This page was created as part of the mediation process for the Sathya Sai Baba and related articles. The page is specifically devoted to discussion of the use of Nagel as a source per Wikipedia policy on Verifiable Sources
Alexandra Nagel was the author of an article De Sai Paradox: Tegenstrijdigheden van en rondom Sathya Sai Baba/The Sai Paradox:contradictions of and surrounding Sathya Sai Baba from the series Religieuze bewegingen in Nederland/Religious movements in the Netherlands nr. 29 Sekten/Cults/Sects, published by the Free University of Amsterdam, 1994, ISBN 9053833412. The article was published in the Dutch only.
The Free University of Amsterdam advertises that its "origins are rooted in the Christian faith" and that "it still retains its tradition of Christian standards and values."
Since 1994 Nagel has written several other articles, A guru accused and Sai Baba as Shiva-Shakti: a Created Myth? Or?, in English which have not been published in reputable journals, but which are available on the internet. Andries reports that the articles A guru accused and Sai Baba as Shiva-Shakti: a Created Myth? Or? shares both similarities with and differences from her 1994 article. Among the differences, the 1994 article contains information specific to the Netherlands, not mentioned in the other articles, and 1994 article treated only allegations of inappropriate sexual approaches to Tal Brooke and Keith Ord while here later articles also report upon other allegations of sexual misconduct.
I have rewritten the factual account again. The account in this section is intended as a reference point for discussions. It does not address policy (or guideline) issues. Please indicate whether you think this account is fair and factual below. Agreement with this account does not imply agreement on any policy issues, nor does it imply consent to any content within any Wikipedia article. Please discuss policy questions and non-factual issues elsewhere.
BostonMA, now you can see the problem here. The truth has finally come out. I will refer to the following articles as:
"De Sai Paradox" = Ref1
"Sai Baba - from avatar to homo-pedophile" = Ref2
"A Guru Accused" = A
"Shiva Shakti: A Created Myth? Or?" = B
"For And Against Sathya Sai Baba On The Internet" = C
First, Andries insisted that Ref1, the Dutch article published in 1994, was the original source for the updated versions of articles A and B → Because of these claims BostonMA attempted to write a factual account using this information → Andries then mentioned article C and said it contained "completely new information" (meaning it is not dependent on Ref1 or articles A or B) → Andries then made reference to Ref2, a Dutch article published in 2001, and claimed that articles A, B and C originated from it (meaning they did not originate from Ref1 as Andries originally claimed) → After researching Ref2, it was written on January 29th 2001 → Articles A and C were written in August 2001 and article B was written in September 2001 [2] → After reading Ref2, it is obvious that it is the original source for articles A, B and C (they contain essentially the same information) → So it can only be concluded that articles A and B were NOT the updated versions to Ref1 as Andries originally contended. Ref2 is the source. I assume Andries next tactic is to say that Ref2 came from Ref1. However, it is clear that Ref2 is a completely different article. For starters, Ref2 makes no mention to Swallow (which comprised a huge chunk of Ref1) and relies heavily on internet sources (as can be seen in the references). Also, out of 85 references listed on Ref1, only 4 (Eijk, Djik, Brooke and Vroon) were cited on Ref2 (yes, I checked all of them). Clearly, they are not the same article, nor was one taken from the other. So the "notably" published Ref1 does NOT lend its "notability" to the Anti-Sai Articles A, B or C or Ref2. The story keeps changing. SSS108 18:33, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
After reading the other's comments, I guess I am tempted to give my own views as well. Yes, please move my comments as you see fit. I believe the above account is not factual for two reasons: 1) As SSS108 pointed out, Alexandra Nagel's status as a Sai Antagonist is not mentioned; 2) Andries never argued, until recently, that "A guru accused" and "Sai baba as Shiva-Shakti: a created myth? Or?" were updated versions of "De Sai Paradox". I have noticed, over the past months, that Andries has changed his opinions and tactics repeatedly to suit his point of view. I consider Andries recent claims about "A guru accused" and "Sai baba as Shiva-Shakti: a created myth? Or?" to be more of the same. For these two reasons, I do not consider the account factual. I hope this answered your question. Thaumaturgic 06:00, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
One can also make the case that since Nagel's two articles were not published by the VU in the last 5 years, the 2 articles do not meet the VU's criteria for scholarly writing. SSS108 17:44, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
The question has arisen whether or not the articles A guru accused and Sai Baba as Shiva-Shakti: a Created Myth? Or? may be considered reliable sources. The Wikipedia policy Verifiability contains text which I believe bears upon the question:
In the current situation, it may be a fact that Nagel's English articles report many of the same facts as her published article. However, it seems to the mediator that statements by Nagel are analogous to the famous physicists statements about his/her current (dis)belief in Theory X. -- BostonMA 03:24, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Please indicate whether you agree or disagree that the above two articles do not satisfy the requirement of verifiable sources according to Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Please do not discuss other issues in this section.
An argument has been raised that articles which do not satisfy the requirements for verifiable sources according to the letter of the Wikipedia Verifiability policy, might nevertheless be a better source than an older article which does meet those requirements (according to the letter). A relevent passage from Verifiability Policy is again:
The two newer articles differ from the older published article in that they contain more recent material. However, this seems to be analogous to the situation of the physicist with an updated theory. The physicist's new theory may in fact be an improvement from a scientific viewpoint. Nevertheless, from Wikipedia's perspective, the "better" source is the one that has been published. In the case of the Nagel articles, the differences that distinguish the two newer articles from the older published article might be seen as improvements because they are more up to date. However, I think Wikipedia's policy is to not necessarily use the most up-to-date information, but to use the most up-to-date information that has been deemed credible by an appropriate community of experts.
Please express your agreement or disagreement with the opinion of the mediator expressed in this section. Please do not discuss unrelated issues here. -- BostonMA 05:37, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
The question has been raised as to whether Wikipedia policy or guidelines require sources to be notable. The text of Notability begins with the statement:
It is the mediator's interpretation of the notability guideline, that it applies only to the question of which topics ought to be included in Wikipedia. The mediator does not read the notability requirement as saying that verifiable sources used to suppport various statements in a Wikipedia article need to be notable. Notable sources may be preferable when available, but non-notable sources may satisfy the verifiable sources requirement.
Please indicate your agreement or disagreement to the above opinion of the mediator. Please discuss other issues elsewhere.
The Wikipedia guideline Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Sources in languages other than English states:
The article De Sai Paradox: Tegenstrijdigheden van en rondom Sathya Sai Baba is written in Dutch. This makes it difficult for many users of Wikipedia who do not read or understand Dutch to verify the content of the source. However, that does not make the source un-verifiable. Encyclopedias have always relied upon multi-lingual authors and editors to honestly report upon materials written in languages other than the language of the encyclopedia. I don't believe Wikipedia is any different in this respect, nor do I believe it should be. -- BostonMA 03:24, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Please indicate your agreement or disagreement to the above opinion of the mediator. Please discuss other issues elsewhere.
Alexandra Nagel's 1994 published article was based upon writings she had authored in partial fulfillment of her academic requirements. The question is raised whether such works may be considered reputable sources. Specifically, concern has been raised that the author did not have academic credentials at the time the article was written. In the mediator's opinion, it is the responsibility of a reputable publication to screen articles for their quality. If a reputable publication deems an article worthy of publication, even though the author lacks academic credentials, then it is this mediator's opinion, that Wikipedia editors ought to accept the article as one coming from a reputable source.
Please indicate your agreement or disagreement to the above opinion of the mediator. Please discuss other issues elsewhere.
Nagel's 1994 article was published by an institution which advertises that it adheres to a "tradition of Christian standards and values." It is not an unreasonable supposition that a certain rivalry exists between the Free University of Amsterdam and Sathya Sai Baba's movement. It is this mediator's opinion, that when relying upon publications of such an institution as the source of information in a Wikipedia article, the Wikipedia article needs to properly attribute this information. In my opinion, this requires a statement in the text of the article that the information is sourced by an institution that professes adherence to Christian values, or something similar.
Please indicate your agreement or disagreement to the above opinion of the mediator. Please discuss other issues elsewhere.
An analogy, in the article guru, I included a reference to a 1997 article by a university professor (Albertina Nugteren) of the University of Tilburg that was then still officially (until 2002) a catholic university, but to state that she worked for a then Catholic university is possible, but I still think somewhat exaggerated. (I just became of aware of this fact by the way) And to state the very diluted religious background of the university in a publication of the university when treating an article by an author who never worked for the university is clearly exaggerated. Andries 22:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Sekten was not a book. It was a Journal/Magazine. What was the context of Cohen's article in the magazine? Besides this one article, by Cohen, where are the other articles that are not Anti-Sects? Is there any volume (published by Sekten) that was not Anti-Sect? Letters from devotees are published on skeptic's sites. This does not make a skeptic's site "non-skeptic". It is a fact that Christian Organizations (i.e., the Lutheran World Federation and the World Council of Churches) sponsered articles, with Anti-Sect tones, through the Free University Amsterdam [3] Couple this with the Free University's policy of having the staff be orthodox Protestant and this becomes very relevant information. SSS108 04:23, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
One must keep in mind that the Journal in question is an Anti-Sect journal. The fact that the University upholds and openly professes Christian values is entirely relevant to their publication of an Anti-Sect Journal that happens to target non-Christian movements. This is more than just coincidence. SSS108 17:34, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries: I find it basically okay to use her 1994 article and I will give it the prominence that it deserves, that is a big promincence because it is the only peer reviewed article available world wide that does not only treat the belief and practices, based on hagiographical literature, but also the person of SSB. If other editors object to giving a big prominence to Nagel's article then I would like to hear new arguments for this, and I expect them to refer to policy and guidelines to back up their arguments. I have until now not seen one convincing argument supported by policy and guidelines for not giving a big prominence to Nagel's 1994 article. Andries 17:43, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Thaumaturgic: In line with Andries comments, other references that cite Kasturi, Sandweiss and Murphet should also be given the same prominence they deserve. Thaumaturgic 18:35, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I have given my opinions, on the some of the issues related to the usability of Alexandra Nagel's work. Please express you own opinions here. -- BostonMA 03:24, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I would argue for caution in accepting the inclusion of this magazine as being de facto reputable. On a previous dispute with Andries, he included an article published in the same magazine written also by a student. This magazine publishes many types of articles, and is not a publication that publishes peer reviewed articles. One thing would be of interest: has Nagel been published at all in any peer reviewed publication?. Googling her name seeems only brings back sites related to critics, or ahem the articles in Wikipedia and Wikipedia mirrors. Having said that, her article should be cited in the article but within proportion to her reputation. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:38, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
A simple comparison of the three articles: "De Sai Paradox", "Sai Baba as Shiva-Shakti: a Created Myth? Or?" and "A Guru Accused" shows that they are not one and the same. The only part that seems to be duplicated is the article about Deborah Swallow. Since "Sai Baba as Shiva-Shakti: a Created Myth? Or?" and "A Guru Accused" were not published in any notable references, they constitute original research. Also, to date, Andries has never claimed that the other 2 articles were taken from "De Sai Paradox". This is a recent, newfound, revelation.
Also, it is important to point out that Alexandra Nagel is a self-professed Anti-Sai Activist since 1990. All of her writings are written from a critics POV. Her articles are not neutral and I have pointed out numerous errors in her writings. These writings were college assignments and Nagel rehashed the same information over and over. SSS108 05:35, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Jossie, I understand what you said. I am simply pointing out that Nagel is a critic. The way she is described by Andries, gives the impression that she is neutral. I just want to make it clear she isn't. SSS108 05:51, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Her article, "De Sai Paradox" is published in a University Journal. Therefore, I have no problems if Andries cites that particular paper. I have problems when Andries tries to cite Nagel's other papers that were never published in any notable references. It appears that since Nagel had one article published in a notable reference, Andries is wrongfully elevating all of Nagel's papers to the same level. SSS108 06:16, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, my site contains voluminous amounts of information updating the controversy. Should we cite my non-notable website as well? If you want cite "updated" information that has not been cited in reputable publications, then I see no reason why we can't cite my site as well. My site contains the "updated" versions to many of the allegations. Judge carefully what standard you are seeking to implement. As I have stated before, you argue heavily for the inclusion of the Anti-Sai POV, but when the same standards are demanded for the Pro-Sai POV, you argue against it! SSS108 18:06, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Some background about the VU. Cite from: http://www.geocities.com/fedor_steeman/nederland.html ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:52, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
This might explain why the University puts out an Anti-Sect Journal. SSS108 06:03, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
From the VU's website:
When citing material published from this University, we need to provide to readers the very relevant information that that this University represents a Christian POV. I intent to add this statement to the many references added by Andries to many articles in Wikipedia. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 06:06, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
(A request for SS108: please sign at the end of your last paragraph and not on a separate line, and pleae do not add horizontal rules between postings. Thanks) ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:41, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Alexandra Nagel's article (name) was published in (name). What is reliability of this publication?
--
BostonMA 03:56, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Why Nagel's article was published by the Free University of Amsterdam is a mystery. In 1994, Nagel had no credentials and no college accreditations. Even Andries cannot say how she got her paper published in this University Journal. No one knows what criteria were used to accept her paper. It is my opinion that the paper in question was a college assignment (just as Nagel stated her other papers were).
Nevertheless, the fact of the matter is that the article was published, in 1994, in a University Journal specific to sects. The Journal is called "Sekten". Nagel's article was called "De Sai Paradox". It is published on Anti-Sai Sites only in Dutch. It has not been translated into English. I believe the relevant information is as follows: Free University Amsterdam; 'Sekten', 1994, nr. 29; ISBN 9053833412 SSS108 05:03, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
This page was created as part of the mediation process for the Sathya Sai Baba and related articles. The page is specifically devoted to discussion of the use of Nagel as a source per Wikipedia policy on Verifiable Sources
Alexandra Nagel was the author of an article De Sai Paradox: Tegenstrijdigheden van en rondom Sathya Sai Baba/The Sai Paradox:contradictions of and surrounding Sathya Sai Baba from the series Religieuze bewegingen in Nederland/Religious movements in the Netherlands nr. 29 Sekten/Cults/Sects, published by the Free University of Amsterdam, 1994, ISBN 9053833412. The article was published in the Dutch only.
The Free University of Amsterdam advertises that its "origins are rooted in the Christian faith" and that "it still retains its tradition of Christian standards and values."
Since 1994 Nagel has written several other articles, A guru accused and Sai Baba as Shiva-Shakti: a Created Myth? Or?, in English which have not been published in reputable journals, but which are available on the internet. Andries reports that the articles A guru accused and Sai Baba as Shiva-Shakti: a Created Myth? Or? shares both similarities with and differences from her 1994 article. Among the differences, the 1994 article contains information specific to the Netherlands, not mentioned in the other articles, and 1994 article treated only allegations of inappropriate sexual approaches to Tal Brooke and Keith Ord while here later articles also report upon other allegations of sexual misconduct.
I have rewritten the factual account again. The account in this section is intended as a reference point for discussions. It does not address policy (or guideline) issues. Please indicate whether you think this account is fair and factual below. Agreement with this account does not imply agreement on any policy issues, nor does it imply consent to any content within any Wikipedia article. Please discuss policy questions and non-factual issues elsewhere.
BostonMA, now you can see the problem here. The truth has finally come out. I will refer to the following articles as:
"De Sai Paradox" = Ref1
"Sai Baba - from avatar to homo-pedophile" = Ref2
"A Guru Accused" = A
"Shiva Shakti: A Created Myth? Or?" = B
"For And Against Sathya Sai Baba On The Internet" = C
First, Andries insisted that Ref1, the Dutch article published in 1994, was the original source for the updated versions of articles A and B → Because of these claims BostonMA attempted to write a factual account using this information → Andries then mentioned article C and said it contained "completely new information" (meaning it is not dependent on Ref1 or articles A or B) → Andries then made reference to Ref2, a Dutch article published in 2001, and claimed that articles A, B and C originated from it (meaning they did not originate from Ref1 as Andries originally claimed) → After researching Ref2, it was written on January 29th 2001 → Articles A and C were written in August 2001 and article B was written in September 2001 [2] → After reading Ref2, it is obvious that it is the original source for articles A, B and C (they contain essentially the same information) → So it can only be concluded that articles A and B were NOT the updated versions to Ref1 as Andries originally contended. Ref2 is the source. I assume Andries next tactic is to say that Ref2 came from Ref1. However, it is clear that Ref2 is a completely different article. For starters, Ref2 makes no mention to Swallow (which comprised a huge chunk of Ref1) and relies heavily on internet sources (as can be seen in the references). Also, out of 85 references listed on Ref1, only 4 (Eijk, Djik, Brooke and Vroon) were cited on Ref2 (yes, I checked all of them). Clearly, they are not the same article, nor was one taken from the other. So the "notably" published Ref1 does NOT lend its "notability" to the Anti-Sai Articles A, B or C or Ref2. The story keeps changing. SSS108 18:33, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
After reading the other's comments, I guess I am tempted to give my own views as well. Yes, please move my comments as you see fit. I believe the above account is not factual for two reasons: 1) As SSS108 pointed out, Alexandra Nagel's status as a Sai Antagonist is not mentioned; 2) Andries never argued, until recently, that "A guru accused" and "Sai baba as Shiva-Shakti: a created myth? Or?" were updated versions of "De Sai Paradox". I have noticed, over the past months, that Andries has changed his opinions and tactics repeatedly to suit his point of view. I consider Andries recent claims about "A guru accused" and "Sai baba as Shiva-Shakti: a created myth? Or?" to be more of the same. For these two reasons, I do not consider the account factual. I hope this answered your question. Thaumaturgic 06:00, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
One can also make the case that since Nagel's two articles were not published by the VU in the last 5 years, the 2 articles do not meet the VU's criteria for scholarly writing. SSS108 17:44, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
The question has arisen whether or not the articles A guru accused and Sai Baba as Shiva-Shakti: a Created Myth? Or? may be considered reliable sources. The Wikipedia policy Verifiability contains text which I believe bears upon the question:
In the current situation, it may be a fact that Nagel's English articles report many of the same facts as her published article. However, it seems to the mediator that statements by Nagel are analogous to the famous physicists statements about his/her current (dis)belief in Theory X. -- BostonMA 03:24, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Please indicate whether you agree or disagree that the above two articles do not satisfy the requirement of verifiable sources according to Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Please do not discuss other issues in this section.
An argument has been raised that articles which do not satisfy the requirements for verifiable sources according to the letter of the Wikipedia Verifiability policy, might nevertheless be a better source than an older article which does meet those requirements (according to the letter). A relevent passage from Verifiability Policy is again:
The two newer articles differ from the older published article in that they contain more recent material. However, this seems to be analogous to the situation of the physicist with an updated theory. The physicist's new theory may in fact be an improvement from a scientific viewpoint. Nevertheless, from Wikipedia's perspective, the "better" source is the one that has been published. In the case of the Nagel articles, the differences that distinguish the two newer articles from the older published article might be seen as improvements because they are more up to date. However, I think Wikipedia's policy is to not necessarily use the most up-to-date information, but to use the most up-to-date information that has been deemed credible by an appropriate community of experts.
Please express your agreement or disagreement with the opinion of the mediator expressed in this section. Please do not discuss unrelated issues here. -- BostonMA 05:37, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
The question has been raised as to whether Wikipedia policy or guidelines require sources to be notable. The text of Notability begins with the statement:
It is the mediator's interpretation of the notability guideline, that it applies only to the question of which topics ought to be included in Wikipedia. The mediator does not read the notability requirement as saying that verifiable sources used to suppport various statements in a Wikipedia article need to be notable. Notable sources may be preferable when available, but non-notable sources may satisfy the verifiable sources requirement.
Please indicate your agreement or disagreement to the above opinion of the mediator. Please discuss other issues elsewhere.
The Wikipedia guideline Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Sources in languages other than English states:
The article De Sai Paradox: Tegenstrijdigheden van en rondom Sathya Sai Baba is written in Dutch. This makes it difficult for many users of Wikipedia who do not read or understand Dutch to verify the content of the source. However, that does not make the source un-verifiable. Encyclopedias have always relied upon multi-lingual authors and editors to honestly report upon materials written in languages other than the language of the encyclopedia. I don't believe Wikipedia is any different in this respect, nor do I believe it should be. -- BostonMA 03:24, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Please indicate your agreement or disagreement to the above opinion of the mediator. Please discuss other issues elsewhere.
Alexandra Nagel's 1994 published article was based upon writings she had authored in partial fulfillment of her academic requirements. The question is raised whether such works may be considered reputable sources. Specifically, concern has been raised that the author did not have academic credentials at the time the article was written. In the mediator's opinion, it is the responsibility of a reputable publication to screen articles for their quality. If a reputable publication deems an article worthy of publication, even though the author lacks academic credentials, then it is this mediator's opinion, that Wikipedia editors ought to accept the article as one coming from a reputable source.
Please indicate your agreement or disagreement to the above opinion of the mediator. Please discuss other issues elsewhere.
Nagel's 1994 article was published by an institution which advertises that it adheres to a "tradition of Christian standards and values." It is not an unreasonable supposition that a certain rivalry exists between the Free University of Amsterdam and Sathya Sai Baba's movement. It is this mediator's opinion, that when relying upon publications of such an institution as the source of information in a Wikipedia article, the Wikipedia article needs to properly attribute this information. In my opinion, this requires a statement in the text of the article that the information is sourced by an institution that professes adherence to Christian values, or something similar.
Please indicate your agreement or disagreement to the above opinion of the mediator. Please discuss other issues elsewhere.
An analogy, in the article guru, I included a reference to a 1997 article by a university professor (Albertina Nugteren) of the University of Tilburg that was then still officially (until 2002) a catholic university, but to state that she worked for a then Catholic university is possible, but I still think somewhat exaggerated. (I just became of aware of this fact by the way) And to state the very diluted religious background of the university in a publication of the university when treating an article by an author who never worked for the university is clearly exaggerated. Andries 22:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Sekten was not a book. It was a Journal/Magazine. What was the context of Cohen's article in the magazine? Besides this one article, by Cohen, where are the other articles that are not Anti-Sects? Is there any volume (published by Sekten) that was not Anti-Sect? Letters from devotees are published on skeptic's sites. This does not make a skeptic's site "non-skeptic". It is a fact that Christian Organizations (i.e., the Lutheran World Federation and the World Council of Churches) sponsered articles, with Anti-Sect tones, through the Free University Amsterdam [3] Couple this with the Free University's policy of having the staff be orthodox Protestant and this becomes very relevant information. SSS108 04:23, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
One must keep in mind that the Journal in question is an Anti-Sect journal. The fact that the University upholds and openly professes Christian values is entirely relevant to their publication of an Anti-Sect Journal that happens to target non-Christian movements. This is more than just coincidence. SSS108 17:34, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries: I find it basically okay to use her 1994 article and I will give it the prominence that it deserves, that is a big promincence because it is the only peer reviewed article available world wide that does not only treat the belief and practices, based on hagiographical literature, but also the person of SSB. If other editors object to giving a big prominence to Nagel's article then I would like to hear new arguments for this, and I expect them to refer to policy and guidelines to back up their arguments. I have until now not seen one convincing argument supported by policy and guidelines for not giving a big prominence to Nagel's 1994 article. Andries 17:43, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Thaumaturgic: In line with Andries comments, other references that cite Kasturi, Sandweiss and Murphet should also be given the same prominence they deserve. Thaumaturgic 18:35, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I have given my opinions, on the some of the issues related to the usability of Alexandra Nagel's work. Please express you own opinions here. -- BostonMA 03:24, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I would argue for caution in accepting the inclusion of this magazine as being de facto reputable. On a previous dispute with Andries, he included an article published in the same magazine written also by a student. This magazine publishes many types of articles, and is not a publication that publishes peer reviewed articles. One thing would be of interest: has Nagel been published at all in any peer reviewed publication?. Googling her name seeems only brings back sites related to critics, or ahem the articles in Wikipedia and Wikipedia mirrors. Having said that, her article should be cited in the article but within proportion to her reputation. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:38, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
A simple comparison of the three articles: "De Sai Paradox", "Sai Baba as Shiva-Shakti: a Created Myth? Or?" and "A Guru Accused" shows that they are not one and the same. The only part that seems to be duplicated is the article about Deborah Swallow. Since "Sai Baba as Shiva-Shakti: a Created Myth? Or?" and "A Guru Accused" were not published in any notable references, they constitute original research. Also, to date, Andries has never claimed that the other 2 articles were taken from "De Sai Paradox". This is a recent, newfound, revelation.
Also, it is important to point out that Alexandra Nagel is a self-professed Anti-Sai Activist since 1990. All of her writings are written from a critics POV. Her articles are not neutral and I have pointed out numerous errors in her writings. These writings were college assignments and Nagel rehashed the same information over and over. SSS108 05:35, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Jossie, I understand what you said. I am simply pointing out that Nagel is a critic. The way she is described by Andries, gives the impression that she is neutral. I just want to make it clear she isn't. SSS108 05:51, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Her article, "De Sai Paradox" is published in a University Journal. Therefore, I have no problems if Andries cites that particular paper. I have problems when Andries tries to cite Nagel's other papers that were never published in any notable references. It appears that since Nagel had one article published in a notable reference, Andries is wrongfully elevating all of Nagel's papers to the same level. SSS108 06:16, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, my site contains voluminous amounts of information updating the controversy. Should we cite my non-notable website as well? If you want cite "updated" information that has not been cited in reputable publications, then I see no reason why we can't cite my site as well. My site contains the "updated" versions to many of the allegations. Judge carefully what standard you are seeking to implement. As I have stated before, you argue heavily for the inclusion of the Anti-Sai POV, but when the same standards are demanded for the Pro-Sai POV, you argue against it! SSS108 18:06, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Some background about the VU. Cite from: http://www.geocities.com/fedor_steeman/nederland.html ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:52, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
This might explain why the University puts out an Anti-Sect Journal. SSS108 06:03, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
From the VU's website:
When citing material published from this University, we need to provide to readers the very relevant information that that this University represents a Christian POV. I intent to add this statement to the many references added by Andries to many articles in Wikipedia. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 06:06, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
(A request for SS108: please sign at the end of your last paragraph and not on a separate line, and pleae do not add horizontal rules between postings. Thanks) ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:41, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Alexandra Nagel's article (name) was published in (name). What is reliability of this publication?
--
BostonMA 03:56, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Why Nagel's article was published by the Free University of Amsterdam is a mystery. In 1994, Nagel had no credentials and no college accreditations. Even Andries cannot say how she got her paper published in this University Journal. No one knows what criteria were used to accept her paper. It is my opinion that the paper in question was a college assignment (just as Nagel stated her other papers were).
Nevertheless, the fact of the matter is that the article was published, in 1994, in a University Journal specific to sects. The Journal is called "Sekten". Nagel's article was called "De Sai Paradox". It is published on Anti-Sai Sites only in Dutch. It has not been translated into English. I believe the relevant information is as follows: Free University Amsterdam; 'Sekten', 1994, nr. 29; ISBN 9053833412 SSS108 05:03, 12 February 2006 (UTC)