Please Note: This page has been heavily reorganized for readability
Pages associated with this mediation include:
Hello Andries. Before we jump into the disputes themselves, I would like to deal with some preliminary issues. You had agreed Talk:Sathya Sai Baba#Dispute resolution to mediation on a prior occasion. Please understand, however, that I am not an official mediator, just a volunteer. Under these circumstances, I would very much like you to express whether or not you are willing to have me as a mediator. (Please do so in the top section above). There are some other issues that I would like to discuss right at the start.
Prior to your original agreement to mediation, you raised concern that the process should be binding. I have no power of enforcement. I can however, make proposals that all parties abide by certain procedures. Agreement to these proposals would be voluntary, and it would be the right of wikipedians to treat such agreements as outside of normal Wikipedia jurisdiction. However, such agreements may have a moral authority, even if not an official one.
So, please consider whether you would agree to have me play the role of mediator, and indicate your agreement/disagreement above. Thanks -- BostonMA 13:50, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
In the mediator's opinion, the conflicts that occurred on the SSB and related pages prior to the start of mediation had a highly repetative character. The same or similar points would be raised again and again. Part of the reason why mediation seemed to become necessary is that the repetition of arguments seemed to have little or no effect toward resolving the conflicts. For this reason, the mediator has attempted to focus on a few issues until they are resolved, rather than to leave off a discussion whenever a new issue arose. For that reason, there is somewhat of a gap between the questions the mediator has raised, and the immediately disputed edit conflicts. The mediator does not want to discourage the parties from debating issues outside of those he has raised as formal questions. Nor does the mediator want to address every edit conflict immediately when it occurs. However, it has been argued that a "new" edit falls outside the scope of the current mediation. The mediator disagrees, and believes that the new edit conflicts are continuations of existing edit conflicts. Because the mediator has not focused on these questions, parties should not be accused of abandoning mediation merely on the grounds that discussion of edits is taking place on the talk pages of the article rather than on mediation pages. However, the mediator does not want to set a precedent in which parties believe that the mediator should not raise questions pertaining to certain edits on the grounds that these edits are "out of scope".
Please express your agreement or disagreement with this opinion of the mediator. Please discuss other issues elsewhere. -- BostonMA 20:55, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
One of the main editors for the SSB Wikipedia article is Andries. He is also the webmaster to the largest Anti-SSB Site on the internet, opposing SSB: hetnet.nl/~exbaba It is important to point out that Andries now claims, after a three year period, he is not the webmaster for the site. However, there is plenty of evidence to refute this claim: Reference As a matter of fact, Andries is now listing his position, on the hetnet.nl/~exbaba site, as being the "Main Representative, Supervisor and Contact". Therefore, his direct involvement, with the largest Anti-SSB site on the world wide web, is indisputable.
Andries has referenced the personal homepages of various Anti-SSB activists for over two years on the Main SSB article and about 14 months on the Allegations Against Sathya Sai Baba article. Andries never complained about personal homepages until my homepage was cited on the Main SSB article. Now Andries claims that personal homepages violate Wikipedia's guidelines. I have NO problem removing my name and webpages from the article. However, Andries is linking the references directly to Anti-SSB sites (including his own) in an attempt to promote his POV.
It is my contention that these actions do not promote a NPOV because the references (which were never originally published on Anti-Sai Sites) are linked to sites that specifically oppose Sathya Sai Baba. Therefore, I have insisted (to maintain fairness) that as long as Andries Anti-Sai Site is referenced, my Pro-Sai Site should be referenced as well. I have also asked that the references either be linked directly to their original sources or not linked at all (giving un-linked reference information instead).
Thaumaturgic originally submitted one paragraph to the Main SSB article Reference 2 Andries kept deleting this article and modifying it, attempting to undermine it. Then Andries started attributing the viewpoints to me Reference 3 After attributing the viewpoints to me, Andries claimed I am "non-notable" and repeatedly attempted to delete the entire Devotees and Proponents section. It is important to point out that the one paragraph was/is not dependent on me or my views. The paragraph contained statements of fact that sum up the Devotees and Proponents POV. It is also my contention that Andries is guilty of POV Pushing. He is willing to go to great lengths to add anything negative to the article but consistently waters down, modifies or deletes any positive material.
One example (out of many) is when Andries cited LIMF (The unofficial biography of SSB, Love Is My Form) as a "reputable" reference to support opposing information against SSB. After stating LIMF is "reputable", Andries completely disregards LIMF when it comes to Pro-Sai material in the book.
I am not the only person to have problems with Andries. There are many other editors who have had numerous problems with him. For example, you can view the Guru Talk Page and the Prem Rawat Talk Page.
I suggest that a couple of paragraphs be added to the Main SSB page that fairly and neutrally summarizes the SSB Controversy. Then I ask that the NPOV be enforced with other SSB related articles, including the "Allegations Against Sathya Sai Baba" article.
I would like to make it clear that I am not seeking to eliminate or suppress the Anti-SSB POV. You can verify this from my edits. At no time have I ever deleted the Anti-SSB POV or modified it in any significant way.
Thank you for volunteering to moderate. I am optimistic that only good can come from this and I look forward to working together with you to make the SSB Wikipedia Articles neutral, fair and balanced.
SSS108 05:27, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
BostonMA, I would also like to thank you for volunteering to mediate. If you do not mind, I would rather watch the discussion and add occasional comments. I do not want Andries to feel that he is being ganged up upon by SSS108 and me. SSS108 is much more familiar with the material in question than I. This Wikipedia article is prejudiced and is promoting an antagonistic point of view, against Sathya Sai Baba. Andries is the person who is responsible for this bias. Any information added to the article must first pass his inspection, approval and edits. This is unfair and should not be allowed. Andries is openly antagonistic towards Sathya Sai Baba and maintains a high-ranking position on the Exbaba site. You can view the discussion I started when I added the Devotees and Proponents section [1] Like SSS108, I have not sought to eliminate the antagonistic point of view. With SSS108's help, I simply sought to include a Devotees and Proponents point of view. Who knew that one paragraph could evince such hostility? The problems with this article far exceeds the addition of a Devotees and Proponents point of view. I am committed to a neutral point of view and would like my voice counted as one, among many, opposing the bias in this article. Thaumaturgic 16:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
What I expect for this article and from mediation
1. Same standards for allowing sources and reference: if critics can only use peer reviewed articles and articles from reputable magazines and newspapers then apologists' material must follow the same standards. So I suggest setting a standard for inclusion and exclusion first. If apologists (like Moreno) can quote themselves from their non-notable homepages that contradict reputable sources, like the BBC and the Free university of Amsterdam then I (and other critics) can quote myself too from my non notable homepage that contradict reputable sources. The website www.exbaba.com, though I am affiliated with the website, is not my homepage: it is the homepage of the concerned Dutch former followers of SSB of which I am a member. Only a very small fraction of the website was authored by me. The only articles that were authored by me are my testimony “calumny confirmed”, a short translation and short comment about a SSB school in the Netherlands, my small outdated essay about “brainwashing” (that was first published on a yahoo group and then on
http://www.surrealist.org/betrayalofthespirit/index.html#cultsgeneral and only then on exbaba) and the compilation of the recovery section on exbaba. Exbaba has never been the website on which I can de jure or de facto voice my opinions, unlike the website of Gerald Joe Moreno/SSS108 and I have limited influence over its contents.
2. Clearly identified violations of Wikipedia policies should either be removed or improved within a week. We should not wait with improving or removing until “the other side” has followed all of Wikipedia policies and guidelines.
3. Main organization of the article should by subject or chronological, not per POV. We should not discuss Jens Sethi, or affidavits in two or three different places.
4. The discussion and space dedicated to criticism in this article should reflect the criticism in both mainstream media articles and scholarly articles since David Bailey’s publication of “The Findings” in the year 2000 that was a major turning point in the debates about SSB.
5. Facts and government actions should precede the opinions and internet wars between critics and apologists. The first clearly have more encyclopedic value.
With regards to my behavior in the past that involved using the homepages of Robert Priddy and Brian Steel as sources that may have violated the Wikipedia a bit I would like to say the following. Both Priddy and Steel have published books about SSB that could have been used as a source for this article. Using their outdated books as a source while not allowing their current homepages in which they refute their previous writings may break the Wikipedia policies literally, but clearly contradicts common sense and the Wikipedia policies do not treat such an exceptional case. Apart from that, Steel and Priddy have been favorably cited as a source by Alexandra Nagel who wrote an article published by the Free University of Amsterdam in 1994 about SSB. Thirdly, most of Priddy’s online work has been published in book from by Basava Premanand who is treated as an expert by the BBC in the documentary Secret Swami. You can check this in the transcript. Fourth, the writings of Steel and Priddy do not contradict the publications of reputable sources, like the BBC and Danish Radio, unlike the writings of Moreno, who basically writes among many other things that the investigative journalism by the BBC is flawed when writing about Rahm family. (I have some inside knowledge about the way the BBC worked and they omitted several testimonies by sexual abuse victims and choose to focus on the Rahm family, among others because everything had to be cramped in a one-hour documentary.)
Another thing with regards to the accusations of Moreno about my behavior that I should not have attributed statements to him. I think my behavior is clearly backed up by Wikipedia guidelines and policies.
Also Moreno/SSS108 confuses links to homepage with information or opinions sourced to homepages. The first latter is clearly discouraged or even forbidden by policy, but I have not seen any guideline or policy that says or discourages that linking to media articles published on homepages is forbidden or discouraged. If so, where do policies or guidelines say so? I admit, of course, that it is better to link directly to the BBC than to the anti-SSB websites
http://www.saiguru.net and
http://www.exbaba.com if the material is available online at the website of the BBC. I have already made a start with bypassing the anti-SSB websites saiguru.net and exbaba.com. I had not done this in the past, mainly because it was easier and more convenient for me to link to exbaba.com, not because I wanted to promote exbaba.com: after all I know the website quite well, but even I occasionally encounter something there of which I was not aware. If the material is only available on www.exbaba.com and www.saiguru.net then I think this justifies linking to these websites, because online references have clearly added value to the reader. Not everybody has access to a university library around the corner. Of course it become a different matter if those media article are interspersed with comments by the editors of exbaba, or apologist comments, but this is as far as I am aware not the case, with the exception of one article published in the Dutch newspaper
Trouw, mistranslated by the Dutch American Ella Evers. Probably most of the writings by Moreno cannot be sourced to any media article or scholarly sources. This is, I believe, an indication that Moreno wants to publish his original research in Wikipedia.
Moreno also seems to confuse neutrality with NPOV. Wikipedia is not neutral about the Flat earth theory, but it does follow NPOV policies. NPOV means following media and scholarly articles and opinions, not minimizing them or excluding them because they are non-neutral or "biased".
Further what I personally see as a major problem is that Moreno publishes all my e-mails on his homepage with all kinds of suggestive and misguided comments. How can I properly communicate with him if he behaves in such a way?
Andries 15:25, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Although the setting of ground rules might seem to be the first order of business, my instincts suggest that we try an experiment first. I think all parties agree that the article should be neutral and balanced, but opinions vary regarding what constitutes neutral and balanced. I would like, as the first order of business to do a little exploration to find out if there is room for agreement on some basic issues, such as the percentage of the main article that would need to be devoted to criticisms of SSB if that article were to be accepted as neutral and balanced by all parties. Its possible there is room for agreement, but it is also possible that the parties are far apart on this. So, I'd like to explore this a bit.
What I would like each of you to do is to answer the questions below. Please note that the questions are about a hypothetical article which is neutral and balanced. If you say that a neutral and balanced article would not have more than x percent of its space devoted to criticisms, that would not imply that if the current article has less than x percent then it is neutral, nor does it mean that if the current article were adjusted to have less than x percent that it would be neutral. What it means is that any article which has more than x percent would not be neutral. Please try to give justifications for your answers. For example,
Thank you in advance for indulging my request. -- BostonMA 16:40, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
1. If the main SSB article were neutral and balanced, it would not have more than what percentage of its space devoted to criticisms of SSB?
2. If the main SSB article were neutral and balanced, it would not have less than what percentage of its space devoted to criticisms of SSB?
I have not seen a response from Thaumaturgic regarding the acceptable high and low limits for the critical content of the main SSB article. However, Thaumaturgic had expressed previously an intention to "watch the discussion and add occasional comments", so I will not wait. I note that the high limit for SSS108 is 25%, which is the low limit of Andries. Unfortunately, there is not very much overlap. However, with the figures given, it would be theoretically possible for there to be a balanced article, which could be recognized as such by both parties (if we examine only this one aspect, namely the percentage of critical content).
What I would like to ask now are the following questions.
1. Approximately what percentage of the current article would you say is critical?
2. Can you agree as follows: If the the article is at any time over 40% critical, that you will refrain from adding further critical material?
3. If the answer to the above question is no, please explain why you feel you cannot agree to the previous item.
4. Please give a percentage such that if the critical material within the article ever rises above this level, you agree to refrain from adding further critical material.
Please note. The questions above are not asking whether you would consider an article which consisted of 40% critical material to be balanced. Rather, the questions ask about your own willingness to cease adding critical material.. -- BostonMA 02:56, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
OK, several issue have arisen that I think need to be addressed before moving forward.
Regarding the first item: Thaumaturgic and Andries, could you please give as best you are able, rationales for why you chose 20% and 25% respectively for your respective high and low limits. Please do not take too much time in your explanation. A paragraph or two will suffice. Also, please do not bother to argue against the other party's position at this time. Thanks.
Regarding the second item: Andries. I am sorry to hear that a friend of yours was close to suicide. I can understand your feelings about this. Other editors have not expressed to me their views regarding whether or not mention of the suicides belongs in the article. At this point I would like to put that question aside for the moment. But lets assume, for the sake of argument that the article should mention these suicides. If I understand your position, you believe the article to contain 63% critical material, and should not exceed 48.3%, leaving aside my proposal for a voluntary 40% cap. You also agree that the current percentages are excessive. My question to you is this. Do you need to add your additional critical material right now? Or can you wait until the article has become more balanced? Could you help to improve the balance first? I would very much appreciate it if you would give some thought to these questions, and share them here. -- BostonMA 03:45, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, why don't you explain why The Times left out David Bailey and Keith Ord's statements about 2 of the suicide victims? These two people are Anti-Sai Activists. Also, you have already said, numerous times, that the BBC, Danish Raido, etc., were biased against SSB and were favorably inclined towards Anti-Sai Activists. So you have already explained why they would speak out against SSB. They were biased. Even you admitted it.
SSS108 19:06, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries has agreed to not add new critical material to the main SSB article for a two week period. My suggestion is that, during these two weeks, in addition to the discussion which is taking place on this page, a strong effort is made to increase the content of the non-critical sections and/or add new sections. For example I would imagine that the "teachings" section could go into much greater depth. (I am far less familiar with the sources available, but I would guess that this is possible.)
I believe the discussion on this page should continue during the next two weeks. However, I think it would be unfortunate if sufficient advantage were not taken of Andries offer of compromise. Adding new material may or might bring to the fore other issues or disputes. I hope those issues can be dealt with on this page in a timely fashion, so that some lasting improvements can be made to the article. -- BostonMA 13:24, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
BostonMA, I think that it would be easier if we discussed the definitions already established on Wikipedia, regarding a Neutral Point of View NPOV. Once we come to a consensus on what is considered "neutral", based on Wikipedia's established definitions, I think that would positively facilitate this discussion, as the main point of contention has do with a NPOV.
To me, "balanced" means that there is equal opportunity for each POV to be expressed. In this regard, the percentage issue, in my opinion, is irrelevant. For example, Andries may be able to cite numerous sources, writing many paragraphs, about alleged molestations. However, the Pro-Sai POV can be easily summarized in several sentences. Although the amount of space dedicated to each is disproportionate, as long as there is equal opportunity to fully express an opposing POV, then I believe the article could be considered to be "balanced".
However, the issue of "neutrality" completely changes everything. For something to be "neutral", it cannot be aligned with, or supportive, to one side of a dispute or discussion. Therefore, in my opinion, one of the hallmarks of a "neutral" article is that the percentage of text devoted to Pro/Con viewpoints is fairly equal, around 50/50. If an article is over 65% devoted to an issue, I would suspect the "neutrality" of the article (unless reasons were given). This is the standard I think most would expect from an Encyclopedia that provides factual information that is not based on subjective opinions and unconfirmed allegations.
To specifically answer you question: between 60% - 40% (or vice versa) is the range I consider to be neutral.
SSS108 23:52, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I would argue that you may be going in the wrong direction with this. The questions by BonstonMA, as I see it, are questions to help him understand your positions as it pertains to your concept of "balanced". Jumping to procedural actions, at this point is highly premature and IMO, dangerous, as it displaces the non-negotiable principle of NPOV with an arbitrary assessment of "balanced". For example, one side is remind in us the WP:NPOV principle of undeue weight, in which it is stated that "Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views", but fails to address what minority means in this context.
Here is a list of post-2000 retuable media or scholarly articles in English language that should serve as a guideline to determine the fraction of criticism in the article Sathya Sai Baba.
Andries 20:12, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
The unweighted average of these articles based on the above list is
This leads to an unweighted of average 47% 48.3%.
SSS108, in Wikipedia minority point of views deserve minority space. This is clearly and explicitly stated in the Wikipedia:NPOV policy. Andries 20:22, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I would like to ask a question on the side. It sounds as though you are arguing that a neutral and balanced Wikipedia article ought to have the same proportion of criticism as a newspaper or magazine article or scholarly article. Is that your position? If so, could you raise some arguments that might overcome my reluctance to accept that? My reluctance with regard to media is that media follow trends, what is "in the news", and this changes over time. My reluctance with regard to scholarly articles, is that a common criteria for a scholarly article to be considere worthy of publication is that it contains new or unpublished results, not that it provides an balanced overview of the subject. Thus, I would be reluctant to consider scholarly papers as a general models for encyclopedia articles. Perhaps I have raised concerns unnecessarily, but if it is your position that an encyclopedia article ought to have the same proportion of criticism as a media article or a scholarly article, then please help me to overcome my reservations. -- BostonMA 20:27, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
It is true that the media change over time and the list of media articles and scholarly articles that I made hereunder shows only the last 6 years, that is post 2000/Bailey's The Findings that was a major turning point in the debates about SSB. I think six years is long of a time frame to give a balanced over view. I do not see other fair and reasonable criteria to make a NPOV article. What criteria do you suggest? Andries 20:46, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
...This leads to an unweighted of average 47% 48.3%. Based on this, I think that following the
Wikipedia:NPOV means that we devote this percentage to the treatment of criticism and controvery.
Andries 20:33, 4 February 2006 (UTC) (amended, BBC documentary and Danish Radio documentary)
...Well, I did not not do a word count, but that was just a rough guess. AND AGAIN AGAIN I HAVE BEEN TELLING YOU OVER AND OVER AGAIN THAT IT DOES NOT MATTER FOR WIKIPEDIA THAT YOU CONSIDER THE MEDIA AND SCHOLARS BIASED. HERE IN WIKIPEDIA WE FOLLOW MEDIA AND SCHOLARLY ARTICLES. Andries 21:32, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
For example, one side is remind in us the WP:NPOV principle of undeue weight, in which it is stated that "Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views", but fails to address what minority means in this context. If, for example, Britney Spears sells 10,000,000 albums, and on the other hand a few music critics state in published sources that her music is below standards, what is the majority position in this case, the one of the fans that clearly thing otherwise about her music, or the one of her critics? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:37, 4 February 2006 (UTC)#
Since when did the Anti-Sai POV become a majority opinion? SSB has millions of followers and there are no more than 50 or 60 people who openly oppose him. There are currently about 12-15 Anti-Sai Activists who are actively writing against him. Therefore, if anyone has a minority POV, it is Anti-Sai Activists.
SSS108 23:52, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
That is the point I am making Jossie. Of course, the Anti-Sai POV should be included in the article. However, Andries just said, as he has said many times before, that the Pro-Sai POV is a Minority POV. It isn't. Therefore, the article should reflect the Majority POV, which happens to be favorable.
SSS108 00:14, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, provide us with a link to the article you are speaking about. If you are talking the same Beliefs And Practices that I just looked at, it cites non-notable people like Steel, Dadlani and the original research of Priddy. It also links to Anti-Sai Sites.
SSS108 00:40, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
(text here moved to source materials)
The reason why I disregarded LIMF is because I do not have the book and I have problems ordering it. I will try to order the book this weekend in a bookshop that is specialized in importing Indian books. User:Andries11:46, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
As for the sources mentioned by Andries, please note that these are just a fraction of material published about this person. I saw In the library at least 10 books, if not more, not mentioned above in which this subject is explored. One can argue that the list he produced is a list of articles that explores the critical/controverial aspects of this person. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @
Brian Steel and Alexandra Nagel openly oppose Sathya Sai Baba. They are critics and their viewpoints are not neutral. Andries wants to cite Brian Steel simply because Alexandra Nagel made reference to him in one of her papers. Other than Nagel, there are no notable references that cite Steel. If either of these individuals did not profess being Anti-Sai, then maybe one could make a case for neutrality based on objective research. However both of them have openly admitted being Anti-Sai Activists and their research is dedicated to that end. Therefore, citing them is promoting an Anti-Sai POV.
SSS108 23:36, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, make us a list of neutral scholars against SSB? So far, you can only cite Nagel and you attempt to include Steel by association, (since he was referenced by Nagel in one of her papers). Both Steel and Nagel are not neutral. Neither Steel or Nagel have any qualifications or credentials that entitle them to be called "scholars" in regards to SSB. Steel may be a scholar in Spanish and Nagel may become a scholar once she gets her MA this year or next year. Once again, Steel and Nagel openly oppose SSB. They are not neutral. So even if you call them scholars, their neutrality is totally disputed. How do Steel and Nagel support a NPOV?
SSS108 01:27, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, how does Alexandra Nagel's article come close to Wikipedia's neutral point of view? She is antagonistic against Sathya Sai Baba. As SSS108 and I keep saying, she is not neutral. You keep defending Alexandra Nagel's "scholarly" article, but you have yet to defend her neutrality. That's because she has publicly stated being against Sathya Sai Baba for almost 13/14 years. Thaumaturgic 02:44, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I will say this one more time, but no more. The discussion about this purported "scholarly" article by an ex-follower is inconsequential in light of dozens of published books on the subject that are neither mentioned nor cited in the current article. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:15, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I gave you a partial list of books above. I would also make one point clear: I do not have a POV about the subject of this article, as I only heard about this person here in Wikipedia, and I am not here defending the POV of anyone. My only concern is that we make this article readable and informative. As it stands now this article is a great example of what a good and NPOV article is not. My concern is that in the mediation process, this does not get forgotten: we are here to write an article that complies with Wikipedia content's policies and not just to accommodate editor's opposing views. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:25, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Schulman did not write a biography. Okay, so there is a contradiction about SSB's birthdate. SSB's birthdate does not comprise his entire biography. And LIMF cited reasons for the discrepancy regarding the birthdate, but Anti-Sai Sites, including yours, never mentioned it: Reference Are these all your "many contradicting sources"? If they are, I think we can reasonably assume that a good biographical summary can be written leaving aside these few issues.
SSS108 19:45, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Conveying a "gist" is not the same as mentioning the reasons for the discrepancy, as cited in LIMF. Brain Steel did not make reference to LIMF's statements about the discrepancy, so my statement still stands.
SSS108 22:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries already said that personal homepages and original research violate wikipedia guidelines. When Andries agreed to remove personal homepages, he also removed the personal homepage of Brian Steel. Now, however, he is trying his hardest to reference him. Andries, besides the Anti-Sai Activist Nagel, where are the other reputable, notable and mainstream media sources that have referenced Brian steel?
SSS108 16:23, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, I never contended that my website and my views were notable or accepted by mainstream media. Remember, YOU were the one who began attributing the viewpoints to me. Then YOU began to reference all the viewpoints with your personal homepages. I did the same. And do tell us how Robert Priddy and Basava Premanand argue for a NPOV? if you can use Priddy and Premanand's books, then I will rebut using Hislop, Sandweiss, Kasturi and others books.
SSS108 18:06, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, they are notable. Unlike Steel and Badaev. You did not answer my question: How do Priddy or Premanand argue for a NPOV?
SSS108 18:14, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
He is not a neutral source. He is a skeptic, rationalist, atheist and a self-admitted critic of SSB since 1968 (using the BBC Documentary information). What reputable media has cited his book?
SSS108 19:49, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
This section will contain conversational items that have limited value outside of their conversational context. I will place them here so that parties may examine them. Unless objections are raised to the deletion of items appearing here, they will be deleted on a regular basis.
Intro
Please discuss the pros and cons of merging one or more subtopic articles into the main SSB article.
Thanks. -- BostonMA 16:40, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries response does not explain why he wants to add links to all the Anti-Sai Sites. For example, he cites Robert Priddy. Instead of citing Priddy's site, he cites every single Anti-Sai Site that simply duplicated Priddy's articles on theirs. Why does Andries do this?
SSS108 03:09, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, you failed to address the points I made above about the duplicate links on SaiGuru.net and the duplicate content from Priddy and Steel's site. The point is that if the references are so scattered throughout these sites, how are people supposed to find them and see the relevance to the topic? They can't.
SSS108 03:16, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Comment by Andries on Jossi's proposal: I cannot write a good detailed biography because I do not have reputable sources and the sources that I do have contradict each other. It would help if I have the 1997 book by Brian Steel and the 2000/2001? Love is My Form book by Padmanaban (sp.?) that I have ordered, but these sources also contradict each other. Andries 19:02, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The biography needs to be written based on available reputable sources. Period. As BostonMA said and per WP:NPOV it is possible to write that ecyclopedia A says this, book B says this and article D says this. Rather than "hilarious," it would be interesting (and encyclopedic) to read the diversity of POVs. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:22, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, where did Brian Steel write a biography on SSB? Brian Steel wrote a compendium. There is a difference between a compendium and a biography. Strange you would bring Brian Steel up regarding SSB's biography. You never did before. Kasturi and Murphet wrote biographies as well as Sai Towers.
SSS108 03:29, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I will ask others to help with the biography because I cannot do it alone in a reasonable period of time, due to many contradicting sources, none of which are reputable. Andries 19:14, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, we already discussed this. You keep up bringing up "highly contradicting sources", but the contradictions you name are not even a handful. Futhermore, you keep trying to compare biographical informatation with books that were never biographies in the first place. Steel's book is not a biography. It's a compendium. Schulman's book was not a biography either. SSB's basic biography is consistent. His devotees never recorded SSBs life thinking that they had to preserve every fact for some sort of historical narrative. Although some dates don't mesh, the stories are still the same.
SSS108 02:47, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is always a work in progress. There is noting wrong with getting the bio section started with whatever published sources are available. If new sources are fond we can add these and if there is competing info, we can descibe these as well. I see no issue with this. My proposal to start with published sources first, and leave websites for later, as published material maybe less actualized, but at least is readers can easily assess reputability of these sources. For those aspects not available in published material, I have no problem in referring reputable online sources. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 04:04, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
That is not the reason you gave for deleting the section. Your reason for deleting the section was because you wanted it referenced and you do not want to use Kasturi's hagiography as a reference (although an Encyclopedia of Religions cited Kasturi as a reference in their 4 volume set) [12] Although Steel, Priddy, Premanand have never been cited in an Encyclopedia, you say they are "reputable" sources and you try to include their non-notable works in this article. However, when Kasturi and Sandweiss are referenced in an official Encyclopedic reference, you argue that they should not be referenced because they wrote hagiographies and are not "reputable". Your standards are hardly consistent.
SSS108 18:16, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
BostonMA, there is already a large section devoted to SSB's teachings: Beliefs and Practices On the Main Page, SSB's Teachings are summarized into 4 paragraphs, with a link that goes to the full article. However, when it comes to Critics and Opposition, on the Main Page, there are 19 paragraphs and a separate article on the Allegations Against Sathya Sai Baba that is composed of 32 paragraphs. Tell me something is not wrong.
SSS108 17:41, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, you are misunderstanding, BostonMA. On the Main Page, long sections are summarized in a few paragraphs, with a link going to a separate page with the full article. However, this is not what is being done with the Critics section, although a separate page exists! The Critics section comprises about 50% of the Main Article and then has another page, on the "Allegations Against Sathya Sai Baba" page, that discusses the same material more in depth. If other sections are summarized on the Main Article with links going to separate pages, why can't the same be done with the Critics section? Why have 2 pages dedicated to the same material to begin with? This has been done for the past 14 months without complaint.
SSS108 18:54, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
BostonMA, I do not know why SSB's Teachings are summarized and linked to a separate page. I also do not know why SSB's History and Origins are summarized and linked to a separate page. From what I understand, since these subjects are lengthy, they are summarized on the Main Page and are linked to the indepth article. However, when it comes to the Critics section, it is not summarized on the Main Page although there is another in depth page that is devoted to the issue: Allegations against Sathya Sai Baba
Andries was the person who created all these separate pages. I see no problem summarizing and linking to an in depth article. However, Andries has made the full case against SSB not only on the Main Article, but also on the Allegations against Sathya Sai Baba page (yes, the contain the same information). Why isn't the Critics section summarized on the main page, like the other sections (with a link to the in depth article)? Even if this was done, there is still the issue of bias and the promotion of an Anti-Sai POV through the referenced links. But that a different discussion.
SSS108 22:41, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
No, I have no objection.
SSS108 03:33, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Then would you be willing to put some effort into expanding the non-critical sections during the next two weeks? -- BostonMA 13:41, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes. However, the non-critical sections can easily be expanded by taking available information on the in-depth, linked articles and putting it back on the Main Page. It seems to me that the majority of non-controversial information is already there. So how would you suggest to approach the situation?
SSS108 16:18, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
BostonMA. I do not believe this has been discussed. (some text removed by BostonMA 03:25, 9 February 2006 (UTC))
SSS108 17:59, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Jossi, do you believe that 4 paragraphs on the "teachings" section is sufficient for the primary article? -- BostonMA 18:55, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, BostonMA. Personally, nothing has happened that I did not expect. My arguments are still the same. It seems, however, that everyone does not object to the Teachings section being listed on a separate page. I feel the same way you do about the Teachings section. Undoubtedly, it requires more work. I think the article can be improved with time. Nevertheless, the main points of contention revolve around the Critics Section: Content, References, Links, Notable Sources, etc. I don't think anyone is debating the content on the Teachings section or other sections. Our disagreements revolve around the controversy. Do you still want us to work on the content on other sections, when they are not the contentious issues?
SSS108 02:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
As a clarification, I do not object to merging back content from related articles. The caveat was, that if these are too long, these can be summarized and the main content kept on a separate article. The focus of the article should be on the biographical aspects of this person. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, once again, you keep using the word "reputable". You keep demanding that all the articles be "reputable", yet when I asked you to define that word, you couldn't do it [13] That is why no one can understand where you are coming from and what you are demanding. You attempt to set a certain standard known to you alone. You also expect others to understand this standard although you are incapable of communicating it.
So once again, you need to define "reputable". Until you do so, no will understand what exactly you are asking for.
SSS108 18:04, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, the definition for "reputable" has every place here. Why? Because you keep demanding that sources be "reputable" (so far, you have used this word 23 times on this page alone). Although citing Kasturi and Sandweiss would clearly fall into Wikipedia:Reliable_sources, you are arguing against them. Then you argue in favor of Brian Steel although mentioning him would clearly not fall into Wikipedia:Reliable_sources. Since you keep demanding that sources be "reputable", one would think you would know what you are demanding.
SSS108 20:33, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, then tell me how Kasturi and Sandweiss would not be considered reputable sources when they were cited in the 4 volume "Religions Of The World: A Comprehensive Encyclopedia Of Beliefs And Practices" by J. Gordon Melton and Martin Baumann? Morton Klass (who is a well published author in college references) has also written about SSB in "Reinventing Religions: Syncretism and Transformation in Africa and the Americas". Klass cited Kasturi, Murphet and Sandweiss. In "Redemptive Encounters : Three Modern styles in the Hindu Tradition", by Lawrence A. Bapp, he also cites Kasturi. If all these well published and notable sources reference Kasturi, Sandweiss and Murphet, tell me how, by citing these three, it would violate Wikipedia:reliable sources?
Then in contrast, you seek the inclusion of Brian Steel, Robert Priddy and Basava Premanand as references although they have never been cited in notable references or publications.
SSS108 21:03, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Who is asking that their experiences be stated as facts? I am not aware of anyone making that claim. Why are you limiting the references to Kasturi and Sandweiss to the "Beliefs and Practices" page when the "Beliefs and Practices" page is not dependent on Kasturi or Sandweiss as references? Kasturi and Sandweiss are notable references that have been used in college references and even in a Religion Encyclopedia regarding SSB's life. Therefore, a section will be written about SSB's bibliography, citing Kasturi because if these notable publications can cite Kasturi, I see no reason why Wikipedia can't.
SSS108 21:34, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
I have already asked this question and did not receive a reply. On the "Issues to address before moving forward" section [14], Andries and Thaumatugic were asked a question and I cannot find Andries response. Did Andries ever provide a response to the question asked? This question was asked 6 days ago.
Also, under the "Links in Beliefs and practices article" [15], Andries was asked to give some examples of beliefs and practices as described in the referenced links. Did Andries ever answer this question?
If the questions have been answered, then I wouldn't mind that this section be deleted. I just noticed that Andries has written many replies in the past week and these questions seem to go unanswered. I wanted to know why. Thanks.
SSS108 18:30, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
The Reliable Sources policy begins with the statements:
As I read these paragraphs, they seem to me to be saying several things:
Put another way, as I read this, the policy does not forbid adding useful information which is unsupported by credible references, but allows such material to be removed.
What I would like to know from each of the parties is the answers to the following question:
Do you understand the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia as I have described them, or do you understand the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia differently?
Thank-you for your responses (and I apologize again for my absense) -- BostonMA 20:51, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
If there are no reputable sources about this subject, then maybe this article needs to be deleted altogether. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:53, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, you already admitted that these "reputable" sources are biased. Once again, you are using the word "reputable". However, I have discussed this several times and you do not even know what you mean by using the word "reputable". Even after admitting this, you continue to use the word "reputable" to defend your POV. The sources you want to cite do not advocate for a NPOV. Not only that, the references you cite are many years old and nothing has come about from them.
Andries, Jossie's point is well taken. You keep saying there are no reputable sources for SSB. Why should we have an article about SSB if there are no reputable references?
SSS108 21:13, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, no one is trying to get it deleted. You are the one making the case that there are no "reputable" resources about SSB, except the critcism against him. If that is truly the case, then one could argue that the article should be deleted on the premise of your arguement, i.e., there are no reputable resources about him. Why keep an article that has no reputable resources? After all, that is the case you are trying to make.
SSS108 21:28, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
It is my contention that you are wrong about reliable references. It is also my contention that the critics section, as it is currently written, is not neutrally written and violates a NPOV. That is why we are here. SSS108 21:40, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
The critics section is filled with personal opinions. The sources you cite are biased (by your own admission). You cite non-reputable/non-notable personal homepages, including your own. You cite non-reputable/non-notable people including Brain Steel, Robert Priddy, Hari Sampath, Said Khorramshahgol and Glen Meloy. You cite non-reputable/non-notable articles written by Alexandra Nagel (ex. Shiva Shakti Article, which has never been cited by reputable sources), citing the gold control article without any reliable and neutral references (court case documents, etc.). The critics section also violates an NPOV by linking all the references to Anti-Sai Sites when they were not originally published on them. The list goes on and on.
A rebuttal can be made considering that nothing has come from any of these allegations: No court cases, no indictments, nothing. The rebuttals are easy to state and can be made succintly. SSS108 22:14, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
th your assertion that they are not reputable or not notable. Andries 23:56, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, it was reverted because you kept deleting the devotees and proponents section without a discussion. Also, you should cite from those articles. Just because Nagel managed to get one paper published in a University magazine does not make all of her articles reputable or notable. Just because she had one paper published, you try to include all her opinions and articles. That is deceptive, in my opinion. Everything you say exclusively favors your point of view. Thaumaturgic 01:19, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, you need to show us the reputable media that has pubished these "updated international versions" of Shiva Shakti and A guru accused. You cannot deem what is reputable based on your opinions. You need to reference the published sources, in reputable media, referencing these two articles. So far, the only published paper was "De Sai Paradox". You cannot provide any reputable sources that make reference to the alleged "updated international versions" to the other 2 articles.
SSS108 02:44, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Regarding Glen Meloy, none of the comments attributed to him, on the Main Page, were mentioned in the Divine Downfall Interview [16] No where in this article does Glen Meloy accuse SSB "of being a cult leader who uses mind control, and propaganda and who has created a personality cult". Show us the references?
SSS108 02:22, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
(moved from my talk page) ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:33, 12 February 2006 (UTC) With regards to Sathya Sai Baba, 48% of the space of reputable (both scholarly and media) post-2000/post Bailey articles deal with the criticsm and controversy. If this is not reflected in the Wikipedia article then this breaks Wikipedia:NPOV policy and gives undue weight to proponents. Can you please give a detailed rebuttal to this argument? Of course, it is important to describe beliefs and practices and basic background information and this is what I have done. Thanks. Andries 22:49, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Jossi, you wrote "As it stands now this article is a great example of what a good and NPOV article is not.". Where does the article break the NPOV policy? I had already asked you twice to specify where the article breaks the NPOV policy, but you gave no answer. I believe you have the best intentions, but I do not think that it is helpful to refer to general policies and guidelines to an experienced Wikipedia contributor, like myself, without trying to be more specific how and where they should be applied for this article. Andries 14:43, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
I do not oppose a discussion of Nagel as source (this is by the way incorrectly in the Wikipedia namespace, instead of the user space) as long as we also discuss other sources too. Can we please also start a discussion of Moreno as a source? What bothers me is the double standards used by Moreno for inclusion and exclusion of sources, as I had already stated some time ago. Moreno is very critical of Nagel, but if we appply only a fraction of his critical attitude that he shows for Nagel to his homepage then there can be no doubt that his homepage should not be used as a source. Andries 15:11, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries was the person who attributed opinions to me that were/are not dependent on me or my site. I am simply demanding that as long as Anti-Sai personal homepages (including Andries Anti-Sai personal homepage) remain in the article, so should mine. Remove the personal homepages of Anti-Sai Activists and I will gladly and promptly remove mine without complaint. SSS108 02:16, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
At one point, Andries asked me on my talk page:
To which I responded:
That was on Jan 12. Since I did not here back, I tended to interpret that as a passive "no I do not object", although it is possible that someone might feel uncomfortable objecting. However, since the subject has been rekindled, I think it ought to be discussed in an open forum.
Jossi is not an official party to the mediation. At the same time Jossi has been active in the discussions around SSB. (Jossi is also involved in discussions with Andries on other topics). The other parties may welcome Jossi's involvement, or they may or not. I would like the parties to express their opinions regarding what role Jossi ought to play in the mediation if any. I will state up front what I will do with these statements. If anyone states that they do not want Jossi involved in any way, then I will ask Jossi to refrain from participating. If everyone accepts Jossi's participation, but any party expresses the opinion that Jossi ought to be a party to the mediation, I will ask Jossi to be a party to the mediation. If there are other proposals, I will consider them.
Please express your opinions regarding the role Jossi ought to play in this mediation. Please discuss other topics elsewhere. -- BostonMA 04:15, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I have decide to abstain from participating in this mediation from now on. If any party would want my help with sources, or as a sounding board for specific proposals, do not hesitate to drop me a line on my talk page, or send me an email. Good luck, and hope you can find a way forward that works for everybody. I leave you in the capable hands of BostonMA your mediator, from which I have learned a lot about how to handle conflict resolution, by just observing the way he has handled this tricky project so far. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Providing reference is a lot of work: often I have read something but do not remember where. Can we please agree that we do not ask for references if we do not want a certain statement in the article anyway, regardless if references are provided? Thanks. Andries 12:56, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, why haven't you answered the questions in mediation? It is coming up on 2 weeks and you adamantly refuse not only to answers the questions in mediation, you adamantly refuse to give any explanation why you refuse to answer the questions in mediation. On your talk page, the mediator reminded you to answer the questions. On your talk page, I asked you to answer the questions. I also kindly asked you to give a reason for not responding. See Andries Talk Page You refuse to give any answers and choose to stay silent. You promised the mediator that you would answer the questions the past weekend. You did not. See BostonMA Talk Page It is time for you come forward and state why you refuse to answer the mediation questions. You have lots of time to watch the articles to see who edits them. You have lots of time to revert the articles and make long rebuttals about the Salon.com article. You have lots of time time to make comments. But you have no time for the mediation questions. Why? I would like to know. SSS108 talk- email 17:37, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
BostonMA, I am unaware how the mediation/arbitration process works (this is the first time I have participated in one, or even seen one in action). Honestly, I do not know what the next step is. It is undeniable that Andries behavior has me confused and leads me to suspect that he is the one who is seeking arbitration (after all, he has threatened to request their intervention). I have made no such comments or threats about arbitration and have continually asked Andries to participate in mediation (as can be seen in my numerous comments above). So if you think I am seeking arbitration, you are mistaken. Read the discussion and you will see that the only person who is avoiding mediation and who is threatening to file a request with the arbitration committee is Andries.
If Andries is not feeling well or is too busy to answer the mediation questions, why doesn't he just say so? After repeatedly asking him why he refuses to participate, no answers have been forthcoming. He simply said once, that he was tired on Sunday and Monday and that is why he did not respond. However, Andries recent activity shows he has plenty of time to engage in edits, reverts and arguments, but has no time for mediation.
BostonMA, I have already conceded that my name and website should not be listed on the article. I am only insisting that my website be left in the article until Anti-Sai Websites (including Andries) are removed as well. Let us be clear on that. As a matter of fact, it was Andries who attributed viewpoints to me that were not dependent on me or my website. After Andries started referencing Anti-Sai Sites, Thaumaturgic did the same. When Andries started demanding that personal website references be removed from the site, he shot himself in the foot because this would mean he would have to remove his personal website references as well. He is unwilling to remove Anti-Sai website references (including his own), so I am unwilling to remove mine. I have shown, in word and deed, my commitment to the mediation process. I have not made any comments about arbitration (unlike Andries). I do not know how this standstill is to be resolved and that is why I made a complaint to you, not the arbitration committee. SSS108 talk- email 00:36, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
BostonMA, once the wikipedia article for SSB is neutral and fair, that page will definitely be updated. That page was started a while back when I decided I could no longer participate in editing the article due to the fact that nothing I submitted was accepted. Therefore, I gave voice to what I considered systematic bias from Andries (an Anti-Sai Activist who, at that time, was claiming to be the webmaster to the largest Anti-Sai Site on the net). It is also important to point out that I had requested mediation at the time and nothing came out from it. Also, nothing on my page about Andries is incorrect. All my comments, in my opinion, are fully backed up and expose what I see as Andries systematic bias (even though he claims to be neutral enough to edit this article). My page about him proves he is not neutral and cannot edit this article neutrally. Andries has had many months to challenge my page. He has not done so. However, since you brought this up, I will remove the links from my talk and personal wiki pages. SSS108 talk- email 02:33, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Amazing how Andries does not understand the Indian Skeptic article, written in English, but has no problem trying to reference it as a source against SSB. Whether or not Premanand used innuendo is highly relevant and a very important question. Our answers to this question give insights into our ideas on what constitutes fair, neutral and factual data. In my opinion, this question is one of the most important questions asked. Almost 2 weeks later, Andries says he doesn't understand it. SSS108 talk- email 19:46, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Andries, I have reasons for my all my comments about you. On Wikipedia, others share my sentiments about you as well. Premanand is cited on your Anti-Sai Site. Premanand is cited on your friend's Anti-Sai Sites. You actively defend Premanand. You actively defend Premanand's anonymous "Betrayal" letter (despite never researching it). You actively defend Premanand's "Gold Control Act", despite it never being published, in full, on the internet. You actively defend everything against SSB and raise a huge wail when it comes to including favorable material. Your actions and words have influenced my perception of you. The questions are really simple: Did Premanand use innuendo? Did Premanand factually prove that SSB influenced the judiciary? Yes or no? SSS108 talk- email 22:03, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Andries, how do you know the article is not an op-ed? You told Jossie that you weren't even going to check! It doesn't matter if Goldberg was at the ashram or not. Her entire article was slanted against SSB and she told Glen Meloy that she wrote the article hoping to bring attention to his cause. I am objecting to the wording, not the reputability of salon.com. Goldberg did not investigate any cases of "boys" being abused. She simply repeated that claim, as made by Anti-Sai Activists. This hardly qualifies her as a source for supporting the claim that SSB sexually abused "boys". You tenaciously hold on to Goldberg and Premanand to make your case that SSB is alleged to have abused "boys", yet you lack any solid references that SSB did abuse "boys". Not even one testimony from a child or a parent of a child. Not even one reputable source that ever privately investigated it and was willing to make that claim. Not even one! You are drawing inferences from comments. Goldberg never claimed that SSB did sexually abuse boys. She said Anti-Sai's believed that. SSS108 talk- email 19:17, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Let us look at Michelle Goldberg's references to "boys", since Andries is obviously failing to understand my POV: Only 4 references to "boys": Salon.com Article Written By Michelle Goldberg:
Michelle Goldberg did not document any cases of "boys" being abused. "Males", yes. She repeated the stories told to her to Geyerhan and Sampath. Goldberg's talk about the "stories being endless" is her personal bias that she admitted when writing the article to bring attention to Glen Meloy's "struggle". It is clear that the word "boys" refers to gender (not age-wise as "boys" is a term for a child 12 years of age or younger) as she specifically followed her comment by saying "mid-teens to their mid-20s". Hari Sampath also boasted to Brian Steel that he was responsible for the Salon.com article. Michelle did not document any cases of boys being abused, so if you insist on using that word, this fact must be mentioned as well as the age range she gave. SSS108 talk- email 06:04, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Andries, this is exactly the problem with you. Michelle Goldberg expressed her opinions and gave the Salon.com her slant and bias and you see absolutely nothing wrong in citing the article because it is "notable". Once it comes to a slant and bias in favor of SSB, from the "notable" New York Times, you start saying we must exclude it. There is your bias and double-standards in action, out of your own mouth. If Goldberg and her bias are allowed to be cited, then I see no reason why Keith Bradsher and his bias cannot similary be cited. The New York Times is even more "notable" than Salon.com. SSS108 talk- email 02:29, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
The alleged "blunders" are your perception of them. Keith Bradsher's article is going to be cited. Despite your own admission that Tanya Datta and Michelle Goldberg was biased and favored Anti-Sai Activists, you continually say that their bias can be cited as a "fact" because it was published in notable and reputable sources. Using your own logic, it doesn't matter if Keith Bradsher made alleged "blunders" or not, since it was published in a notable and reputable source, it can be stated as a "fact". You said it. Stop using double-standards. SSS108 talk- email 05:23, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Boston, I know what information will more than likely be edited out. However, I will also go about deleting links to personal homepages that are used as references. All those referenced links that go to the partison, biased, controversial and personal homepages of Anti-Sai Activists will be deleted because they violate the policies in Reliable Sources. You see, the edit wars will resume unless we get certain things resolved in mediation first. If Andries wants to begin editing out information in the article, so will I. SSS108 talk- email 20:27, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Go ahead and revert Andries. I think it is clear that when the referenced links go to your Anti-Sai Site and reload into a framed page (preventing people from using the "back" key), this directly solicits your partison, biased, controversial and personal homepage. That is why we came to mediation. You are the one who is refusing to participate in the mediation. Therefore, I will stand my ground and it is my firm conviction that I am correct. Reference the sources either to their original sites or do not provide a link at all. After all Wikipedia is not supposed to be a "mere collection of links"...especially when those links go directly to a site the exclusively and wholly opposes Sathya Sai Baba that you happen to be the "Main Representative, Supervisor and Contact" for. SSS108 talk- email 21:14, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Not when those "online sources" are on a partison, biased, controversial and personal homepage. Show me Wikipedia policy that states linking to controversial sites is okay. Teach me the "subtleties of Wikipedia policy" that promotes the bias of controversial sites, such as yours? For your information, your Anti-Sai Site (and the Anti-Sai Sites of your friends) ARE partison, biased, controversial and biased. Once again "preferable" does not mean it is mandatory. Either we attempt to get a neutral third opinion about this from BostonMA, and resolve this in mediation or take our risks by going through arbitration. SSS108 talk- email 21:34, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Not when it links to a partison, biased, controversial or personal website. Continue to rant, rave and avoid mediation as much as you like. Wikipedia is not supposed to promote bias. Linking to your site promotes Anti-Sai bias. I am not going to repeat myself again. Go ahead with your edits. I will go ahead with mine. SSS108 talk- email 23:18, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for answering the questions. Even if it took 11 days for you to do so. SSS108 talk- email 01:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
(Discussion of websites moved to User:BostonMA/Mediation/Sathya Sai Baba/Use of Websites#Links to Documents on Websites) -- BostonMA 23:10, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
The parties have agreed on a process for removing inadequately sourced material. The mediator suggests that SSS108 place notices on the SSB talk page that he intends to remove the following materials after 48 hours, unless it can be shown that these materials were published by a reputable source. -- BostonMA 15:33, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
(the above items were taken from issues raised by SSS108. The mediator is not expressing agreement or disagreement with the claims made in this list.)
SSS108, please clarify your objection to the use of the Trouw article. Do you believe that Trouw is a reputable source? ( BostonMA 15:54, 26 March 2006 (UTC))
BostonMA, I am intending on removing this reference and have already waited several days to discuss this issue. Since Andries has not made an argument against mine, I surmise he doesn't have one. SSS108 talk- email 17:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I am not objecting to the reputability of the Trouw article. I am objecting to the way it is being used. Its use is deceitful, in my opinion, for the reasons just stated earlier. It does not factually document anything. So I believe it cannot be used as a reference for factual data. SSS108 talk- email 19:19, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
BostonMA, please do not do any effort to determine the reputability of Beyerstein's study published in the Indian CSICOP. The reason is that it is easy to bypass a direct treatment of this study by using Nagel's 1994 article published by the Free University of Amsterdam that has already been determined as a reputable source and that refers to this study. Andries 20:42, 2 April 2006 (UTC) (amended for grammar)
Please Note: This page has been heavily reorganized for readability
Pages associated with this mediation include:
Hello Andries. Before we jump into the disputes themselves, I would like to deal with some preliminary issues. You had agreed Talk:Sathya Sai Baba#Dispute resolution to mediation on a prior occasion. Please understand, however, that I am not an official mediator, just a volunteer. Under these circumstances, I would very much like you to express whether or not you are willing to have me as a mediator. (Please do so in the top section above). There are some other issues that I would like to discuss right at the start.
Prior to your original agreement to mediation, you raised concern that the process should be binding. I have no power of enforcement. I can however, make proposals that all parties abide by certain procedures. Agreement to these proposals would be voluntary, and it would be the right of wikipedians to treat such agreements as outside of normal Wikipedia jurisdiction. However, such agreements may have a moral authority, even if not an official one.
So, please consider whether you would agree to have me play the role of mediator, and indicate your agreement/disagreement above. Thanks -- BostonMA 13:50, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
In the mediator's opinion, the conflicts that occurred on the SSB and related pages prior to the start of mediation had a highly repetative character. The same or similar points would be raised again and again. Part of the reason why mediation seemed to become necessary is that the repetition of arguments seemed to have little or no effect toward resolving the conflicts. For this reason, the mediator has attempted to focus on a few issues until they are resolved, rather than to leave off a discussion whenever a new issue arose. For that reason, there is somewhat of a gap between the questions the mediator has raised, and the immediately disputed edit conflicts. The mediator does not want to discourage the parties from debating issues outside of those he has raised as formal questions. Nor does the mediator want to address every edit conflict immediately when it occurs. However, it has been argued that a "new" edit falls outside the scope of the current mediation. The mediator disagrees, and believes that the new edit conflicts are continuations of existing edit conflicts. Because the mediator has not focused on these questions, parties should not be accused of abandoning mediation merely on the grounds that discussion of edits is taking place on the talk pages of the article rather than on mediation pages. However, the mediator does not want to set a precedent in which parties believe that the mediator should not raise questions pertaining to certain edits on the grounds that these edits are "out of scope".
Please express your agreement or disagreement with this opinion of the mediator. Please discuss other issues elsewhere. -- BostonMA 20:55, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
One of the main editors for the SSB Wikipedia article is Andries. He is also the webmaster to the largest Anti-SSB Site on the internet, opposing SSB: hetnet.nl/~exbaba It is important to point out that Andries now claims, after a three year period, he is not the webmaster for the site. However, there is plenty of evidence to refute this claim: Reference As a matter of fact, Andries is now listing his position, on the hetnet.nl/~exbaba site, as being the "Main Representative, Supervisor and Contact". Therefore, his direct involvement, with the largest Anti-SSB site on the world wide web, is indisputable.
Andries has referenced the personal homepages of various Anti-SSB activists for over two years on the Main SSB article and about 14 months on the Allegations Against Sathya Sai Baba article. Andries never complained about personal homepages until my homepage was cited on the Main SSB article. Now Andries claims that personal homepages violate Wikipedia's guidelines. I have NO problem removing my name and webpages from the article. However, Andries is linking the references directly to Anti-SSB sites (including his own) in an attempt to promote his POV.
It is my contention that these actions do not promote a NPOV because the references (which were never originally published on Anti-Sai Sites) are linked to sites that specifically oppose Sathya Sai Baba. Therefore, I have insisted (to maintain fairness) that as long as Andries Anti-Sai Site is referenced, my Pro-Sai Site should be referenced as well. I have also asked that the references either be linked directly to their original sources or not linked at all (giving un-linked reference information instead).
Thaumaturgic originally submitted one paragraph to the Main SSB article Reference 2 Andries kept deleting this article and modifying it, attempting to undermine it. Then Andries started attributing the viewpoints to me Reference 3 After attributing the viewpoints to me, Andries claimed I am "non-notable" and repeatedly attempted to delete the entire Devotees and Proponents section. It is important to point out that the one paragraph was/is not dependent on me or my views. The paragraph contained statements of fact that sum up the Devotees and Proponents POV. It is also my contention that Andries is guilty of POV Pushing. He is willing to go to great lengths to add anything negative to the article but consistently waters down, modifies or deletes any positive material.
One example (out of many) is when Andries cited LIMF (The unofficial biography of SSB, Love Is My Form) as a "reputable" reference to support opposing information against SSB. After stating LIMF is "reputable", Andries completely disregards LIMF when it comes to Pro-Sai material in the book.
I am not the only person to have problems with Andries. There are many other editors who have had numerous problems with him. For example, you can view the Guru Talk Page and the Prem Rawat Talk Page.
I suggest that a couple of paragraphs be added to the Main SSB page that fairly and neutrally summarizes the SSB Controversy. Then I ask that the NPOV be enforced with other SSB related articles, including the "Allegations Against Sathya Sai Baba" article.
I would like to make it clear that I am not seeking to eliminate or suppress the Anti-SSB POV. You can verify this from my edits. At no time have I ever deleted the Anti-SSB POV or modified it in any significant way.
Thank you for volunteering to moderate. I am optimistic that only good can come from this and I look forward to working together with you to make the SSB Wikipedia Articles neutral, fair and balanced.
SSS108 05:27, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
BostonMA, I would also like to thank you for volunteering to mediate. If you do not mind, I would rather watch the discussion and add occasional comments. I do not want Andries to feel that he is being ganged up upon by SSS108 and me. SSS108 is much more familiar with the material in question than I. This Wikipedia article is prejudiced and is promoting an antagonistic point of view, against Sathya Sai Baba. Andries is the person who is responsible for this bias. Any information added to the article must first pass his inspection, approval and edits. This is unfair and should not be allowed. Andries is openly antagonistic towards Sathya Sai Baba and maintains a high-ranking position on the Exbaba site. You can view the discussion I started when I added the Devotees and Proponents section [1] Like SSS108, I have not sought to eliminate the antagonistic point of view. With SSS108's help, I simply sought to include a Devotees and Proponents point of view. Who knew that one paragraph could evince such hostility? The problems with this article far exceeds the addition of a Devotees and Proponents point of view. I am committed to a neutral point of view and would like my voice counted as one, among many, opposing the bias in this article. Thaumaturgic 16:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
What I expect for this article and from mediation
1. Same standards for allowing sources and reference: if critics can only use peer reviewed articles and articles from reputable magazines and newspapers then apologists' material must follow the same standards. So I suggest setting a standard for inclusion and exclusion first. If apologists (like Moreno) can quote themselves from their non-notable homepages that contradict reputable sources, like the BBC and the Free university of Amsterdam then I (and other critics) can quote myself too from my non notable homepage that contradict reputable sources. The website www.exbaba.com, though I am affiliated with the website, is not my homepage: it is the homepage of the concerned Dutch former followers of SSB of which I am a member. Only a very small fraction of the website was authored by me. The only articles that were authored by me are my testimony “calumny confirmed”, a short translation and short comment about a SSB school in the Netherlands, my small outdated essay about “brainwashing” (that was first published on a yahoo group and then on
http://www.surrealist.org/betrayalofthespirit/index.html#cultsgeneral and only then on exbaba) and the compilation of the recovery section on exbaba. Exbaba has never been the website on which I can de jure or de facto voice my opinions, unlike the website of Gerald Joe Moreno/SSS108 and I have limited influence over its contents.
2. Clearly identified violations of Wikipedia policies should either be removed or improved within a week. We should not wait with improving or removing until “the other side” has followed all of Wikipedia policies and guidelines.
3. Main organization of the article should by subject or chronological, not per POV. We should not discuss Jens Sethi, or affidavits in two or three different places.
4. The discussion and space dedicated to criticism in this article should reflect the criticism in both mainstream media articles and scholarly articles since David Bailey’s publication of “The Findings” in the year 2000 that was a major turning point in the debates about SSB.
5. Facts and government actions should precede the opinions and internet wars between critics and apologists. The first clearly have more encyclopedic value.
With regards to my behavior in the past that involved using the homepages of Robert Priddy and Brian Steel as sources that may have violated the Wikipedia a bit I would like to say the following. Both Priddy and Steel have published books about SSB that could have been used as a source for this article. Using their outdated books as a source while not allowing their current homepages in which they refute their previous writings may break the Wikipedia policies literally, but clearly contradicts common sense and the Wikipedia policies do not treat such an exceptional case. Apart from that, Steel and Priddy have been favorably cited as a source by Alexandra Nagel who wrote an article published by the Free University of Amsterdam in 1994 about SSB. Thirdly, most of Priddy’s online work has been published in book from by Basava Premanand who is treated as an expert by the BBC in the documentary Secret Swami. You can check this in the transcript. Fourth, the writings of Steel and Priddy do not contradict the publications of reputable sources, like the BBC and Danish Radio, unlike the writings of Moreno, who basically writes among many other things that the investigative journalism by the BBC is flawed when writing about Rahm family. (I have some inside knowledge about the way the BBC worked and they omitted several testimonies by sexual abuse victims and choose to focus on the Rahm family, among others because everything had to be cramped in a one-hour documentary.)
Another thing with regards to the accusations of Moreno about my behavior that I should not have attributed statements to him. I think my behavior is clearly backed up by Wikipedia guidelines and policies.
Also Moreno/SSS108 confuses links to homepage with information or opinions sourced to homepages. The first latter is clearly discouraged or even forbidden by policy, but I have not seen any guideline or policy that says or discourages that linking to media articles published on homepages is forbidden or discouraged. If so, where do policies or guidelines say so? I admit, of course, that it is better to link directly to the BBC than to the anti-SSB websites
http://www.saiguru.net and
http://www.exbaba.com if the material is available online at the website of the BBC. I have already made a start with bypassing the anti-SSB websites saiguru.net and exbaba.com. I had not done this in the past, mainly because it was easier and more convenient for me to link to exbaba.com, not because I wanted to promote exbaba.com: after all I know the website quite well, but even I occasionally encounter something there of which I was not aware. If the material is only available on www.exbaba.com and www.saiguru.net then I think this justifies linking to these websites, because online references have clearly added value to the reader. Not everybody has access to a university library around the corner. Of course it become a different matter if those media article are interspersed with comments by the editors of exbaba, or apologist comments, but this is as far as I am aware not the case, with the exception of one article published in the Dutch newspaper
Trouw, mistranslated by the Dutch American Ella Evers. Probably most of the writings by Moreno cannot be sourced to any media article or scholarly sources. This is, I believe, an indication that Moreno wants to publish his original research in Wikipedia.
Moreno also seems to confuse neutrality with NPOV. Wikipedia is not neutral about the Flat earth theory, but it does follow NPOV policies. NPOV means following media and scholarly articles and opinions, not minimizing them or excluding them because they are non-neutral or "biased".
Further what I personally see as a major problem is that Moreno publishes all my e-mails on his homepage with all kinds of suggestive and misguided comments. How can I properly communicate with him if he behaves in such a way?
Andries 15:25, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Although the setting of ground rules might seem to be the first order of business, my instincts suggest that we try an experiment first. I think all parties agree that the article should be neutral and balanced, but opinions vary regarding what constitutes neutral and balanced. I would like, as the first order of business to do a little exploration to find out if there is room for agreement on some basic issues, such as the percentage of the main article that would need to be devoted to criticisms of SSB if that article were to be accepted as neutral and balanced by all parties. Its possible there is room for agreement, but it is also possible that the parties are far apart on this. So, I'd like to explore this a bit.
What I would like each of you to do is to answer the questions below. Please note that the questions are about a hypothetical article which is neutral and balanced. If you say that a neutral and balanced article would not have more than x percent of its space devoted to criticisms, that would not imply that if the current article has less than x percent then it is neutral, nor does it mean that if the current article were adjusted to have less than x percent that it would be neutral. What it means is that any article which has more than x percent would not be neutral. Please try to give justifications for your answers. For example,
Thank you in advance for indulging my request. -- BostonMA 16:40, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
1. If the main SSB article were neutral and balanced, it would not have more than what percentage of its space devoted to criticisms of SSB?
2. If the main SSB article were neutral and balanced, it would not have less than what percentage of its space devoted to criticisms of SSB?
I have not seen a response from Thaumaturgic regarding the acceptable high and low limits for the critical content of the main SSB article. However, Thaumaturgic had expressed previously an intention to "watch the discussion and add occasional comments", so I will not wait. I note that the high limit for SSS108 is 25%, which is the low limit of Andries. Unfortunately, there is not very much overlap. However, with the figures given, it would be theoretically possible for there to be a balanced article, which could be recognized as such by both parties (if we examine only this one aspect, namely the percentage of critical content).
What I would like to ask now are the following questions.
1. Approximately what percentage of the current article would you say is critical?
2. Can you agree as follows: If the the article is at any time over 40% critical, that you will refrain from adding further critical material?
3. If the answer to the above question is no, please explain why you feel you cannot agree to the previous item.
4. Please give a percentage such that if the critical material within the article ever rises above this level, you agree to refrain from adding further critical material.
Please note. The questions above are not asking whether you would consider an article which consisted of 40% critical material to be balanced. Rather, the questions ask about your own willingness to cease adding critical material.. -- BostonMA 02:56, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
OK, several issue have arisen that I think need to be addressed before moving forward.
Regarding the first item: Thaumaturgic and Andries, could you please give as best you are able, rationales for why you chose 20% and 25% respectively for your respective high and low limits. Please do not take too much time in your explanation. A paragraph or two will suffice. Also, please do not bother to argue against the other party's position at this time. Thanks.
Regarding the second item: Andries. I am sorry to hear that a friend of yours was close to suicide. I can understand your feelings about this. Other editors have not expressed to me their views regarding whether or not mention of the suicides belongs in the article. At this point I would like to put that question aside for the moment. But lets assume, for the sake of argument that the article should mention these suicides. If I understand your position, you believe the article to contain 63% critical material, and should not exceed 48.3%, leaving aside my proposal for a voluntary 40% cap. You also agree that the current percentages are excessive. My question to you is this. Do you need to add your additional critical material right now? Or can you wait until the article has become more balanced? Could you help to improve the balance first? I would very much appreciate it if you would give some thought to these questions, and share them here. -- BostonMA 03:45, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, why don't you explain why The Times left out David Bailey and Keith Ord's statements about 2 of the suicide victims? These two people are Anti-Sai Activists. Also, you have already said, numerous times, that the BBC, Danish Raido, etc., were biased against SSB and were favorably inclined towards Anti-Sai Activists. So you have already explained why they would speak out against SSB. They were biased. Even you admitted it.
SSS108 19:06, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries has agreed to not add new critical material to the main SSB article for a two week period. My suggestion is that, during these two weeks, in addition to the discussion which is taking place on this page, a strong effort is made to increase the content of the non-critical sections and/or add new sections. For example I would imagine that the "teachings" section could go into much greater depth. (I am far less familiar with the sources available, but I would guess that this is possible.)
I believe the discussion on this page should continue during the next two weeks. However, I think it would be unfortunate if sufficient advantage were not taken of Andries offer of compromise. Adding new material may or might bring to the fore other issues or disputes. I hope those issues can be dealt with on this page in a timely fashion, so that some lasting improvements can be made to the article. -- BostonMA 13:24, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
BostonMA, I think that it would be easier if we discussed the definitions already established on Wikipedia, regarding a Neutral Point of View NPOV. Once we come to a consensus on what is considered "neutral", based on Wikipedia's established definitions, I think that would positively facilitate this discussion, as the main point of contention has do with a NPOV.
To me, "balanced" means that there is equal opportunity for each POV to be expressed. In this regard, the percentage issue, in my opinion, is irrelevant. For example, Andries may be able to cite numerous sources, writing many paragraphs, about alleged molestations. However, the Pro-Sai POV can be easily summarized in several sentences. Although the amount of space dedicated to each is disproportionate, as long as there is equal opportunity to fully express an opposing POV, then I believe the article could be considered to be "balanced".
However, the issue of "neutrality" completely changes everything. For something to be "neutral", it cannot be aligned with, or supportive, to one side of a dispute or discussion. Therefore, in my opinion, one of the hallmarks of a "neutral" article is that the percentage of text devoted to Pro/Con viewpoints is fairly equal, around 50/50. If an article is over 65% devoted to an issue, I would suspect the "neutrality" of the article (unless reasons were given). This is the standard I think most would expect from an Encyclopedia that provides factual information that is not based on subjective opinions and unconfirmed allegations.
To specifically answer you question: between 60% - 40% (or vice versa) is the range I consider to be neutral.
SSS108 23:52, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I would argue that you may be going in the wrong direction with this. The questions by BonstonMA, as I see it, are questions to help him understand your positions as it pertains to your concept of "balanced". Jumping to procedural actions, at this point is highly premature and IMO, dangerous, as it displaces the non-negotiable principle of NPOV with an arbitrary assessment of "balanced". For example, one side is remind in us the WP:NPOV principle of undeue weight, in which it is stated that "Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views", but fails to address what minority means in this context.
Here is a list of post-2000 retuable media or scholarly articles in English language that should serve as a guideline to determine the fraction of criticism in the article Sathya Sai Baba.
Andries 20:12, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
The unweighted average of these articles based on the above list is
This leads to an unweighted of average 47% 48.3%.
SSS108, in Wikipedia minority point of views deserve minority space. This is clearly and explicitly stated in the Wikipedia:NPOV policy. Andries 20:22, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I would like to ask a question on the side. It sounds as though you are arguing that a neutral and balanced Wikipedia article ought to have the same proportion of criticism as a newspaper or magazine article or scholarly article. Is that your position? If so, could you raise some arguments that might overcome my reluctance to accept that? My reluctance with regard to media is that media follow trends, what is "in the news", and this changes over time. My reluctance with regard to scholarly articles, is that a common criteria for a scholarly article to be considere worthy of publication is that it contains new or unpublished results, not that it provides an balanced overview of the subject. Thus, I would be reluctant to consider scholarly papers as a general models for encyclopedia articles. Perhaps I have raised concerns unnecessarily, but if it is your position that an encyclopedia article ought to have the same proportion of criticism as a media article or a scholarly article, then please help me to overcome my reservations. -- BostonMA 20:27, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
It is true that the media change over time and the list of media articles and scholarly articles that I made hereunder shows only the last 6 years, that is post 2000/Bailey's The Findings that was a major turning point in the debates about SSB. I think six years is long of a time frame to give a balanced over view. I do not see other fair and reasonable criteria to make a NPOV article. What criteria do you suggest? Andries 20:46, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
...This leads to an unweighted of average 47% 48.3%. Based on this, I think that following the
Wikipedia:NPOV means that we devote this percentage to the treatment of criticism and controvery.
Andries 20:33, 4 February 2006 (UTC) (amended, BBC documentary and Danish Radio documentary)
...Well, I did not not do a word count, but that was just a rough guess. AND AGAIN AGAIN I HAVE BEEN TELLING YOU OVER AND OVER AGAIN THAT IT DOES NOT MATTER FOR WIKIPEDIA THAT YOU CONSIDER THE MEDIA AND SCHOLARS BIASED. HERE IN WIKIPEDIA WE FOLLOW MEDIA AND SCHOLARLY ARTICLES. Andries 21:32, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
For example, one side is remind in us the WP:NPOV principle of undeue weight, in which it is stated that "Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views", but fails to address what minority means in this context. If, for example, Britney Spears sells 10,000,000 albums, and on the other hand a few music critics state in published sources that her music is below standards, what is the majority position in this case, the one of the fans that clearly thing otherwise about her music, or the one of her critics? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:37, 4 February 2006 (UTC)#
Since when did the Anti-Sai POV become a majority opinion? SSB has millions of followers and there are no more than 50 or 60 people who openly oppose him. There are currently about 12-15 Anti-Sai Activists who are actively writing against him. Therefore, if anyone has a minority POV, it is Anti-Sai Activists.
SSS108 23:52, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
That is the point I am making Jossie. Of course, the Anti-Sai POV should be included in the article. However, Andries just said, as he has said many times before, that the Pro-Sai POV is a Minority POV. It isn't. Therefore, the article should reflect the Majority POV, which happens to be favorable.
SSS108 00:14, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, provide us with a link to the article you are speaking about. If you are talking the same Beliefs And Practices that I just looked at, it cites non-notable people like Steel, Dadlani and the original research of Priddy. It also links to Anti-Sai Sites.
SSS108 00:40, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
(text here moved to source materials)
The reason why I disregarded LIMF is because I do not have the book and I have problems ordering it. I will try to order the book this weekend in a bookshop that is specialized in importing Indian books. User:Andries11:46, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
As for the sources mentioned by Andries, please note that these are just a fraction of material published about this person. I saw In the library at least 10 books, if not more, not mentioned above in which this subject is explored. One can argue that the list he produced is a list of articles that explores the critical/controverial aspects of this person. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @
Brian Steel and Alexandra Nagel openly oppose Sathya Sai Baba. They are critics and their viewpoints are not neutral. Andries wants to cite Brian Steel simply because Alexandra Nagel made reference to him in one of her papers. Other than Nagel, there are no notable references that cite Steel. If either of these individuals did not profess being Anti-Sai, then maybe one could make a case for neutrality based on objective research. However both of them have openly admitted being Anti-Sai Activists and their research is dedicated to that end. Therefore, citing them is promoting an Anti-Sai POV.
SSS108 23:36, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, make us a list of neutral scholars against SSB? So far, you can only cite Nagel and you attempt to include Steel by association, (since he was referenced by Nagel in one of her papers). Both Steel and Nagel are not neutral. Neither Steel or Nagel have any qualifications or credentials that entitle them to be called "scholars" in regards to SSB. Steel may be a scholar in Spanish and Nagel may become a scholar once she gets her MA this year or next year. Once again, Steel and Nagel openly oppose SSB. They are not neutral. So even if you call them scholars, their neutrality is totally disputed. How do Steel and Nagel support a NPOV?
SSS108 01:27, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, how does Alexandra Nagel's article come close to Wikipedia's neutral point of view? She is antagonistic against Sathya Sai Baba. As SSS108 and I keep saying, she is not neutral. You keep defending Alexandra Nagel's "scholarly" article, but you have yet to defend her neutrality. That's because she has publicly stated being against Sathya Sai Baba for almost 13/14 years. Thaumaturgic 02:44, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I will say this one more time, but no more. The discussion about this purported "scholarly" article by an ex-follower is inconsequential in light of dozens of published books on the subject that are neither mentioned nor cited in the current article. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:15, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I gave you a partial list of books above. I would also make one point clear: I do not have a POV about the subject of this article, as I only heard about this person here in Wikipedia, and I am not here defending the POV of anyone. My only concern is that we make this article readable and informative. As it stands now this article is a great example of what a good and NPOV article is not. My concern is that in the mediation process, this does not get forgotten: we are here to write an article that complies with Wikipedia content's policies and not just to accommodate editor's opposing views. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:25, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Schulman did not write a biography. Okay, so there is a contradiction about SSB's birthdate. SSB's birthdate does not comprise his entire biography. And LIMF cited reasons for the discrepancy regarding the birthdate, but Anti-Sai Sites, including yours, never mentioned it: Reference Are these all your "many contradicting sources"? If they are, I think we can reasonably assume that a good biographical summary can be written leaving aside these few issues.
SSS108 19:45, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Conveying a "gist" is not the same as mentioning the reasons for the discrepancy, as cited in LIMF. Brain Steel did not make reference to LIMF's statements about the discrepancy, so my statement still stands.
SSS108 22:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries already said that personal homepages and original research violate wikipedia guidelines. When Andries agreed to remove personal homepages, he also removed the personal homepage of Brian Steel. Now, however, he is trying his hardest to reference him. Andries, besides the Anti-Sai Activist Nagel, where are the other reputable, notable and mainstream media sources that have referenced Brian steel?
SSS108 16:23, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, I never contended that my website and my views were notable or accepted by mainstream media. Remember, YOU were the one who began attributing the viewpoints to me. Then YOU began to reference all the viewpoints with your personal homepages. I did the same. And do tell us how Robert Priddy and Basava Premanand argue for a NPOV? if you can use Priddy and Premanand's books, then I will rebut using Hislop, Sandweiss, Kasturi and others books.
SSS108 18:06, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, they are notable. Unlike Steel and Badaev. You did not answer my question: How do Priddy or Premanand argue for a NPOV?
SSS108 18:14, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
He is not a neutral source. He is a skeptic, rationalist, atheist and a self-admitted critic of SSB since 1968 (using the BBC Documentary information). What reputable media has cited his book?
SSS108 19:49, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
This section will contain conversational items that have limited value outside of their conversational context. I will place them here so that parties may examine them. Unless objections are raised to the deletion of items appearing here, they will be deleted on a regular basis.
Intro
Please discuss the pros and cons of merging one or more subtopic articles into the main SSB article.
Thanks. -- BostonMA 16:40, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries response does not explain why he wants to add links to all the Anti-Sai Sites. For example, he cites Robert Priddy. Instead of citing Priddy's site, he cites every single Anti-Sai Site that simply duplicated Priddy's articles on theirs. Why does Andries do this?
SSS108 03:09, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, you failed to address the points I made above about the duplicate links on SaiGuru.net and the duplicate content from Priddy and Steel's site. The point is that if the references are so scattered throughout these sites, how are people supposed to find them and see the relevance to the topic? They can't.
SSS108 03:16, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Comment by Andries on Jossi's proposal: I cannot write a good detailed biography because I do not have reputable sources and the sources that I do have contradict each other. It would help if I have the 1997 book by Brian Steel and the 2000/2001? Love is My Form book by Padmanaban (sp.?) that I have ordered, but these sources also contradict each other. Andries 19:02, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The biography needs to be written based on available reputable sources. Period. As BostonMA said and per WP:NPOV it is possible to write that ecyclopedia A says this, book B says this and article D says this. Rather than "hilarious," it would be interesting (and encyclopedic) to read the diversity of POVs. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:22, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, where did Brian Steel write a biography on SSB? Brian Steel wrote a compendium. There is a difference between a compendium and a biography. Strange you would bring Brian Steel up regarding SSB's biography. You never did before. Kasturi and Murphet wrote biographies as well as Sai Towers.
SSS108 03:29, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I will ask others to help with the biography because I cannot do it alone in a reasonable period of time, due to many contradicting sources, none of which are reputable. Andries 19:14, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, we already discussed this. You keep up bringing up "highly contradicting sources", but the contradictions you name are not even a handful. Futhermore, you keep trying to compare biographical informatation with books that were never biographies in the first place. Steel's book is not a biography. It's a compendium. Schulman's book was not a biography either. SSB's basic biography is consistent. His devotees never recorded SSBs life thinking that they had to preserve every fact for some sort of historical narrative. Although some dates don't mesh, the stories are still the same.
SSS108 02:47, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is always a work in progress. There is noting wrong with getting the bio section started with whatever published sources are available. If new sources are fond we can add these and if there is competing info, we can descibe these as well. I see no issue with this. My proposal to start with published sources first, and leave websites for later, as published material maybe less actualized, but at least is readers can easily assess reputability of these sources. For those aspects not available in published material, I have no problem in referring reputable online sources. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 04:04, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
That is not the reason you gave for deleting the section. Your reason for deleting the section was because you wanted it referenced and you do not want to use Kasturi's hagiography as a reference (although an Encyclopedia of Religions cited Kasturi as a reference in their 4 volume set) [12] Although Steel, Priddy, Premanand have never been cited in an Encyclopedia, you say they are "reputable" sources and you try to include their non-notable works in this article. However, when Kasturi and Sandweiss are referenced in an official Encyclopedic reference, you argue that they should not be referenced because they wrote hagiographies and are not "reputable". Your standards are hardly consistent.
SSS108 18:16, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
BostonMA, there is already a large section devoted to SSB's teachings: Beliefs and Practices On the Main Page, SSB's Teachings are summarized into 4 paragraphs, with a link that goes to the full article. However, when it comes to Critics and Opposition, on the Main Page, there are 19 paragraphs and a separate article on the Allegations Against Sathya Sai Baba that is composed of 32 paragraphs. Tell me something is not wrong.
SSS108 17:41, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, you are misunderstanding, BostonMA. On the Main Page, long sections are summarized in a few paragraphs, with a link going to a separate page with the full article. However, this is not what is being done with the Critics section, although a separate page exists! The Critics section comprises about 50% of the Main Article and then has another page, on the "Allegations Against Sathya Sai Baba" page, that discusses the same material more in depth. If other sections are summarized on the Main Article with links going to separate pages, why can't the same be done with the Critics section? Why have 2 pages dedicated to the same material to begin with? This has been done for the past 14 months without complaint.
SSS108 18:54, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
BostonMA, I do not know why SSB's Teachings are summarized and linked to a separate page. I also do not know why SSB's History and Origins are summarized and linked to a separate page. From what I understand, since these subjects are lengthy, they are summarized on the Main Page and are linked to the indepth article. However, when it comes to the Critics section, it is not summarized on the Main Page although there is another in depth page that is devoted to the issue: Allegations against Sathya Sai Baba
Andries was the person who created all these separate pages. I see no problem summarizing and linking to an in depth article. However, Andries has made the full case against SSB not only on the Main Article, but also on the Allegations against Sathya Sai Baba page (yes, the contain the same information). Why isn't the Critics section summarized on the main page, like the other sections (with a link to the in depth article)? Even if this was done, there is still the issue of bias and the promotion of an Anti-Sai POV through the referenced links. But that a different discussion.
SSS108 22:41, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
No, I have no objection.
SSS108 03:33, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Then would you be willing to put some effort into expanding the non-critical sections during the next two weeks? -- BostonMA 13:41, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes. However, the non-critical sections can easily be expanded by taking available information on the in-depth, linked articles and putting it back on the Main Page. It seems to me that the majority of non-controversial information is already there. So how would you suggest to approach the situation?
SSS108 16:18, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
BostonMA. I do not believe this has been discussed. (some text removed by BostonMA 03:25, 9 February 2006 (UTC))
SSS108 17:59, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Jossi, do you believe that 4 paragraphs on the "teachings" section is sufficient for the primary article? -- BostonMA 18:55, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, BostonMA. Personally, nothing has happened that I did not expect. My arguments are still the same. It seems, however, that everyone does not object to the Teachings section being listed on a separate page. I feel the same way you do about the Teachings section. Undoubtedly, it requires more work. I think the article can be improved with time. Nevertheless, the main points of contention revolve around the Critics Section: Content, References, Links, Notable Sources, etc. I don't think anyone is debating the content on the Teachings section or other sections. Our disagreements revolve around the controversy. Do you still want us to work on the content on other sections, when they are not the contentious issues?
SSS108 02:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
As a clarification, I do not object to merging back content from related articles. The caveat was, that if these are too long, these can be summarized and the main content kept on a separate article. The focus of the article should be on the biographical aspects of this person. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, once again, you keep using the word "reputable". You keep demanding that all the articles be "reputable", yet when I asked you to define that word, you couldn't do it [13] That is why no one can understand where you are coming from and what you are demanding. You attempt to set a certain standard known to you alone. You also expect others to understand this standard although you are incapable of communicating it.
So once again, you need to define "reputable". Until you do so, no will understand what exactly you are asking for.
SSS108 18:04, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, the definition for "reputable" has every place here. Why? Because you keep demanding that sources be "reputable" (so far, you have used this word 23 times on this page alone). Although citing Kasturi and Sandweiss would clearly fall into Wikipedia:Reliable_sources, you are arguing against them. Then you argue in favor of Brian Steel although mentioning him would clearly not fall into Wikipedia:Reliable_sources. Since you keep demanding that sources be "reputable", one would think you would know what you are demanding.
SSS108 20:33, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, then tell me how Kasturi and Sandweiss would not be considered reputable sources when they were cited in the 4 volume "Religions Of The World: A Comprehensive Encyclopedia Of Beliefs And Practices" by J. Gordon Melton and Martin Baumann? Morton Klass (who is a well published author in college references) has also written about SSB in "Reinventing Religions: Syncretism and Transformation in Africa and the Americas". Klass cited Kasturi, Murphet and Sandweiss. In "Redemptive Encounters : Three Modern styles in the Hindu Tradition", by Lawrence A. Bapp, he also cites Kasturi. If all these well published and notable sources reference Kasturi, Sandweiss and Murphet, tell me how, by citing these three, it would violate Wikipedia:reliable sources?
Then in contrast, you seek the inclusion of Brian Steel, Robert Priddy and Basava Premanand as references although they have never been cited in notable references or publications.
SSS108 21:03, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Who is asking that their experiences be stated as facts? I am not aware of anyone making that claim. Why are you limiting the references to Kasturi and Sandweiss to the "Beliefs and Practices" page when the "Beliefs and Practices" page is not dependent on Kasturi or Sandweiss as references? Kasturi and Sandweiss are notable references that have been used in college references and even in a Religion Encyclopedia regarding SSB's life. Therefore, a section will be written about SSB's bibliography, citing Kasturi because if these notable publications can cite Kasturi, I see no reason why Wikipedia can't.
SSS108 21:34, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
I have already asked this question and did not receive a reply. On the "Issues to address before moving forward" section [14], Andries and Thaumatugic were asked a question and I cannot find Andries response. Did Andries ever provide a response to the question asked? This question was asked 6 days ago.
Also, under the "Links in Beliefs and practices article" [15], Andries was asked to give some examples of beliefs and practices as described in the referenced links. Did Andries ever answer this question?
If the questions have been answered, then I wouldn't mind that this section be deleted. I just noticed that Andries has written many replies in the past week and these questions seem to go unanswered. I wanted to know why. Thanks.
SSS108 18:30, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
The Reliable Sources policy begins with the statements:
As I read these paragraphs, they seem to me to be saying several things:
Put another way, as I read this, the policy does not forbid adding useful information which is unsupported by credible references, but allows such material to be removed.
What I would like to know from each of the parties is the answers to the following question:
Do you understand the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia as I have described them, or do you understand the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia differently?
Thank-you for your responses (and I apologize again for my absense) -- BostonMA 20:51, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
If there are no reputable sources about this subject, then maybe this article needs to be deleted altogether. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:53, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, you already admitted that these "reputable" sources are biased. Once again, you are using the word "reputable". However, I have discussed this several times and you do not even know what you mean by using the word "reputable". Even after admitting this, you continue to use the word "reputable" to defend your POV. The sources you want to cite do not advocate for a NPOV. Not only that, the references you cite are many years old and nothing has come about from them.
Andries, Jossie's point is well taken. You keep saying there are no reputable sources for SSB. Why should we have an article about SSB if there are no reputable references?
SSS108 21:13, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, no one is trying to get it deleted. You are the one making the case that there are no "reputable" resources about SSB, except the critcism against him. If that is truly the case, then one could argue that the article should be deleted on the premise of your arguement, i.e., there are no reputable resources about him. Why keep an article that has no reputable resources? After all, that is the case you are trying to make.
SSS108 21:28, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
It is my contention that you are wrong about reliable references. It is also my contention that the critics section, as it is currently written, is not neutrally written and violates a NPOV. That is why we are here. SSS108 21:40, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
The critics section is filled with personal opinions. The sources you cite are biased (by your own admission). You cite non-reputable/non-notable personal homepages, including your own. You cite non-reputable/non-notable people including Brain Steel, Robert Priddy, Hari Sampath, Said Khorramshahgol and Glen Meloy. You cite non-reputable/non-notable articles written by Alexandra Nagel (ex. Shiva Shakti Article, which has never been cited by reputable sources), citing the gold control article without any reliable and neutral references (court case documents, etc.). The critics section also violates an NPOV by linking all the references to Anti-Sai Sites when they were not originally published on them. The list goes on and on.
A rebuttal can be made considering that nothing has come from any of these allegations: No court cases, no indictments, nothing. The rebuttals are easy to state and can be made succintly. SSS108 22:14, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
th your assertion that they are not reputable or not notable. Andries 23:56, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, it was reverted because you kept deleting the devotees and proponents section without a discussion. Also, you should cite from those articles. Just because Nagel managed to get one paper published in a University magazine does not make all of her articles reputable or notable. Just because she had one paper published, you try to include all her opinions and articles. That is deceptive, in my opinion. Everything you say exclusively favors your point of view. Thaumaturgic 01:19, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, you need to show us the reputable media that has pubished these "updated international versions" of Shiva Shakti and A guru accused. You cannot deem what is reputable based on your opinions. You need to reference the published sources, in reputable media, referencing these two articles. So far, the only published paper was "De Sai Paradox". You cannot provide any reputable sources that make reference to the alleged "updated international versions" to the other 2 articles.
SSS108 02:44, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Regarding Glen Meloy, none of the comments attributed to him, on the Main Page, were mentioned in the Divine Downfall Interview [16] No where in this article does Glen Meloy accuse SSB "of being a cult leader who uses mind control, and propaganda and who has created a personality cult". Show us the references?
SSS108 02:22, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
(moved from my talk page) ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:33, 12 February 2006 (UTC) With regards to Sathya Sai Baba, 48% of the space of reputable (both scholarly and media) post-2000/post Bailey articles deal with the criticsm and controversy. If this is not reflected in the Wikipedia article then this breaks Wikipedia:NPOV policy and gives undue weight to proponents. Can you please give a detailed rebuttal to this argument? Of course, it is important to describe beliefs and practices and basic background information and this is what I have done. Thanks. Andries 22:49, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Jossi, you wrote "As it stands now this article is a great example of what a good and NPOV article is not.". Where does the article break the NPOV policy? I had already asked you twice to specify where the article breaks the NPOV policy, but you gave no answer. I believe you have the best intentions, but I do not think that it is helpful to refer to general policies and guidelines to an experienced Wikipedia contributor, like myself, without trying to be more specific how and where they should be applied for this article. Andries 14:43, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
I do not oppose a discussion of Nagel as source (this is by the way incorrectly in the Wikipedia namespace, instead of the user space) as long as we also discuss other sources too. Can we please also start a discussion of Moreno as a source? What bothers me is the double standards used by Moreno for inclusion and exclusion of sources, as I had already stated some time ago. Moreno is very critical of Nagel, but if we appply only a fraction of his critical attitude that he shows for Nagel to his homepage then there can be no doubt that his homepage should not be used as a source. Andries 15:11, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries was the person who attributed opinions to me that were/are not dependent on me or my site. I am simply demanding that as long as Anti-Sai personal homepages (including Andries Anti-Sai personal homepage) remain in the article, so should mine. Remove the personal homepages of Anti-Sai Activists and I will gladly and promptly remove mine without complaint. SSS108 02:16, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
At one point, Andries asked me on my talk page:
To which I responded:
That was on Jan 12. Since I did not here back, I tended to interpret that as a passive "no I do not object", although it is possible that someone might feel uncomfortable objecting. However, since the subject has been rekindled, I think it ought to be discussed in an open forum.
Jossi is not an official party to the mediation. At the same time Jossi has been active in the discussions around SSB. (Jossi is also involved in discussions with Andries on other topics). The other parties may welcome Jossi's involvement, or they may or not. I would like the parties to express their opinions regarding what role Jossi ought to play in the mediation if any. I will state up front what I will do with these statements. If anyone states that they do not want Jossi involved in any way, then I will ask Jossi to refrain from participating. If everyone accepts Jossi's participation, but any party expresses the opinion that Jossi ought to be a party to the mediation, I will ask Jossi to be a party to the mediation. If there are other proposals, I will consider them.
Please express your opinions regarding the role Jossi ought to play in this mediation. Please discuss other topics elsewhere. -- BostonMA 04:15, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I have decide to abstain from participating in this mediation from now on. If any party would want my help with sources, or as a sounding board for specific proposals, do not hesitate to drop me a line on my talk page, or send me an email. Good luck, and hope you can find a way forward that works for everybody. I leave you in the capable hands of BostonMA your mediator, from which I have learned a lot about how to handle conflict resolution, by just observing the way he has handled this tricky project so far. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Providing reference is a lot of work: often I have read something but do not remember where. Can we please agree that we do not ask for references if we do not want a certain statement in the article anyway, regardless if references are provided? Thanks. Andries 12:56, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Andries, why haven't you answered the questions in mediation? It is coming up on 2 weeks and you adamantly refuse not only to answers the questions in mediation, you adamantly refuse to give any explanation why you refuse to answer the questions in mediation. On your talk page, the mediator reminded you to answer the questions. On your talk page, I asked you to answer the questions. I also kindly asked you to give a reason for not responding. See Andries Talk Page You refuse to give any answers and choose to stay silent. You promised the mediator that you would answer the questions the past weekend. You did not. See BostonMA Talk Page It is time for you come forward and state why you refuse to answer the mediation questions. You have lots of time to watch the articles to see who edits them. You have lots of time to revert the articles and make long rebuttals about the Salon.com article. You have lots of time time to make comments. But you have no time for the mediation questions. Why? I would like to know. SSS108 talk- email 17:37, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
BostonMA, I am unaware how the mediation/arbitration process works (this is the first time I have participated in one, or even seen one in action). Honestly, I do not know what the next step is. It is undeniable that Andries behavior has me confused and leads me to suspect that he is the one who is seeking arbitration (after all, he has threatened to request their intervention). I have made no such comments or threats about arbitration and have continually asked Andries to participate in mediation (as can be seen in my numerous comments above). So if you think I am seeking arbitration, you are mistaken. Read the discussion and you will see that the only person who is avoiding mediation and who is threatening to file a request with the arbitration committee is Andries.
If Andries is not feeling well or is too busy to answer the mediation questions, why doesn't he just say so? After repeatedly asking him why he refuses to participate, no answers have been forthcoming. He simply said once, that he was tired on Sunday and Monday and that is why he did not respond. However, Andries recent activity shows he has plenty of time to engage in edits, reverts and arguments, but has no time for mediation.
BostonMA, I have already conceded that my name and website should not be listed on the article. I am only insisting that my website be left in the article until Anti-Sai Websites (including Andries) are removed as well. Let us be clear on that. As a matter of fact, it was Andries who attributed viewpoints to me that were not dependent on me or my website. After Andries started referencing Anti-Sai Sites, Thaumaturgic did the same. When Andries started demanding that personal website references be removed from the site, he shot himself in the foot because this would mean he would have to remove his personal website references as well. He is unwilling to remove Anti-Sai website references (including his own), so I am unwilling to remove mine. I have shown, in word and deed, my commitment to the mediation process. I have not made any comments about arbitration (unlike Andries). I do not know how this standstill is to be resolved and that is why I made a complaint to you, not the arbitration committee. SSS108 talk- email 00:36, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
BostonMA, once the wikipedia article for SSB is neutral and fair, that page will definitely be updated. That page was started a while back when I decided I could no longer participate in editing the article due to the fact that nothing I submitted was accepted. Therefore, I gave voice to what I considered systematic bias from Andries (an Anti-Sai Activist who, at that time, was claiming to be the webmaster to the largest Anti-Sai Site on the net). It is also important to point out that I had requested mediation at the time and nothing came out from it. Also, nothing on my page about Andries is incorrect. All my comments, in my opinion, are fully backed up and expose what I see as Andries systematic bias (even though he claims to be neutral enough to edit this article). My page about him proves he is not neutral and cannot edit this article neutrally. Andries has had many months to challenge my page. He has not done so. However, since you brought this up, I will remove the links from my talk and personal wiki pages. SSS108 talk- email 02:33, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Amazing how Andries does not understand the Indian Skeptic article, written in English, but has no problem trying to reference it as a source against SSB. Whether or not Premanand used innuendo is highly relevant and a very important question. Our answers to this question give insights into our ideas on what constitutes fair, neutral and factual data. In my opinion, this question is one of the most important questions asked. Almost 2 weeks later, Andries says he doesn't understand it. SSS108 talk- email 19:46, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Andries, I have reasons for my all my comments about you. On Wikipedia, others share my sentiments about you as well. Premanand is cited on your Anti-Sai Site. Premanand is cited on your friend's Anti-Sai Sites. You actively defend Premanand. You actively defend Premanand's anonymous "Betrayal" letter (despite never researching it). You actively defend Premanand's "Gold Control Act", despite it never being published, in full, on the internet. You actively defend everything against SSB and raise a huge wail when it comes to including favorable material. Your actions and words have influenced my perception of you. The questions are really simple: Did Premanand use innuendo? Did Premanand factually prove that SSB influenced the judiciary? Yes or no? SSS108 talk- email 22:03, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Andries, how do you know the article is not an op-ed? You told Jossie that you weren't even going to check! It doesn't matter if Goldberg was at the ashram or not. Her entire article was slanted against SSB and she told Glen Meloy that she wrote the article hoping to bring attention to his cause. I am objecting to the wording, not the reputability of salon.com. Goldberg did not investigate any cases of "boys" being abused. She simply repeated that claim, as made by Anti-Sai Activists. This hardly qualifies her as a source for supporting the claim that SSB sexually abused "boys". You tenaciously hold on to Goldberg and Premanand to make your case that SSB is alleged to have abused "boys", yet you lack any solid references that SSB did abuse "boys". Not even one testimony from a child or a parent of a child. Not even one reputable source that ever privately investigated it and was willing to make that claim. Not even one! You are drawing inferences from comments. Goldberg never claimed that SSB did sexually abuse boys. She said Anti-Sai's believed that. SSS108 talk- email 19:17, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Let us look at Michelle Goldberg's references to "boys", since Andries is obviously failing to understand my POV: Only 4 references to "boys": Salon.com Article Written By Michelle Goldberg:
Michelle Goldberg did not document any cases of "boys" being abused. "Males", yes. She repeated the stories told to her to Geyerhan and Sampath. Goldberg's talk about the "stories being endless" is her personal bias that she admitted when writing the article to bring attention to Glen Meloy's "struggle". It is clear that the word "boys" refers to gender (not age-wise as "boys" is a term for a child 12 years of age or younger) as she specifically followed her comment by saying "mid-teens to their mid-20s". Hari Sampath also boasted to Brian Steel that he was responsible for the Salon.com article. Michelle did not document any cases of boys being abused, so if you insist on using that word, this fact must be mentioned as well as the age range she gave. SSS108 talk- email 06:04, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Andries, this is exactly the problem with you. Michelle Goldberg expressed her opinions and gave the Salon.com her slant and bias and you see absolutely nothing wrong in citing the article because it is "notable". Once it comes to a slant and bias in favor of SSB, from the "notable" New York Times, you start saying we must exclude it. There is your bias and double-standards in action, out of your own mouth. If Goldberg and her bias are allowed to be cited, then I see no reason why Keith Bradsher and his bias cannot similary be cited. The New York Times is even more "notable" than Salon.com. SSS108 talk- email 02:29, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
The alleged "blunders" are your perception of them. Keith Bradsher's article is going to be cited. Despite your own admission that Tanya Datta and Michelle Goldberg was biased and favored Anti-Sai Activists, you continually say that their bias can be cited as a "fact" because it was published in notable and reputable sources. Using your own logic, it doesn't matter if Keith Bradsher made alleged "blunders" or not, since it was published in a notable and reputable source, it can be stated as a "fact". You said it. Stop using double-standards. SSS108 talk- email 05:23, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Boston, I know what information will more than likely be edited out. However, I will also go about deleting links to personal homepages that are used as references. All those referenced links that go to the partison, biased, controversial and personal homepages of Anti-Sai Activists will be deleted because they violate the policies in Reliable Sources. You see, the edit wars will resume unless we get certain things resolved in mediation first. If Andries wants to begin editing out information in the article, so will I. SSS108 talk- email 20:27, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Go ahead and revert Andries. I think it is clear that when the referenced links go to your Anti-Sai Site and reload into a framed page (preventing people from using the "back" key), this directly solicits your partison, biased, controversial and personal homepage. That is why we came to mediation. You are the one who is refusing to participate in the mediation. Therefore, I will stand my ground and it is my firm conviction that I am correct. Reference the sources either to their original sites or do not provide a link at all. After all Wikipedia is not supposed to be a "mere collection of links"...especially when those links go directly to a site the exclusively and wholly opposes Sathya Sai Baba that you happen to be the "Main Representative, Supervisor and Contact" for. SSS108 talk- email 21:14, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Not when those "online sources" are on a partison, biased, controversial and personal homepage. Show me Wikipedia policy that states linking to controversial sites is okay. Teach me the "subtleties of Wikipedia policy" that promotes the bias of controversial sites, such as yours? For your information, your Anti-Sai Site (and the Anti-Sai Sites of your friends) ARE partison, biased, controversial and biased. Once again "preferable" does not mean it is mandatory. Either we attempt to get a neutral third opinion about this from BostonMA, and resolve this in mediation or take our risks by going through arbitration. SSS108 talk- email 21:34, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Not when it links to a partison, biased, controversial or personal website. Continue to rant, rave and avoid mediation as much as you like. Wikipedia is not supposed to promote bias. Linking to your site promotes Anti-Sai bias. I am not going to repeat myself again. Go ahead with your edits. I will go ahead with mine. SSS108 talk- email 23:18, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for answering the questions. Even if it took 11 days for you to do so. SSS108 talk- email 01:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
(Discussion of websites moved to User:BostonMA/Mediation/Sathya Sai Baba/Use of Websites#Links to Documents on Websites) -- BostonMA 23:10, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
The parties have agreed on a process for removing inadequately sourced material. The mediator suggests that SSS108 place notices on the SSB talk page that he intends to remove the following materials after 48 hours, unless it can be shown that these materials were published by a reputable source. -- BostonMA 15:33, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
(the above items were taken from issues raised by SSS108. The mediator is not expressing agreement or disagreement with the claims made in this list.)
SSS108, please clarify your objection to the use of the Trouw article. Do you believe that Trouw is a reputable source? ( BostonMA 15:54, 26 March 2006 (UTC))
BostonMA, I am intending on removing this reference and have already waited several days to discuss this issue. Since Andries has not made an argument against mine, I surmise he doesn't have one. SSS108 talk- email 17:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I am not objecting to the reputability of the Trouw article. I am objecting to the way it is being used. Its use is deceitful, in my opinion, for the reasons just stated earlier. It does not factually document anything. So I believe it cannot be used as a reference for factual data. SSS108 talk- email 19:19, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
BostonMA, please do not do any effort to determine the reputability of Beyerstein's study published in the Indian CSICOP. The reason is that it is easy to bypass a direct treatment of this study by using Nagel's 1994 article published by the Free University of Amsterdam that has already been determined as a reputable source and that refers to this study. Andries 20:42, 2 April 2006 (UTC) (amended for grammar)