Hi, and sorry for not showing up yesterday. I have had a couple of busy months, and I took a day off.
You ask my opinion about your plan, but I don't really understand what it is. I am too unfamiliar with the subject. Could you be more specific?
I was also thinking about making independent articles about the various shrine styles, including in each info about tsumairi, hirairi, ken and other stuff that would always be the same. I could then shorten the section in Shinto shrine and the article Shinto architecture would be far less important. Shouldn't take more than a day. What do you think?
One last thing: I fixed an error in the last citation in [[National Treasures of Japan]. Check the fix, please, because I am not sure I did the right thing.
Urashima Tarō (
talk) 05:53, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Urashima Tarō (
talk) 05:49, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
I spent the morning re-checking the styles section of Shinto shrine, and did a robust job of typo fixing. (I must say I am not particularly proud of my work, in this case.) I then created nagare-zukuri, kasuga-zukuri, ishinoma-zukuri, hachiman-zukuri, hiyoshi-zukuri and irimoya-zukuri. Tomorrow will finish. BTW, thanks for your help. So far our partnership has turned out to be more useful to me than to you. I hope this will change in the future. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 04:28, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
I am happy to hear you think so. I discovered new material. It will take some time to finish the articles. Some ( nagare-zukuri, for example) are no longer stubs. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 06:43, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
I went through the national treasure shrine list and wikilinked the style articles. Do you think that kirizuma-zukuri, ryōsage-zukuri and yosemune-zukuri deserve their own article? bamse ( talk) 16:16, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Kirizuma is a gabled roof, so a link to gabled roof will be probably enough, but it may deserve a stub with a link to gabled roof. I will do that. The other styles? I don't think so, but there are plenty of other -zukuri to go around, so some kind of policy is necessary. What I will probably do is:
Later I plan to rewrite all articles for clarity. If I had known in the beginning what I know now, I would have written them differently.
Let me know if you agree or not with my plans, and if you have ideas or proposals. BTW, do you understand this? 一間隅木入春日造型
One more thing: I hadn't noticed the article irimoya. Perhaps I should merge the two, and change one into a redirect. What do you think? Urashima Tarō ( talk) 03:52, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Bamse. I will proceed with our plans. The template would be very useful. Can you create it? If so, please go ahead with it (if you have time).
The navbar is great, and I see it's easy to edit, so I can modify it myself if I need to. If you want, I can paste it in place myself tomorrow. Just two things, if I may:
Historic monuments of ancient Kyoto (Kyoto, Uji and Otsu cities).
Urashima Tarō ( talk) 12:50, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the template. Very good.I used and modified it today (just very minor changes).
About the expressions, you are of course right. If they are fixed expressions, they should be in capitals.
Much more work to be done on Shinto architecture, but it's already better than it was. Any suggestions for additions or changes?
Now for a while I won't write anything new, but clean up what is already there. I have already started cleaning up what I did, here and there. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 05:34, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Bamse. All those parts the unknown fellow wrote (from where your quotations come) will go in due course. I don't think there's much to salvage. About the section Origins, I for the time can put mine taken from Shinto Shrine, but yours from List of National Treasures of Japan (shrines) is far better. Would you mind pasting it in? I didn't do it because I know you want to take the article to featured status, so if you say no I fully understand. "Most common shrine styles" and "Other styles" have been rechecked several times by me, so I doubt there's anything urgent in there. What are you up to? Can I help you with anything? Urashima Tarō ( talk) 03:59, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
I pasted in the first paragraph from the list and added references in the bibliography section. Is that what you meant? It probably needs to be adapted a bit (maybe shortened at the end) for the new article. Should not be a problem with the featured candidacy I hope. Just in case I copied the fellow's text below. Feel free to remove it. Recently I expanded the
National Treasures of Japan which I hope to get up to GA status. That's why I was not very active with Shinto topics. In order to see where I am with the article, I asked for a
peer review and
reassessment. Help with either would be great. Or just leave a couple of comments here if the peer review is too formal. I am mainly interested in suggestions on content (expansion, re-structuring of the article,...). The lead will eventually be rewritten, I am going to expand the statistics section at the end and will shuffle around pictures a bit. Other than that, the main part is final (up to suggestions).
bamse (
talk) 09:24, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
In the infancy of the Shinto religion, its concept of worship was concentrated around nature. Therefore, the architectural style of the Shinto sanctuaries was mostly found in or near areas, such as waterfalls, mountains, rock formations, and caves. At these locations, believers connect to the nature where the kami was located; and therefore, become one with the divine.
Moving away from primitive Shinto sanctuaries, the Shinto religions began to construct shrines that involved actual architect. All of the shrines were made with wood that was left unpainted. The walls and roof were thatched with poles supporting them. The Shinto shrines were very small. Since it was constructed to house the deities, it was a single dwelling house. Here, the followers would present the deities with food offerings.
As other religions, such as Buddhism, began to appear in Japan, it integrated with the Shinto religion. This has also affected the Shinto shrine architecture. The shrines were now built with cement as well as wood. The once bland, unpainted wood is now brightly colored. The roofs, which are made from Hinoki bark, curves outward. The thatched roofs were now accented with chigi and katsuogi timber. The chigi timber is on the ridges of the roof, and the katsuogi timber is short and lays perpendicular to the chigi timber. However, some of the elaborate details added to the Shinto shrines came from the aristocrats as well.
I also made several uncontroversial changes. As far as ideas for expansion are concerned, I am afraid I have none. The article, insofar as I can tell, is very complete. Åkebråke's comments were a little bit nitpicking, I think. The tables are fine. The article mostly needs the attention of someone who, unlike us, is a native English speaker to see that all is kosher.
Let me ask you something (at this point I think we trust each other enough). When I check your things, I tend to change as little as I can in terms of grammar and style out of fear to offend even when I am quite sure I should modify something, but I think this attitude is not really productive. Would you mind if I took a moderately more proactive stance? If you do mind, fine, I won't. I know the National Treasures of Japan article has been created, and is therefore technically no longer yours, but I have a personal relationship with you, so I prefer to ask for your permission. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 06:19, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Do you think that timelines like these could be useful for the statistics section? bamse ( talk) 17:14, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi, and sorry for not showing up yesterday. I have had a couple of busy months, and I took a day off.
You ask my opinion about your plan, but I don't really understand what it is. I am too unfamiliar with the subject. Could you be more specific?
I was also thinking about making independent articles about the various shrine styles, including in each info about tsumairi, hirairi, ken and other stuff that would always be the same. I could then shorten the section in Shinto shrine and the article Shinto architecture would be far less important. Shouldn't take more than a day. What do you think?
One last thing: I fixed an error in the last citation in [[National Treasures of Japan]. Check the fix, please, because I am not sure I did the right thing.
Urashima Tarō (
talk) 05:53, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Urashima Tarō (
talk) 05:49, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
I spent the morning re-checking the styles section of Shinto shrine, and did a robust job of typo fixing. (I must say I am not particularly proud of my work, in this case.) I then created nagare-zukuri, kasuga-zukuri, ishinoma-zukuri, hachiman-zukuri, hiyoshi-zukuri and irimoya-zukuri. Tomorrow will finish. BTW, thanks for your help. So far our partnership has turned out to be more useful to me than to you. I hope this will change in the future. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 04:28, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
I am happy to hear you think so. I discovered new material. It will take some time to finish the articles. Some ( nagare-zukuri, for example) are no longer stubs. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 06:43, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
I went through the national treasure shrine list and wikilinked the style articles. Do you think that kirizuma-zukuri, ryōsage-zukuri and yosemune-zukuri deserve their own article? bamse ( talk) 16:16, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Kirizuma is a gabled roof, so a link to gabled roof will be probably enough, but it may deserve a stub with a link to gabled roof. I will do that. The other styles? I don't think so, but there are plenty of other -zukuri to go around, so some kind of policy is necessary. What I will probably do is:
Later I plan to rewrite all articles for clarity. If I had known in the beginning what I know now, I would have written them differently.
Let me know if you agree or not with my plans, and if you have ideas or proposals. BTW, do you understand this? 一間隅木入春日造型
One more thing: I hadn't noticed the article irimoya. Perhaps I should merge the two, and change one into a redirect. What do you think? Urashima Tarō ( talk) 03:52, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Bamse. I will proceed with our plans. The template would be very useful. Can you create it? If so, please go ahead with it (if you have time).
The navbar is great, and I see it's easy to edit, so I can modify it myself if I need to. If you want, I can paste it in place myself tomorrow. Just two things, if I may:
Historic monuments of ancient Kyoto (Kyoto, Uji and Otsu cities).
Urashima Tarō ( talk) 12:50, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the template. Very good.I used and modified it today (just very minor changes).
About the expressions, you are of course right. If they are fixed expressions, they should be in capitals.
Much more work to be done on Shinto architecture, but it's already better than it was. Any suggestions for additions or changes?
Now for a while I won't write anything new, but clean up what is already there. I have already started cleaning up what I did, here and there. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 05:34, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Bamse. All those parts the unknown fellow wrote (from where your quotations come) will go in due course. I don't think there's much to salvage. About the section Origins, I for the time can put mine taken from Shinto Shrine, but yours from List of National Treasures of Japan (shrines) is far better. Would you mind pasting it in? I didn't do it because I know you want to take the article to featured status, so if you say no I fully understand. "Most common shrine styles" and "Other styles" have been rechecked several times by me, so I doubt there's anything urgent in there. What are you up to? Can I help you with anything? Urashima Tarō ( talk) 03:59, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
I pasted in the first paragraph from the list and added references in the bibliography section. Is that what you meant? It probably needs to be adapted a bit (maybe shortened at the end) for the new article. Should not be a problem with the featured candidacy I hope. Just in case I copied the fellow's text below. Feel free to remove it. Recently I expanded the
National Treasures of Japan which I hope to get up to GA status. That's why I was not very active with Shinto topics. In order to see where I am with the article, I asked for a
peer review and
reassessment. Help with either would be great. Or just leave a couple of comments here if the peer review is too formal. I am mainly interested in suggestions on content (expansion, re-structuring of the article,...). The lead will eventually be rewritten, I am going to expand the statistics section at the end and will shuffle around pictures a bit. Other than that, the main part is final (up to suggestions).
bamse (
talk) 09:24, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
In the infancy of the Shinto religion, its concept of worship was concentrated around nature. Therefore, the architectural style of the Shinto sanctuaries was mostly found in or near areas, such as waterfalls, mountains, rock formations, and caves. At these locations, believers connect to the nature where the kami was located; and therefore, become one with the divine.
Moving away from primitive Shinto sanctuaries, the Shinto religions began to construct shrines that involved actual architect. All of the shrines were made with wood that was left unpainted. The walls and roof were thatched with poles supporting them. The Shinto shrines were very small. Since it was constructed to house the deities, it was a single dwelling house. Here, the followers would present the deities with food offerings.
As other religions, such as Buddhism, began to appear in Japan, it integrated with the Shinto religion. This has also affected the Shinto shrine architecture. The shrines were now built with cement as well as wood. The once bland, unpainted wood is now brightly colored. The roofs, which are made from Hinoki bark, curves outward. The thatched roofs were now accented with chigi and katsuogi timber. The chigi timber is on the ridges of the roof, and the katsuogi timber is short and lays perpendicular to the chigi timber. However, some of the elaborate details added to the Shinto shrines came from the aristocrats as well.
I also made several uncontroversial changes. As far as ideas for expansion are concerned, I am afraid I have none. The article, insofar as I can tell, is very complete. Åkebråke's comments were a little bit nitpicking, I think. The tables are fine. The article mostly needs the attention of someone who, unlike us, is a native English speaker to see that all is kosher.
Let me ask you something (at this point I think we trust each other enough). When I check your things, I tend to change as little as I can in terms of grammar and style out of fear to offend even when I am quite sure I should modify something, but I think this attitude is not really productive. Would you mind if I took a moderately more proactive stance? If you do mind, fine, I won't. I know the National Treasures of Japan article has been created, and is therefore technically no longer yours, but I have a personal relationship with you, so I prefer to ask for your permission. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 06:19, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Do you think that timelines like these could be useful for the statistics section? bamse ( talk) 17:14, 17 December 2009 (UTC)