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I'm wondering why the Adana massacres are included in this template when it's clear from the page that they were perpetrated by general Muslim mobs after the Countercoup of 1909. A user has alleged that "regiments that conducted the massacre were the Rumelian regiments established and commanded by the right-wing circles of the Young Turk party. These regiments were never under the command Islamist counter-revolutionaries." I don't see any proof of this anywhere, and no sign of that on the page. The Adana massacres were committed by non-centralized mobs, under the anti-Turkish nationalist Pan-Islamist and monarchist countercoup forces. Neither the Young Turks, nor any significant "regiments" or military, were involved in them. Perhaps the reverting user is confusing the incident with something else. Ithinkicahn ( talk) 18:29, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
When the Young Turks returned to power Aptil 24, 1909, they deployed the Rumelian regiments from Damascus and Beirut to Adana to restore public order, which, however, only prolonged the massacre as troops joined the program.
Local CUP officials were also involved in instigating and ordering massacres
Ittihadist forces were implicated in the massacre, and some popular participation seems to have been the result of economic-based jealousies.
In the meantime, new contingents of the Turkish army had arrived ostensibly to restore "peace and order." What followed was a one of the most gruesome and savage bloodbaths ever recorded in human history. Enraged by the magnitude of the losses they sustained during the first round of the conflagration, the Turks, directly supported by the newly arrived army contingents, descended upon the totally disarmed and defenseless Armenians, butchering and burning them alive by the thousands.
These troops were sent in order to " restore order" but were ultimately given supplemental orders from the local CUP officers in Cilicia to assist with the massacres. These troops, part of the "Action Army," were commanded by the Young Turk officers ( [5]). Remember, just because Constantinople was going through civil conflict doesn't mean the entire Empire was as well. Local CUP officials throughout the vilayets including Cilicia still held a firm grip on power.
More importantly, I believe that these massacres, along with the Armenian Genocide, should be placed under a context of a social engineering program launched by the Turkish/Ottoman government that geared towards more nationalist oriented society. Many writers and researchers ( [6]), attest to that notion. In fact, many historians see the Adana massacres as a rehearsal for the great genocide that followed. If you think that the article lacks significant information regarding what I have just aforementioned, I agree. We can work together and add it to the article. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 19:03, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
On April 25, 850 soldiers from the second and the third regiments arrived from Dede Agaç. After the regiments set up a camp in Adana, shots were fired at their tents. A rumor immediately spread that the Armenians had opened fire on the troops from a church tower in town. The military commander of Adana, Mustafa Remzi Pasa, made no attempt to validate these rumors, but nevertheless ordered his soldiers to strike back at the Armenians. On Sunday, April 25 at 1:00 p.m. a battalion attacked the Armenian school that housed the injured from the first wave of the massacres. Soldiers poured kerosene on the school and set it on fire with people inside. Regular soldiers, reserve soldiers, and mobs along with the Basibozuks attacked the Armenian Quarter. They burned down churches and schools. The conflagration in the city of Adana continued until Tuesday morning, April 27, and destroyed the entire Armenian residential quarter...
Étienne Dolet ( talk) 19:45, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
"The intensity of the carnage prompted the government to open an investigation, but the failure to prosecute dashed Armenian expectations of liberal reforms by the new regime. The reactionary elements of the Ottoman Empire were suspected of instigating the massacres to discredit the CUP, but the Young Turks were also implicated. The Adana Massacre exposed the twin composition of the Young Turk Movement, which consisted of both liberal and radical nationalist elements. It also demonstrated the convergent interests of the nationalists with the reactionary and conservative elements of Ottoman state in their policies toward a progressive-minded minority. For the Young Turks, the Adana Massacre proved a rehearsal for gauging the depth of Turkish animosity in the Ottoman Empire toward Christian minorities and for testing their skills in marshaling those forces for political ends. Despite the restoration of a constitutional government, the specter of mass violence was reintroduced as a mechanism of state power."
"Apart from the many wars, an incomplete list of mass violence in the Ottoman Empire would include: the 1909 Adana massacre, the violent expulsion of European Muslims especially after 1912, the 1915 deportation and genocide of Armenians and Syriacs, the 1921 Kocgiri and Pontus massacres, the mass violence against Kurds from the 1925 Sheikh Said conflict to the 1938 Dersim massacre, the 1934 anti-Jewish pogrom in Thrace, all the way up to and including the 1966 pogrom against Greeks and Armenians in Istanbul. Sociologically speaking, one could interpret these events as constituents of the "dark side" of the Turkish process of nation-building, of which violence was a defining feature. Unlike violence in modern German history, Young Turk violence and social engineering remains remarkably underresearched, both in Ottoman-Turkish studies and in genocide studies in general."
Sivas massacre doesn't belong in here, because this was an Islamist-led attack ("Allahu ekber") against Alevi people and the Atheist Aziz Nesin. Had nothing to do with nationalism. -- 194.166.198.168 ( talk) 23:42, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Despite the fact that you've never edited this article and just came out of nowhere to revert me, are you even reading the articles that you're removing?
Islamist millitants of the far-right Nationalist Movement Party (MHP) attacked a district where predominantly Alevi Turkish citizens live as a minority, causing the death of (according to an official source) 57 leftists and wounding hundreds of people, predominantly Alevi Turkish citizens. The Grey Wolves claimed responsibility for the pogrom.
You read that right, the MHP.
According to Balıkçı's lawyer Cem Halavurt, an investigation conducted on May 1, 2011 into the background (including his internet social networks, which were shut down after the incident) of the suspect, Kıvanç Ağaoglu, revealed that he was a Turkish ultra-nationalist. Through his Facebook profile, it was discovered that he was a sympathizer of nationalist politician Muhsin Yazıcıoğlu and Turkish agent / contract killer Abdullah Çatlı, who himself had a history of Anti-Armenian activity such as the Armenian Genocide Memorial bombing in a Paris suburb in 1984.[10][13][14] His Facebook profile also showed that he was a sympathizerof the Great Union Party (BBP), a far-right nationalist party in Turkey.
Nine protestors were immediately arrested under the charge of offending "Turkishness". Nine Jews and also a Russian individual witness to murder were arrested. Four of them were sentenced for the specific offense of "insulting Turkishness".
All these articles have to do with nationalism in one way shape or form, to say the least. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 05:14, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
The case of Sevag Balikci, as also pointed out in the article, was culminated with the perpetrator being jailed due to involuntary manslaughter.Okay, so what? Is the Turkish justice system the truth of all things? If that were the case, we'd have to say on Wikipedia that the Armenian Genocide is a lie because hey, the Turkish government and its agencies think that way so it must be a lie, right? Besides, regardless of whether you personally think this was voluntary or involuntary shouldn't matter much. The fact of the matter is there are sources that point out that indeed the killing was done by a nationalist. And whether it was an individual or a group shouldn't matter either. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 16:22, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
The membership or association with a certain party/group doesn't change the fact of the motivation and situation. So there's no point in pushing your POV any further. It's not my personal thought, it's a fact that there's no proof or actual confirmation about the nature of the murder. Hence any assumptions and indications from your part are baseless and don't belong here and into the template. The only fact here is that you can't support your view with according reliable sources. The Corum massacre article belongs into a template about militant Islamism, if there is one. Akocsg ( talk) 23:24, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
28 Mayıs 1980 günü 'milliyetçi gençlerin' faşist saldırılarda "Kana Kan İntikam- Kanımız aksa da zafer İslamın" haykırışlarıyla başlayan Çorum Katliamı 10 Temmuz 1980'e (yaklaşık 1,5 ay) kadar devam etti. Saldırılarda 57 Alevi yurttaş öldürülürken; 300'e yakın yurttaş yaralandı. 300'e yakın ev ve işyeri ise tahrip edilerek yıkıldı.
You seem to be a big fan of it when it reports on Kurds killing innocent people but when Turks are doing the very same thing, you suddenly begin insisting more "academic sources"is a personal attack. It is directly refuted by the evidence you cited [11]. It does not seem like you are interested in improving the article, only personal attacks, so I am going to work on something else. Seraphim System ( talk) 06:40, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
GGT and Seraphim System have pointed out that the Corum massacre and the Elza Niego case don't really fit into this template. So it is three users against you at the moment. The sources provided here further evidence this. Especially the Islamist nature of the Corum massacre has been underlined. The Balikci case is different, it could be included, though more evidence should be provided here. I can agree about including that one, though the other two articles definitely don't belong here, but into more fitting templates. Akocsg ( talk) 16:00, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Turkish nationalism template. |
|
Turkey Template‑class | |||||||
|
I'm wondering why the Adana massacres are included in this template when it's clear from the page that they were perpetrated by general Muslim mobs after the Countercoup of 1909. A user has alleged that "regiments that conducted the massacre were the Rumelian regiments established and commanded by the right-wing circles of the Young Turk party. These regiments were never under the command Islamist counter-revolutionaries." I don't see any proof of this anywhere, and no sign of that on the page. The Adana massacres were committed by non-centralized mobs, under the anti-Turkish nationalist Pan-Islamist and monarchist countercoup forces. Neither the Young Turks, nor any significant "regiments" or military, were involved in them. Perhaps the reverting user is confusing the incident with something else. Ithinkicahn ( talk) 18:29, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
When the Young Turks returned to power Aptil 24, 1909, they deployed the Rumelian regiments from Damascus and Beirut to Adana to restore public order, which, however, only prolonged the massacre as troops joined the program.
Local CUP officials were also involved in instigating and ordering massacres
Ittihadist forces were implicated in the massacre, and some popular participation seems to have been the result of economic-based jealousies.
In the meantime, new contingents of the Turkish army had arrived ostensibly to restore "peace and order." What followed was a one of the most gruesome and savage bloodbaths ever recorded in human history. Enraged by the magnitude of the losses they sustained during the first round of the conflagration, the Turks, directly supported by the newly arrived army contingents, descended upon the totally disarmed and defenseless Armenians, butchering and burning them alive by the thousands.
These troops were sent in order to " restore order" but were ultimately given supplemental orders from the local CUP officers in Cilicia to assist with the massacres. These troops, part of the "Action Army," were commanded by the Young Turk officers ( [5]). Remember, just because Constantinople was going through civil conflict doesn't mean the entire Empire was as well. Local CUP officials throughout the vilayets including Cilicia still held a firm grip on power.
More importantly, I believe that these massacres, along with the Armenian Genocide, should be placed under a context of a social engineering program launched by the Turkish/Ottoman government that geared towards more nationalist oriented society. Many writers and researchers ( [6]), attest to that notion. In fact, many historians see the Adana massacres as a rehearsal for the great genocide that followed. If you think that the article lacks significant information regarding what I have just aforementioned, I agree. We can work together and add it to the article. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 19:03, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
On April 25, 850 soldiers from the second and the third regiments arrived from Dede Agaç. After the regiments set up a camp in Adana, shots were fired at their tents. A rumor immediately spread that the Armenians had opened fire on the troops from a church tower in town. The military commander of Adana, Mustafa Remzi Pasa, made no attempt to validate these rumors, but nevertheless ordered his soldiers to strike back at the Armenians. On Sunday, April 25 at 1:00 p.m. a battalion attacked the Armenian school that housed the injured from the first wave of the massacres. Soldiers poured kerosene on the school and set it on fire with people inside. Regular soldiers, reserve soldiers, and mobs along with the Basibozuks attacked the Armenian Quarter. They burned down churches and schools. The conflagration in the city of Adana continued until Tuesday morning, April 27, and destroyed the entire Armenian residential quarter...
Étienne Dolet ( talk) 19:45, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
"The intensity of the carnage prompted the government to open an investigation, but the failure to prosecute dashed Armenian expectations of liberal reforms by the new regime. The reactionary elements of the Ottoman Empire were suspected of instigating the massacres to discredit the CUP, but the Young Turks were also implicated. The Adana Massacre exposed the twin composition of the Young Turk Movement, which consisted of both liberal and radical nationalist elements. It also demonstrated the convergent interests of the nationalists with the reactionary and conservative elements of Ottoman state in their policies toward a progressive-minded minority. For the Young Turks, the Adana Massacre proved a rehearsal for gauging the depth of Turkish animosity in the Ottoman Empire toward Christian minorities and for testing their skills in marshaling those forces for political ends. Despite the restoration of a constitutional government, the specter of mass violence was reintroduced as a mechanism of state power."
"Apart from the many wars, an incomplete list of mass violence in the Ottoman Empire would include: the 1909 Adana massacre, the violent expulsion of European Muslims especially after 1912, the 1915 deportation and genocide of Armenians and Syriacs, the 1921 Kocgiri and Pontus massacres, the mass violence against Kurds from the 1925 Sheikh Said conflict to the 1938 Dersim massacre, the 1934 anti-Jewish pogrom in Thrace, all the way up to and including the 1966 pogrom against Greeks and Armenians in Istanbul. Sociologically speaking, one could interpret these events as constituents of the "dark side" of the Turkish process of nation-building, of which violence was a defining feature. Unlike violence in modern German history, Young Turk violence and social engineering remains remarkably underresearched, both in Ottoman-Turkish studies and in genocide studies in general."
Sivas massacre doesn't belong in here, because this was an Islamist-led attack ("Allahu ekber") against Alevi people and the Atheist Aziz Nesin. Had nothing to do with nationalism. -- 194.166.198.168 ( talk) 23:42, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Despite the fact that you've never edited this article and just came out of nowhere to revert me, are you even reading the articles that you're removing?
Islamist millitants of the far-right Nationalist Movement Party (MHP) attacked a district where predominantly Alevi Turkish citizens live as a minority, causing the death of (according to an official source) 57 leftists and wounding hundreds of people, predominantly Alevi Turkish citizens. The Grey Wolves claimed responsibility for the pogrom.
You read that right, the MHP.
According to Balıkçı's lawyer Cem Halavurt, an investigation conducted on May 1, 2011 into the background (including his internet social networks, which were shut down after the incident) of the suspect, Kıvanç Ağaoglu, revealed that he was a Turkish ultra-nationalist. Through his Facebook profile, it was discovered that he was a sympathizer of nationalist politician Muhsin Yazıcıoğlu and Turkish agent / contract killer Abdullah Çatlı, who himself had a history of Anti-Armenian activity such as the Armenian Genocide Memorial bombing in a Paris suburb in 1984.[10][13][14] His Facebook profile also showed that he was a sympathizerof the Great Union Party (BBP), a far-right nationalist party in Turkey.
Nine protestors were immediately arrested under the charge of offending "Turkishness". Nine Jews and also a Russian individual witness to murder were arrested. Four of them were sentenced for the specific offense of "insulting Turkishness".
All these articles have to do with nationalism in one way shape or form, to say the least. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 05:14, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
The case of Sevag Balikci, as also pointed out in the article, was culminated with the perpetrator being jailed due to involuntary manslaughter.Okay, so what? Is the Turkish justice system the truth of all things? If that were the case, we'd have to say on Wikipedia that the Armenian Genocide is a lie because hey, the Turkish government and its agencies think that way so it must be a lie, right? Besides, regardless of whether you personally think this was voluntary or involuntary shouldn't matter much. The fact of the matter is there are sources that point out that indeed the killing was done by a nationalist. And whether it was an individual or a group shouldn't matter either. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 16:22, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
The membership or association with a certain party/group doesn't change the fact of the motivation and situation. So there's no point in pushing your POV any further. It's not my personal thought, it's a fact that there's no proof or actual confirmation about the nature of the murder. Hence any assumptions and indications from your part are baseless and don't belong here and into the template. The only fact here is that you can't support your view with according reliable sources. The Corum massacre article belongs into a template about militant Islamism, if there is one. Akocsg ( talk) 23:24, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
28 Mayıs 1980 günü 'milliyetçi gençlerin' faşist saldırılarda "Kana Kan İntikam- Kanımız aksa da zafer İslamın" haykırışlarıyla başlayan Çorum Katliamı 10 Temmuz 1980'e (yaklaşık 1,5 ay) kadar devam etti. Saldırılarda 57 Alevi yurttaş öldürülürken; 300'e yakın yurttaş yaralandı. 300'e yakın ev ve işyeri ise tahrip edilerek yıkıldı.
You seem to be a big fan of it when it reports on Kurds killing innocent people but when Turks are doing the very same thing, you suddenly begin insisting more "academic sources"is a personal attack. It is directly refuted by the evidence you cited [11]. It does not seem like you are interested in improving the article, only personal attacks, so I am going to work on something else. Seraphim System ( talk) 06:40, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
GGT and Seraphim System have pointed out that the Corum massacre and the Elza Niego case don't really fit into this template. So it is three users against you at the moment. The sources provided here further evidence this. Especially the Islamist nature of the Corum massacre has been underlined. The Balikci case is different, it could be included, though more evidence should be provided here. I can agree about including that one, though the other two articles definitely don't belong here, but into more fitting templates. Akocsg ( talk) 16:00, 30 March 2018 (UTC)