we remove the references, the content should also be removed. ¦ Reisio 23:16, 2005 September 1 (UTC)
First, wiki is a great idea. I use the site quite often. But what baffles me is the resistence to content additions. I have written a few original article on various aspects of computing. Using these articles as a reference, I added content to wiki pages and then referenced my articles. Apparently that's "linkspam." Fine, whatever. I just think it's sad to delete content because of what you "think" it might be, ESPECIALLY when there is a section on a wiki page that says "needs to be added." Oh well, I guess I'll just be a user and not a contributor. MarkMcB 20:48, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Please do not delete valid article content. This is basically vandalism if it isn't being removed because of the merit of the content itself. Dmcdevit· t 22:30, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
I have copied this conversation to the sub-page set up specifically for this purpose so a decision can be made. Please continue there. Uriah923 05:53, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Mark, as a non-admin, and somewhat of a new user myself I completely understand where you might have felt wronged. The main issues here, as I see them, are that your site, ON, was not deemed notable enough (based on a written Wikipedia guideline which factors in Alexa ranking and Google hits [called a "Google test"]). In addition, the article, written by two of the site's creators, can, and usually will be seen as "vanity"—you are writing an article on something you created. Sadly, "quality" of the site has no reflection on notability, and I urge you to recreate it once it reaches a level of necissity. Your "link spam" as it is called, meant that you were linking articles to your own site, that, as decided on your VfD, was not notable enough for its own article. Spam, as it's called means that you continually linked to your site in several different articles, a seemingly obvious ploy for more traffic. My first article, a joke, was deleted, leaving me feeling quite saddened and betrayed. I quickly realized that I had made a mistake, and am now somewhat of an active user. And I encourage you to do so as well, we need as many good people as we can get. Thanks a lot, - Sun glasses at night 01:21, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
If ON is so notable, why is there no article on it? Andy Mabbett 06:58, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
All those who have familiarized themselves with this dispute, please weigh in here.
Just to throw a two cents in - I see Mark's point though. If we are to cite sources, then if the information added comes from ON and nowhere else, then one of two things should happen:
I'm not sure there's a middle ground here that isn't logically contradictory. Of course, if the information can be primarily derived from elsewhere, let's do that (i.e. if ON is merely a secondary source). But the non-notability of ON is not an issue if the quality of the information is considered good enough to include. And if the quality is not good enough, then I don't see why it should be included. To state the blatantly obvious: the point of providing footnotes, or references, or sources is so that readers and verify for themselves that the information is indeed accurate.
I am also uncertain that ON necessarily qualifies as linkspam. It does not seem to be advert-based (or maybe that's my ultra efficient Adblocker working) or a commercial site. If the link leads to an article that provides more information, and is useful, I don't see why it should be barred, unless there's something more fundamental I'm missing here.
What it boils down to is simply this - either ON is a good enough source, therefore it should be linked, or it isn't, and the information that it provided towards the article should be gotten rid of. -- khaosworks ( talk • contribs) 06:12, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes. When I said earlier that many (not all or even most) of your contributions were "aesthetic," you took it as an affront: that I was accusing you of not adding content. Let me say that doing cleanup is a Good Thing, and it is often neglected here and it is appreciated. Having said that, that action is separate from the issue being discussed here. As far as I'm aware, most of the other contributions are, as Zora said earlier, almost "common knowledge". It's like before I tried to say that some of your contributions could be useful without being novel enough to warrant the ON reference. What I mean by that is this: It is not practical or possible to cite every assertion in every article. What can be done, or at least what we strive to do, is to reference the ones that are more novel than others. By novel I don't mean original research, but a contribution that is uncommon enough or specific enough that citing the source is the most reasonable way to prove the assertion (ie: stating in Mexico that it borders the United Staes does not need a reference, because other, simpler methods, like looking at the map at the top, suffice). One of the reasons that I'm pretty sure that novel ideas are not likely to come from ON is that it looks like a tertiary source like Wikipedia. So it does not observe (primary) or assert (secondary), but rather it documents both of those. It is not in our nature to be novel, but to document the novel. That's why I feel fairly certain that many of the ON additions can be left unreferenced. And finally, if anyone sees any additions that do seem to be mostly novel, we can look at ON own sources and hove those become our own. I would have preferred that from the beginning, becaue that means our editors are having direct access to the works, and not having another level of someone else's interpretation between. Dmcdevit· t 21:41, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
I've only been editing on one of the pages in question, but after reading through the discussion, here's my take on the matter:
The simpler question is that of copyright: Copy/pasting entire sections of an article (from ON or elsewhere) is a copyvio, no matter if you put a reference ot not, unless the source article is in the PD or under a licence that permits it, or unless the person doing the copying is the copyright holder (who by that act puts the content under the GFDL). An exception would be a citation, e.g. "The ON article on Foo says: yadda yadda yadda", which I don't think is what we're after here. So to use any significant amounts of ON content without rewriting it completely, there would have to be permission from the original author. At least it's not apparent to me from the ON page that their content would be under any free licence (nor is it obvious if ON or the original author holds the copyright).
The real part of the dispute seems to relate to a disagreement on what the purpose of references is. Mark and Uriah have argued that the content and the reference should both stay or both be deleted. This seems to be based on the notion that references exist primarily for the reason of giving credit to the original source of some content. They do have that function in scientific papers to a certain extent, where not claiming somebody else's work for your own is simply a question of academic honesty. However, a wikipedia article is not a scientific paper. In an encyclopedia article, there is no danger of claiming an idea for your own when it isn't, simply because an encyclopedia article is not supposed to contain original research; it all comes from *somewhere*. The purpose of references on wikipedia is not to give credit, but to make it possible (and easy) for the reader to verify the content of the article. For this purpose, a reference to ON is of limited use, because it leaves the reader with the same problem: Instead of determining the veracity of a wikipedia article, he now as to verify the veracity of an ON article, which is also "just some random website". Now, the ON articles I have looked at tend to have extensive references to more reliable sources at the bottom. So instead of pointing the reader to them indirectly via ON, the relevant references should just be directly referenced in the wikipedia article. If the ON article provides additional information beyond the scope of the wikipedia article in question, it could for example be linked in External Links. -- K. Sperling ( talk) 12:49, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
The solution may be simple - for any material sourced from ON, the citation should be of the form:
and that article could be woirtten in a NPoV style, witha smge loink to the ON home page. Andy Mabbett 18:21, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I have seen better treatments of [the history of hypertext] in children's books designed for third grade elementary school students (yes, my research for my senior thesis was that thorough). The article is flawed as follows: it fails to mention Douglas Engelbart, Paul Otlet, or Charles Goldfarb; it mischaracterizes hypertext as merely "sitting around" for two decades when NASA, Carnegie-Mellon, Brown, the U.S. Navy, and about a dozen private companies were trying to make it practical; it mentions the "world wide web" when nearly all sources from that period used "WorldWideWeb," and it also ignores Norman Meyrowitz, IRIS, and Intermedia. The clown who wrote this needs to read Jakob Nielsen's magisterial books on the subject that were published in 1991 and 1995. -- Coolcaesar 08:53, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
What is the deadline to make a decision on each of these articles? Uriah923 06:59, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Below are listed the pages that previously contained ON references. Determine what content was added from the referenced ON article to ascertain its value. Review the referenced article to ascertain its quality. Then suggest what action should be taken (1-4, as described below) and give support under the appropriate heading below. Uriah923 15:43, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
After reviewing the discussion so far, I believe there is a clear consensus from everyone but those with a vested interest that ON is not suitable as a reference. As stated above I believe Uriah923 has kept it as an option as a last ditch effort to keep as many links to ON as possible. I am planning to remove it as an option to reflect the consensus, but I'll delay a bit in case I'm missing something. - Taxman Talk 16:17, September 3, 2005 (UTC)
See below for reasoning, but I have removed all links to ON from this page. The links for all listings below can be accessed through this permanent history link. - Taxman Talk 08:34, September 10, 2005 (UTC)
(See this diff page for what ON content was added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
The ON article has much valuable and quality info on the topic, so I think it should be added as an external link. Uriah923 19:17, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Support for option 3
Support for option 4
(See this diff page for what ON content was added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
The added content isn't obvious, but it could be found in a different, more history-oriented reference. The information on the ON article, however, is of high quality and contains much valuable information. I suggest it be added as a link in the External links section. Uriah923 19:29, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Support for option 3
Support for option 4
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
This content is valuable, but a better quality source could be found - although I don't know where. Uriah923 19:48, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Support for option 3
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
This content is valuable and is most likely not available anywhere else. Uriah923 19:48, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Support for option 1
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 1
Support for option 3
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
Support for option 4
(See this diff page for ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 1
Support for option 3
Support for option 4
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
(See this diff page for ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
(See this diff page for the ON contents added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 1
Support for option 3
(See this diff page for ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 2
(See this diff page for ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
(See this diff page for ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 2
Support for option 3
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.) Support for option 3
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
Support for option 4
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article] for the work cited.)
The added content is valuable, as direct quotes were even requested. The ON article, however, does not provide sources, so these need to be obtained. Uriah923 21:32, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Support for option 2
(See this diff page for ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
Support for option 4
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
(See this page for ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
(See this diff page for ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 1
Support for option 2
(See this diff page for ON content additions. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
(See this page for ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
The author of the ON article cited has already removed the content from this page. I consider it valuable and not obvious. As such, if an equivalent source cannot be provided and the ON reference is not re-added, the content must remain deleted. Uriah923 17:47, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't think any of it is novel, and could simply be gathered from other Wikipedia articles on the given topics. But if the copyright holder removed it we should respect that, and instead, either redo the material, or leave it out. - Taxman Talk 19:28, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
Support for option 2
Support for option 3
Support for option 4
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
Support for option 4
Based on a couple factors I would consider the issue over and I have removed the links to the ON articles so that we don't feed SEO. Reasoning: 1) there is strong consensus that the ON links are not appropriate references, and should not be added to any Wikipedia articles unless added by longstanding users not associated with ON. 2) I don't have time to look through all of these and it doesn't seem like anyone else does either. Therefore, I think leaving the links out of any articles is the best course of action. However, if there is specific reason to believe there is copyright violation in any of these, I'll make an effort to review those specifically. - Taxman Talk 08:34, September 10, 2005 (UTC)
As a follow up to the above, it has become increasingly clear that Uriah923's only motive is to try to have as many links as possible to ON from wikipedia. It essentially amounts to an SEO and linkspam campaign, in violation of Wikipedia's aims and policies. Uriah has very few contributions outside of efforts to directly support having links to ON, and almost none since those efforts have been challenged. Once it became clear consensus on this page was against him, all of his efforts have been to spread the conversation over a number of pages in an effort catch people sleeping and try again and again to get the links into articles despite consensus against it. Those articles include Talk:ITunes, Talk:After Virtue, Talk:Comparison of operating systems, Talk:Routing.
Between this page and those I believe that due to the SEO and linkspam implications there is a clear consensus that links to ON should not be in Wikipedia articles unless added by a longstanding contributor, and not prompted by Uriah. Editors that have expressed this sentement include:
I think I may have missed some, but I also think it is clear that is enough. The only editor disagreeing with that is Uriah923 and possibly MarkMcB, the founder of ON, though I think he long ago reallized consensus was against him. - Taxman Talk 20:26, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
This conversation is old. I think that everything has worked out the way it should. I have made more than the "three good months of editing articles without adding links" and have shown my ability to approach any NPOV issues appropriately. Let's just leave this horrible page to slowly die. uriah923( talk) 14:48, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
These discussions were moved from Talk:ITunes#Blacklist_issues, m:Talk:Spam_blacklist#omninerd.com, Talk:Battle of Poitiers (1356)#Add external link section?, and Talk:Conventional_warfare#Alleged_linkspam, in order to minimize SEO. TheJabberwock 22:08, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
I noticed Iamthejabberwock removed ( diff) the external link on this page, calling it "linkspam." Although it would violate NPOV for me to re-add the link (as I am an admin on the site on which the article is published), I disagree with the removal. Therefore, I brought the issue up to Iamthejabberwock on his talk page. He then referenced a previous disagreement to justify the removal. I want to make it clear that issue is in the past. This link, therefore, should be evaluated on its merits, not on the letters in its URL.
My opinion is that the article linked to is well-written, well-sourced, knowledgeable on the subject, and is a reasonably complete analysis of conventional warfare. It contains "neutral and accurate material not already in the article" and "meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion" - both criteria that qualify an external link in WP policy. While I understand the need to prevent spam on WP, I can't see how this would be such a case.
I hope those interested will evaluate the situation and weigh in. uriah923( talk) 22:43, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
The issue's not in the past anymore and I've removed the link again. There's no overriding reason a WP article needs external links unless to link to a particularly prominent site or as a very weak form of referencing. What our articles really need is high quality
reliable sources. So if someone wants to go to the ON article and use it to look up the references it cites, and use those, that would be valuable for Wikipedia. But in light of the SEO campaign that's been going on for this site, I see no benefit that's worth ignoring the problems. -
Taxman
Talk 23:04, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Answer to above comments: What I've been doing is exactly playing by the rules. How many people do you know that get an admin to review their external link addition and leave the admin to actually add the link themselves? I went far beyond my Wikipedia call of duty out of respect for the previous problems. I assumed bad faith and took into account the possibility that others would misinterpret my actions. I was 100% transparent about my relationship with the site. The admins with which I interacted even vouched for my conduct (see Talk:ITunes#Blacklist_issues). The only thing to be done beyond that would have been a self-imposed straight out gag-order - which is completely unjustified.
Seriously. Now that the shouts of accusation have died down, can you really identify anything SEO campaign-y anywhere? What is it, exactly, about what has been going on that is similar to an SEO campaign? For the life of me, I can't think if anything. Nothing against WP policy. No mass links. Only a certain eight letter word that starts with "o" and ends with "nerd" in the middle of a URL on an article, added by an unaffiliated editor/admin, perfectly on topic, relevant, and following WP policy.
Anyway, I feel better after getting that off my chest. I know you haven't really done anything but listen, but if you are ever up for adminship, I can vouch for you. (Or are you already an admin?) Thank you for being reasonable. I also appreciate the link you stuck on the Battle of Poitiers (1356) article, but you have to admit the one Taxman removed blows that one out of the water. It's not even a close comparison.
As for moving everything to that site, my gut reaction is to avoid it. This is the only site on which there is a conversation going and moving everything to that site last time didn't end well at all. I put a lot of effort into compiling information and organizing votes, and in the end, it seemed that Taxman (and others) were just annoyed I hadn't dropped it all. So much so that (in my opinion) they made a pact to keep ON content off of WP forever - not because the site contained anything even remotely close to spam, but because they just didn't like me. Now there is this huge page that Taxman references frequently to support his case. It doesn't really do that, but it's so long, who is really going to know the difference?
So where do we go from here? You mentioned there was a possibility that the ON links were doing harm. Would it not be a good idea to investigate and see if they are? Maybe you could look at the links Taxman removed with an impartial perspective? Seriously look at the content, compare it to the other links/references on the WP article, and see if you think it worthy. What would you think about that? uriah923( talk) 07:05, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
No, it was based on exactly the type of promotional campaign you're doing right now, and very clearly called for stopping it. It was a specific consensus against you promoting your site. You're continually choosing to waste more time on an issue that could be better spent helping the project. Your actions make it very clear the only thing you care about is promoting your site and getting links to it. We don't want it. How many people need to tell you that? Things went poorly last time for the same reason they're going poorly for you now. Your actions in this matter are not helping the project. They are a drain. And now you want to spend hundreds more hours in an RFC or arbitration case to establish exactly what has already been established? It's all moot anyway since the site is on the blacklist and based on your behavior I don't see much chance it will come off of it. - Taxman Talk 23:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I found this article that examines primary sources to determine more exactly the role of the Duke of Orleans at the Battle of Poitiers:
What does everyone think about adding it as an external link to this page? 204.126.127.253 17:21, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
The external link has been replaced in this diff by what I think is a downgrade. The new link is a tertiary source while the previous link was a secondary source. I'm not surprised at the change however; Taxman has gone through and removed any and all links to the site on which the previous external link was published. He thinks it and I are part of a linkspam operation. He will likely follow my contributions here and post a sharp reply referencing this altercation we had a few months ago. It is very lengthy but essentially consists of Taxman telling me not to add links to anything published on that website, me arguing, repeat. It is my opinion that he holds a grudge against me and the site because of that altercation and is unable to objectively evaluate situations such as this. I will not re-add the link as I am affiliated with the site, but I hope other editors will evaluate the situation and not be intimidated by long arguments or an admin vendetta. The articles speak for themselves; any bickering or grudges between me and Taxman should not be a part of it. uriah923( talk) 23:59, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
It also appears that he requested the site be put on the blacklist. This is in direct violation of blacklist policy. In the meantime, I will change the domain in the above URL to "oooonnnn". uriah923( talk) 23:59, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Full discussion archived there.
A reference was recently removed to [(check the page history for the link) this page] because it was not deemed worthy. It was also suggested that the article's own references be substituted. It is obvious that the remover did not review the content of the article in suggesting this, as such a substitution would be complete nonsense. However, if the previously referenced article is not a proper reference because it is not a peer-reviewed journal or a textbook, then why not have it as an external link? The article has very valuable information that is not available anywhere else. Uriah923 16:44, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
The following content was also removed by Taxman with the same allegation of spam: "More information concerning this feature and the algorithm used is available [(check the page history for the link) here]." Again, I assert that the allegations are empty and that the content should be replaced. Uriah923 20:07, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Man, you guys are frustrating (except for Barefootguru, who seems to be the only one not on a crazy anti-ON rampage). How about we start this discussion over? I won't put in any links (I didn't know links on Talk pages had any SEO implications) and I will discontinue discussions on all other pages to avoid accusations of "divide and conquer." We can all take a deep breath and then take a thorough OBJECTIVE look at this one particular case. Uriah923 14:50, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Concerning a link to link removed to avoid SEO see page history in an external link section:
Merits: The article was posted on Slashdot, is currently linked to by hundreds of sites and is in the process of being published. It is well written and contains valuable and interesting content not found in the Wikipedia article. The site is not commercial and contains no advertisements.
Faults: The person who started this discussion and wants the link added is suspected of having SEO motivations.
Support
Undecided
Opposition
Due to ON being added to a blacklist here, Barefootguru has commented out the two ON references. It is my opinion that the black-listing is in error. There was a previous issue with me adding links to the site, but this has been resolved. I have refrained from adding any links (to maintain NPOV, as I am an admin on the site), and I have demonstrated my interest in Wikipedia (see my user contributions). In cases where I think an article published on ON would be of benefit, I list it as a comment and ask an unrelated admin with interest in the site to review the addition and un-comment it, if it is found worthy. That is what happened on this site the first ON reference (see this diff for the addition of the commented-out reference and this diff for the un-commenting (?) by Mushroom). Recently, another pertinent article was published on ON, and I started to follow the same procedure ( diff), but the blacklist addition locked up the site.
I don't know much about how the blacklist thing works, but it appears the site would have to be listed here to be considered for removal. I was about to list it myself, but I don't know if that would taint the request, given my affiliation with the site.
Will those interested please review the issue and comment here. I would like to know what course of action I should take. Thanks in advance for your help. uriah923( talk) 06:14, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I have read up some on the blacklist and listed the site for removal from the blacklist here. uriah923( talk) 06:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Essjay has responded to the inquiry. I have also replied there and included more information on the blacklist talk page. It appears the best course of action would be to comment there. Mushroom & Barefoot, would you please? I'm not sure if it would speed up the process, but it couldn't hurt. Also, you are impartial witnesses of the value of at least some of the articles posted on ON - enough that it shouldn't be blacklisted. Additionally, blacklist policy specifically states that sites should not be listed if the issues with them can be resolved using the normal methods (blocking & protecting). This is, obviously, one of those cases. uriah923( talk) 02:23, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
The blacklisting has been removed. I will go in an fix the link text, but someone else needs to remove the commenting to maintain NPOV. uriah923( talk) 07:04, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Oh, good grief. This is like the San Antonio toll-road thing... people arguing, each side saying things about the other side that are questionable, dubious assumptions, statements that may be false, etc. without a neutral party. I see no purpose in this. This is like one person saying 2 + 2 = 4 while another is saying 2 + 2 = 5 when both have there own ideas of the value of 2. I can see how this was a valid argument before, but it looks like it's become more like a personal conflict. -- Samuel 69105 01:10, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
This page has been used as the single place to discuss the issue around the links to a domain that has now been placed on the Wikimedia spam blacklist. See m:Spam blacklist/recurring requests for a special subpage that has been created in response to the situation. See also m:Talk:Spam blacklist/archive for further details.
The following is a combination of discussion that originated here, and discussion that was moved here from elsewhere. The alleged consensus that was originally developed is in the section #Even more clarity. A number of additional conversations have been had, including on the administrator's noticeboard, which can be seen by following the 'What links here' link in the toolbox to the left. For any additional conversation, create a new section at the bottom of this page. - Taxman Talk 21:31, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
As of now, all of the ON references throughout Wikipedia have been removed by Dmcdevit, and yet the content remains. This site is to discuss the proper course of action concerning content from and references to ON articles.
I have inserted the pertinent conversations here and hope all of those involved will contribute under the Resolution heading so a decision can be reached and we can move on. Uriah923 06:10, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Uriah, I don't want to be insensitive, but your position has been completely strange. You've been adding links to ON all over the place. Why? Your links have been deleted many times, by different people, who've asked you to stop the obvious link spamming. ON is not a noteworthy web site (yet, maybe some day). Why don't you promote the site through other means, besides Wikipedia external links? Jehochman 05:35, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Please do not add commercial links or links to your own private websites to Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a vehicle for advertising or a mere collection of external links. See the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. Thanks. – ⟳ausa کui × 06:19, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
That's probably part of the problem: that you don't understand the difference between high quality references and low quality ones. Think about the reasons behind references, trust and verifiability. So sources that are well respected by others are higher quality. For example journal reveiw articles in prominent journals and well regarded textbooks are among the highest quality available. About as low quality as possible are random people's opinions including self published books and websites where anything can be published, and there is no editorial policy or respect. Wikipedia potentially suffers from the same problem and the only way out is to use high quality references and use them accurately. This is not just my opinion, this is just how it works. You need to learn about and use higher quality references. Don't spend anymore time asking why your links aren't high quality, go learn for yourself. - Taxman Talk 20:43, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
I was recently blocked by Dmcdevit and this is in violation of the Wikipedia: blocking policy. First, we are currently engaged in multiple disputes and the policy specifies that "users should not block those with whom they are currently engaged in conflict." Also, I have not committed any of the violations listed in the policy. Uriah923 20:07, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
As it was decided in the above discussion, I am going to remove all ON references as well as the content I added from them to the Wikipedia articles. After doing so, a discussion will be opened on the respective talk page in order to discuss the value of the content and the quality of the source and to decide the proper course of action.
I have created a sub-page for general discussion with respect to ON content and the quality ON articles as sources. This page will also contains links to each of the discussions as I open them. Uriah923 22:20, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
You can't just arbitrarily delete a web reference. Wikipedia is about citing sources, and anything using the {{ web reference}} template is just that, a citation. I will now be going through your contribution history to make sure you haven't done this elsewhere. ¦ Reisio 23:03, 2005 September 1 (UTC)
I understand what you're -trying- to do with cleaning up linkspam and it's understood. What I don't understand is why you delete references without deleting the content they reference in the wiki pages. I have added some considerable content to a few pages both with my name and anonymously when I forget. If you feel that all ON links need to be removed, then by all means, delete away. I apologize for trying to fill in the gaps on wiki with the content that is posted on ON. I don't speak for Uriah, he's just a member of the site. I am the owner of it. We, like wiki, try to gather credible information. A few months ago when it was mentioned, we said it might be nice to take the info our users were giving us and fill in some gaps in wikipedia which we often use to learn about a variety of topics. So, I apologize if you or any other admin views this as spam. We're just trying to help the cause. You will note that in several articles on ON, wikipedia is cited since that's where the info came from. I just find it odd that you have info on your site from ON that is accepted because it doesn't get deleted, yet you have no issues deleting the reference.
So my point is this, if you're going to delete the reference, do the academic thing and delete the content that goes with it rather than taking it for your own. Just my thoughts after reading your conversation with Uriah (I was the anon comment, not him) and watching your indiscriminate deletions. I'll be sure to avoid adding content in the future. MarkMcB 21:02, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
That was my misunderstanding - but if we remove the references, the content should also be removed. ¦ Reisio 23:16, 2005 September 1 (UTC)
First, wiki is a great idea. I use the site quite often. But what baffles me is the resistence to content additions. I have written a few original article on various aspects of computing. Using these articles as a reference, I added content to wiki pages and then referenced my articles. Apparently that's "linkspam." Fine, whatever. I just think it's sad to delete content because of what you "think" it might be, ESPECIALLY when there is a section on a wiki page that says "needs to be added." Oh well, I guess I'll just be a user and not a contributor. MarkMcB 20:48, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Please do not delete valid article content. This is basically vandalism if it isn't being removed because of the merit of the content itself. Dmcdevit· t 22:30, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
I have copied this conversation to the sub-page set up specifically for this purpose so a decision can be made. Please continue there. Uriah923 05:53, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Mark, as a non-admin, and somewhat of a new user myself I completely understand where you might have felt wronged. The main issues here, as I see them, are that your site, ON, was not deemed notable enough (based on a written Wikipedia guideline which factors in Alexa ranking and Google hits [called a "Google test"]). In addition, the article, written by two of the site's creators, can, and usually will be seen as "vanity"—you are writing an article on something you created. Sadly, "quality" of the site has no reflection on notability, and I urge you to recreate it once it reaches a level of necissity. Your "link spam" as it is called, meant that you were linking articles to your own site, that, as decided on your VfD, was not notable enough for its own article. Spam, as it's called means that you continually linked to your site in several different articles, a seemingly obvious ploy for more traffic. My first article, a joke, was deleted, leaving me feeling quite saddened and betrayed. I quickly realized that I had made a mistake, and am now somewhat of an active user. And I encourage you to do so as well, we need as many good people as we can get. Thanks a lot, - Sun glasses at night 01:21, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
If ON is so notable, why is there no article on it? Andy Mabbett 06:58, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
All those who have familiarized themselves with this dispute, please weigh in here.
Just to throw a two cents in - I see Mark's point though. If we are to cite sources, then if the information added comes from ON and nowhere else, then one of two things should happen:
I'm not sure there's a middle ground here that isn't logically contradictory. Of course, if the information can be primarily derived from elsewhere, let's do that (i.e. if ON is merely a secondary source). But the non-notability of ON is not an issue if the quality of the information is considered good enough to include. And if the quality is not good enough, then I don't see why it should be included. To state the blatantly obvious: the point of providing footnotes, or references, or sources is so that readers and verify for themselves that the information is indeed accurate.
I am also uncertain that ON necessarily qualifies as linkspam. It does not seem to be advert-based (or maybe that's my ultra efficient Adblocker working) or a commercial site. If the link leads to an article that provides more information, and is useful, I don't see why it should be barred, unless there's something more fundamental I'm missing here.
What it boils down to is simply this - either ON is a good enough source, therefore it should be linked, or it isn't, and the information that it provided towards the article should be gotten rid of. -- khaosworks ( talk • contribs) 06:12, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes. When I said earlier that many (not all or even most) of your contributions were "aesthetic," you took it as an affront: that I was accusing you of not adding content. Let me say that doing cleanup is a Good Thing, and it is often neglected here and it is appreciated. Having said that, that action is separate from the issue being discussed here. As far as I'm aware, most of the other contributions are, as Zora said earlier, almost "common knowledge". It's like before I tried to say that some of your contributions could be useful without being novel enough to warrant the ON reference. What I mean by that is this: It is not practical or possible to cite every assertion in every article. What can be done, or at least what we strive to do, is to reference the ones that are more novel than others. By novel I don't mean original research, but a contribution that is uncommon enough or specific enough that citing the source is the most reasonable way to prove the assertion (ie: stating in Mexico that it borders the United Staes does not need a reference, because other, simpler methods, like looking at the map at the top, suffice). One of the reasons that I'm pretty sure that novel ideas are not likely to come from ON is that it looks like a tertiary source like Wikipedia. So it does not observe (primary) or assert (secondary), but rather it documents both of those. It is not in our nature to be novel, but to document the novel. That's why I feel fairly certain that many of the ON additions can be left unreferenced. And finally, if anyone sees any additions that do seem to be mostly novel, we can look at ON own sources and hove those become our own. I would have preferred that from the beginning, becaue that means our editors are having direct access to the works, and not having another level of someone else's interpretation between. Dmcdevit· t 21:41, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
I've only been editing on one of the pages in question, but after reading through the discussion, here's my take on the matter:
The simpler question is that of copyright: Copy/pasting entire sections of an article (from ON or elsewhere) is a copyvio, no matter if you put a reference ot not, unless the source article is in the PD or under a licence that permits it, or unless the person doing the copying is the copyright holder (who by that act puts the content under the GFDL). An exception would be a citation, e.g. "The ON article on Foo says: yadda yadda yadda", which I don't think is what we're after here. So to use any significant amounts of ON content without rewriting it completely, there would have to be permission from the original author. At least it's not apparent to me from the ON page that their content would be under any free licence (nor is it obvious if ON or the original author holds the copyright).
The real part of the dispute seems to relate to a disagreement on what the purpose of references is. Mark and Uriah have argued that the content and the reference should both stay or both be deleted. This seems to be based on the notion that references exist primarily for the reason of giving credit to the original source of some content. They do have that function in scientific papers to a certain extent, where not claiming somebody else's work for your own is simply a question of academic honesty. However, a wikipedia article is not a scientific paper. In an encyclopedia article, there is no danger of claiming an idea for your own when it isn't, simply because an encyclopedia article is not supposed to contain original research; it all comes from *somewhere*. The purpose of references on wikipedia is not to give credit, but to make it possible (and easy) for the reader to verify the content of the article. For this purpose, a reference to ON is of limited use, because it leaves the reader with the same problem: Instead of determining the veracity of a wikipedia article, he now as to verify the veracity of an ON article, which is also "just some random website". Now, the ON articles I have looked at tend to have extensive references to more reliable sources at the bottom. So instead of pointing the reader to them indirectly via ON, the relevant references should just be directly referenced in the wikipedia article. If the ON article provides additional information beyond the scope of the wikipedia article in question, it could for example be linked in External Links. -- K. Sperling ( talk) 12:49, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
The solution may be simple - for any material sourced from ON, the citation should be of the form:
and that article could be woirtten in a NPoV style, witha smge loink to the ON home page. Andy Mabbett 18:21, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I have seen better treatments of [the history of hypertext] in children's books designed for third grade elementary school students (yes, my research for my senior thesis was that thorough). The article is flawed as follows: it fails to mention Douglas Engelbart, Paul Otlet, or Charles Goldfarb; it mischaracterizes hypertext as merely "sitting around" for two decades when NASA, Carnegie-Mellon, Brown, the U.S. Navy, and about a dozen private companies were trying to make it practical; it mentions the "world wide web" when nearly all sources from that period used "WorldWideWeb," and it also ignores Norman Meyrowitz, IRIS, and Intermedia. The clown who wrote this needs to read Jakob Nielsen's magisterial books on the subject that were published in 1991 and 1995. -- Coolcaesar 08:53, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
What is the deadline to make a decision on each of these articles? Uriah923 06:59, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Below are listed the pages that previously contained ON references. Determine what content was added from the referenced ON article to ascertain its value. Review the referenced article to ascertain its quality. Then suggest what action should be taken (1-4, as described below) and give support under the appropriate heading below. Uriah923 15:43, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
After reviewing the discussion so far, I believe there is a clear consensus from everyone but those with a vested interest that ON is not suitable as a reference. As stated above I believe Uriah923 has kept it as an option as a last ditch effort to keep as many links to ON as possible. I am planning to remove it as an option to reflect the consensus, but I'll delay a bit in case I'm missing something. - Taxman Talk 16:17, September 3, 2005 (UTC)
See below for reasoning, but I have removed all links to ON from this page. The links for all listings below can be accessed through this permanent history link. - Taxman Talk 08:34, September 10, 2005 (UTC)
(See this diff page for what ON content was added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
The ON article has much valuable and quality info on the topic, so I think it should be added as an external link. Uriah923 19:17, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Support for option 3
Support for option 4
(See this diff page for what ON content was added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
The added content isn't obvious, but it could be found in a different, more history-oriented reference. The information on the ON article, however, is of high quality and contains much valuable information. I suggest it be added as a link in the External links section. Uriah923 19:29, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Support for option 3
Support for option 4
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
This content is valuable, but a better quality source could be found - although I don't know where. Uriah923 19:48, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Support for option 3
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
This content is valuable and is most likely not available anywhere else. Uriah923 19:48, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Support for option 1
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 1
Support for option 3
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
Support for option 4
(See this diff page for ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 1
Support for option 3
Support for option 4
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
(See this diff page for ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
(See this diff page for the ON contents added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 1
Support for option 3
(See this diff page for ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 2
(See this diff page for ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
(See this diff page for ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 2
Support for option 3
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.) Support for option 3
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
Support for option 4
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article] for the work cited.)
The added content is valuable, as direct quotes were even requested. The ON article, however, does not provide sources, so these need to be obtained. Uriah923 21:32, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Support for option 2
(See this diff page for ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
Support for option 4
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
(See this page for ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
(See this diff page for ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 1
Support for option 2
(See this diff page for ON content additions. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
(See this page for ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
The author of the ON article cited has already removed the content from this page. I consider it valuable and not obvious. As such, if an equivalent source cannot be provided and the ON reference is not re-added, the content must remain deleted. Uriah923 17:47, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't think any of it is novel, and could simply be gathered from other Wikipedia articles on the given topics. But if the copyright holder removed it we should respect that, and instead, either redo the material, or leave it out. - Taxman Talk 19:28, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
Support for option 2
Support for option 3
Support for option 4
(See this diff page for the ON content added. See the ON article for the work cited.)
Support for option 3
Support for option 4
Based on a couple factors I would consider the issue over and I have removed the links to the ON articles so that we don't feed SEO. Reasoning: 1) there is strong consensus that the ON links are not appropriate references, and should not be added to any Wikipedia articles unless added by longstanding users not associated with ON. 2) I don't have time to look through all of these and it doesn't seem like anyone else does either. Therefore, I think leaving the links out of any articles is the best course of action. However, if there is specific reason to believe there is copyright violation in any of these, I'll make an effort to review those specifically. - Taxman Talk 08:34, September 10, 2005 (UTC)
As a follow up to the above, it has become increasingly clear that Uriah923's only motive is to try to have as many links as possible to ON from wikipedia. It essentially amounts to an SEO and linkspam campaign, in violation of Wikipedia's aims and policies. Uriah has very few contributions outside of efforts to directly support having links to ON, and almost none since those efforts have been challenged. Once it became clear consensus on this page was against him, all of his efforts have been to spread the conversation over a number of pages in an effort catch people sleeping and try again and again to get the links into articles despite consensus against it. Those articles include Talk:ITunes, Talk:After Virtue, Talk:Comparison of operating systems, Talk:Routing.
Between this page and those I believe that due to the SEO and linkspam implications there is a clear consensus that links to ON should not be in Wikipedia articles unless added by a longstanding contributor, and not prompted by Uriah. Editors that have expressed this sentement include:
I think I may have missed some, but I also think it is clear that is enough. The only editor disagreeing with that is Uriah923 and possibly MarkMcB, the founder of ON, though I think he long ago reallized consensus was against him. - Taxman Talk 20:26, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
This conversation is old. I think that everything has worked out the way it should. I have made more than the "three good months of editing articles without adding links" and have shown my ability to approach any NPOV issues appropriately. Let's just leave this horrible page to slowly die. uriah923( talk) 14:48, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
These discussions were moved from Talk:ITunes#Blacklist_issues, m:Talk:Spam_blacklist#omninerd.com, Talk:Battle of Poitiers (1356)#Add external link section?, and Talk:Conventional_warfare#Alleged_linkspam, in order to minimize SEO. TheJabberwock 22:08, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
I noticed Iamthejabberwock removed ( diff) the external link on this page, calling it "linkspam." Although it would violate NPOV for me to re-add the link (as I am an admin on the site on which the article is published), I disagree with the removal. Therefore, I brought the issue up to Iamthejabberwock on his talk page. He then referenced a previous disagreement to justify the removal. I want to make it clear that issue is in the past. This link, therefore, should be evaluated on its merits, not on the letters in its URL.
My opinion is that the article linked to is well-written, well-sourced, knowledgeable on the subject, and is a reasonably complete analysis of conventional warfare. It contains "neutral and accurate material not already in the article" and "meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion" - both criteria that qualify an external link in WP policy. While I understand the need to prevent spam on WP, I can't see how this would be such a case.
I hope those interested will evaluate the situation and weigh in. uriah923( talk) 22:43, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
The issue's not in the past anymore and I've removed the link again. There's no overriding reason a WP article needs external links unless to link to a particularly prominent site or as a very weak form of referencing. What our articles really need is high quality
reliable sources. So if someone wants to go to the ON article and use it to look up the references it cites, and use those, that would be valuable for Wikipedia. But in light of the SEO campaign that's been going on for this site, I see no benefit that's worth ignoring the problems. -
Taxman
Talk 23:04, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Answer to above comments: What I've been doing is exactly playing by the rules. How many people do you know that get an admin to review their external link addition and leave the admin to actually add the link themselves? I went far beyond my Wikipedia call of duty out of respect for the previous problems. I assumed bad faith and took into account the possibility that others would misinterpret my actions. I was 100% transparent about my relationship with the site. The admins with which I interacted even vouched for my conduct (see Talk:ITunes#Blacklist_issues). The only thing to be done beyond that would have been a self-imposed straight out gag-order - which is completely unjustified.
Seriously. Now that the shouts of accusation have died down, can you really identify anything SEO campaign-y anywhere? What is it, exactly, about what has been going on that is similar to an SEO campaign? For the life of me, I can't think if anything. Nothing against WP policy. No mass links. Only a certain eight letter word that starts with "o" and ends with "nerd" in the middle of a URL on an article, added by an unaffiliated editor/admin, perfectly on topic, relevant, and following WP policy.
Anyway, I feel better after getting that off my chest. I know you haven't really done anything but listen, but if you are ever up for adminship, I can vouch for you. (Or are you already an admin?) Thank you for being reasonable. I also appreciate the link you stuck on the Battle of Poitiers (1356) article, but you have to admit the one Taxman removed blows that one out of the water. It's not even a close comparison.
As for moving everything to that site, my gut reaction is to avoid it. This is the only site on which there is a conversation going and moving everything to that site last time didn't end well at all. I put a lot of effort into compiling information and organizing votes, and in the end, it seemed that Taxman (and others) were just annoyed I hadn't dropped it all. So much so that (in my opinion) they made a pact to keep ON content off of WP forever - not because the site contained anything even remotely close to spam, but because they just didn't like me. Now there is this huge page that Taxman references frequently to support his case. It doesn't really do that, but it's so long, who is really going to know the difference?
So where do we go from here? You mentioned there was a possibility that the ON links were doing harm. Would it not be a good idea to investigate and see if they are? Maybe you could look at the links Taxman removed with an impartial perspective? Seriously look at the content, compare it to the other links/references on the WP article, and see if you think it worthy. What would you think about that? uriah923( talk) 07:05, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
No, it was based on exactly the type of promotional campaign you're doing right now, and very clearly called for stopping it. It was a specific consensus against you promoting your site. You're continually choosing to waste more time on an issue that could be better spent helping the project. Your actions make it very clear the only thing you care about is promoting your site and getting links to it. We don't want it. How many people need to tell you that? Things went poorly last time for the same reason they're going poorly for you now. Your actions in this matter are not helping the project. They are a drain. And now you want to spend hundreds more hours in an RFC or arbitration case to establish exactly what has already been established? It's all moot anyway since the site is on the blacklist and based on your behavior I don't see much chance it will come off of it. - Taxman Talk 23:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I found this article that examines primary sources to determine more exactly the role of the Duke of Orleans at the Battle of Poitiers:
What does everyone think about adding it as an external link to this page? 204.126.127.253 17:21, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
The external link has been replaced in this diff by what I think is a downgrade. The new link is a tertiary source while the previous link was a secondary source. I'm not surprised at the change however; Taxman has gone through and removed any and all links to the site on which the previous external link was published. He thinks it and I are part of a linkspam operation. He will likely follow my contributions here and post a sharp reply referencing this altercation we had a few months ago. It is very lengthy but essentially consists of Taxman telling me not to add links to anything published on that website, me arguing, repeat. It is my opinion that he holds a grudge against me and the site because of that altercation and is unable to objectively evaluate situations such as this. I will not re-add the link as I am affiliated with the site, but I hope other editors will evaluate the situation and not be intimidated by long arguments or an admin vendetta. The articles speak for themselves; any bickering or grudges between me and Taxman should not be a part of it. uriah923( talk) 23:59, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
It also appears that he requested the site be put on the blacklist. This is in direct violation of blacklist policy. In the meantime, I will change the domain in the above URL to "oooonnnn". uriah923( talk) 23:59, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Full discussion archived there.
A reference was recently removed to [(check the page history for the link) this page] because it was not deemed worthy. It was also suggested that the article's own references be substituted. It is obvious that the remover did not review the content of the article in suggesting this, as such a substitution would be complete nonsense. However, if the previously referenced article is not a proper reference because it is not a peer-reviewed journal or a textbook, then why not have it as an external link? The article has very valuable information that is not available anywhere else. Uriah923 16:44, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
The following content was also removed by Taxman with the same allegation of spam: "More information concerning this feature and the algorithm used is available [(check the page history for the link) here]." Again, I assert that the allegations are empty and that the content should be replaced. Uriah923 20:07, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Man, you guys are frustrating (except for Barefootguru, who seems to be the only one not on a crazy anti-ON rampage). How about we start this discussion over? I won't put in any links (I didn't know links on Talk pages had any SEO implications) and I will discontinue discussions on all other pages to avoid accusations of "divide and conquer." We can all take a deep breath and then take a thorough OBJECTIVE look at this one particular case. Uriah923 14:50, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Concerning a link to link removed to avoid SEO see page history in an external link section:
Merits: The article was posted on Slashdot, is currently linked to by hundreds of sites and is in the process of being published. It is well written and contains valuable and interesting content not found in the Wikipedia article. The site is not commercial and contains no advertisements.
Faults: The person who started this discussion and wants the link added is suspected of having SEO motivations.
Support
Undecided
Opposition
Due to ON being added to a blacklist here, Barefootguru has commented out the two ON references. It is my opinion that the black-listing is in error. There was a previous issue with me adding links to the site, but this has been resolved. I have refrained from adding any links (to maintain NPOV, as I am an admin on the site), and I have demonstrated my interest in Wikipedia (see my user contributions). In cases where I think an article published on ON would be of benefit, I list it as a comment and ask an unrelated admin with interest in the site to review the addition and un-comment it, if it is found worthy. That is what happened on this site the first ON reference (see this diff for the addition of the commented-out reference and this diff for the un-commenting (?) by Mushroom). Recently, another pertinent article was published on ON, and I started to follow the same procedure ( diff), but the blacklist addition locked up the site.
I don't know much about how the blacklist thing works, but it appears the site would have to be listed here to be considered for removal. I was about to list it myself, but I don't know if that would taint the request, given my affiliation with the site.
Will those interested please review the issue and comment here. I would like to know what course of action I should take. Thanks in advance for your help. uriah923( talk) 06:14, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I have read up some on the blacklist and listed the site for removal from the blacklist here. uriah923( talk) 06:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Essjay has responded to the inquiry. I have also replied there and included more information on the blacklist talk page. It appears the best course of action would be to comment there. Mushroom & Barefoot, would you please? I'm not sure if it would speed up the process, but it couldn't hurt. Also, you are impartial witnesses of the value of at least some of the articles posted on ON - enough that it shouldn't be blacklisted. Additionally, blacklist policy specifically states that sites should not be listed if the issues with them can be resolved using the normal methods (blocking & protecting). This is, obviously, one of those cases. uriah923( talk) 02:23, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
The blacklisting has been removed. I will go in an fix the link text, but someone else needs to remove the commenting to maintain NPOV. uriah923( talk) 07:04, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Oh, good grief. This is like the San Antonio toll-road thing... people arguing, each side saying things about the other side that are questionable, dubious assumptions, statements that may be false, etc. without a neutral party. I see no purpose in this. This is like one person saying 2 + 2 = 4 while another is saying 2 + 2 = 5 when both have there own ideas of the value of 2. I can see how this was a valid argument before, but it looks like it's become more like a personal conflict. -- Samuel 69105 01:10, 19 July 2006 (UTC)