In the beginning was the Jesus article, and it was good, but failed to be featured. One day Robsteadman arrived to challenge the consensus of religion and history alike. Suspected of sockpuppetry, SOPHIA took a break. She did not thrive on suspicion and conflict; most normal people don't. Avery Krouse advocated strong action against Rob, but CTSWyneken urged caution. Archola began to feel that the debate was becoming too polarized and binary. Jim62sch questioned whether we could ever really know anything. In time Robsteadman began to suspect that there was a cabal aligned against him. This prophecy came to pass when Avery Krouse's suspicions led to Robsteadman being convicted of sockpuppetry, although some questioned this. AveryKrouse then formed the Christian Cabal, which soon went underground. Meanwhile, The Centrist Faction was born. The Centrist Faction was renamed The Centrist Fellowship on April 6, 2006.
"You cannot claim a right that you are not prepared to grant to others." I love this quote! My goal all along has been to promote civility and equal rights, although I admit I have been as clouded as anyone else by my own subjective perceptions, hence my need to step back a bit and clear my head. Once we have civility, and if you decide to return, I look forward to working with you.
I'm basically a Perotite: I think we should all stop bickering, lift up the hood of the car and get to work. I'm tired of fighting against both sides, even when it's indirect. May peace and civility reign. Arch O. La 23:11, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Glad to hear from you! My own psychosocial analysis was a good faith attempt to understand Rob based on what he has said. I'm sorry if he was offended; on the Christian side there were those who felt I was being too sympathetic to him. Like I said, caught in the middle. I think Rob's beef is more with people like User:Jason Gastrich than with Christianity in general. By the way, Gastrich has had stronger action taken against him than Rob has. I support this even though I am a Christian. I hope Rob has the wisdom not to go as far as Gastrich has.
I understand Rob's frustration that few seem to be listening to him. I have done my best to separate his objective points from his subjective values that clash with mine, and I've been trying to get others to do the same. Rob is right that he is marginalized on the Jesus page, but there are other areas where Christians are just as marginalized (one need look no further than Gastrich). I think we need more moderate secularists to balance the debate, and I think Giovanni fills that role. There are those of us who affirm the truth on both sides. It all comes down to the adage that truth cannot contradict truth (that is NPOV), but perceptions of truth can and often do contradict (that is POV). Of course, that's just my viewpoint ;)
Cheers, Arch O. La 00:00, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
My father was color blind, so I appreciate the analogy. I have read Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World and I recognized the parallels to the Bright website Rob pointed us to. There are also others trying to reign "our" side in--including a couple of conservatives that have given each other Alito barnstars. There are also those besides myself who miss your wisdom, SOPHIA (which is, after all, what "Sophia" means). Arch O. La 00:24, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I have tried to say that I see nothing wrong with Bright in and of itself, what bothers me is lack of communication and apparent intolerance (and the political and broader sociological consequences of the same). Of course, religious experience is experience and thus by definition subjective--you do not experience my subjectivity, and I do not experience yours. As a Lutheran I believe that faith is itself a gift of God (single predestination), so beyond expressing my beliefs it's not up to me anyway ;) Beyond that, it all becomes rather philosophical. As I have mentioned today, I and much of Christianity have been influenced by Neoplatonism by identifying the spiritual with Plato's idealism (although this has become somewhat buried, the subtext is still there).
I find C. S. Lewis and especially Mere Christianity to be a good counterpoint to Carl Sagan. Arch O. La 22:54, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Alright, we've both read both Sagan and Lewis and judged how well both authors correlate with our own experiences. (This is starting to sound technical). I am a genetic Lutheran, so the Force runs strong in my family. I leave it as an exercise to the reader whether the Force is the Holy Spirit or merely psychosocial. ; Arch O. La 23:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Thank you and welcome back! I had, however, fallen into the trap of playing the middle against both sides, expressing an opinion when I really wonder, what's the point? But welcome back. Arch O. La 23:26, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Just dropped by to see who the new guy on the Jesus talk page was. I love your Latin. In fact, I've thought of putting the following on my office door: Nisi pluet, nunquam fluet. But I'd have to move too many cartoons.
On the current tempest over there; If you have the time or inclination, take a look at the last five archives there. Any suggestions as to how to bring the sides together without one of those evil votes? -- CTSWyneken 02:08, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Jim. While I am obviously a committed Christian, I'm looking for language that reflects the scholars. The evangelists, Christian and Atheist, need to find another forum to "talk" to each other.
The reason why we went to votes, which for me is a near last resort, is neither bunch is willing to chill. I don't expect it will make the losing side happy, but we'll gather enough folk to donate two reverts to keep it stable. -- CTSWyneken 11:47, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
It's been a little while since I've heard LCA. These days, it always has an "E" in front of it. I've got a friend who is a historian of ancient history, who says the differences between the gospels make him more sure they are authentic. 8-) If you'd like to get my take on the things you think do not add up, let me know. I love to talk about them. Who knows? I may find a new tool for your spiritual tool belt. -- CTSWyneken 23:38, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I will do that. It may wait, now that Robsteadman has be blocked for using sockpuppets to -- you guessed -- stack the vote on a meaningless phrase on the Jesus page. *sigh* Also, my daughter is headed for speech sectionals this weekend. If you want to get it started, go ahead and outline what you think is impossible in Jesus and Pilate's conversation. As a librarian, I have quite a few tools on hand and can do some digging, if needed. 8-) -- CTSWyneken 00:04, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Want to join my cabal -- I mean, going to Kabul? 8-) Seriously, I put down a marker on the Jesus talk page. Enough of the Stürm und Drang! -- CTSWyneken 00:29, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't know? ;-) Seriously, agnostics are often good company! After all, we say, "two Lutherans, three opinions!" -- CTSWyneken 00:33, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Archie:
I've put down my marker on the talk:Jesus page. Enough of this. -- CTSWyneken 00:31, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Forgive me for interupting. if I can live with being associated with SOPHIA (A former Christian who became an Atheist), I can certainly live with being associated with an agnostic. It's about time we form a centrist faction (not a cabal) to try to bring everyone together. Those who butt heads are named for that action. Arch O. La 00:41, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Great! Perhaps we should ask SOPHIA to join as well. She and I have pretty much agreed to allow each other our differing subjectivities. I should warn you, though, that she considers agnosticism to be a form of intellectual dishonesty. Arch O. La
SOPHIA, some centrists are getting together to promote cooperation. See User_talk:Jim62sch#Love_Your_Latin and the responses on the appropriate talk pages. You're free to join if you wish. Arch O. La 00:54, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Jim62sch, I see them as differing basic beliefs. I have made the invitation to SOPHIA. Arch O. La 00:57, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Ever read King Jesus by Robert Graves? It's quite fascinating. Jim62sch 17:42, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I've created a section on my User page for The Centrist Faction. Arch O. La 19:03, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
In the beginning was the Jesus article, and it was good, but failed to be featured. One day Robsteadman arrived to challenge the consensus of religion and history alike. Suspected of sockpuppetry, SOPHIA took a break. She did not thrive on suspicion and conflict; most normal people don't. Avery Krouse advocated strong action against Rob, but CTSWyneken urged caution. Archola began to feel that the debate was becoming too polarized and binary. Jim62sch questioned whether we could ever really know anything. In time Robsteadman began to suspect that there was a cabal aligned against him. This prophecy came to pass when Avery Krouse's suspicions led to Robsteadman being convicted of sockpuppetry, although some questioned this. AveryKrouse then formed the Christian Cabal, which soon went underground. Meanwhile, The Centrist Faction was born. The Centrist Faction was renamed The Centrist Fellowship on April 6, 2006.
"You cannot claim a right that you are not prepared to grant to others." I love this quote! My goal all along has been to promote civility and equal rights, although I admit I have been as clouded as anyone else by my own subjective perceptions, hence my need to step back a bit and clear my head. Once we have civility, and if you decide to return, I look forward to working with you.
I'm basically a Perotite: I think we should all stop bickering, lift up the hood of the car and get to work. I'm tired of fighting against both sides, even when it's indirect. May peace and civility reign. Arch O. La 23:11, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Glad to hear from you! My own psychosocial analysis was a good faith attempt to understand Rob based on what he has said. I'm sorry if he was offended; on the Christian side there were those who felt I was being too sympathetic to him. Like I said, caught in the middle. I think Rob's beef is more with people like User:Jason Gastrich than with Christianity in general. By the way, Gastrich has had stronger action taken against him than Rob has. I support this even though I am a Christian. I hope Rob has the wisdom not to go as far as Gastrich has.
I understand Rob's frustration that few seem to be listening to him. I have done my best to separate his objective points from his subjective values that clash with mine, and I've been trying to get others to do the same. Rob is right that he is marginalized on the Jesus page, but there are other areas where Christians are just as marginalized (one need look no further than Gastrich). I think we need more moderate secularists to balance the debate, and I think Giovanni fills that role. There are those of us who affirm the truth on both sides. It all comes down to the adage that truth cannot contradict truth (that is NPOV), but perceptions of truth can and often do contradict (that is POV). Of course, that's just my viewpoint ;)
Cheers, Arch O. La 00:00, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
My father was color blind, so I appreciate the analogy. I have read Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World and I recognized the parallels to the Bright website Rob pointed us to. There are also others trying to reign "our" side in--including a couple of conservatives that have given each other Alito barnstars. There are also those besides myself who miss your wisdom, SOPHIA (which is, after all, what "Sophia" means). Arch O. La 00:24, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I have tried to say that I see nothing wrong with Bright in and of itself, what bothers me is lack of communication and apparent intolerance (and the political and broader sociological consequences of the same). Of course, religious experience is experience and thus by definition subjective--you do not experience my subjectivity, and I do not experience yours. As a Lutheran I believe that faith is itself a gift of God (single predestination), so beyond expressing my beliefs it's not up to me anyway ;) Beyond that, it all becomes rather philosophical. As I have mentioned today, I and much of Christianity have been influenced by Neoplatonism by identifying the spiritual with Plato's idealism (although this has become somewhat buried, the subtext is still there).
I find C. S. Lewis and especially Mere Christianity to be a good counterpoint to Carl Sagan. Arch O. La 22:54, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Alright, we've both read both Sagan and Lewis and judged how well both authors correlate with our own experiences. (This is starting to sound technical). I am a genetic Lutheran, so the Force runs strong in my family. I leave it as an exercise to the reader whether the Force is the Holy Spirit or merely psychosocial. ; Arch O. La 23:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Thank you and welcome back! I had, however, fallen into the trap of playing the middle against both sides, expressing an opinion when I really wonder, what's the point? But welcome back. Arch O. La 23:26, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Just dropped by to see who the new guy on the Jesus talk page was. I love your Latin. In fact, I've thought of putting the following on my office door: Nisi pluet, nunquam fluet. But I'd have to move too many cartoons.
On the current tempest over there; If you have the time or inclination, take a look at the last five archives there. Any suggestions as to how to bring the sides together without one of those evil votes? -- CTSWyneken 02:08, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Jim. While I am obviously a committed Christian, I'm looking for language that reflects the scholars. The evangelists, Christian and Atheist, need to find another forum to "talk" to each other.
The reason why we went to votes, which for me is a near last resort, is neither bunch is willing to chill. I don't expect it will make the losing side happy, but we'll gather enough folk to donate two reverts to keep it stable. -- CTSWyneken 11:47, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
It's been a little while since I've heard LCA. These days, it always has an "E" in front of it. I've got a friend who is a historian of ancient history, who says the differences between the gospels make him more sure they are authentic. 8-) If you'd like to get my take on the things you think do not add up, let me know. I love to talk about them. Who knows? I may find a new tool for your spiritual tool belt. -- CTSWyneken 23:38, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I will do that. It may wait, now that Robsteadman has be blocked for using sockpuppets to -- you guessed -- stack the vote on a meaningless phrase on the Jesus page. *sigh* Also, my daughter is headed for speech sectionals this weekend. If you want to get it started, go ahead and outline what you think is impossible in Jesus and Pilate's conversation. As a librarian, I have quite a few tools on hand and can do some digging, if needed. 8-) -- CTSWyneken 00:04, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Want to join my cabal -- I mean, going to Kabul? 8-) Seriously, I put down a marker on the Jesus talk page. Enough of the Stürm und Drang! -- CTSWyneken 00:29, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't know? ;-) Seriously, agnostics are often good company! After all, we say, "two Lutherans, three opinions!" -- CTSWyneken 00:33, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Archie:
I've put down my marker on the talk:Jesus page. Enough of this. -- CTSWyneken 00:31, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Forgive me for interupting. if I can live with being associated with SOPHIA (A former Christian who became an Atheist), I can certainly live with being associated with an agnostic. It's about time we form a centrist faction (not a cabal) to try to bring everyone together. Those who butt heads are named for that action. Arch O. La 00:41, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Great! Perhaps we should ask SOPHIA to join as well. She and I have pretty much agreed to allow each other our differing subjectivities. I should warn you, though, that she considers agnosticism to be a form of intellectual dishonesty. Arch O. La
SOPHIA, some centrists are getting together to promote cooperation. See User_talk:Jim62sch#Love_Your_Latin and the responses on the appropriate talk pages. You're free to join if you wish. Arch O. La 00:54, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Jim62sch, I see them as differing basic beliefs. I have made the invitation to SOPHIA. Arch O. La 00:57, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Ever read King Jesus by Robert Graves? It's quite fascinating. Jim62sch 17:42, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I've created a section on my User page for The Centrist Faction. Arch O. La 19:03, 3 March 2006 (UTC)