Hi Urashimataro! I just noticed User:Urashimataro/Hayashi Eitetsu and was wondering if you are planning to work on articles about Shinto architecture. Since I am collecting info here for the lead section of List of National Treasures of Japan (shrines) (and possibly for Shinto architecture as well), maybe we could join forces somehow. I am still learning, but got quite interested in the subject. bamse ( talk) 23:48, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Bamse. How an earth did you notice User:Urashimataro/Hayashi Eitetsu? I am indeed planning to write a section about architecture for the Shinto shrine article, which I (almost entirely) wrote and maintain, and rewrite the Shinto architecture article, which is pitiful now.
Having worked a bit with you in the past, I think collaborating would be a fine idea. Have you got any precise idea about what you want to do? I am going to start writing the articles next week. Feel free to steal, ask and add to my user pages. BTW, I have access to material in Japanese you may be interested about architecture and about the 12 Heavenly Warriors :-). I was planning to use it myself sometime. If need be, I can copy and send you material via email. By the way, I don't know much about Shinto, just what I learned writing these few articles. But I am also willing to learn. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 04:54, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Bamse. Just a few notes. More later, after I finish work. Checked both files, made minor changes and left some comments. leave me your feedback.
About sources in German: do you know this?
Bernhard is a world authority on Japan. I read German but, living in Japan, I don't use it at all, so my capability to speak it is limited.
The new material you have written is useful and interesting, and complements nicely what I was planning to write about the various tsukuri (what you have seen). I will probably steal it for my own use :-). I wonder in fact if what such a long intro is really necessary in an article about shrines that are National Treasuries. A much shorter one with links to Shinto shrine and other relevant articles would be more than enough. In other words, the material in my opinion is better placed as an intro to the article about Shinto architecture, before details of the various tsukuri.
About sizes in meters, I will see in my books and at the public library, next time I go. Usually everyone uses bays, and bays vary in length.
by what property shall I order the "Remarks" column? I think the content of the remarks column is too heterogeneous to allow any sensible ordering.
About the pictures, I can take them here in Kamakura, Yokohama and Tokyo if needed.
About the last few questions: I doubt if there is a firm date about nature worship: it is usually supposed to have already existed in the Yayoi period. Same for the second question. Almost certainly fences/gates around sacred spots are almost as old as nature worship. No precise dates can possibly be available.
I can't answer now the last two questions, I will read a book in Japanese I have about religious architecture in Japan and will let you know.
BTW, the perseverance and patience you show in your work are midboggling. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 04:57, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Because the bays of temples and shrines are visibly different even within the same building and a ken can have several different values anyway, any measurement you get is bound to be inexact. The ken, also, was meant as a measure of proportion as well as a measure of size. I think therefore using measurements in ken is fine.
As a word, I would use ken. Ma is an equivalent, but has many other meanings, including, inconveniently, room, interval and space.
About bay, I think that if the reader has to learn a new word, it might as well be the real thing, and not a made up replacement in a foreign language.
let's wait until there's an article. Then we can better see what's necessary and be more motivated. I use Photoshop mostly for photos, and my graphic skills are limited. I will take care of the "zukuri" part with schemes and maps, but you are better off asking someone who specializes in that kind of thing for the rest.
Both my dictionaries (the
Kōjien and the
Daijisen) give as a reading of those two characters haraedono.
Here is the Kōjien's entry.
はらえ‐どの【祓殿】ハラヘ
神社で、祓を行う殿舎。
Since it's universally recognized as the best Japanese dictionary around (and the Daijisen agrees with it), I would use haraedono. If you need the data of the dictionary for referencing, they are on my user page.
I don't know what that sentence means, so I am not in the position to judge if it is correct or not, but it sounds contradictory. You say the jinguji first appeared during the Edo period, but also during the heian period. that important point must e clarified.
Do not forget italics and macrons for Japanese terms. If you nominate the article for Featured status, someone will surely point out if they are missing.
Thanks for the help. I replied above. bamse ( talk) 10:33, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
According to the Kōjien and the Daijisen, a palace adorned with precious stones or, figuratively, simply a beautiful palace. ぎょく‐でん【玉殿】 玉で飾った宮殿。美しい宮殿。
Bamse, the term apparently also means fox and the sentence means "a fox (from the fact that foxes of an Inari Jinja carry a precious stone" (takara no tama. The two characters are similar but different). In this case the word is read, according to the Kōjien, tamadono. I am not sure this is what it means in our case. Let me chew on this for a while.
BTW, I strongly recommend you buy the Kōjien DVD at Amazon. Not only as a dictionary it's WAY better than Rikaichan and the WWWJDIC, it's also an excellent encyclopedia with a great reputation (and which I use all the time for Wikipedia work). It would be of great help to you.
It's also better than the Shogakukan, which is what Kotobank and Yahoo use. Yahoo also has a good encyclopedia. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 03:02, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
They are miniature shrines: see here, and therefore the term is read gyokuden.
Hi, Bamse. First of all let me say that, when I recommended the Kōjien, I was under the impression that you were using only Rikaichan, but now I know you are using Shogakukan's Daijisen at Kotobank.com.
My opinion is that, if you want to use only one dictionary and you work with traditional Japanese culture as we do, that dictionary should be the Kōjien. I have sometimes found a term in the Kōjien and not in the Daijisen, but the contrary never happened. It costs 7800 yen at Amazon and is worth the money. The Daijirin and Daijisen are available online together here (even though having your own copy on your hard disk is more convenient). If you bought it you would have all major Japanese dictionaries at your disposal.
The downside is that the Kōjien is harder to understand, wordy and even archaic in its definitions, probably because it's much older in origin. Take a look at the relevant articles. They are well written.
One last thing: have you read this? Urashima Tarō ( talk) 01:03, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
//////////////////////
Hi, Bamse. I thought it would be better to create a page for our correspondence and keep everything together.
Thanks for pointing out that problem. JAANUS and the Encyclopedia of Shinto do not agree on that, I hadn't noticed and had used only JAANUS. I will see what the Kōjien says, and decide. About helping, it's too early: I am still gathering the material I have. After I am finished, you will be welcome to intervene. You can of course intervene already as you see fit, but the material still isn't in its final form.
The haiden article is useful, even as a stub. We should add more stubs of important shrine parts like sessha and massha.
For the time being, I have written a heiden (Shinto) stub. Linking it to existent articles was a pain. As a German, you know how common the name Heiden is. Among hundreds of links, just a handful concerned Shinto. BTW, do you actually live in Germany? Urashima Tarō ( talk) 00:10, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
Here comes the Kojien: 神社本殿の一形式。切妻造・平入の社殿を二つ前後に並べ、つないだもの。宇佐八幡宮本殿の形式。 A shrine structure with two interconnected shaden, one tsumairi style (door on the gable side) and one hirairi style (the opposite). The style used at Usa Shrine for the honden.
Too bad there are no photos, but I can copy an illustration from the Kōjien. I want to do a good job with this, something truly useful. I can't write today, but will tomorrow. Keep checking what I do. BTW, which are the articles you would like to have proofread? I am not a native speaker, but I can do something, little by little.
What do you think of this image? Is it good enough? I just traced an image with Illustrator. Unfortunately, I made a serious mistake which I immediately corrected, but now both previews show the error, and not the corrected version. I hope the problem will be fixed by the server. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 03:50, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Only if you have time and interest... I completed the draft for List of National Treasures of Japan (residences). Would be great if you could have a quick look at it and let me know of any mistakes I made. BTW, do you happen to know why the Katsura Imperial Villa is not a national treasure? Is it because it is part of the imperial household? I suppose the Ise Shrine is not a NT since it is being rebuilt, but the villa is reasonably old, isn't it? bamse ( talk) 18:07, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
______
About the checking, will do, but I will need some time.
The file has been drastically changed during the tracing. It's isn't recognizable as the same thing. I wouldn't have uploaded it otherwise. The original was almost identical to the drawing the Encyclopedia of Shinto has. Will modify as suggested.
About the Katsura, I know next to nothing about it. It probably burned down and was rebuilt, so it isn't an original. That's why Kamakura has no NT but one. I worked on the Architecture article. Hope to finish in a day or two. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 07:46, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
I had the image deleted. Better be safe than sorry, but now I have no photo to rely upon, and no image to trace of something which is hard to visualize and to draw freehand. What do you think? Urashima Tarō ( talk) 23:22, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
I think I may have something that will do the job. Drastically simplified, B/W picture, as you suggested. Would it be possible I show it to you sending it via email? I'd like to have your feedback. If this works, we can use again the technique in the future. You can reach me via email through my user page. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 04:26, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Bamse. I checked both files and corrected minor points. Didn't find any serious mistake, but I am not an expert in this kind of thing. I also hesitate to change style points, because I am not a native. In any case, if you want I will check again later, when you will have written more. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 08:09, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
______
Well done. That's something I wanted to do myself, one day. I will see if I can make an illustration for both (but I will be busy until Thursday, and I won't have much free time). There are no photos for moya and mokoshi (but I can go and take one soon at a Zen temple). BTW, you have plenty of material for the article Shoin, which is presently miserable. I was also thinking we could create a category for this stuff, perhaps Japanese religious architecture as a subcategory of Japanese art. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 00:50, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
裳階【もこし】 仏堂や塔などの軒下壁面から延びた差し掛け。裳階があると外観が二重屋根となり際だつが,内部は柱が上まで通り,二階構造ではない。
It confirms what you say.
OK. Take care, and TTU soon. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 23:03, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Bamse. I more or less finished Mokoshi and wouldn't mind if you checked it when you have time. Also, if you notice some omission, please add to it. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 00:31, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Also had a look at User:Urashimataro/Hayashi Eitetsu. Some suggestions:
bamse ( talk) 12:22, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
One more thing I am not very sure of is if Ishi-no-ma-zukuri (gongen-zukuri) really fit into this list or should be treated separately. bamse ( talk) 12:55, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Bamse, and thanks for the checks. I hadn't asked you to check Hayashi Eitetsu because the article isn't finished. I am now going to add the info I find in other sources.
( talk) 23:05, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi Urashimataro! I just noticed User:Urashimataro/Hayashi Eitetsu and was wondering if you are planning to work on articles about Shinto architecture. Since I am collecting info here for the lead section of List of National Treasures of Japan (shrines) (and possibly for Shinto architecture as well), maybe we could join forces somehow. I am still learning, but got quite interested in the subject. bamse ( talk) 23:48, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Bamse. How an earth did you notice User:Urashimataro/Hayashi Eitetsu? I am indeed planning to write a section about architecture for the Shinto shrine article, which I (almost entirely) wrote and maintain, and rewrite the Shinto architecture article, which is pitiful now.
Having worked a bit with you in the past, I think collaborating would be a fine idea. Have you got any precise idea about what you want to do? I am going to start writing the articles next week. Feel free to steal, ask and add to my user pages. BTW, I have access to material in Japanese you may be interested about architecture and about the 12 Heavenly Warriors :-). I was planning to use it myself sometime. If need be, I can copy and send you material via email. By the way, I don't know much about Shinto, just what I learned writing these few articles. But I am also willing to learn. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 04:54, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Bamse. Just a few notes. More later, after I finish work. Checked both files, made minor changes and left some comments. leave me your feedback.
About sources in German: do you know this?
Bernhard is a world authority on Japan. I read German but, living in Japan, I don't use it at all, so my capability to speak it is limited.
The new material you have written is useful and interesting, and complements nicely what I was planning to write about the various tsukuri (what you have seen). I will probably steal it for my own use :-). I wonder in fact if what such a long intro is really necessary in an article about shrines that are National Treasuries. A much shorter one with links to Shinto shrine and other relevant articles would be more than enough. In other words, the material in my opinion is better placed as an intro to the article about Shinto architecture, before details of the various tsukuri.
About sizes in meters, I will see in my books and at the public library, next time I go. Usually everyone uses bays, and bays vary in length.
by what property shall I order the "Remarks" column? I think the content of the remarks column is too heterogeneous to allow any sensible ordering.
About the pictures, I can take them here in Kamakura, Yokohama and Tokyo if needed.
About the last few questions: I doubt if there is a firm date about nature worship: it is usually supposed to have already existed in the Yayoi period. Same for the second question. Almost certainly fences/gates around sacred spots are almost as old as nature worship. No precise dates can possibly be available.
I can't answer now the last two questions, I will read a book in Japanese I have about religious architecture in Japan and will let you know.
BTW, the perseverance and patience you show in your work are midboggling. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 04:57, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Because the bays of temples and shrines are visibly different even within the same building and a ken can have several different values anyway, any measurement you get is bound to be inexact. The ken, also, was meant as a measure of proportion as well as a measure of size. I think therefore using measurements in ken is fine.
As a word, I would use ken. Ma is an equivalent, but has many other meanings, including, inconveniently, room, interval and space.
About bay, I think that if the reader has to learn a new word, it might as well be the real thing, and not a made up replacement in a foreign language.
let's wait until there's an article. Then we can better see what's necessary and be more motivated. I use Photoshop mostly for photos, and my graphic skills are limited. I will take care of the "zukuri" part with schemes and maps, but you are better off asking someone who specializes in that kind of thing for the rest.
Both my dictionaries (the
Kōjien and the
Daijisen) give as a reading of those two characters haraedono.
Here is the Kōjien's entry.
はらえ‐どの【祓殿】ハラヘ
神社で、祓を行う殿舎。
Since it's universally recognized as the best Japanese dictionary around (and the Daijisen agrees with it), I would use haraedono. If you need the data of the dictionary for referencing, they are on my user page.
I don't know what that sentence means, so I am not in the position to judge if it is correct or not, but it sounds contradictory. You say the jinguji first appeared during the Edo period, but also during the heian period. that important point must e clarified.
Do not forget italics and macrons for Japanese terms. If you nominate the article for Featured status, someone will surely point out if they are missing.
Thanks for the help. I replied above. bamse ( talk) 10:33, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
According to the Kōjien and the Daijisen, a palace adorned with precious stones or, figuratively, simply a beautiful palace. ぎょく‐でん【玉殿】 玉で飾った宮殿。美しい宮殿。
Bamse, the term apparently also means fox and the sentence means "a fox (from the fact that foxes of an Inari Jinja carry a precious stone" (takara no tama. The two characters are similar but different). In this case the word is read, according to the Kōjien, tamadono. I am not sure this is what it means in our case. Let me chew on this for a while.
BTW, I strongly recommend you buy the Kōjien DVD at Amazon. Not only as a dictionary it's WAY better than Rikaichan and the WWWJDIC, it's also an excellent encyclopedia with a great reputation (and which I use all the time for Wikipedia work). It would be of great help to you.
It's also better than the Shogakukan, which is what Kotobank and Yahoo use. Yahoo also has a good encyclopedia. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 03:02, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
They are miniature shrines: see here, and therefore the term is read gyokuden.
Hi, Bamse. First of all let me say that, when I recommended the Kōjien, I was under the impression that you were using only Rikaichan, but now I know you are using Shogakukan's Daijisen at Kotobank.com.
My opinion is that, if you want to use only one dictionary and you work with traditional Japanese culture as we do, that dictionary should be the Kōjien. I have sometimes found a term in the Kōjien and not in the Daijisen, but the contrary never happened. It costs 7800 yen at Amazon and is worth the money. The Daijirin and Daijisen are available online together here (even though having your own copy on your hard disk is more convenient). If you bought it you would have all major Japanese dictionaries at your disposal.
The downside is that the Kōjien is harder to understand, wordy and even archaic in its definitions, probably because it's much older in origin. Take a look at the relevant articles. They are well written.
One last thing: have you read this? Urashima Tarō ( talk) 01:03, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
//////////////////////
Hi, Bamse. I thought it would be better to create a page for our correspondence and keep everything together.
Thanks for pointing out that problem. JAANUS and the Encyclopedia of Shinto do not agree on that, I hadn't noticed and had used only JAANUS. I will see what the Kōjien says, and decide. About helping, it's too early: I am still gathering the material I have. After I am finished, you will be welcome to intervene. You can of course intervene already as you see fit, but the material still isn't in its final form.
The haiden article is useful, even as a stub. We should add more stubs of important shrine parts like sessha and massha.
For the time being, I have written a heiden (Shinto) stub. Linking it to existent articles was a pain. As a German, you know how common the name Heiden is. Among hundreds of links, just a handful concerned Shinto. BTW, do you actually live in Germany? Urashima Tarō ( talk) 00:10, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
Here comes the Kojien: 神社本殿の一形式。切妻造・平入の社殿を二つ前後に並べ、つないだもの。宇佐八幡宮本殿の形式。 A shrine structure with two interconnected shaden, one tsumairi style (door on the gable side) and one hirairi style (the opposite). The style used at Usa Shrine for the honden.
Too bad there are no photos, but I can copy an illustration from the Kōjien. I want to do a good job with this, something truly useful. I can't write today, but will tomorrow. Keep checking what I do. BTW, which are the articles you would like to have proofread? I am not a native speaker, but I can do something, little by little.
What do you think of this image? Is it good enough? I just traced an image with Illustrator. Unfortunately, I made a serious mistake which I immediately corrected, but now both previews show the error, and not the corrected version. I hope the problem will be fixed by the server. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 03:50, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Only if you have time and interest... I completed the draft for List of National Treasures of Japan (residences). Would be great if you could have a quick look at it and let me know of any mistakes I made. BTW, do you happen to know why the Katsura Imperial Villa is not a national treasure? Is it because it is part of the imperial household? I suppose the Ise Shrine is not a NT since it is being rebuilt, but the villa is reasonably old, isn't it? bamse ( talk) 18:07, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
______
About the checking, will do, but I will need some time.
The file has been drastically changed during the tracing. It's isn't recognizable as the same thing. I wouldn't have uploaded it otherwise. The original was almost identical to the drawing the Encyclopedia of Shinto has. Will modify as suggested.
About the Katsura, I know next to nothing about it. It probably burned down and was rebuilt, so it isn't an original. That's why Kamakura has no NT but one. I worked on the Architecture article. Hope to finish in a day or two. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 07:46, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
I had the image deleted. Better be safe than sorry, but now I have no photo to rely upon, and no image to trace of something which is hard to visualize and to draw freehand. What do you think? Urashima Tarō ( talk) 23:22, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
I think I may have something that will do the job. Drastically simplified, B/W picture, as you suggested. Would it be possible I show it to you sending it via email? I'd like to have your feedback. If this works, we can use again the technique in the future. You can reach me via email through my user page. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 04:26, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Bamse. I checked both files and corrected minor points. Didn't find any serious mistake, but I am not an expert in this kind of thing. I also hesitate to change style points, because I am not a native. In any case, if you want I will check again later, when you will have written more. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 08:09, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
______
Well done. That's something I wanted to do myself, one day. I will see if I can make an illustration for both (but I will be busy until Thursday, and I won't have much free time). There are no photos for moya and mokoshi (but I can go and take one soon at a Zen temple). BTW, you have plenty of material for the article Shoin, which is presently miserable. I was also thinking we could create a category for this stuff, perhaps Japanese religious architecture as a subcategory of Japanese art. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 00:50, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
裳階【もこし】 仏堂や塔などの軒下壁面から延びた差し掛け。裳階があると外観が二重屋根となり際だつが,内部は柱が上まで通り,二階構造ではない。
It confirms what you say.
OK. Take care, and TTU soon. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 23:03, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Bamse. I more or less finished Mokoshi and wouldn't mind if you checked it when you have time. Also, if you notice some omission, please add to it. Urashima Tarō ( talk) 00:31, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Also had a look at User:Urashimataro/Hayashi Eitetsu. Some suggestions:
bamse ( talk) 12:22, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
One more thing I am not very sure of is if Ishi-no-ma-zukuri (gongen-zukuri) really fit into this list or should be treated separately. bamse ( talk) 12:55, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Bamse, and thanks for the checks. I hadn't asked you to check Hayashi Eitetsu because the article isn't finished. I am now going to add the info I find in other sources.
( talk) 23:05, 27 November 2009 (UTC)