Dont you think it is equally bad that Muslims are rioting and destroying property over this. Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance. these acts of violence are equally reprehensible to Islam as the cartoons. REALIZE WHAT YOU ARE DOING. the world is watching act like muslims, not like undisciplined individuals.
-- 130.108.185.198 03:40, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Hypatia! the light in the world is diminshing again.
Does GOD create hatered. A simple but a big YES...a small cartoon of a man who walked on this earth a few centuries ago is enough to create ripples of hatered in the minds of people who follow the man. What kind of religion is this? Is it so weak that an unknown cartoonist can shake it...and that too so violently, that it created inside men the very things that all religion teaches us not to follow...hatered, violence, crime....you name it...but then something must be wrong. If one wants to get respect from others then he/she should also respect others. Do they follow it? cow is considered to be a sacared animal and millions of hindus worship it as GOD, but every year millions of this bovine species are killed and eaten, specially during ID, a very auspicious islamic festival. Are they not showing disrespect to the hindus when they first butcher their GOD and then eat it? May be if you ask them they will say that they don't consider the cow to be god and hence eat it...but then the dannish cartoonist also thought that Mohammed was just like any other man and since we create cartoons of world leaders,sportsperson, entertainers, scientists...etc why not that of a religius leader...and he created the cartoon.People all over the world do not show disrespect to hindus when they eat beef, because it is their food. Same way creativity and freedom of expression, are mental food for people who think they live in a civilized society and have got every right to express their views. They cannot turn themself into human bombs or fight against people with different views by violent means because their conscience doesn't allow them, but still think they should put their points across, hence they take the help of cartoons for example to express their viewpoints. If they dont' they will be living the life of a zombie...so to live they have to express....just like to live one has to eat. Hence the westerern world should not say sorry to anyone, if they say it...they will be nailing thier own coffins. If this world has to survive and not fall into another dark age then reason must prevail. (jediath@gmail.com)
Arguments on the underlying issues ( Islam, free speech, blasphemy, etc.) go here. Crotalus horridus ( TALK • CONTRIBS) 00:02, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks to Wikipedia for providing a venue for the discussion of these ideas.
I am a professed born again whitey that take offense at this whole escapade I believe dearly in the value of a free press and belive just as strongly that one should have the riht to practice ones religion but for these halfwitted journalist t stand up and pretend that by offended 25% of the popuation of the world they have in some way or other sruck a blow for free speech firstly as the cliche goes free speech is not free and it is certainly not been purchased from some broken crayon in a second rate comic daily in... if people took the time and trouble to invoke every right at our disposal nothing would ever get acomplished. the people that instigated this crap should be ashamed of themselves they're obviously people that have too much time and ink on their hands and now the blood of innocent that have been caught in the cross fire.
Why is this issue being ignored in this topic? Racism against whites deserves to be acknowledged every bit as racism against non-whites. Merton 04:03 4 February 2006 (UTC)
It not racism, its the prejudice toward religion. You can say the Muslim held prejudice toward Christianity (and vice versa), but you can't say all Muslim hate Nordic Europeans, becuase is Muslim is a cross-race religion, and welcome any race. 142.161.115.85 21:36, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the section should be revived. European do not adhere to freedom of speech seen in America so accusation of hypocracy is at least a valid topic of discussion. Secondly, given the section of "Islam and blasphamy", counter example of other religion or culture or political ideology is not only relevant but also fair to muslim. FWBOarticle
Freedom of speech seen in America?!
Sorry, but what are you talking about? Just yesterday the
Superbowl finals were said to be censored in real-time, by e.g. cutting out certain parts of the
Rolling Stones' songs. Or they did not even allow certain ones to be performed. All cause they were afraid of another
Nipplegate like the one caused by
Janet Jackson.
OK, I would not call it speech in her case. (rather expression, and such nudity is not permitted by
Islam either in many cases, especially for Women)
However cutting songs live while performed, or speeches just so nobody ever accidentially pops out the "f*" word, or (as we all heard) even censoring and faking large number or articles HERE is not, what I'd call freedom of speech...
--
Richard 01:39, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Article 10, Freedom of expression
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.
2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.
Ironically, the boycott of ALL Danish goods would hurt everyone, regardless of whether or not they wanted the cartoons published. Accountable Government 07:15, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I see huge news coverages & well....this article too, & all the hue & cry about the freedom of speech. What I don’t see is the fact that these cartoons are not just insulting, they incite hate & phobia against Islam. It’s not about what Islam teaches or what it doesn’t teach; it’s about the so called treasured values of Europe. Why a person making jokes against blacks is called racist, a person making jokes against Jews is called anti-Semite, but when the same thing happens against Islam, everybody remembers Freedom of speech. Why isn’t the same freedom of speech practiced when dealing with blacks, whites, Jews, Christian’s e.t.c. Why is kike or nigger considered racist but depicting Muhammad with a bomb in his turban or “Prophet! daft and dumb, keeping woman under thumb” is called "Freedom of speech”. I am ashamed to see this hypocrisy practiced by people who consider themselves to be the "civilized world”. Does civilization teach us to have dual standards? I am very sorry to see that Europe is again being taught to hate. This time inside the shiny wrapping of "Freedom of expression” by the media. First it was the witch-hunt, then we had the holocaust, I hope we don’t get a third session of global bloodshed, since before the holocaust; Jews were being depicted in the same manner by the Nazis. Cant we have a single section on this article about the kind of sick racism that this cartoon is promoting, other that the good old "they don’t understand our values of freedom" rant, there are tons of Muslim sources saying that these cartoons can be equated with stuff that are considered Anti-Semite. F.a.y. تبادله خيال /c 09:57, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Islamophobia is a correct term although irrelevant. I know this because I'm also personally feeling this phobia. However, Islamophobes arent burning down foreign embassies and threatening people. In the UK, the protestors have gotten away with what would put anyone else in jail--calling for beheading and other forms of violence and death.The opening paragraph of this particular comment assumes that there is something wrong with growing fear when in fact, hundreds of thousands of people in the region are destroying property and hunting people are creating a good basis for that fear. 134.132.167.123 21:34, 5 February 2006 (UTC)TBAS
-- User:dtii I cant wait for their reaction when South Park does there Muhammad episode!!!
Not too likely, after freedom of speech has already been cut on them, when they did the "Bloody Mary" episode!!! (not seen it, but it was reported to be about a statue of Mother Mary bleeding where most women do regularly...) -- Richard 15:35, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I believe the epidode you are refering to Richard was incorrectly refrenced:
Stan is embarrassed in front of his friends when his dad gets pulled over for drunk driving. In a neighboring town, a statue of the Virgin Mary begins to bleed -- out of her ass -- and people begin to flock around it to find a cure for their diseases. Stan's dad is sure the bleeding Virgin can cure him of his "disease." etc. File:Http://www.southparkstudios.com/img/content/season9/914.gif
Wikipedia Bloody Mary South Park Episode -- Pyoungberg 20:04, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Well thanks Pyoungberg, I did not mean to reference it, but as there is quite a detailed article (including all the medical/religious findings ;-) good you pointed it out. -- Richard 01:29, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Strange enough, the same companies behind that as stated in the article also are involved in other censorships caused by the Nippelgate affair of Janet Jackson on TV - Viacom
When they make that episode, they'd better not put any "unwanted" material in it. The quintuplets one was peppered with negative references to Romania. {{Template:NazismIsntCool/sig}} 12:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC) PS: If any newspapers in Romania publish those cartoons, I will not buy Danish products again. --- "PS: If any newspapers in Romania publish those cartoons, I will not buy Danish products again." did you mean "will not buy Romanian products again." ?
---
did you mean "will not buy Romanian products again." ?
Your poll is a complete farce! Someone just copied & pasted the signatures from the first poll into the second poll. In any case, Wikipedia is no democracy but there are rules. Such as WP:DBAD. For this reason I'll move the picture Rajab 16:04, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, I hope, you do not also assume that e.g. because the
Troll is also mostly a character initially
Scandinavia...?;-)
--
Richard 01:47, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Let's not make this a bigger "drama" than it already is shall we?Please learn to put things into context.wikipedia doesn't believe in censcoring.The image is there to illustrate the situation and to be complete.
Your example of a porno picture of a relative isn't comparable,the porno shot is not notable,this picture IS notable,it's what the whole uproar is about.If there wasn't an uproar this picture would never have gotten the attention outside denmark than it is now has.-- Technosphere83 16:14, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
"your side",I'm on no "side".Maybe I'm so out of the loop,but if I were a muslim I would like to see for myself what this whole fuss was about.Secondly there is already a general warning on wikipedia that it may contain content that may be offensive.And lasly wikipedia isn't making a "statement" it only tries to describe.-- Technosphere83 16:20, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Rajab - How do you define "your side" anyway? Sounds like a persecution complex (us vs. them)... 207.237.21.117 16:25, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Incidentall, no one wrongly cut-and-pasted votes as per Rajab's accusation. When the poll was refactored, all votes--keep and delete and link--were moved to the three-column form. No votes were lost, none were added. Babajobu 19:36, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I would like to have that picture removed too, but because im not a user in here and dont understand how to eidt it, i cant vote >.<! 142.161.115.85 20:51, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, so now we're watching embassies being burned to the ground (including offices for countries not even involved in this 'dispute'). Does true Islam support this behaviour, or is this the behaviour of fundamentalists? Budgiekiller 21:53, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I have an important question considering this matter. We are talking wheter these cartoons are an insult against the muslim god. but the person which is portrayed is mohammad and not allah. So if I may ask: is Mohammad seen as an prohet but an human or is he seen as a god by the muslims? If we consider that Mohammad was also an historic person we could approach this problem fron this angle. Historic person have alwasy been portrayed in cartoons, anno one is portaying the muslim god, which is allah?
More than 100 people have died because of riots against the cartoons. The thing is, they are only cartoons, they may be offensive, but seriously they are only cartoons. And people say videogames cause violence...
People always have predjudices towards others.One reason is that people are ignorant.And I believe that the most part of Non-Muslims do not really know the person Muhammad (s.a.s=peace upon with him).I am a Muslim against terror and violence.Allah (s.w.t) says in the Holy Quran Surah 16:90 (translation of the meaning) (and after saying "bismillahirahmanirahim=In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, Most Merciful"):"Allah commands justice, the doing of good, and liberality to kith and kin, and He forbids all shameful deeds, and injustice and rebellion: He instructs you, that ye may receive admonition." Here is a website in many languages describing our Prophet Muhammad (s.a.s): http://www.islamway.com/mohammad
Quiet to the contrary , I do agree with you and the need to protect freedom of speech not just in Denmark but also in the rest of the world .JP have the legal and the moral right under Danish Law to publish 'journalistic events' in all forms without exception.
In my views JP should not have published an apology nor the government of Denmark should apologize on behalf the newspaper .
In the same token, People of Denmark should not be offended when their products are boycotted.Readers have a fundamental principal to exercises their rights as they wish . Consumers have the right to buy whatever they choose .
From a philosophical point of view , this is a new form of conflict with two parties . One armed with Democracy taboos and the other party is armed with Internet chat, text messaging and SMS and collective purchasing power. This is a complete new form of conflicts and it seems like we are rewriting new chapter of history
So far in this conflict there are no winners .Everyone is hurt .Both People and businesses are hurt .
(the opinions expressed below are not my personal ones, they are merely examples, sorry in advance if they offend anyone)
Many readers who seem for deleting the article keep bringing up repeatedly the point that supposedly Western civilization does not allow people to speak ill of the Holocaust or say racists remarks. I would like to clarify this once and for all.
1) You are allowed to say anything you want in most nations with free speech. As someone pointed out earlier, you can deny the holocaust, you can call black people "niggers", you can call chinese people "chinks", you can call koreans "gooks", I can march up and down the street with a sign that says all "Jews should die because all they do is take money" and NOT get fined or arrested as long as I am being peaceful. The few nations that do not allow speaking ill of the holocaust are the exception rather than the rule. So stop saying "you cannot say this in your nation..." or "this is hippocratic!". Such reasoning is false and entirely wrong. It based on false assumptions and no actaul understanding of the laws of free speech.
2) Wikipedia is not made up of Jews, Muslims or Christians. There are people from OTHER parts of the world as well. Or did people start to forget that there are 1 billion Chinese or 1 billion Indians and not to mention the rest of East Asia. I'm getting very very annoyed at people who think this place is only filled with Europeans and keep voicing that there is a European bias. The world is not Europe, US and the Middle East. The "other" people have opinions too. Hitokirishinji 20:36, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
...... Uhlan....... Am new There is an element of truth in the cartoons. All the actions of the Prophet were never above scrutiny. He did order an assasination of a poetess. He did permit mqassacare of Jews after a battkle. He did make his son divorce and then marry his daughter in law. He somehow made God send edicts to facilitate the divorce and the marriage and numerous marriages were permitted only to him by Gods edict> he married an underage girl of about 8 years and consumnated the marriage. The Koran does promise Virgins to martyrs exhorts Believers to kill other religionists, The Muslims have off course a right not to have their object of faith to be critisised . But this is an article and cartton in a Danish paper, not a paid advt in an Arab paper. Any average Mullah spits more venom against Christians Jews europeans and Idol worshippers than trhe cartoon above. The Muslims have to see both sides of in temperate behaviour. Anyway no o0ne nothing is going to remain a holy cow in the years to come and Muslims have to grow up
More than a decade back when I read Samuel P. Huntington's article about " Clash of Civilizations" then I was really surprised about his theory. The question for me was to ponder as to why would Islam and Christianity fight? I couldn't comprehend the scenario which was to unfold later on. I am a Muslim and have great respect and affection for Lord Jesus Christ (which we fondly call as Yaso Maseeh or Hazrat Essa) and I believe this is the case with every other Muslim. Any provocative remarks about Hazrat Essa or Jesus Christ are as disturbing to a Muslim as they could be to a Christian. So why would a bunch of people (in the name of freedom for expression) try to play with the emotions of more than a Billion Muslims of the world. If something is considered categorically disturbing to this huge bunch of people then Wikipedia should recognize this fact as well. I don’t say that the article should be removed but as a Wikiholic I can see that the reproduction of these offensive pictures will do no good to the reputation of our favorite Wikipedia. It will just hasten up the unnecessary hate war between Muslims and Christians. My request to you Jimbo, will be to provide a link to these pictures as they are easily available on other controversial pages and try not to contribute in this Clash of Civilizations. The world is a global village now and whether we (as Christians, Muslims, and Jews) like it or not but we cannot compartmentalize ourselves. So that now we have to live together then we have to respect the religious values of each other. ( Nigar 14:23, 4 February 2006 (UTC))
Here are the archives: one | two | three | four | five | six
I think most of you guys don't know what the prophet Mohammed means to Muslims is and how they treat their religion in a holly way probably more than others. You just have to know how Muslims think so you know why they feel that way about cartoons that you might think it's a tiny silly thing. Prophet Mohammed considered as the simple of Islam, I mean the real Islam not Osama Bin Ladin's, They probably doesn't care if a leader of their country was attacked or was humiliated the way the prophet was in the cartoons, It's not about Freedom of speech but it's about stabbing their religion and believes, I do know some Muslims that doesn't mind to pose nude for Newsweek cover; but they for sure doesn't accept those cartoons. Some people were talking about the Arabic version of the article, I want to let them know that it's very similar to the English one except they didn't publish the offensive cartoons; instead they described each one of the 12 cartoons. Radiant 00:37, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The cartoons are giving a wrong stereo type of Muslims plus the freedom of speech rights is not an excuse to humiliate what others believes. Radiant 06:50, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
This encyclopedia, as neutral as it may aim to be, is still, a western country encyclopedia and is not going to censor anything because of some group of people considering it offensive. -- 84.249.252.211 13:55, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Gud bevare freespeech
Wow. Someone draws a cartoon offensive to Muslims and how does the Muslim world respond? Some with peaceful protests, some with violence.
I am a gay man. Many muslim countries (including Saudi Arabia, home of Islam's holiest places) have laws on their books prescribing exactly how I would be executed if I ever decided to visit one of these countries. That's a little more offensive than a cartoon. But are gay men buring down Saudi Arabian embassies? No.
Sir, the reason gays don't burn down embassies is because most embassies are beautifully decorated with satin and greek pillars and most people in there are well-dressed. Don't ever think is it because gays are "good" people!!! Huramath 03:33, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
And you would dare to call us perverted, when you respond to insults with violence? Because love is perverted, but hate is pure? Is that what's really sacred to you? Hatred?
It was distasteful to publish that cartoon. But the violent ones, the ones calling for blood, are even more disasteful. And the fact that Western governments are actually intimidated by the bloodthirsty is even more disasteful. In my eyes, everyone has acted inappropriately. The only ones who have been at all reasonable about this are the Muslims like al-Sistani and the Jordanians, who have stated that violence is unacceptable as a response.
By the way, if you think being negatively caricatured in the papers is offensive, walk a mile in my shoes. I get hit in the face with insults all day every day, just because of who I'm attracted to. I have no patience for people who are so thin skinned and weak that they cannot endure a little criticism. One cartoon. ONE cartoon. Not even two cartoons. Just one page of line drawings, paper and charcoal. That's what you're upset over? I'm upset because according to Sharia, you're supposed to collapse a brick wall over me so the bricks will crush me to death. What the hell right do you have to complain about one crappy cartoon? Wandering Star
I personally know alot of gays in some Islamic countries including Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, Egypt and many others. Radiant 07:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, and how many of them are living in fear for their lives? Wandering Star
The article is not about homosexuality. There was this teenager who told his parents he was gay, so they sent him to this fundamentalist refuge, and he's still there being forced to believe that homosexuality is a mental disorder. I'm a vegetarian, but I haven't been put in a fundamentalist refuge to be force-fed animal products every hour of the day. {{Template:NazismIsntCool/sig}} 12:52, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
There are double standards at work in this controversy. Why should it be illegal for me to use racial slurs in Denmark but not portray cartoons of Islam as a violent religion? If these cartoons had been originally published in the US, there would have been no perception of a double standard because, quite frankly, people are allowed to say or print whatever they want to the extent that it is not intended to incite imminant lawless action. But there are only two fair options. Either eliminate all potentially offensive speech and ideas from public discourse and force everyone to live silent lives or protect nobody from the danger of ideas that are merely offensive, hateful, or insulting. I favor the latter. --
Einhverfr 00:59, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Here in the US, we rely on the Court of Public Opinion alot. That is to say, it's not illegal for you to make an ass out of yourself. But it's not illegal for the rest of us to stand up and call you an ass, either. You could, as you suggest, use racist slurs here. But if you do, I'm well within my rights to tell you to shut the fuck up. You won't go to jail for it, and I'm not forced to like you or help you or do anything for you either. BTW, what do these cartoons have to do with racism? Islam is a faith practiced by people of different racial backgrounds, so to slam it is not to slam a particular race. That's like calling a person who is anti-christian a racist. Wandering Star
Danes will not apologize for insulting a few terrorists, and muslims will not accept that the 12 cartoons where only an intended as an insult to terrorists. DanielDemaret 23:24, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Muslims are fully intitled to their religious belief, but other people are also entitled to diferent beliefs, some worship the devil, some think might even think Muhammad was the devil. If some think he was a saint others are just entitled to think that he was not. Still I don't think it's apropriate to say danes insulted a few terrorists, just because a person might be very religious and muslim doesen't make him a terrorist, same way, over the past years catholics have felt insulted by cartoons, and they are not called terrorists.
Can we find place for the story that an Imam living in Denmark told an arab news channel that the danes would burn the Koran in Copenhagen Saturday. Noone eventually did, but the rumours seem to have been spread all over Middle East. Rasmus (danish Not User) 02:49 February 6th (UTC)
The Western idea of Freedom of Speech evolved over hundreds of years. If piss Christ came out in colonial America, the artist would have swung from a tree. Now in the United States people can protest the funerals of its fallen soldiers without government interaction. Try that in the Middle East. Basically the West has grown calluses to people’s opinions. For the most part peaceful protest has replaced violent reaction.
The internet and mass media have kicked in the front door of the Muslim homes and delivered the Western idea of Free Speech into their homes. This has been an insensitive shock to the Islamic Identity. The reactions to these cartoons, although extreme, could have been predicted. Westerners see this reaction as a weak position. Strong ideal beat weak ideals. Violence beats strong ideals, or at least tries. I see it has a culture that has not (or possibly will not) adapted.
This is a culture shock pure and simple. I understand that Muslims are offended. People DO deny the holocaust everyday. People DO use racist speech everyday. They are wrong, but have the right to do it. The reaction to these situations is more words.-- Thunder 05:17, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry to speak here in English on Wikipedia (how do you pronounce this in arabic?). I'm French and i don't understand the needless radicalism of some people i saw on TV.
France-soir is a very bad paper ! This paper is really worst, they search money and celebrity with idiot provocation... I didn't forget that they were near the bankruptcy two months ago !
France-soir is a paper writed by bastards for bastards, but this DOESNT'T MEAN that French people are bastards too !
So, if someone can tell me - if possible in English, i don't understand arabic (yet - i hope) - what is is sense of these French flags' conflagrations (i have never seen this in my life!) ?
(Systran automatic translator) ... French Lady
Sorry Lady ... I think this Issue has too many sides and sticking to one or two factors is hard to explain it , firstly i wanna assert that every muslim felt insulted and attacked by these pics which are obviously racist and islamophobic . the problem in the pictures are two-sided : firstly they depicts the person of Person Muhammad (PBUH ) which is forbidden in islam to avoid Idolatory and making persons holy by depicting then giving them a holy nature , so it is opposite to what some europeans say , muhammad isn,t God of muslims and he is not with holy nature , he is totally human but preferred by god and so he was chosen as Prophet .
for this reason islam try to limit the depiction of any living thing which is called as aniconism , but still some shiite parties have another understanding and they depict muhammad rarely and commonly Ali .
so the major factor was the insulting nature of the pics for the muslims which all moderate and extremists felt angry and upset >
apart from that feeling of anger , the Expression of anger as street protests hasn,t happened untill the noewegian journal re-publish teh pics again and many trials to take condemnations of the danish journal has failed and the danish goverment declared that it has no right to limit freedom of speech , some muslims say that contradicting with some events happened in Europe when some ppl is charged because anti-semitism or anti-racism .
the Protests happen anyway with approvment from arabic goverments and islamic goverments which don,t represent the ppl's will already to keep away from this anger and to use this anger against international pressure as what happened in syria today .
The anger fromf Westeren Goverments' bias in Israeli-palestenian conflict and iraq invasion and also war against terrosism has been all expressed in these protests by butning flags , and u know when u r in such protest and with such anger u cannot recognize between danish or norwegian or french flag .
The Boycott was also a puplic choice to express their condemnation .
i think the globalization could bring more serious events if we don,t learn how we respect the special cultural and religional differences and if we couldn,t define kind of international rules and law to control such cases .
-- Chaos 10:33, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Mostly the Caricatures in arabic magazines are considered by arabs anti-zionist not anti-semistic , Secondly no one will scream for seeing anti-islamic cartoons if u use just extreme or normal muslim but what is refused is claiming that Muhammad is this reson who is responsible for all terrorism and criminality -- Chaos 15:32, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't have any problems with jews everywhere in the world exept the ones in the occupied Palestine, because they are attacking our religion not our politics, and that's exactly what i feel about those cartoons. I wouldn't make fun of any prophets because simpliy i don't have the right to humiliate others. Radiant 07:06, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, Chaos, problem being you can't limit freedom of speech from religion. PARTICULARLY not when religious figures like the Ayatholla or the Pope insists being political. Furtermore - why do you care what a tiny newspaper, in a tiny predominantly Christian country on an entirely different continent thinks about your prophet? "In Islam it's illegal to draw the prophet"... Well, you can't seriously expect Europe to conform with Islamic law? I'm sure you don't so what it all boils down to is respect. Well, you can't force people to respect you either. There will always be nazis, biggots, fascists, racists, chauvinists, anti-semites, general morons and so on and so forth - the trick is to defeat them with arguments proving you are right. That's the thing about freedom of speech - you can say what you want - and receive due answer from all who disagrees with you. Wiki be With us! WanderingWiki 05:35, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Just after Hitler became chancellor and Hindenberg died, leaving Hitler in a position to assume total control of Germany, the nazis gathered up every work of art they could find that was deemed to be 'dangerous' to the nazi state. The standards they used for determining which were dangerous and which weren't ranged from works that outright challenged the legitimacy of the nazi party to experimental works that challenged the neo-classical models that Hitler was so enamored of. The works were gathered in a warehouse and displayed in a bizzare arrangement intended to be as unflattering as possible to the works and the artists who crafted them. This exhibit was shown in Berlin for a few days under the name ' Entartete Kunst' (degenerate art), shortly before they were destroyed.
Why was Adolph Hitler so terrified of art? For the same reason the USSR was terrified of dissidents. Art is dangerous, because it challenges people to think and to feel. It causes the mind to conceive of new ideas, and leaves the mind free to determine if such ideas should be accepted, rejected, or simply considered. It challenges existing concepts in much the same way. This is why communist governments in Eastern Europe and the USSR demanded that only one form of art was to be allowed, the ' socialist realist' style, which not only did not challenge the concept of state but reinforced it. The Piss Christ, Robert Mapplethorpe, the ballets of Vaslav Nijinsky and rap music are all examples of art that have challenged the West's concept of self. The outrage expressed by those who wished to maintain the status quo is merely fear that others who experience these art forms will reconsider their ideas and maybe even toss them out. If one considers the way things are to be the ideal, the idea that someone could agitiate for change (and do so efectively) scares the shit out of one. Even art that does not make political statements, but which challenges the styles seen as acceptable, (cf, Jackson Pollock, abstract expressionism, Brokeback Mountain) either in content or direction, can be seen as frightening by those who benefit from The Way Things Are, as they create the possibility that if things are different, their benefits will be cut off.
These cartoons are dangerous art. Several Muslim societies fear them, hate them, because they express ideas that challenge the Way Things Are. They are today's Entartete Kunst. In a world where the free expression of ideas has become increasingly regarded as sacred, such art is expressed more freely. The message contained within the cartoons is abominable. But the fact that they exist is not. In fact, the existence of art that challenges the mind is a thing to be celebrated, not reviled. Art is dangerous. But without dangerous art, there is no freedom of thought.
Several postmodern satirists have highlighted the point that -- since no one really knows what Mohammed looked like -- any image could be said to depict him. To that end, they have captioned photos of their thumbs or rudimentary stick figures as "Mohammed."
What if Muhammad actually looked like a set of floating letters that looked like M U H A M M A D or محمد? Haizum 12:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
That's a nice idea. But the point for Muslims is that Mohammed as well as God are not to be pictured. The whole conception of Islam is one of abstraction. So how do you represent an abstract entity? The closest we could get to is the written word (say, Allah or Mohammed -- in any language), which is seen very often in islamic sculptures on sacral monuments. But, of course, this is not directly related to the subject here. -- Cordula's Web 15:22, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I was just posing an ironic hypothetical: If the form of Muhammad isn't known, the possibility exists that it could have been M U H A M M A D in sequence, which would be ironic because of all the Muslims threatening violence (and acting upon it) for depicting Muhammad; they would then need to cut their own heads off and burn their own diplomatic structures. Haizum 17:00, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Different civilizations are facing each other, violence and insaulting are increasing step by step. After the publishing of the muhammad cartoons in several newspapers and after torching embassies and General Consulates in Damaskus and Beirut it is time to stop and to start thinking.
Many people have to learn a lot more about different religions and about different societies and their values. If we understand more of each other and if we start talking seriously to each other we can reach a peaceful living whith each other. Maybe that's the only way.
Let's find a platform where we can talk to each other, where we can learn more about each other and find a way to live together satisfied and in peace on this small planet.
Because I don't think this is the right place for a very general discussion about the whole issue, I have created a new yahoo group "It's time to talk". Everybody is invited to join and to help understanding each other a little bit better. If we start talking to each other instead of insaulting and fighting we will be all the winner. If not, we are all lost.
Please join the group and start spreading the information, start other groups, and other efforts to stop any kind of violence and insaulting.
Thank you very much. -- NilsB 18:25, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
It's time to reconsider. The proposition is for Wikipedia to permanently archive the Muhammad cartoons and make them freely distributable in perpetuity. I beg you to reconsider this. Please don't put Wikipedians in harm's way, the way Denmark put Danes in harm's way. The Danes are getting royally spanked for being associated with Jyllands-Posten, who timed their publication of these cartoons with the first day of Ramadan. Now the Danes are unable to do anything about their burned down buildings except solicit letters of sympathy from other countries. They don't dare wear their own flag now on their military uniforms. And nobody can adequately shield them from more consequences to come. Why put Wikipedia through the same stress? Instead of claiming freedom of the press and rubbing people's noses in it, why not say we are not showing the cartoons out of respect for Islam? What's not to love? 12.16.126.34 20:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I thoughouly agree, people are seriously angry about this, not even so much because someone would draw these things, but because newspapers are so blatantly recirculating them now that the muslem community has voiced their complaints about it. The article itself describes the images well enough, and out of respect for the Islamic community (and I mean respect, not fear, as the previous poster suggests) the images should be removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.211.145.240 ( talk • contribs) .
I'd just like to point out that the response by Muslims everywhere, pretty much has proved the point of the original cartoon that Islam is a religion of terror anyway. Burning embassies, attacking anyone European. How can they be outraged when what the Danish newspaper has said is entirely accurate?
I like all these Muslims in the UK going around saying "Europe is going to get a 9/11" and "Bin Laden will destroy Europe". Why don't they just piss off out of our country then, and live somewhere else. What complete hypocrites they are. Agent Blightsoot 16:11, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
1) someone draws a cartoon, claiming that you are excessively violent. 2) you protest this cartoon by becoming excessively violent. 3) Maybe they're on to something here..........
Two wrongs definitely do not make a right.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.139.254.170 ( talk • contribs) .
You ment religious cartoons Radiant 06:46, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Radiant, I have noticed from my amateur studies of world history that religion and politics are often so entertwined that it's practically impossible to determine where one begins and the other ends. Take the current War on Terrorism. How much of it is political? How much of it is religious? Or the whole matter of Israel. Is the Israeli-Arab conflict relious or political? Looking backward, was the Caliphate political or religious? Or the Vatican? Or the Byzantine Empire? Is there any matter which exists that is purely religious with no political undertones, or purely political with no religious ones? Even political entities that have loudly claimed they are atheistic have established personality cults that function as de facto religions.To refer to the two concepts as distinct is like concieving of the mind as a separate entity from the body. All's well and good until you study the brain, and then it gets fuzzy, doesn't it? 67.50.32.67
Haha, Pwnd! YHBT!
I'm not Islamic, but I don't think the cartoons should've been published. If the Muslims are going to burn down diplomatic buildings over a few cartoons, a good way to keep them quiet is to wrap some pork in a Danish flag and send it to a mosque. {{Template:NazismIsntCool/sig}} 13:03, 7 February 2006 (UTC) PS: Don't do it unless you want a fatwa issued against you.
This whole deal is out of control. These people, and more precisely their religious leaders, are using a minor incident to push people toward mass protests and violence. One cartoon in Europe showing some religion figure in a satire is hardly more than a minor incident. Yet the muslim leaders act all outraged, completely forgetting the fact that while it may be illegal to do that in muslim countries, it is perfectly legal in Europe. Furthermore, these same muslim countries display anti christian and anti Israel pictures in their own newspapers and media ON A WEEKLY BASIS, then act all outraged about this one cartoon? Complete utter hypocrisy. It was never about the cartoon, it's about special interest, some fanatic leaders wanting more violence and less coverage about what goes on in their own communities. Elfguy 16:33, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, personally I think thats obvious to everyone in the Western world. I mean its hard to have a NPOV when you have on one side violent protests and burning embassies, and on the other... A CARTOON! ChaosEmerald
Different civilizations are facing each other, violence and insaulting are increasing step by step. After the publishing of the muhammad cartoons in several newspapers and after torching embassies and General Consulates in Damaskus and Beirut it is time to stop and to start thinking.
Many people have to learn a lot more about different religions and about different societies and their values. If we understand more of each other and if we start talking seriously to each other we can reach a peaceful living whith each other. Maybe that's the only way.
Let's find a platform where we can talk to each other, where we can learn more about each other and find a way to live together satisfied and in peace on this small planet.
Because I don't think this is the right place for a very general discussion about the whole issue, I have created a new yahoo group "It's time to talk". Everybody is invited to join and to help understanding each other a little bit better. If we start talking to each other instead of insaulting and fighting we will be all the winner. If not, we are all lost.
Please join the group and start spreading the information, start other groups, and other efforts to stop any kind of violence and insaulting.
Thank you very much. -- NilsB 18:25, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
First of all, I denounce the cartoon as racist. I agree with the other cartoon in the main article saying if the target were Blacks or Jews, there would be a different argument regarding free speech. I'm all for free speech if it doesn't incite hatred. It seems to me that the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons do incite that kind of hatred and we should take a stance against it.
-- Ian.desouza 20:01, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
being islamic does not make you a specific race, so the cartoons are hardly racist, they might be depicted as anti religious, or islamic, but nothing about it has to deal with race. they are a satire that in my opinion many middle easterners have blown out of proportion. burning buildings down over a cartoon is never justified. and there are jokes about Blacks and jews all the time, ever watch South park, family guy, or just about anything on comedy central. Middle easterners claim theyre mad because it depicts all of them as terrorist stereotypes. well theyre not helping their image by burning down embassies, burning flags, and doing actions that result in peoples death. -- Barcode 21:47, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
How puzzling... "Racist"? Just how...Exactly how are these cartoons "racist"? What is " Racism" such cartoons decrying Islamicist violence by using caricatures of the Prophet of Islam, "racist"?
To be similar, a series of cartoons targeting "Blacks" or Jews would have to be decrying some sort of violent and murderous acts against others using depictions of a universally lauded religious authority within that community. So...let's try a thought experiment... Let's imagine a set of cartoons of Moses overseeing slaughter of Palestinians, putting up the Wall, etc. Is that "racist"? Would Jews (undoubtably offended) do what Muslims are doing? It seems to me that while some Jews might be that reactionary, we wouldn't have mass demonstrations like we're seeing now.
Another thought experiment... I'm not sure that I can make a plausible one regarding what you call "Blacks"... Perhaps a "Black" Jesus bashing gays and lesbians? Whatever... I still don't think it would go to this wildly rabid state... And I think that we would understand the intent and complexity of the cartoon rather that simply interpreting it as "Offensive" and "Racist" because it ostensively offends some group.
All of this being said... It is perhaps rash of anyone to do anything that might "offend" Muslims these days. If you stick your stick in a wasp nest...if you poke at a sleeping bear...You shouldn't be surprised if you get hurt. Emyth 21:46, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Emyth: I think a better comparison would be a caricature of a cannnibal witch doctor in a discussion about Africa. Yes, you can argue that it is just a parody of religious beliefs but in the context the association of belief and race is so close that it is easily understood otherwise.
198.54.202.18 23:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I think talking of 'the cartoons' is too general. The bomb-turban one does seem to me rather unpleasant - it may not have been meant that way but it can easily be understood as a modern version of, say, a corrupt Jewish money-lender. If it wasn't meant in that way, it is too vague to be effective.
The virgins one, on the other hand, is excellent - a funny skewering of religious fanaticism, and several others seem quite innocuous to me.
198.54.202.18 22:58, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
MOOSLAMS ARE NOT A RACE! END OF STORY! THERE IS NO RASCISM HERE UNLESS YOUR TINY LITTLE LEFTIST BRAINS ARE CREATING IT FROM YOU OWN IMAGINATIONS!
First of all I denounce your momma as a ho...
I'd Just like to point out that the people who are screaming "RACIST" "INFIDEL" and assorted variations on "YOU INSULT THE PROPHET SO WE'RE GOING TO BLOW YOU ALL TO HELL" are right of centre. The Leftists, like myeslf are saying that we, as humans are entitled to say what we feel. If it offends you then don't read the bloody cartoon!
Muslims should be the absolutely last people to accuse others of racism.
Only one paper has published the images so far but there is a debate on whether or not they should be. An Islamic leader in Melbourne has requested the Australian media to not publish them. Here is a quote from a journalist in the Sydney Morning Herald which I think sums up the pro argument rather well:
"I accept that to the genuine believer, there can only be one truth and in a pluralist democracy you must be free to proclaim it and to seek willing converts. But others must be free to debate and even disparage your beliefs.
It is simply not enough to declare your faith to be holy and inviolate and therefore off limits to criticism, however puerile the criticism might be. Anyway, if your beliefs are firmly and sincerely held, and if they are a divine revelation from God, surely they will not be shaken by a cartoon? And God will certainly not need protection from those you consider infidels." 1
SilentC 22:43, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I think it is fairly obvious that the western civilizations are superior to those in the Middle East. simple fact: We have freedom of speech and freeedom of the press and they stone people. They stone married women who are raped.
So far, there's been two "It's Time to Talk" posts and one "It's Time to Reconsider" post. Yaaawwwwnnn. So boring. Let's come up with a new title, okay? Something more original, and less cliche.
It's time to reconsider. The proposition is for Wikipedia to permanently archive the Muhammad cartoons and make them freely distributable in perpetuity. I beg you to reconsider this. Please don't put Wikipedians in harm's way, the way Denmark put Danes in harm's way. The Danes are getting royally spanked for being associated with Jyllands-Posten, who timed their publication of these cartoons with the first day of Ramadan. Now the Danes are unable to do anything about their burned down buildings except solicit letters of sympathy from other countries. They don't dare wear their own flag now on their military uniforms. And nobody can adequately shield them from more consequences to come. Why put Wikipedia through the same stress? Instead of claiming freedom of the press and rubbing people's noses in it, why not say we are not showing the cartoons out of respect for Islam? What's not to love? 12.16.126.34 21:20, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Now that I got that out of my system, let's talk about Wikipedia. Wikipedia is a repository of information, the internet in microcosm. The content is dependent upon a system of principles, including the NPOV nature of the commentary made on the pieces displayed here. It records history in as objective a light as possible, guided by the users who edit the information and the founders. The content is not, however, judged acceptable or unnacceptable merely because a group with an axe to grind states that they disapprove. Wikipedia does not attempt to rewrite history to appease an angry mob. Wikipedia merely records history and preserves a record of it for posterity. It is guided by a desire to understand the universe, not agitate for any one political or religious viewpoint. Therefore, it would be contrary to the very nature of Wikipedia to remove the controversial piece recorded here, just as it would be to remove the image of the piss christ. Oh, and one more time: Go Denmark! Luv ya, babes! Smooch! Big wet sloppy kisses from America! If I see a 'imported from Denmark' label on something and I can afford it, I'll buy it.
Will somebody please move this to "Arguments" where it belongs?-- Jbull 21:43, 7 February 2006 (UTC) -- No -- Junathans 20:05, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
so why are we even entertaining the propagandist view that some how anti-terrorist cartoons qualify as "rascism" Call me ishal dummy 23:36, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Primarily because the majority portion of the modern civilized world acknowledges that racism is moral evil. Label something as racist, and you are basically saying that it is evil. It's similair to the way people compare people they dislike to Hitler. Hitler is acknowledged practically everywhere as evil; therefore, call anyone you think is evil Hitler. Doing this has it's disadvantages, which are often unfortunately overlooked. Just as comparing anyone you don't like to the nazis diminishes the horror of what the nazis did (think about it. Your boss may indeed be a tyrannical dickhead. But she hasn't killed 7 million people. She's not a fucking nazi.) by equating whatever petty grievance you have to the holocaust, comparing a cartoon which makes political commentary on the recent behaviour of a group of religious fundamentalists (did the political cartoons regarding the Branch Davidians or Jonestown strike you as racist?) to racism, you are equating something you dislike to something horrible. In attempting to make the thing you dislike seem horrible, you merely succeed in making the horrible seem merely disagreeable.
This is ridiculous. If non-Muslims are also required not to disgrace Islamic traditions then technically every signal Woman in the world should adhere to the Hijab, and we’ve have no pornography.— Preceding unsigned comment added by greasysteve13 ( talk • contribs)
There are far more non-Muslim internet users in the world than Muslim ones (the former having pluntered the latter over hundreds of years of colonialism and post-colonialism and having superior technology). The articles here are biased in favour or secularism. I would urge everybody to read Nadeem Azam's article How the West is Killing Voltaire.
The issues surrounding free speech and censorship have been debated for centuries, although mainly in societies in which such a notion is accepted. Therefore, for example, in the US, in the Supreme Court and elsewhere, many useful and relevant principles have been elucidated. Some of these are highly pertinent to the Jyllands-Posten controversy, both in general, and in the Wikipedia context.
Those who are not from the US or not of western cultural valules should make no mistake here: Do not jump to the conclusion that any person from the US has no sensibilities and cannot be offended. There are many publically accesiible exhibitions, works of art, books (both fiction and nonfiction) as well as matters of criticism and opinion, that many US citizens have found to be highly offensive or even unethical, but which have circulated anyway. Examples abound in art that has depicted Christian icons and holy images in disregard, ridicule, or even filty contexts. I will not attempt a reference list here. In addition, ideas and activities that are strictly forbidden by major religous groups are publlically advertised in the US. Examples are found in commerical adverisement for abortion, or the open promotion of homoesxuality as an accepted alternative lifestyle.
Anericans have come to a relatively stable arrangement regarding these clashes of personally-held values with public discourse and open publication of ideas. I believe that the basic principles can be summarized by these two:
1) If something offends you, whether it be an idea, or an image, or a written page, or a TV program, then you can and should choose to not expose yourself to it. Turn the page, do not but the newspaper, do not attend the stage production, stay way from the museum -- if these media are purveying the content that you find revolting.
The above notion allows us to protect ourselves from offense, provided that the society (government) protects people from a forced exposure -- and this is not too difficult, as in general there are choices. People are not forced to go to see the offensive art exhibit. But what if somehow the offensive material is thrust upon us anyway? This leads to the second guideline:
2) Things that are blatantly offensive and that have no other purpose should in fact be limited by society. There can be age limitations, warning signs, or prohibitions agaist wide circulation by mass media. The government has a delicate role here, because something can be outright banned or, more likely, strongly discouraged, only if it has no "socially redeeming value" or no "legiotimate purpose" other than to produce offense.
Let us analyze the Jyllands-Posten ruckus in these perspectves. First, we can appreciate that Muslims, especially strict Muslims, maye take offense at forbidden depiction. These people should not buy or read such newspapers, or provide viewers to TV stations that show material offensive to them. In places where there are many Muslims, this can be a powerful economic push towards respecting these values. But that is a secondary effect, the primary one is that the individual avoids being offended, while those who are no so offended have access to the information, or art, or criticism that they wish to see. In this regard one must wonder how the masses of people in Afganistan came to have such awareness of what is being published in a Danish newspaper. This seems to be the opposite effect -- people are seeking out, or being provided with, that which offends them, even if in the normal course of events they would have no possibility of exposure to the offending material.
In the opinion of many, and of this author, at least sdome of the 12 cartoons published by Jyllands-Posten had some conceivable purpose, especially in the context of the story about the childern's book author who could finds no illustrators. However the supplementary three images - the pig picture, and the dog picture especially, strike me as not only purely offensive and without purpose, but also out-of-place. It is not diffficult to imagine that some one with a political purpose added these to the "portfolio", and I have seen no evidence that those pictures were ever intended to be included with the 12 in the Jylands-Posten collection. It is not the present purpose to analyze the clearly manipulative purposes in promoting this disgustingly "augmented" collection anti-Western propaganda, althoug that seems to be surely the case. However, I believe that many people would find the supplementary three pictures to warrant condemnation as inflammatory and intrinsically offensive. Still, I believe that most societies would not place an outright legal ban on the publication of such pictures. Instead, it could permit them to be regarded as "hate speech" or "obscenity" and thereby make it too risky from the perspective of most media outlets to widely publicise them.
In the ways outlined above a free society and its citizens can permit free speech while also protecting people from constant exposure to blatantly offensive material. The Danes would not have published the pig and dog pictures in a major newspaper. Likewise, religious Muslims may well want to decide to stop buying that newspaper just on the basis of the 12 that were published. But I cannot imagine that any thinking person could view the Paris Soir front-page cartoon as intrinsically offensive, even if some reasonable Muslims might choose to not but that day's issue because of a technical violation of a Muslim tradition.
Including any material in Wikpedia that might be offenmsive to some should be done carefully, with appropriate labels and warnings. But material shuld not be excluded only because it offends some people, provided that those people have the ability to avoid seeing it.
88.38.89.137 22:41, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
The argument that everyone should see the cartoons which the debate is about is meaningless. To have all those cartoons is pointless. Because: A Westerner will hardly find anything wrong with the cartoons, on the other hand, a Muslim will be ofended and feel insulted with them. The verbal discriptioon of the case much more important and strong in this case. The cartoons should be taken from the article or at least only one of them (artist drawing picture cartoon) should be kept! Resid Gulerdem 21:47, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Sigh......Not again.. Varga Mila 22:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry but your argument looks to be completely irrelevant to me. Is it hard for you to see this: This article is not explanation of the cartoons, it is about the controversy caused by them. A Westerner cannot understand the controversy by looking at the cartoons, neither a Muslim. There should be a fair acoount of what has happened in the article instead... The article is touching quite many topics and there is no need for -at least all- these pictures. Please answer this point if you want to respond... Resid Gulerdem 23:56, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Resid, there are 3 points here:
1) "A verbal description would work better to that end". Absolutely NOT. The most objective, NPV, philosophically and politically untainted description of the cartoons is provided by...: the cartoons.
2) "Some people feel insulted.." This has been discussed extensively. Do respect the time and energy devouted by people presenting arguments supporting as well as disagreeing with your point of view, and consult the archive.
3) "One can easily find them and in fact everybody has already seen them". Firstly, save the herostratic cartoon of a man with a bomb in his turban, they are NOT readily available. Secondly, and most importantly, I am quite sure that many will agree that a major contributor to much of the unrest is that in fact NOT everybody has already seen the cartoons, but in stead received those illustrious verbal descriptions of them.
The violent unrest is not in Europe. It is in countries in which access to the cartoons is extremely limited. Varga Mila 00:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I think you misunderstand the consequence of my argument. There seems to be a (albeit possibly superficial, but nonetheless) negative correlation between access to the cartoons and violent unrest Varga Mila 00:41, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
4) "A Westerner can see the cartoons but still may not understand the dispute". Many Westerners DO understand the dispute, but do consider the freedom of speech a central tenet to a Western democracy. Freedom of speech includes the right to choose not to be in nice, or in agreement with others (i.e. the majority/the powerful etc.). Varga Mila 23:54, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Freedom of speech? Right to choose not be in agreement with others? Consult your suggestion to me in your argument (2). What a contradiction! Resid Gulerdem 00:07, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Resid, you are quite free to voice your opinion here (no one will demand that you be prosecuted therefore - or indeed worse). I am simply saying that if you consult the archives, you can (re-) read page after page presenting the exact same argument, as you do here. And the responses thereto. Varga Mila 00:27, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
An ensiklopedia should has some standarts. Among them, there is no room for an insult in an article! You can practise your rights to choose not to be nice to people in your daily life... Resid Gulerdem 00:07, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes it should. A cartoon (less provocative - artist drawing cartoon) would give enough information about the cartoons. Other information which is this article is about has nothing to to with seeing the cartoons... Resid Gulerdem 00:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I know that you are against antisemitism. You were quite suprised to learn that we carry such pictures. Sympathy is irrelevant and, yes, pictures that show Jews as blood thirsty vampires and fat bankers crashing the world with their feet do insult my values. While Israelis are not all Jewish (actually less than 80%) and Jews mostly not Israelis, pictures of the impacts of Israeli warfare and the wall are known to create harsh reactions against Jews in general, including physical attacks. I also vote to keep such pictures in. Pictures of Abraham, Moses and God too if they are relevant. I also encourage you to do a professional job as a Wikipedia editor and think about which information is important for us as an encyclopedia to provide. gidonb 00:50, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
There have been a number of pro-Muslim posts arguing that a cartoon depiction slamming Judaism would be felt as more offensive than one slamming Islam in the West. It's curious you folks would choose Judaism as your target. You see, the vast majority of the West is not Jewish, but christian. Had you asked, "would a cartoon making fun of jesus have been offensive to you?", I would say that you were merely looking for an icon as sacred to the western mind as mohammad is to the eastern mind. But for some reason, you won't use that icon, will you? You keep attacking the Jews, instead. Maybe this is a parapraxis on your part. Maybe it just underlines your fundamental hatred of Jewish people. Your Freudian Slip is showing, dearie. You should cover that up before anyone sees it.
Rasid, I understand that this is very offensive to many Muslims (mostly Sunni as Shiites have been more tolerant of pictures of Mohammed). But there are a few points I think should be made.
1) I think that access to the pictures is important. Whether or not they are prominantly displayed or you have a (click here for the cartoons) links. There are aspects of the cartoons for which the verbal descriptions simply are not adequate. Yet, for those of us who don't speak Danish, Arabic, and Farsee the descriptions are also important. I would not favor merely removing them under any circumstances.
2) I don't think the rage is just about the cartoons. I think a big part of it is ageneral frustration against the West and a sense that they are being the victim of cultural colonialism. Thus publication or not of the cartoons is unlikely to be an issue.
3) I do not think that dialog is furthered by suggesting that nothing that anyone finds merely insulting can be barred from the encyclopedia. If you wish to suggest this, I would ask you to discuss concrete harms of putting it there. Certainly in this context, I don't think that it incites hatred of Muslims.-- 206.130.134.147 23:20, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
If I can throw my two cents into the conversation. I'm an American, a Christian, and while I'm not personally insulted by the cartoons because they're not targeting me, I am upset and disappointed that they were published in the first place.
I mean, honestly, who could possibly have said in the paper's editorial meeting, "Let's go ahead and put these comics in our paper because no one will be offended by them?" Clearly, the paper intended to offend people and spark controversy, and there's even an argument to be made that the paper is guilty of incitement to riot.
The editors knew it was going to piss a bunch of people off, and they knew that there are dangerous Islamic extremists that would use the comics as an excuse to blow things up and kill people. And the people who were thinking about becoming terrorists, but were sitting on the fence, might very well have decided to become terrorists as a result of a Western newspaper severely insulting the Prophet Muhammad, the most revered figure in Islam short of Allah Himself.
And even those Muslims who aren't terrorists, and have no intention of becoming terrorists, are still angry about this and seeing it as yet another example of Western values being forced upon the non-Western world, or religious intolerance.
There was simply no good outcome that could possibly have come from the publication of the pictures. Sure, the paper might be counting the few extra krones in their pockets from people buying the paper to see what the fuss is about. And maybe they're enjoying the exposure of having the paper's name in mass media all over the world (figuring that "any publicity is good publicity"). But the paper has exposed its own employees to danger. The paper's headquarters have been the target of several bomb threats, and if you think that there aren't terrorists out there that are anxiously awaiting getting a shot at the cartoonists, you're probably naive.
I'm not saying the terrorists are justified in taking such an action, and I don't believe that anything should be the catalyst for anyone to say, "I'm so angry that I'm going to kill people I don't know and burn buildings in protest", but, really, Jyllands-Posten should've known better!
I'm a supporter of free speech, and I support the right to provoke controversy if it's used to raise the level of debate. But controversy for its own sake, or for the sake of selling a few extra newspapers-- particularly when it's this controversial-- is stupid and wrong. There was absolutely no good outcome that could have resulted from the publication of these comics.
However-- I believe Wikipedia has an obligation to show these pictures, because it is first and foremost a site that is designed to educate and inform. Someone might ask, "What's all the fuss about?" and that person deserves to see the source of the controversy. People are killing each other over this thing! Nothing could possibly justify that, just as it would be equally wrong for an extremist Christian group to bomb a building over Piss Christ.
I'm grateful, in any event, that the images are low-resolution and you can't make out some of the details on some of the comics. There's a thin line here between the need to inform and the need not to cause further insult to Muslims. If someone can't make out all the details and wants to see close-ups, though, they can find them for themselves-- I'm sure they're readily available somewhere, as I've seen high-res shots of them myself.
And, by the way, when I saw the pictures, I shook my head sadly and said, "What in the world inspired someone to publish this?!" I'm not offended on my own behalf but I'm offended on behalf of the Muslims I've met in my life, most of whom are kind, good-hearted and decent people. And I'm offended on behalf of 1.5 billion people, most of whom I've never met but most of whom are not terrorists.
Even if these cartoons had not inspired people to riot and kill, they would still have been a monumentally offensive and stupid idea. I believe that people should have the right to practice whatever religion they wish to practice, and do so without being mocked or offended by people who disagree with what they believe.
So, with all due respect, Resid, you're wrong when you say "a Westerner will hardly find anything wrong with the cartoons." I do, and I'd go so far as to say that many do. I find anything that discriminates against people on the basis of religion, race, gender, sexual orientation or anything else, offensive. I find discrimination itself to be offensive. And, again with all due respect, by saying "a Westerner won't find anything wrong with the cartoons", you're generalizing and, no doubt inadvertently, discriminating too.
I'm not upset with what you said, though, because I'm pretty sure you didn't mean it like that. I just want you to understand that not all Westerners are culturally insensitive, and that not all Westerners want to impose their values on other people. ekedolphin 11:05, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
MyPOV: I would be personally insulted if I had not been allowed to see the cartoons. I would interpret it as implying that I was so mentally retarded that could not be permitted to make my own interpretation of the cartoons. I do not think I am alone in this. So whether the cartoons stay or go, someone is going to be insulted. DanielDemaret 19:54, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
If newspaper editors refuse to print matter on the sole basis that someone, somewhere, could possibly be offended by what is being said, then almost nothing of value would ever be printed. Go pick up a copy of the TV Guide if you want intellectually dead writing devoid of social commentary, purposefully bland and careful not to offend material. No, wait! TV Guide might offend-remember, Amish people don't watch television. We can't have any depictions of television in the press. Okay, what about USA Today? That's a pretty bland paper. Oh, shit! USA Today has articles about current events. Those are always controversial. Okay, okay. I guess we'll have to stick to kids' publications like Sesame Street. No, wait! One of the characters on the television show died. We can't mention death. THat might offend!
Oh, fuck. Looks like no matter what we print, it'll offend somebody, won't it? Might as well just not print anything at all. Let's all go back to the middle ages, and just forget about reading and writing altogether. We'll let the church and the state determine what we should think. Oh, shit! I forgot. There were crusades in the middle ages, and progroms against Jewish people. That's really offensive. Well, I guess we can't rely on church and state to tell us what to think. Wow. Maybe we should just stop thinking altogether. Let's become a nation of couch potatoes, who can't keep a single thought in our heads other than "Where's the next bag of Doritos coming from" and "I sure would like to fuck Paris Hilton".
Dammit! We're already there!
Moved from Talk:Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy joturner 20:47, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
If that's actually true, it says a lot about the utter lunacy of this whole issue. Dozens of people are getting killed ... over cartoons?! Good God let it go already! Here in the USA we have honest-to-God Neo-Nazi marches, a lot worse than cartoons, and no one dies. Ah well, different cultures, different values on human life and free speech ... -- Cyde Weys 20:38, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
A usual Europian hypocrisy again!... The people there cannot say what they believe. David Irving charged for saying that 'there actually was no holocaust'. Now where is the 'freedom of speech' for Mr. Irving? Can an editor incorporate this into the article?
Isn't this a two-facedness and double standard? As a person who believe that holocaust has, unfortunately, happened, I still believe that anyone who think the Jewish arguments are not strong, should be able to say it. The dilemma is, people there charging DI for telling his ideas that hurt Jews, but backing up the ones who hurt Muslim's feelings... Resid Gulerdem 23:20, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
First of all, when you say Jew, you actually mean his/her religion first. Their nation based on their religion, and without the religion they couldn't survive. So recial vs religious hate speeches doesn't make sense. I do not want to discuss why this seperation is so meaningless at all... I can see that you are missing the main idea here: The point is not laws or regulations against racial or religious hate speeches, it is about the freedom of speech wheather it is related to this or that thing. Resid Gulerdem 00:51, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Resid, I am understanding of where you are coming from. I'm sorry that you feel offended by the cartoons, and I apologize if I was being an ass to you and others when this story first broke.
That being said, I believe your comments on the talk page of the artice were misguided. Wikipedia isn't about offending or pleasing anybody, it is about documenting the truth of the world to the best of our knowledge and abilities. It is a country that is being hypocritical by charging holocaust deniers, not our community of internet "junkies", if you will. In fact, as it has been stated on said talk page, Wikipedia has a picture of the most (in)famous book on holocaust denial, and not only that, but provides a link to the full text of said book.
Just like you ask us not to blame the entire Muslim community for the violent actions of a few, we ask you not to blame every Westerner on here or elsewhere for the actions of one country's judicial system.
I ask you (and all Wikipedians) to take a deep breath, and remember that above all, understanding and truth leads to peace. And that is the true message whether you call Him Allah, God, Jehovah, Buddah, etc.
Yours in the quest for the ultimate truth,
- Maverick 01:36, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't the talk page be for discussing the article, not expressing views about the cartoon? Andjam 02:01, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
isn't it Myth that Jews are Race ? upon which scientific base u depend when u claim that jews are race ??? how could u collect European jews and Ethiopian or Yemen jews in one race ... I wonder how could u believe a stupid lie like this -- Chaos 15:37, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Any rational person should be able to see the difference between the inherent evil in the systematic and planned executions of 4-6 million persons... and an editorial cartoon. Thats just common sense.
69.156.153.124 18:16, 25 February 2006 (UTC)CanadianPhaedrus
The Prophet Mohammad cartoon controversy was protrayed as a fight for free speech and freedom of press by many people. Now where is the "free speech and freedom of press" when it comes to other controversal issue as "denial of holocaust". One religious belief of prohibition against images is ridiculed while the heresy of "denial of holocaust" results in prison sentence. These events really displays the different perceptions of sacred and profane in different cultures and people.
Siddiqui 04:43, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Siddiqui, as I mentioned to Resid above, you too shoud know that WikiPedia is not censored when it comes to Holocaust denial, even going so far as to provide links to sites that claim the Holocaust didn't occur. With that in mind, was there anything of an editorial nature regarding Wikipedia's Muhammad cartoons controvery article that you wanted to discuss? Netscott 06:13, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Now, where is the beloved freedom of press now? Why dont you also call Australia [sic] for enemies of the freedom of speech? Is it since they aren't Muslims?
Get the name David Irving in this article, i dont really care how, just it is in a notable place, and that it shows how people connect this two events.-- Striver 12:47, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
David irving makes me want to vomit. I detest the man, if you could call him that. He is an apologist for a regime that murdered and tortured millions of innocents, some of whom were my relatives. The man he admires destroyed the country my ancestors came from and forced my grandparents to flee to the US.
One of the more repulsive aspects of the regime David Irving so strongly advocates for was it's capacity to jail people for saying things it felt endangered the state. Much like what Austria did when it jailed David Irving.
Which is why saying that I disagree with his having been jailed makes me sick to my stomach. But to do otherwise would make me sick to my soul. Just as the cartoonists, the Danes, and the West cannot be held liable for having expressed free speech, it is hypocrisy to deny monsters even as foul as David Irving the right to do likewise.
If I met David Irving in person, I would punch him in the face before even saying hello. But I cannot condone having him imprisoned.
Set him free, and then let's all line up to tell him what we think of him.
Wandering Star 23:50, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Can anybody help me understand the difference between the resluts of this poll and Poll 1 for this article? What is the rationale behind the results? Please review the comments before answering... Resid Gulerdem 06:00, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
One is a graphic picture of a man distending his own anus and the other is a cartoon. It's like night and day. -- Cyde Weys 06:15, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
P: 'I wish you could make some comments about this specific point which was core of my question.' C: Your core question was to explain the difference in the polls. I commented on that above. If the comment was not enough, then please make a more specific question, and I shall answer.
P: 'The article has the description of the cartoons already, which is more important in my opinion. As I said before, a Westerner may not see the reason behind the dispute by just looking at the cartoons, because of the cultural difference.' C: Both description and picture are necessary. If I had a free hand, I would also include a myriad of alternative interpretations from different sources, but then there would not be room for anything else on the server. I, just like Descartes, and I suspect many others, need to see the picture in front of me. I no longer have the kind of imagination of my childhood where I could picture an image in my head just by someone saying “it is a picture of a man”, and automatically determine if the man is an insult to me.
P: 'Being more or less contraversial, supporting the freedom of speech looks to be subjective to me ' C: Are you saying that freedom of speech is controversial?
Q: 'Are we having the article in this form to support freedom of speech?' A: There is no need for that. We are not having this article in support of free speech. Wikipedia supports freedom of speech simply by being an encyclopaedia, since it wants to give this knowledge to all. It is however, one of the reasons that make the cartoons interesting, and the goatse uninteresting.
Q:'I was thinking that an article should be based on facts not on if we want to support this or that!' A: Are you saying that we should not support freedom of speech and still show the facts? I am afraid that is a logically impossible. The intent in the idiom to "show the facts" already includes the intent of supporting "freedom of speech".
Q: 'Is there a double standard on this issue?'
A: By me, right here, there is no double standard. I support showing the facts, that is, I support freedom of speech. Your suggestion is to remove the Mohammed cartoons. I e, your suggestion is clearly that we do not show the facts. However, there seem to be those in wikipedia who would apply double standards. There are, for example, those here who want the cartoons to be seen, since they are not offended by them, and at the same time, want to hide the goatse-pictures since they think that they are grotesque. With such people, you have indeed found a double standard. But not with me, since I don't care about whether the goatse pictures are shown or not per se. It does not matter in the slightest to me whether they are grotesque or not. The only issue to me is whether the pictures add some info to the article. Since I am not interested in goatse (I have seen a lot worse), I have not voted there.
DanielDemaret 23:17, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Resid, now that I have read this comment from Babajobu, I confirm that, as he confesses, and as I mentioned in the last paragraph of mine above, you are correct in assuming that some people apparently have a double standard. Perhaps they are even in majority, and your accusation would be totally correct against them. I also object to this double standard. I am all the way with you on that point! DanielDemaret 23:41, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Who the hell deleted the vast majority of my comments from this thread? And why? Yes, I'm using bold. Haizum 00:53, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
See: History
Does anyone even know what they look like like?-- 143.92.1.33 06:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
What a mess!! Dozens of warning templates, fork pages, contless archives, it looks like Catrina paid a visit here! Can't something be done to bring this talk page up to a less cluttered appearence? Loom91 11:58, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Dont you think it is equally bad that Muslims are rioting and destroying property over this. Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance. these acts of violence are equally reprehensible to Islam as the cartoons. REALIZE WHAT YOU ARE DOING. the world is watching act like muslims, not like undisciplined individuals.
-- 130.108.185.198 03:40, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Hypatia! the light in the world is diminshing again.
Does GOD create hatered. A simple but a big YES...a small cartoon of a man who walked on this earth a few centuries ago is enough to create ripples of hatered in the minds of people who follow the man. What kind of religion is this? Is it so weak that an unknown cartoonist can shake it...and that too so violently, that it created inside men the very things that all religion teaches us not to follow...hatered, violence, crime....you name it...but then something must be wrong. If one wants to get respect from others then he/she should also respect others. Do they follow it? cow is considered to be a sacared animal and millions of hindus worship it as GOD, but every year millions of this bovine species are killed and eaten, specially during ID, a very auspicious islamic festival. Are they not showing disrespect to the hindus when they first butcher their GOD and then eat it? May be if you ask them they will say that they don't consider the cow to be god and hence eat it...but then the dannish cartoonist also thought that Mohammed was just like any other man and since we create cartoons of world leaders,sportsperson, entertainers, scientists...etc why not that of a religius leader...and he created the cartoon.People all over the world do not show disrespect to hindus when they eat beef, because it is their food. Same way creativity and freedom of expression, are mental food for people who think they live in a civilized society and have got every right to express their views. They cannot turn themself into human bombs or fight against people with different views by violent means because their conscience doesn't allow them, but still think they should put their points across, hence they take the help of cartoons for example to express their viewpoints. If they dont' they will be living the life of a zombie...so to live they have to express....just like to live one has to eat. Hence the westerern world should not say sorry to anyone, if they say it...they will be nailing thier own coffins. If this world has to survive and not fall into another dark age then reason must prevail. (jediath@gmail.com)
Arguments on the underlying issues ( Islam, free speech, blasphemy, etc.) go here. Crotalus horridus ( TALK • CONTRIBS) 00:02, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks to Wikipedia for providing a venue for the discussion of these ideas.
I am a professed born again whitey that take offense at this whole escapade I believe dearly in the value of a free press and belive just as strongly that one should have the riht to practice ones religion but for these halfwitted journalist t stand up and pretend that by offended 25% of the popuation of the world they have in some way or other sruck a blow for free speech firstly as the cliche goes free speech is not free and it is certainly not been purchased from some broken crayon in a second rate comic daily in... if people took the time and trouble to invoke every right at our disposal nothing would ever get acomplished. the people that instigated this crap should be ashamed of themselves they're obviously people that have too much time and ink on their hands and now the blood of innocent that have been caught in the cross fire.
Why is this issue being ignored in this topic? Racism against whites deserves to be acknowledged every bit as racism against non-whites. Merton 04:03 4 February 2006 (UTC)
It not racism, its the prejudice toward religion. You can say the Muslim held prejudice toward Christianity (and vice versa), but you can't say all Muslim hate Nordic Europeans, becuase is Muslim is a cross-race religion, and welcome any race. 142.161.115.85 21:36, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the section should be revived. European do not adhere to freedom of speech seen in America so accusation of hypocracy is at least a valid topic of discussion. Secondly, given the section of "Islam and blasphamy", counter example of other religion or culture or political ideology is not only relevant but also fair to muslim. FWBOarticle
Freedom of speech seen in America?!
Sorry, but what are you talking about? Just yesterday the
Superbowl finals were said to be censored in real-time, by e.g. cutting out certain parts of the
Rolling Stones' songs. Or they did not even allow certain ones to be performed. All cause they were afraid of another
Nipplegate like the one caused by
Janet Jackson.
OK, I would not call it speech in her case. (rather expression, and such nudity is not permitted by
Islam either in many cases, especially for Women)
However cutting songs live while performed, or speeches just so nobody ever accidentially pops out the "f*" word, or (as we all heard) even censoring and faking large number or articles HERE is not, what I'd call freedom of speech...
--
Richard 01:39, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Article 10, Freedom of expression
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.
2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.
Ironically, the boycott of ALL Danish goods would hurt everyone, regardless of whether or not they wanted the cartoons published. Accountable Government 07:15, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I see huge news coverages & well....this article too, & all the hue & cry about the freedom of speech. What I don’t see is the fact that these cartoons are not just insulting, they incite hate & phobia against Islam. It’s not about what Islam teaches or what it doesn’t teach; it’s about the so called treasured values of Europe. Why a person making jokes against blacks is called racist, a person making jokes against Jews is called anti-Semite, but when the same thing happens against Islam, everybody remembers Freedom of speech. Why isn’t the same freedom of speech practiced when dealing with blacks, whites, Jews, Christian’s e.t.c. Why is kike or nigger considered racist but depicting Muhammad with a bomb in his turban or “Prophet! daft and dumb, keeping woman under thumb” is called "Freedom of speech”. I am ashamed to see this hypocrisy practiced by people who consider themselves to be the "civilized world”. Does civilization teach us to have dual standards? I am very sorry to see that Europe is again being taught to hate. This time inside the shiny wrapping of "Freedom of expression” by the media. First it was the witch-hunt, then we had the holocaust, I hope we don’t get a third session of global bloodshed, since before the holocaust; Jews were being depicted in the same manner by the Nazis. Cant we have a single section on this article about the kind of sick racism that this cartoon is promoting, other that the good old "they don’t understand our values of freedom" rant, there are tons of Muslim sources saying that these cartoons can be equated with stuff that are considered Anti-Semite. F.a.y. تبادله خيال /c 09:57, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Islamophobia is a correct term although irrelevant. I know this because I'm also personally feeling this phobia. However, Islamophobes arent burning down foreign embassies and threatening people. In the UK, the protestors have gotten away with what would put anyone else in jail--calling for beheading and other forms of violence and death.The opening paragraph of this particular comment assumes that there is something wrong with growing fear when in fact, hundreds of thousands of people in the region are destroying property and hunting people are creating a good basis for that fear. 134.132.167.123 21:34, 5 February 2006 (UTC)TBAS
-- User:dtii I cant wait for their reaction when South Park does there Muhammad episode!!!
Not too likely, after freedom of speech has already been cut on them, when they did the "Bloody Mary" episode!!! (not seen it, but it was reported to be about a statue of Mother Mary bleeding where most women do regularly...) -- Richard 15:35, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I believe the epidode you are refering to Richard was incorrectly refrenced:
Stan is embarrassed in front of his friends when his dad gets pulled over for drunk driving. In a neighboring town, a statue of the Virgin Mary begins to bleed -- out of her ass -- and people begin to flock around it to find a cure for their diseases. Stan's dad is sure the bleeding Virgin can cure him of his "disease." etc. File:Http://www.southparkstudios.com/img/content/season9/914.gif
Wikipedia Bloody Mary South Park Episode -- Pyoungberg 20:04, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Well thanks Pyoungberg, I did not mean to reference it, but as there is quite a detailed article (including all the medical/religious findings ;-) good you pointed it out. -- Richard 01:29, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Strange enough, the same companies behind that as stated in the article also are involved in other censorships caused by the Nippelgate affair of Janet Jackson on TV - Viacom
When they make that episode, they'd better not put any "unwanted" material in it. The quintuplets one was peppered with negative references to Romania. {{Template:NazismIsntCool/sig}} 12:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC) PS: If any newspapers in Romania publish those cartoons, I will not buy Danish products again. --- "PS: If any newspapers in Romania publish those cartoons, I will not buy Danish products again." did you mean "will not buy Romanian products again." ?
---
did you mean "will not buy Romanian products again." ?
Your poll is a complete farce! Someone just copied & pasted the signatures from the first poll into the second poll. In any case, Wikipedia is no democracy but there are rules. Such as WP:DBAD. For this reason I'll move the picture Rajab 16:04, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, I hope, you do not also assume that e.g. because the
Troll is also mostly a character initially
Scandinavia...?;-)
--
Richard 01:47, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Let's not make this a bigger "drama" than it already is shall we?Please learn to put things into context.wikipedia doesn't believe in censcoring.The image is there to illustrate the situation and to be complete.
Your example of a porno picture of a relative isn't comparable,the porno shot is not notable,this picture IS notable,it's what the whole uproar is about.If there wasn't an uproar this picture would never have gotten the attention outside denmark than it is now has.-- Technosphere83 16:14, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
"your side",I'm on no "side".Maybe I'm so out of the loop,but if I were a muslim I would like to see for myself what this whole fuss was about.Secondly there is already a general warning on wikipedia that it may contain content that may be offensive.And lasly wikipedia isn't making a "statement" it only tries to describe.-- Technosphere83 16:20, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Rajab - How do you define "your side" anyway? Sounds like a persecution complex (us vs. them)... 207.237.21.117 16:25, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Incidentall, no one wrongly cut-and-pasted votes as per Rajab's accusation. When the poll was refactored, all votes--keep and delete and link--were moved to the three-column form. No votes were lost, none were added. Babajobu 19:36, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I would like to have that picture removed too, but because im not a user in here and dont understand how to eidt it, i cant vote >.<! 142.161.115.85 20:51, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, so now we're watching embassies being burned to the ground (including offices for countries not even involved in this 'dispute'). Does true Islam support this behaviour, or is this the behaviour of fundamentalists? Budgiekiller 21:53, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I have an important question considering this matter. We are talking wheter these cartoons are an insult against the muslim god. but the person which is portrayed is mohammad and not allah. So if I may ask: is Mohammad seen as an prohet but an human or is he seen as a god by the muslims? If we consider that Mohammad was also an historic person we could approach this problem fron this angle. Historic person have alwasy been portrayed in cartoons, anno one is portaying the muslim god, which is allah?
More than 100 people have died because of riots against the cartoons. The thing is, they are only cartoons, they may be offensive, but seriously they are only cartoons. And people say videogames cause violence...
People always have predjudices towards others.One reason is that people are ignorant.And I believe that the most part of Non-Muslims do not really know the person Muhammad (s.a.s=peace upon with him).I am a Muslim against terror and violence.Allah (s.w.t) says in the Holy Quran Surah 16:90 (translation of the meaning) (and after saying "bismillahirahmanirahim=In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, Most Merciful"):"Allah commands justice, the doing of good, and liberality to kith and kin, and He forbids all shameful deeds, and injustice and rebellion: He instructs you, that ye may receive admonition." Here is a website in many languages describing our Prophet Muhammad (s.a.s): http://www.islamway.com/mohammad
Quiet to the contrary , I do agree with you and the need to protect freedom of speech not just in Denmark but also in the rest of the world .JP have the legal and the moral right under Danish Law to publish 'journalistic events' in all forms without exception.
In my views JP should not have published an apology nor the government of Denmark should apologize on behalf the newspaper .
In the same token, People of Denmark should not be offended when their products are boycotted.Readers have a fundamental principal to exercises their rights as they wish . Consumers have the right to buy whatever they choose .
From a philosophical point of view , this is a new form of conflict with two parties . One armed with Democracy taboos and the other party is armed with Internet chat, text messaging and SMS and collective purchasing power. This is a complete new form of conflicts and it seems like we are rewriting new chapter of history
So far in this conflict there are no winners .Everyone is hurt .Both People and businesses are hurt .
(the opinions expressed below are not my personal ones, they are merely examples, sorry in advance if they offend anyone)
Many readers who seem for deleting the article keep bringing up repeatedly the point that supposedly Western civilization does not allow people to speak ill of the Holocaust or say racists remarks. I would like to clarify this once and for all.
1) You are allowed to say anything you want in most nations with free speech. As someone pointed out earlier, you can deny the holocaust, you can call black people "niggers", you can call chinese people "chinks", you can call koreans "gooks", I can march up and down the street with a sign that says all "Jews should die because all they do is take money" and NOT get fined or arrested as long as I am being peaceful. The few nations that do not allow speaking ill of the holocaust are the exception rather than the rule. So stop saying "you cannot say this in your nation..." or "this is hippocratic!". Such reasoning is false and entirely wrong. It based on false assumptions and no actaul understanding of the laws of free speech.
2) Wikipedia is not made up of Jews, Muslims or Christians. There are people from OTHER parts of the world as well. Or did people start to forget that there are 1 billion Chinese or 1 billion Indians and not to mention the rest of East Asia. I'm getting very very annoyed at people who think this place is only filled with Europeans and keep voicing that there is a European bias. The world is not Europe, US and the Middle East. The "other" people have opinions too. Hitokirishinji 20:36, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
...... Uhlan....... Am new There is an element of truth in the cartoons. All the actions of the Prophet were never above scrutiny. He did order an assasination of a poetess. He did permit mqassacare of Jews after a battkle. He did make his son divorce and then marry his daughter in law. He somehow made God send edicts to facilitate the divorce and the marriage and numerous marriages were permitted only to him by Gods edict> he married an underage girl of about 8 years and consumnated the marriage. The Koran does promise Virgins to martyrs exhorts Believers to kill other religionists, The Muslims have off course a right not to have their object of faith to be critisised . But this is an article and cartton in a Danish paper, not a paid advt in an Arab paper. Any average Mullah spits more venom against Christians Jews europeans and Idol worshippers than trhe cartoon above. The Muslims have to see both sides of in temperate behaviour. Anyway no o0ne nothing is going to remain a holy cow in the years to come and Muslims have to grow up
More than a decade back when I read Samuel P. Huntington's article about " Clash of Civilizations" then I was really surprised about his theory. The question for me was to ponder as to why would Islam and Christianity fight? I couldn't comprehend the scenario which was to unfold later on. I am a Muslim and have great respect and affection for Lord Jesus Christ (which we fondly call as Yaso Maseeh or Hazrat Essa) and I believe this is the case with every other Muslim. Any provocative remarks about Hazrat Essa or Jesus Christ are as disturbing to a Muslim as they could be to a Christian. So why would a bunch of people (in the name of freedom for expression) try to play with the emotions of more than a Billion Muslims of the world. If something is considered categorically disturbing to this huge bunch of people then Wikipedia should recognize this fact as well. I don’t say that the article should be removed but as a Wikiholic I can see that the reproduction of these offensive pictures will do no good to the reputation of our favorite Wikipedia. It will just hasten up the unnecessary hate war between Muslims and Christians. My request to you Jimbo, will be to provide a link to these pictures as they are easily available on other controversial pages and try not to contribute in this Clash of Civilizations. The world is a global village now and whether we (as Christians, Muslims, and Jews) like it or not but we cannot compartmentalize ourselves. So that now we have to live together then we have to respect the religious values of each other. ( Nigar 14:23, 4 February 2006 (UTC))
Here are the archives: one | two | three | four | five | six
I think most of you guys don't know what the prophet Mohammed means to Muslims is and how they treat their religion in a holly way probably more than others. You just have to know how Muslims think so you know why they feel that way about cartoons that you might think it's a tiny silly thing. Prophet Mohammed considered as the simple of Islam, I mean the real Islam not Osama Bin Ladin's, They probably doesn't care if a leader of their country was attacked or was humiliated the way the prophet was in the cartoons, It's not about Freedom of speech but it's about stabbing their religion and believes, I do know some Muslims that doesn't mind to pose nude for Newsweek cover; but they for sure doesn't accept those cartoons. Some people were talking about the Arabic version of the article, I want to let them know that it's very similar to the English one except they didn't publish the offensive cartoons; instead they described each one of the 12 cartoons. Radiant 00:37, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The cartoons are giving a wrong stereo type of Muslims plus the freedom of speech rights is not an excuse to humiliate what others believes. Radiant 06:50, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
This encyclopedia, as neutral as it may aim to be, is still, a western country encyclopedia and is not going to censor anything because of some group of people considering it offensive. -- 84.249.252.211 13:55, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Gud bevare freespeech
Wow. Someone draws a cartoon offensive to Muslims and how does the Muslim world respond? Some with peaceful protests, some with violence.
I am a gay man. Many muslim countries (including Saudi Arabia, home of Islam's holiest places) have laws on their books prescribing exactly how I would be executed if I ever decided to visit one of these countries. That's a little more offensive than a cartoon. But are gay men buring down Saudi Arabian embassies? No.
Sir, the reason gays don't burn down embassies is because most embassies are beautifully decorated with satin and greek pillars and most people in there are well-dressed. Don't ever think is it because gays are "good" people!!! Huramath 03:33, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
And you would dare to call us perverted, when you respond to insults with violence? Because love is perverted, but hate is pure? Is that what's really sacred to you? Hatred?
It was distasteful to publish that cartoon. But the violent ones, the ones calling for blood, are even more disasteful. And the fact that Western governments are actually intimidated by the bloodthirsty is even more disasteful. In my eyes, everyone has acted inappropriately. The only ones who have been at all reasonable about this are the Muslims like al-Sistani and the Jordanians, who have stated that violence is unacceptable as a response.
By the way, if you think being negatively caricatured in the papers is offensive, walk a mile in my shoes. I get hit in the face with insults all day every day, just because of who I'm attracted to. I have no patience for people who are so thin skinned and weak that they cannot endure a little criticism. One cartoon. ONE cartoon. Not even two cartoons. Just one page of line drawings, paper and charcoal. That's what you're upset over? I'm upset because according to Sharia, you're supposed to collapse a brick wall over me so the bricks will crush me to death. What the hell right do you have to complain about one crappy cartoon? Wandering Star
I personally know alot of gays in some Islamic countries including Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, Egypt and many others. Radiant 07:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, and how many of them are living in fear for their lives? Wandering Star
The article is not about homosexuality. There was this teenager who told his parents he was gay, so they sent him to this fundamentalist refuge, and he's still there being forced to believe that homosexuality is a mental disorder. I'm a vegetarian, but I haven't been put in a fundamentalist refuge to be force-fed animal products every hour of the day. {{Template:NazismIsntCool/sig}} 12:52, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
There are double standards at work in this controversy. Why should it be illegal for me to use racial slurs in Denmark but not portray cartoons of Islam as a violent religion? If these cartoons had been originally published in the US, there would have been no perception of a double standard because, quite frankly, people are allowed to say or print whatever they want to the extent that it is not intended to incite imminant lawless action. But there are only two fair options. Either eliminate all potentially offensive speech and ideas from public discourse and force everyone to live silent lives or protect nobody from the danger of ideas that are merely offensive, hateful, or insulting. I favor the latter. --
Einhverfr 00:59, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Here in the US, we rely on the Court of Public Opinion alot. That is to say, it's not illegal for you to make an ass out of yourself. But it's not illegal for the rest of us to stand up and call you an ass, either. You could, as you suggest, use racist slurs here. But if you do, I'm well within my rights to tell you to shut the fuck up. You won't go to jail for it, and I'm not forced to like you or help you or do anything for you either. BTW, what do these cartoons have to do with racism? Islam is a faith practiced by people of different racial backgrounds, so to slam it is not to slam a particular race. That's like calling a person who is anti-christian a racist. Wandering Star
Danes will not apologize for insulting a few terrorists, and muslims will not accept that the 12 cartoons where only an intended as an insult to terrorists. DanielDemaret 23:24, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Muslims are fully intitled to their religious belief, but other people are also entitled to diferent beliefs, some worship the devil, some think might even think Muhammad was the devil. If some think he was a saint others are just entitled to think that he was not. Still I don't think it's apropriate to say danes insulted a few terrorists, just because a person might be very religious and muslim doesen't make him a terrorist, same way, over the past years catholics have felt insulted by cartoons, and they are not called terrorists.
Can we find place for the story that an Imam living in Denmark told an arab news channel that the danes would burn the Koran in Copenhagen Saturday. Noone eventually did, but the rumours seem to have been spread all over Middle East. Rasmus (danish Not User) 02:49 February 6th (UTC)
The Western idea of Freedom of Speech evolved over hundreds of years. If piss Christ came out in colonial America, the artist would have swung from a tree. Now in the United States people can protest the funerals of its fallen soldiers without government interaction. Try that in the Middle East. Basically the West has grown calluses to people’s opinions. For the most part peaceful protest has replaced violent reaction.
The internet and mass media have kicked in the front door of the Muslim homes and delivered the Western idea of Free Speech into their homes. This has been an insensitive shock to the Islamic Identity. The reactions to these cartoons, although extreme, could have been predicted. Westerners see this reaction as a weak position. Strong ideal beat weak ideals. Violence beats strong ideals, or at least tries. I see it has a culture that has not (or possibly will not) adapted.
This is a culture shock pure and simple. I understand that Muslims are offended. People DO deny the holocaust everyday. People DO use racist speech everyday. They are wrong, but have the right to do it. The reaction to these situations is more words.-- Thunder 05:17, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry to speak here in English on Wikipedia (how do you pronounce this in arabic?). I'm French and i don't understand the needless radicalism of some people i saw on TV.
France-soir is a very bad paper ! This paper is really worst, they search money and celebrity with idiot provocation... I didn't forget that they were near the bankruptcy two months ago !
France-soir is a paper writed by bastards for bastards, but this DOESNT'T MEAN that French people are bastards too !
So, if someone can tell me - if possible in English, i don't understand arabic (yet - i hope) - what is is sense of these French flags' conflagrations (i have never seen this in my life!) ?
(Systran automatic translator) ... French Lady
Sorry Lady ... I think this Issue has too many sides and sticking to one or two factors is hard to explain it , firstly i wanna assert that every muslim felt insulted and attacked by these pics which are obviously racist and islamophobic . the problem in the pictures are two-sided : firstly they depicts the person of Person Muhammad (PBUH ) which is forbidden in islam to avoid Idolatory and making persons holy by depicting then giving them a holy nature , so it is opposite to what some europeans say , muhammad isn,t God of muslims and he is not with holy nature , he is totally human but preferred by god and so he was chosen as Prophet .
for this reason islam try to limit the depiction of any living thing which is called as aniconism , but still some shiite parties have another understanding and they depict muhammad rarely and commonly Ali .
so the major factor was the insulting nature of the pics for the muslims which all moderate and extremists felt angry and upset >
apart from that feeling of anger , the Expression of anger as street protests hasn,t happened untill the noewegian journal re-publish teh pics again and many trials to take condemnations of the danish journal has failed and the danish goverment declared that it has no right to limit freedom of speech , some muslims say that contradicting with some events happened in Europe when some ppl is charged because anti-semitism or anti-racism .
the Protests happen anyway with approvment from arabic goverments and islamic goverments which don,t represent the ppl's will already to keep away from this anger and to use this anger against international pressure as what happened in syria today .
The anger fromf Westeren Goverments' bias in Israeli-palestenian conflict and iraq invasion and also war against terrosism has been all expressed in these protests by butning flags , and u know when u r in such protest and with such anger u cannot recognize between danish or norwegian or french flag .
The Boycott was also a puplic choice to express their condemnation .
i think the globalization could bring more serious events if we don,t learn how we respect the special cultural and religional differences and if we couldn,t define kind of international rules and law to control such cases .
-- Chaos 10:33, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Mostly the Caricatures in arabic magazines are considered by arabs anti-zionist not anti-semistic , Secondly no one will scream for seeing anti-islamic cartoons if u use just extreme or normal muslim but what is refused is claiming that Muhammad is this reson who is responsible for all terrorism and criminality -- Chaos 15:32, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't have any problems with jews everywhere in the world exept the ones in the occupied Palestine, because they are attacking our religion not our politics, and that's exactly what i feel about those cartoons. I wouldn't make fun of any prophets because simpliy i don't have the right to humiliate others. Radiant 07:06, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, Chaos, problem being you can't limit freedom of speech from religion. PARTICULARLY not when religious figures like the Ayatholla or the Pope insists being political. Furtermore - why do you care what a tiny newspaper, in a tiny predominantly Christian country on an entirely different continent thinks about your prophet? "In Islam it's illegal to draw the prophet"... Well, you can't seriously expect Europe to conform with Islamic law? I'm sure you don't so what it all boils down to is respect. Well, you can't force people to respect you either. There will always be nazis, biggots, fascists, racists, chauvinists, anti-semites, general morons and so on and so forth - the trick is to defeat them with arguments proving you are right. That's the thing about freedom of speech - you can say what you want - and receive due answer from all who disagrees with you. Wiki be With us! WanderingWiki 05:35, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Just after Hitler became chancellor and Hindenberg died, leaving Hitler in a position to assume total control of Germany, the nazis gathered up every work of art they could find that was deemed to be 'dangerous' to the nazi state. The standards they used for determining which were dangerous and which weren't ranged from works that outright challenged the legitimacy of the nazi party to experimental works that challenged the neo-classical models that Hitler was so enamored of. The works were gathered in a warehouse and displayed in a bizzare arrangement intended to be as unflattering as possible to the works and the artists who crafted them. This exhibit was shown in Berlin for a few days under the name ' Entartete Kunst' (degenerate art), shortly before they were destroyed.
Why was Adolph Hitler so terrified of art? For the same reason the USSR was terrified of dissidents. Art is dangerous, because it challenges people to think and to feel. It causes the mind to conceive of new ideas, and leaves the mind free to determine if such ideas should be accepted, rejected, or simply considered. It challenges existing concepts in much the same way. This is why communist governments in Eastern Europe and the USSR demanded that only one form of art was to be allowed, the ' socialist realist' style, which not only did not challenge the concept of state but reinforced it. The Piss Christ, Robert Mapplethorpe, the ballets of Vaslav Nijinsky and rap music are all examples of art that have challenged the West's concept of self. The outrage expressed by those who wished to maintain the status quo is merely fear that others who experience these art forms will reconsider their ideas and maybe even toss them out. If one considers the way things are to be the ideal, the idea that someone could agitiate for change (and do so efectively) scares the shit out of one. Even art that does not make political statements, but which challenges the styles seen as acceptable, (cf, Jackson Pollock, abstract expressionism, Brokeback Mountain) either in content or direction, can be seen as frightening by those who benefit from The Way Things Are, as they create the possibility that if things are different, their benefits will be cut off.
These cartoons are dangerous art. Several Muslim societies fear them, hate them, because they express ideas that challenge the Way Things Are. They are today's Entartete Kunst. In a world where the free expression of ideas has become increasingly regarded as sacred, such art is expressed more freely. The message contained within the cartoons is abominable. But the fact that they exist is not. In fact, the existence of art that challenges the mind is a thing to be celebrated, not reviled. Art is dangerous. But without dangerous art, there is no freedom of thought.
Several postmodern satirists have highlighted the point that -- since no one really knows what Mohammed looked like -- any image could be said to depict him. To that end, they have captioned photos of their thumbs or rudimentary stick figures as "Mohammed."
What if Muhammad actually looked like a set of floating letters that looked like M U H A M M A D or محمد? Haizum 12:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
That's a nice idea. But the point for Muslims is that Mohammed as well as God are not to be pictured. The whole conception of Islam is one of abstraction. So how do you represent an abstract entity? The closest we could get to is the written word (say, Allah or Mohammed -- in any language), which is seen very often in islamic sculptures on sacral monuments. But, of course, this is not directly related to the subject here. -- Cordula's Web 15:22, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I was just posing an ironic hypothetical: If the form of Muhammad isn't known, the possibility exists that it could have been M U H A M M A D in sequence, which would be ironic because of all the Muslims threatening violence (and acting upon it) for depicting Muhammad; they would then need to cut their own heads off and burn their own diplomatic structures. Haizum 17:00, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Different civilizations are facing each other, violence and insaulting are increasing step by step. After the publishing of the muhammad cartoons in several newspapers and after torching embassies and General Consulates in Damaskus and Beirut it is time to stop and to start thinking.
Many people have to learn a lot more about different religions and about different societies and their values. If we understand more of each other and if we start talking seriously to each other we can reach a peaceful living whith each other. Maybe that's the only way.
Let's find a platform where we can talk to each other, where we can learn more about each other and find a way to live together satisfied and in peace on this small planet.
Because I don't think this is the right place for a very general discussion about the whole issue, I have created a new yahoo group "It's time to talk". Everybody is invited to join and to help understanding each other a little bit better. If we start talking to each other instead of insaulting and fighting we will be all the winner. If not, we are all lost.
Please join the group and start spreading the information, start other groups, and other efforts to stop any kind of violence and insaulting.
Thank you very much. -- NilsB 18:25, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
It's time to reconsider. The proposition is for Wikipedia to permanently archive the Muhammad cartoons and make them freely distributable in perpetuity. I beg you to reconsider this. Please don't put Wikipedians in harm's way, the way Denmark put Danes in harm's way. The Danes are getting royally spanked for being associated with Jyllands-Posten, who timed their publication of these cartoons with the first day of Ramadan. Now the Danes are unable to do anything about their burned down buildings except solicit letters of sympathy from other countries. They don't dare wear their own flag now on their military uniforms. And nobody can adequately shield them from more consequences to come. Why put Wikipedia through the same stress? Instead of claiming freedom of the press and rubbing people's noses in it, why not say we are not showing the cartoons out of respect for Islam? What's not to love? 12.16.126.34 20:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I thoughouly agree, people are seriously angry about this, not even so much because someone would draw these things, but because newspapers are so blatantly recirculating them now that the muslem community has voiced their complaints about it. The article itself describes the images well enough, and out of respect for the Islamic community (and I mean respect, not fear, as the previous poster suggests) the images should be removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.211.145.240 ( talk • contribs) .
I'd just like to point out that the response by Muslims everywhere, pretty much has proved the point of the original cartoon that Islam is a religion of terror anyway. Burning embassies, attacking anyone European. How can they be outraged when what the Danish newspaper has said is entirely accurate?
I like all these Muslims in the UK going around saying "Europe is going to get a 9/11" and "Bin Laden will destroy Europe". Why don't they just piss off out of our country then, and live somewhere else. What complete hypocrites they are. Agent Blightsoot 16:11, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
1) someone draws a cartoon, claiming that you are excessively violent. 2) you protest this cartoon by becoming excessively violent. 3) Maybe they're on to something here..........
Two wrongs definitely do not make a right.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.139.254.170 ( talk • contribs) .
You ment religious cartoons Radiant 06:46, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Radiant, I have noticed from my amateur studies of world history that religion and politics are often so entertwined that it's practically impossible to determine where one begins and the other ends. Take the current War on Terrorism. How much of it is political? How much of it is religious? Or the whole matter of Israel. Is the Israeli-Arab conflict relious or political? Looking backward, was the Caliphate political or religious? Or the Vatican? Or the Byzantine Empire? Is there any matter which exists that is purely religious with no political undertones, or purely political with no religious ones? Even political entities that have loudly claimed they are atheistic have established personality cults that function as de facto religions.To refer to the two concepts as distinct is like concieving of the mind as a separate entity from the body. All's well and good until you study the brain, and then it gets fuzzy, doesn't it? 67.50.32.67
Haha, Pwnd! YHBT!
I'm not Islamic, but I don't think the cartoons should've been published. If the Muslims are going to burn down diplomatic buildings over a few cartoons, a good way to keep them quiet is to wrap some pork in a Danish flag and send it to a mosque. {{Template:NazismIsntCool/sig}} 13:03, 7 February 2006 (UTC) PS: Don't do it unless you want a fatwa issued against you.
This whole deal is out of control. These people, and more precisely their religious leaders, are using a minor incident to push people toward mass protests and violence. One cartoon in Europe showing some religion figure in a satire is hardly more than a minor incident. Yet the muslim leaders act all outraged, completely forgetting the fact that while it may be illegal to do that in muslim countries, it is perfectly legal in Europe. Furthermore, these same muslim countries display anti christian and anti Israel pictures in their own newspapers and media ON A WEEKLY BASIS, then act all outraged about this one cartoon? Complete utter hypocrisy. It was never about the cartoon, it's about special interest, some fanatic leaders wanting more violence and less coverage about what goes on in their own communities. Elfguy 16:33, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, personally I think thats obvious to everyone in the Western world. I mean its hard to have a NPOV when you have on one side violent protests and burning embassies, and on the other... A CARTOON! ChaosEmerald
Different civilizations are facing each other, violence and insaulting are increasing step by step. After the publishing of the muhammad cartoons in several newspapers and after torching embassies and General Consulates in Damaskus and Beirut it is time to stop and to start thinking.
Many people have to learn a lot more about different religions and about different societies and their values. If we understand more of each other and if we start talking seriously to each other we can reach a peaceful living whith each other. Maybe that's the only way.
Let's find a platform where we can talk to each other, where we can learn more about each other and find a way to live together satisfied and in peace on this small planet.
Because I don't think this is the right place for a very general discussion about the whole issue, I have created a new yahoo group "It's time to talk". Everybody is invited to join and to help understanding each other a little bit better. If we start talking to each other instead of insaulting and fighting we will be all the winner. If not, we are all lost.
Please join the group and start spreading the information, start other groups, and other efforts to stop any kind of violence and insaulting.
Thank you very much. -- NilsB 18:25, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
First of all, I denounce the cartoon as racist. I agree with the other cartoon in the main article saying if the target were Blacks or Jews, there would be a different argument regarding free speech. I'm all for free speech if it doesn't incite hatred. It seems to me that the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons do incite that kind of hatred and we should take a stance against it.
-- Ian.desouza 20:01, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
being islamic does not make you a specific race, so the cartoons are hardly racist, they might be depicted as anti religious, or islamic, but nothing about it has to deal with race. they are a satire that in my opinion many middle easterners have blown out of proportion. burning buildings down over a cartoon is never justified. and there are jokes about Blacks and jews all the time, ever watch South park, family guy, or just about anything on comedy central. Middle easterners claim theyre mad because it depicts all of them as terrorist stereotypes. well theyre not helping their image by burning down embassies, burning flags, and doing actions that result in peoples death. -- Barcode 21:47, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
How puzzling... "Racist"? Just how...Exactly how are these cartoons "racist"? What is " Racism" such cartoons decrying Islamicist violence by using caricatures of the Prophet of Islam, "racist"?
To be similar, a series of cartoons targeting "Blacks" or Jews would have to be decrying some sort of violent and murderous acts against others using depictions of a universally lauded religious authority within that community. So...let's try a thought experiment... Let's imagine a set of cartoons of Moses overseeing slaughter of Palestinians, putting up the Wall, etc. Is that "racist"? Would Jews (undoubtably offended) do what Muslims are doing? It seems to me that while some Jews might be that reactionary, we wouldn't have mass demonstrations like we're seeing now.
Another thought experiment... I'm not sure that I can make a plausible one regarding what you call "Blacks"... Perhaps a "Black" Jesus bashing gays and lesbians? Whatever... I still don't think it would go to this wildly rabid state... And I think that we would understand the intent and complexity of the cartoon rather that simply interpreting it as "Offensive" and "Racist" because it ostensively offends some group.
All of this being said... It is perhaps rash of anyone to do anything that might "offend" Muslims these days. If you stick your stick in a wasp nest...if you poke at a sleeping bear...You shouldn't be surprised if you get hurt. Emyth 21:46, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Emyth: I think a better comparison would be a caricature of a cannnibal witch doctor in a discussion about Africa. Yes, you can argue that it is just a parody of religious beliefs but in the context the association of belief and race is so close that it is easily understood otherwise.
198.54.202.18 23:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I think talking of 'the cartoons' is too general. The bomb-turban one does seem to me rather unpleasant - it may not have been meant that way but it can easily be understood as a modern version of, say, a corrupt Jewish money-lender. If it wasn't meant in that way, it is too vague to be effective.
The virgins one, on the other hand, is excellent - a funny skewering of religious fanaticism, and several others seem quite innocuous to me.
198.54.202.18 22:58, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
MOOSLAMS ARE NOT A RACE! END OF STORY! THERE IS NO RASCISM HERE UNLESS YOUR TINY LITTLE LEFTIST BRAINS ARE CREATING IT FROM YOU OWN IMAGINATIONS!
First of all I denounce your momma as a ho...
I'd Just like to point out that the people who are screaming "RACIST" "INFIDEL" and assorted variations on "YOU INSULT THE PROPHET SO WE'RE GOING TO BLOW YOU ALL TO HELL" are right of centre. The Leftists, like myeslf are saying that we, as humans are entitled to say what we feel. If it offends you then don't read the bloody cartoon!
Muslims should be the absolutely last people to accuse others of racism.
Only one paper has published the images so far but there is a debate on whether or not they should be. An Islamic leader in Melbourne has requested the Australian media to not publish them. Here is a quote from a journalist in the Sydney Morning Herald which I think sums up the pro argument rather well:
"I accept that to the genuine believer, there can only be one truth and in a pluralist democracy you must be free to proclaim it and to seek willing converts. But others must be free to debate and even disparage your beliefs.
It is simply not enough to declare your faith to be holy and inviolate and therefore off limits to criticism, however puerile the criticism might be. Anyway, if your beliefs are firmly and sincerely held, and if they are a divine revelation from God, surely they will not be shaken by a cartoon? And God will certainly not need protection from those you consider infidels." 1
SilentC 22:43, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I think it is fairly obvious that the western civilizations are superior to those in the Middle East. simple fact: We have freedom of speech and freeedom of the press and they stone people. They stone married women who are raped.
So far, there's been two "It's Time to Talk" posts and one "It's Time to Reconsider" post. Yaaawwwwnnn. So boring. Let's come up with a new title, okay? Something more original, and less cliche.
It's time to reconsider. The proposition is for Wikipedia to permanently archive the Muhammad cartoons and make them freely distributable in perpetuity. I beg you to reconsider this. Please don't put Wikipedians in harm's way, the way Denmark put Danes in harm's way. The Danes are getting royally spanked for being associated with Jyllands-Posten, who timed their publication of these cartoons with the first day of Ramadan. Now the Danes are unable to do anything about their burned down buildings except solicit letters of sympathy from other countries. They don't dare wear their own flag now on their military uniforms. And nobody can adequately shield them from more consequences to come. Why put Wikipedia through the same stress? Instead of claiming freedom of the press and rubbing people's noses in it, why not say we are not showing the cartoons out of respect for Islam? What's not to love? 12.16.126.34 21:20, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Now that I got that out of my system, let's talk about Wikipedia. Wikipedia is a repository of information, the internet in microcosm. The content is dependent upon a system of principles, including the NPOV nature of the commentary made on the pieces displayed here. It records history in as objective a light as possible, guided by the users who edit the information and the founders. The content is not, however, judged acceptable or unnacceptable merely because a group with an axe to grind states that they disapprove. Wikipedia does not attempt to rewrite history to appease an angry mob. Wikipedia merely records history and preserves a record of it for posterity. It is guided by a desire to understand the universe, not agitate for any one political or religious viewpoint. Therefore, it would be contrary to the very nature of Wikipedia to remove the controversial piece recorded here, just as it would be to remove the image of the piss christ. Oh, and one more time: Go Denmark! Luv ya, babes! Smooch! Big wet sloppy kisses from America! If I see a 'imported from Denmark' label on something and I can afford it, I'll buy it.
Will somebody please move this to "Arguments" where it belongs?-- Jbull 21:43, 7 February 2006 (UTC) -- No -- Junathans 20:05, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
so why are we even entertaining the propagandist view that some how anti-terrorist cartoons qualify as "rascism" Call me ishal dummy 23:36, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Primarily because the majority portion of the modern civilized world acknowledges that racism is moral evil. Label something as racist, and you are basically saying that it is evil. It's similair to the way people compare people they dislike to Hitler. Hitler is acknowledged practically everywhere as evil; therefore, call anyone you think is evil Hitler. Doing this has it's disadvantages, which are often unfortunately overlooked. Just as comparing anyone you don't like to the nazis diminishes the horror of what the nazis did (think about it. Your boss may indeed be a tyrannical dickhead. But she hasn't killed 7 million people. She's not a fucking nazi.) by equating whatever petty grievance you have to the holocaust, comparing a cartoon which makes political commentary on the recent behaviour of a group of religious fundamentalists (did the political cartoons regarding the Branch Davidians or Jonestown strike you as racist?) to racism, you are equating something you dislike to something horrible. In attempting to make the thing you dislike seem horrible, you merely succeed in making the horrible seem merely disagreeable.
This is ridiculous. If non-Muslims are also required not to disgrace Islamic traditions then technically every signal Woman in the world should adhere to the Hijab, and we’ve have no pornography.— Preceding unsigned comment added by greasysteve13 ( talk • contribs)
There are far more non-Muslim internet users in the world than Muslim ones (the former having pluntered the latter over hundreds of years of colonialism and post-colonialism and having superior technology). The articles here are biased in favour or secularism. I would urge everybody to read Nadeem Azam's article How the West is Killing Voltaire.
The issues surrounding free speech and censorship have been debated for centuries, although mainly in societies in which such a notion is accepted. Therefore, for example, in the US, in the Supreme Court and elsewhere, many useful and relevant principles have been elucidated. Some of these are highly pertinent to the Jyllands-Posten controversy, both in general, and in the Wikipedia context.
Those who are not from the US or not of western cultural valules should make no mistake here: Do not jump to the conclusion that any person from the US has no sensibilities and cannot be offended. There are many publically accesiible exhibitions, works of art, books (both fiction and nonfiction) as well as matters of criticism and opinion, that many US citizens have found to be highly offensive or even unethical, but which have circulated anyway. Examples abound in art that has depicted Christian icons and holy images in disregard, ridicule, or even filty contexts. I will not attempt a reference list here. In addition, ideas and activities that are strictly forbidden by major religous groups are publlically advertised in the US. Examples are found in commerical adverisement for abortion, or the open promotion of homoesxuality as an accepted alternative lifestyle.
Anericans have come to a relatively stable arrangement regarding these clashes of personally-held values with public discourse and open publication of ideas. I believe that the basic principles can be summarized by these two:
1) If something offends you, whether it be an idea, or an image, or a written page, or a TV program, then you can and should choose to not expose yourself to it. Turn the page, do not but the newspaper, do not attend the stage production, stay way from the museum -- if these media are purveying the content that you find revolting.
The above notion allows us to protect ourselves from offense, provided that the society (government) protects people from a forced exposure -- and this is not too difficult, as in general there are choices. People are not forced to go to see the offensive art exhibit. But what if somehow the offensive material is thrust upon us anyway? This leads to the second guideline:
2) Things that are blatantly offensive and that have no other purpose should in fact be limited by society. There can be age limitations, warning signs, or prohibitions agaist wide circulation by mass media. The government has a delicate role here, because something can be outright banned or, more likely, strongly discouraged, only if it has no "socially redeeming value" or no "legiotimate purpose" other than to produce offense.
Let us analyze the Jyllands-Posten ruckus in these perspectves. First, we can appreciate that Muslims, especially strict Muslims, maye take offense at forbidden depiction. These people should not buy or read such newspapers, or provide viewers to TV stations that show material offensive to them. In places where there are many Muslims, this can be a powerful economic push towards respecting these values. But that is a secondary effect, the primary one is that the individual avoids being offended, while those who are no so offended have access to the information, or art, or criticism that they wish to see. In this regard one must wonder how the masses of people in Afganistan came to have such awareness of what is being published in a Danish newspaper. This seems to be the opposite effect -- people are seeking out, or being provided with, that which offends them, even if in the normal course of events they would have no possibility of exposure to the offending material.
In the opinion of many, and of this author, at least sdome of the 12 cartoons published by Jyllands-Posten had some conceivable purpose, especially in the context of the story about the childern's book author who could finds no illustrators. However the supplementary three images - the pig picture, and the dog picture especially, strike me as not only purely offensive and without purpose, but also out-of-place. It is not diffficult to imagine that some one with a political purpose added these to the "portfolio", and I have seen no evidence that those pictures were ever intended to be included with the 12 in the Jylands-Posten collection. It is not the present purpose to analyze the clearly manipulative purposes in promoting this disgustingly "augmented" collection anti-Western propaganda, althoug that seems to be surely the case. However, I believe that many people would find the supplementary three pictures to warrant condemnation as inflammatory and intrinsically offensive. Still, I believe that most societies would not place an outright legal ban on the publication of such pictures. Instead, it could permit them to be regarded as "hate speech" or "obscenity" and thereby make it too risky from the perspective of most media outlets to widely publicise them.
In the ways outlined above a free society and its citizens can permit free speech while also protecting people from constant exposure to blatantly offensive material. The Danes would not have published the pig and dog pictures in a major newspaper. Likewise, religious Muslims may well want to decide to stop buying that newspaper just on the basis of the 12 that were published. But I cannot imagine that any thinking person could view the Paris Soir front-page cartoon as intrinsically offensive, even if some reasonable Muslims might choose to not but that day's issue because of a technical violation of a Muslim tradition.
Including any material in Wikpedia that might be offenmsive to some should be done carefully, with appropriate labels and warnings. But material shuld not be excluded only because it offends some people, provided that those people have the ability to avoid seeing it.
88.38.89.137 22:41, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
The argument that everyone should see the cartoons which the debate is about is meaningless. To have all those cartoons is pointless. Because: A Westerner will hardly find anything wrong with the cartoons, on the other hand, a Muslim will be ofended and feel insulted with them. The verbal discriptioon of the case much more important and strong in this case. The cartoons should be taken from the article or at least only one of them (artist drawing picture cartoon) should be kept! Resid Gulerdem 21:47, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Sigh......Not again.. Varga Mila 22:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry but your argument looks to be completely irrelevant to me. Is it hard for you to see this: This article is not explanation of the cartoons, it is about the controversy caused by them. A Westerner cannot understand the controversy by looking at the cartoons, neither a Muslim. There should be a fair acoount of what has happened in the article instead... The article is touching quite many topics and there is no need for -at least all- these pictures. Please answer this point if you want to respond... Resid Gulerdem 23:56, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Resid, there are 3 points here:
1) "A verbal description would work better to that end". Absolutely NOT. The most objective, NPV, philosophically and politically untainted description of the cartoons is provided by...: the cartoons.
2) "Some people feel insulted.." This has been discussed extensively. Do respect the time and energy devouted by people presenting arguments supporting as well as disagreeing with your point of view, and consult the archive.
3) "One can easily find them and in fact everybody has already seen them". Firstly, save the herostratic cartoon of a man with a bomb in his turban, they are NOT readily available. Secondly, and most importantly, I am quite sure that many will agree that a major contributor to much of the unrest is that in fact NOT everybody has already seen the cartoons, but in stead received those illustrious verbal descriptions of them.
The violent unrest is not in Europe. It is in countries in which access to the cartoons is extremely limited. Varga Mila 00:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I think you misunderstand the consequence of my argument. There seems to be a (albeit possibly superficial, but nonetheless) negative correlation between access to the cartoons and violent unrest Varga Mila 00:41, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
4) "A Westerner can see the cartoons but still may not understand the dispute". Many Westerners DO understand the dispute, but do consider the freedom of speech a central tenet to a Western democracy. Freedom of speech includes the right to choose not to be in nice, or in agreement with others (i.e. the majority/the powerful etc.). Varga Mila 23:54, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Freedom of speech? Right to choose not be in agreement with others? Consult your suggestion to me in your argument (2). What a contradiction! Resid Gulerdem 00:07, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Resid, you are quite free to voice your opinion here (no one will demand that you be prosecuted therefore - or indeed worse). I am simply saying that if you consult the archives, you can (re-) read page after page presenting the exact same argument, as you do here. And the responses thereto. Varga Mila 00:27, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
An ensiklopedia should has some standarts. Among them, there is no room for an insult in an article! You can practise your rights to choose not to be nice to people in your daily life... Resid Gulerdem 00:07, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes it should. A cartoon (less provocative - artist drawing cartoon) would give enough information about the cartoons. Other information which is this article is about has nothing to to with seeing the cartoons... Resid Gulerdem 00:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I know that you are against antisemitism. You were quite suprised to learn that we carry such pictures. Sympathy is irrelevant and, yes, pictures that show Jews as blood thirsty vampires and fat bankers crashing the world with their feet do insult my values. While Israelis are not all Jewish (actually less than 80%) and Jews mostly not Israelis, pictures of the impacts of Israeli warfare and the wall are known to create harsh reactions against Jews in general, including physical attacks. I also vote to keep such pictures in. Pictures of Abraham, Moses and God too if they are relevant. I also encourage you to do a professional job as a Wikipedia editor and think about which information is important for us as an encyclopedia to provide. gidonb 00:50, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
There have been a number of pro-Muslim posts arguing that a cartoon depiction slamming Judaism would be felt as more offensive than one slamming Islam in the West. It's curious you folks would choose Judaism as your target. You see, the vast majority of the West is not Jewish, but christian. Had you asked, "would a cartoon making fun of jesus have been offensive to you?", I would say that you were merely looking for an icon as sacred to the western mind as mohammad is to the eastern mind. But for some reason, you won't use that icon, will you? You keep attacking the Jews, instead. Maybe this is a parapraxis on your part. Maybe it just underlines your fundamental hatred of Jewish people. Your Freudian Slip is showing, dearie. You should cover that up before anyone sees it.
Rasid, I understand that this is very offensive to many Muslims (mostly Sunni as Shiites have been more tolerant of pictures of Mohammed). But there are a few points I think should be made.
1) I think that access to the pictures is important. Whether or not they are prominantly displayed or you have a (click here for the cartoons) links. There are aspects of the cartoons for which the verbal descriptions simply are not adequate. Yet, for those of us who don't speak Danish, Arabic, and Farsee the descriptions are also important. I would not favor merely removing them under any circumstances.
2) I don't think the rage is just about the cartoons. I think a big part of it is ageneral frustration against the West and a sense that they are being the victim of cultural colonialism. Thus publication or not of the cartoons is unlikely to be an issue.
3) I do not think that dialog is furthered by suggesting that nothing that anyone finds merely insulting can be barred from the encyclopedia. If you wish to suggest this, I would ask you to discuss concrete harms of putting it there. Certainly in this context, I don't think that it incites hatred of Muslims.-- 206.130.134.147 23:20, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
If I can throw my two cents into the conversation. I'm an American, a Christian, and while I'm not personally insulted by the cartoons because they're not targeting me, I am upset and disappointed that they were published in the first place.
I mean, honestly, who could possibly have said in the paper's editorial meeting, "Let's go ahead and put these comics in our paper because no one will be offended by them?" Clearly, the paper intended to offend people and spark controversy, and there's even an argument to be made that the paper is guilty of incitement to riot.
The editors knew it was going to piss a bunch of people off, and they knew that there are dangerous Islamic extremists that would use the comics as an excuse to blow things up and kill people. And the people who were thinking about becoming terrorists, but were sitting on the fence, might very well have decided to become terrorists as a result of a Western newspaper severely insulting the Prophet Muhammad, the most revered figure in Islam short of Allah Himself.
And even those Muslims who aren't terrorists, and have no intention of becoming terrorists, are still angry about this and seeing it as yet another example of Western values being forced upon the non-Western world, or religious intolerance.
There was simply no good outcome that could possibly have come from the publication of the pictures. Sure, the paper might be counting the few extra krones in their pockets from people buying the paper to see what the fuss is about. And maybe they're enjoying the exposure of having the paper's name in mass media all over the world (figuring that "any publicity is good publicity"). But the paper has exposed its own employees to danger. The paper's headquarters have been the target of several bomb threats, and if you think that there aren't terrorists out there that are anxiously awaiting getting a shot at the cartoonists, you're probably naive.
I'm not saying the terrorists are justified in taking such an action, and I don't believe that anything should be the catalyst for anyone to say, "I'm so angry that I'm going to kill people I don't know and burn buildings in protest", but, really, Jyllands-Posten should've known better!
I'm a supporter of free speech, and I support the right to provoke controversy if it's used to raise the level of debate. But controversy for its own sake, or for the sake of selling a few extra newspapers-- particularly when it's this controversial-- is stupid and wrong. There was absolutely no good outcome that could have resulted from the publication of these comics.
However-- I believe Wikipedia has an obligation to show these pictures, because it is first and foremost a site that is designed to educate and inform. Someone might ask, "What's all the fuss about?" and that person deserves to see the source of the controversy. People are killing each other over this thing! Nothing could possibly justify that, just as it would be equally wrong for an extremist Christian group to bomb a building over Piss Christ.
I'm grateful, in any event, that the images are low-resolution and you can't make out some of the details on some of the comics. There's a thin line here between the need to inform and the need not to cause further insult to Muslims. If someone can't make out all the details and wants to see close-ups, though, they can find them for themselves-- I'm sure they're readily available somewhere, as I've seen high-res shots of them myself.
And, by the way, when I saw the pictures, I shook my head sadly and said, "What in the world inspired someone to publish this?!" I'm not offended on my own behalf but I'm offended on behalf of the Muslims I've met in my life, most of whom are kind, good-hearted and decent people. And I'm offended on behalf of 1.5 billion people, most of whom I've never met but most of whom are not terrorists.
Even if these cartoons had not inspired people to riot and kill, they would still have been a monumentally offensive and stupid idea. I believe that people should have the right to practice whatever religion they wish to practice, and do so without being mocked or offended by people who disagree with what they believe.
So, with all due respect, Resid, you're wrong when you say "a Westerner will hardly find anything wrong with the cartoons." I do, and I'd go so far as to say that many do. I find anything that discriminates against people on the basis of religion, race, gender, sexual orientation or anything else, offensive. I find discrimination itself to be offensive. And, again with all due respect, by saying "a Westerner won't find anything wrong with the cartoons", you're generalizing and, no doubt inadvertently, discriminating too.
I'm not upset with what you said, though, because I'm pretty sure you didn't mean it like that. I just want you to understand that not all Westerners are culturally insensitive, and that not all Westerners want to impose their values on other people. ekedolphin 11:05, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
MyPOV: I would be personally insulted if I had not been allowed to see the cartoons. I would interpret it as implying that I was so mentally retarded that could not be permitted to make my own interpretation of the cartoons. I do not think I am alone in this. So whether the cartoons stay or go, someone is going to be insulted. DanielDemaret 19:54, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
If newspaper editors refuse to print matter on the sole basis that someone, somewhere, could possibly be offended by what is being said, then almost nothing of value would ever be printed. Go pick up a copy of the TV Guide if you want intellectually dead writing devoid of social commentary, purposefully bland and careful not to offend material. No, wait! TV Guide might offend-remember, Amish people don't watch television. We can't have any depictions of television in the press. Okay, what about USA Today? That's a pretty bland paper. Oh, shit! USA Today has articles about current events. Those are always controversial. Okay, okay. I guess we'll have to stick to kids' publications like Sesame Street. No, wait! One of the characters on the television show died. We can't mention death. THat might offend!
Oh, fuck. Looks like no matter what we print, it'll offend somebody, won't it? Might as well just not print anything at all. Let's all go back to the middle ages, and just forget about reading and writing altogether. We'll let the church and the state determine what we should think. Oh, shit! I forgot. There were crusades in the middle ages, and progroms against Jewish people. That's really offensive. Well, I guess we can't rely on church and state to tell us what to think. Wow. Maybe we should just stop thinking altogether. Let's become a nation of couch potatoes, who can't keep a single thought in our heads other than "Where's the next bag of Doritos coming from" and "I sure would like to fuck Paris Hilton".
Dammit! We're already there!
Moved from Talk:Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy joturner 20:47, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
If that's actually true, it says a lot about the utter lunacy of this whole issue. Dozens of people are getting killed ... over cartoons?! Good God let it go already! Here in the USA we have honest-to-God Neo-Nazi marches, a lot worse than cartoons, and no one dies. Ah well, different cultures, different values on human life and free speech ... -- Cyde Weys 20:38, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
A usual Europian hypocrisy again!... The people there cannot say what they believe. David Irving charged for saying that 'there actually was no holocaust'. Now where is the 'freedom of speech' for Mr. Irving? Can an editor incorporate this into the article?
Isn't this a two-facedness and double standard? As a person who believe that holocaust has, unfortunately, happened, I still believe that anyone who think the Jewish arguments are not strong, should be able to say it. The dilemma is, people there charging DI for telling his ideas that hurt Jews, but backing up the ones who hurt Muslim's feelings... Resid Gulerdem 23:20, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
First of all, when you say Jew, you actually mean his/her religion first. Their nation based on their religion, and without the religion they couldn't survive. So recial vs religious hate speeches doesn't make sense. I do not want to discuss why this seperation is so meaningless at all... I can see that you are missing the main idea here: The point is not laws or regulations against racial or religious hate speeches, it is about the freedom of speech wheather it is related to this or that thing. Resid Gulerdem 00:51, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Resid, I am understanding of where you are coming from. I'm sorry that you feel offended by the cartoons, and I apologize if I was being an ass to you and others when this story first broke.
That being said, I believe your comments on the talk page of the artice were misguided. Wikipedia isn't about offending or pleasing anybody, it is about documenting the truth of the world to the best of our knowledge and abilities. It is a country that is being hypocritical by charging holocaust deniers, not our community of internet "junkies", if you will. In fact, as it has been stated on said talk page, Wikipedia has a picture of the most (in)famous book on holocaust denial, and not only that, but provides a link to the full text of said book.
Just like you ask us not to blame the entire Muslim community for the violent actions of a few, we ask you not to blame every Westerner on here or elsewhere for the actions of one country's judicial system.
I ask you (and all Wikipedians) to take a deep breath, and remember that above all, understanding and truth leads to peace. And that is the true message whether you call Him Allah, God, Jehovah, Buddah, etc.
Yours in the quest for the ultimate truth,
- Maverick 01:36, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't the talk page be for discussing the article, not expressing views about the cartoon? Andjam 02:01, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
isn't it Myth that Jews are Race ? upon which scientific base u depend when u claim that jews are race ??? how could u collect European jews and Ethiopian or Yemen jews in one race ... I wonder how could u believe a stupid lie like this -- Chaos 15:37, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Any rational person should be able to see the difference between the inherent evil in the systematic and planned executions of 4-6 million persons... and an editorial cartoon. Thats just common sense.
69.156.153.124 18:16, 25 February 2006 (UTC)CanadianPhaedrus
The Prophet Mohammad cartoon controversy was protrayed as a fight for free speech and freedom of press by many people. Now where is the "free speech and freedom of press" when it comes to other controversal issue as "denial of holocaust". One religious belief of prohibition against images is ridiculed while the heresy of "denial of holocaust" results in prison sentence. These events really displays the different perceptions of sacred and profane in different cultures and people.
Siddiqui 04:43, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Siddiqui, as I mentioned to Resid above, you too shoud know that WikiPedia is not censored when it comes to Holocaust denial, even going so far as to provide links to sites that claim the Holocaust didn't occur. With that in mind, was there anything of an editorial nature regarding Wikipedia's Muhammad cartoons controvery article that you wanted to discuss? Netscott 06:13, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Now, where is the beloved freedom of press now? Why dont you also call Australia [sic] for enemies of the freedom of speech? Is it since they aren't Muslims?
Get the name David Irving in this article, i dont really care how, just it is in a notable place, and that it shows how people connect this two events.-- Striver 12:47, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
David irving makes me want to vomit. I detest the man, if you could call him that. He is an apologist for a regime that murdered and tortured millions of innocents, some of whom were my relatives. The man he admires destroyed the country my ancestors came from and forced my grandparents to flee to the US.
One of the more repulsive aspects of the regime David Irving so strongly advocates for was it's capacity to jail people for saying things it felt endangered the state. Much like what Austria did when it jailed David Irving.
Which is why saying that I disagree with his having been jailed makes me sick to my stomach. But to do otherwise would make me sick to my soul. Just as the cartoonists, the Danes, and the West cannot be held liable for having expressed free speech, it is hypocrisy to deny monsters even as foul as David Irving the right to do likewise.
If I met David Irving in person, I would punch him in the face before even saying hello. But I cannot condone having him imprisoned.
Set him free, and then let's all line up to tell him what we think of him.
Wandering Star 23:50, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Can anybody help me understand the difference between the resluts of this poll and Poll 1 for this article? What is the rationale behind the results? Please review the comments before answering... Resid Gulerdem 06:00, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
One is a graphic picture of a man distending his own anus and the other is a cartoon. It's like night and day. -- Cyde Weys 06:15, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
P: 'I wish you could make some comments about this specific point which was core of my question.' C: Your core question was to explain the difference in the polls. I commented on that above. If the comment was not enough, then please make a more specific question, and I shall answer.
P: 'The article has the description of the cartoons already, which is more important in my opinion. As I said before, a Westerner may not see the reason behind the dispute by just looking at the cartoons, because of the cultural difference.' C: Both description and picture are necessary. If I had a free hand, I would also include a myriad of alternative interpretations from different sources, but then there would not be room for anything else on the server. I, just like Descartes, and I suspect many others, need to see the picture in front of me. I no longer have the kind of imagination of my childhood where I could picture an image in my head just by someone saying “it is a picture of a man”, and automatically determine if the man is an insult to me.
P: 'Being more or less contraversial, supporting the freedom of speech looks to be subjective to me ' C: Are you saying that freedom of speech is controversial?
Q: 'Are we having the article in this form to support freedom of speech?' A: There is no need for that. We are not having this article in support of free speech. Wikipedia supports freedom of speech simply by being an encyclopaedia, since it wants to give this knowledge to all. It is however, one of the reasons that make the cartoons interesting, and the goatse uninteresting.
Q:'I was thinking that an article should be based on facts not on if we want to support this or that!' A: Are you saying that we should not support freedom of speech and still show the facts? I am afraid that is a logically impossible. The intent in the idiom to "show the facts" already includes the intent of supporting "freedom of speech".
Q: 'Is there a double standard on this issue?'
A: By me, right here, there is no double standard. I support showing the facts, that is, I support freedom of speech. Your suggestion is to remove the Mohammed cartoons. I e, your suggestion is clearly that we do not show the facts. However, there seem to be those in wikipedia who would apply double standards. There are, for example, those here who want the cartoons to be seen, since they are not offended by them, and at the same time, want to hide the goatse-pictures since they think that they are grotesque. With such people, you have indeed found a double standard. But not with me, since I don't care about whether the goatse pictures are shown or not per se. It does not matter in the slightest to me whether they are grotesque or not. The only issue to me is whether the pictures add some info to the article. Since I am not interested in goatse (I have seen a lot worse), I have not voted there.
DanielDemaret 23:17, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Resid, now that I have read this comment from Babajobu, I confirm that, as he confesses, and as I mentioned in the last paragraph of mine above, you are correct in assuming that some people apparently have a double standard. Perhaps they are even in majority, and your accusation would be totally correct against them. I also object to this double standard. I am all the way with you on that point! DanielDemaret 23:41, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Who the hell deleted the vast majority of my comments from this thread? And why? Yes, I'm using bold. Haizum 00:53, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
See: History
Does anyone even know what they look like like?-- 143.92.1.33 06:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
What a mess!! Dozens of warning templates, fork pages, contless archives, it looks like Catrina paid a visit here! Can't something be done to bring this talk page up to a less cluttered appearence? Loom91 11:58, 19 March 2006 (UTC)