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I compressed the template as it was unnecessarily large. We don't need every single album and member of the band listed on every Beach Boys-related article. This exact same problem was present on other musician templates such as Template:Mariah Carey2, Template:Whitney Houston, Template:Jackson5 and Template:Madonna, which were all trimmed down in the same way that I edited this one. Extraordinary Machine 18:55, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I still prefer the template the way it is. It's informative, helpful and not overwhelming. BGC 19:04, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I think that David Marks, Blondie Chaplin, Ricky Fataar, and maybe Glen Campbell should be added to the info box. Maybe in a 'former member' section? Or it could be Original members and Added members. (Added sounds horrible, but I can't think of the word I want.)
I am not sure about Glen Campbell... he played on a lot of their albums in addition to touring with them, but it is not like he was sharing in the profits or anything. MookieZ 15:53, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
David Marks should be on the main members list, as I'm fairly certain he was considered a full royalty member when he was in the group, and still makes occasional appearances with The Beach Boys. Blondie Chaplin and Ricky Fataar were never full royalty members (according to Bruce Johnston on the Warmth of the Sun Podcast series), so if they are listed, it should be as a Secondary listing. -- Jbo110 17:55, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
There's two ways of looking at this. The people under "Members" are all part of the Beach Boys as a corporate entity, the "Former Members" are not. However, Brian, Al, Carl and Dennis are no longer "Beach Boys" in the strictest sense. Carl and Dennis are dead and Brian and Al have moved on. David Marks is more of a Beach Boys now than Al, Brian, Carl, and Dennis combined. If anything, at least Carl and Dennis should be considered former members, being that there is no chance they will ever record or tour with the Beach Boys ever again. If we want to keep the names in the categories as they are, maybe the new names can be "Official Members" and "Auxilliary Members" ? Whotookthatguy ( talk) 22:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Suggestions for improvements (don't really like the look/placement):
I'm not sure why Toni Tennille, Daryl Dragon and John Stamos were not added if Glen Campbell and Blondie Chaplin were? I would imagine the three will be deleted, but I have no idea why since their contribution was very similar to Glen and Blondie. Docob5 ( talk) 01:02, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
This looks like a total mess as is and, more importantly, never looked anything like this during the 14 years that the Mike and Bruce touring band existed prior to the 2012 reunion. The Mike and Bruce lineup only exists as a touring unit. Brian, Al, and David are not active in the touring band, but the future of the band as a recording group is still unclear (Mike said he'd like to write with Brian more, Al and Brian have said they want to keep making records together). To me, all members sans Blondie and Ricky should appear up top (with Dennis and Carl only departing due to their deaths) and no additional notes are really necessary. If any real changes should be made, it would be including Mike and Bruce up top, the members who aren't currently touring in the 2nd tier, and the departed members on the 3rd tier. Since this isn't entirely accurate and is kind of an unnecessary disservice to Al, Brian and David, I'd prefer to keep it how I edited it. Thoughts? 76.116.165.117 :( talk) 00:19, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
There must be a way to identify / seperate Carl Wilson and Dennis Wilson from Blondie Chaplin and Ricky Fataar. At the current lineup is listed (May 30, 2013), David Marks has main billing, while Carl and Dennis are billed with Blondie and Ricky. This doesn't seem right. Because the two are deceased, they appear to have been demoted to "former members". Docob5 ( talk) 12:25, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
How do we measure a band member's worth, which yardstick do we use? Is it their influence on the band's music, the length of their tenure or the amount of success they saw under their time in the band?
Blondie and Ricky turned around the Beach Boys' live show, added an element of funk/gospel/rock to the band and had an arguably stronger instrumental presence than Johnston or Marks did... Perhaps they belong on the top line. However, Bruce Johnston has been with been with the band from 1965-1972 (with a brief absence in 1967) and then 1979-2013, which is longer than Marks or Ricky and Blondie... Perhaps he belongs on the top line. That being said, David Marks has his guitar heard on six of the band's Gold certified albums (without counting compilation albums). That's a world away from Johnston's one with Pet Sounds and even further from Ricky and Blondie's zero... Perhaps he belongs on the top line.
Or perhaps none of them do. As you can see, it gets messy making arbitrary rules for who deserves that top line exposure and who doesn't. At the end of the day, everyone's going to have different ways of evaluating which Beach Boys are more worthy than other. However, there's no way people can argue with who are the founding members (Al, Mike, Brian, Card and Dennis) and who are the members who don't fall into that category (Blondie, Ricky, Bruce, David). For this reason, in the name of keeping things unbiased and uncontroversial, I'm proposing to keep it this way as to avoid future disputes. Jamekae ( talk) 15:51, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
I am in favour of adding Bruce Johnston to the top line. With all due respect, the Jardine/Love/Wilson/Wilson/Wilson line-up only lasted from late 1963 to early 1965 and again from late 1974 to early 1979. The Jardine/Johnston/Love/Wilson/Wilson/Wilson line-up lasted from mid 1965 to early 1972 and again from 1979 to Dennis's death. That line-up was present for their most famous and influential work: Pet Sounds and SMiLE, as well as a brilliant number of albums from Smiley Smile to Surf's Up. I'm fairly certain that most people would agree. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.96.96.204 ( talk) 04:32, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Johnston/Marks/Fataar/Chaplin are all inconsistent members which makes the distinction to me. Or "founders/alternates" as it was said. Johnston may have been on Pet Sounds, but hey, so was Glen Campbell. Also, I may be wrong, but I think it's been said that Johnston sold his portion of BRI shares back in the 1970s, which makes him even today an unofficial member. -- Ilovetopaint ( talk) 22:23, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
For all intents and purposes, Bruce Johnston is an official member. He's been an active member (in total) longer than anyone besides Mike. He only left once (1972), and has remained since his return (late 1978). Glen Campbell on the other hand was never an official member. He was only brought in for a very short time as a tour replacement for Brian before Johnston joined and became an official member. And unlike Johnston, Campbell was a session musician for Pet Sounds. And if you want to talk about inconsistency, everyone except Mike have been inconsistent to an extent. Brian from the 80's onwards, Carl leaving the band in 1981 (and came back after over a year), Dennis during the last few years of his life, and Jardine during the 90's. I think for all that above, and that Johnston was an official member for their most acclaimed work, should mean he belongs in the top line. For most people, Johnston can classify as being part of the classic line-up of The Beach Boys.
In any case, what matters is that Bruce Johnston has been an active official member since 1965, that's 49 years minus 6. He was/is no sideman or auxiliary member, he is a front-line genuine member. To this day, the two active current Beach Boys touring are Mike Love and Bruce Johnston. Not Mike Love and sidemen. At the end, the legal side doesn't matter. If we look at it that way, Ronnie Wood didn't become an official member of The Rolling Stones until Bill Wyman quit in 1993 and Wood gained his shares. There's been bands that lost ownership of their name because of their managers (who used it on fake bands) because of legal nonsense.
I still maintain that Bruce deserves a place in the top tier, considering everything. I'd also like to hear other people's opinion on this, and see what they think. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.96.96.204 ( talk) 12:11, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
Nobody can dispute the Jardine/Love/Wilsons lineup (see how they are cited as the 'original' members in [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]) while everyone has their own way of evaluating Johnston and Marks' worth in the band.
And so a conclusion can never be really determined. So there is the founders/alternates compromise, which is (mostly) non-disputable. (By the way, the Rolling Stone template is not comparable because it is operating under decidedly simpler principles.)-- Ilovetopaint ( talk) 00:37, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
I think this revision was in the right. Even though it's not really "THE Beach Boys," they're still an increasingly relevant configuration of their past members distinguishable from Johnston/Love.-- Ilovetopaint ( talk) 03:13, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Template talk:Paul McCartney main which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 00:00, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
There's been a lot of discussion over the years about who should be on the top line of the templet and who should be on the second. The Beach Boys have a long and complicated history, replete with lawsuits and family feuds. I see this page has a lot of discussion over who got full royalties, who was a steady member, etc. Those of us on the outside will never be able to untangle all this. I think the users of Wikipedia would be best served by the way I have it now, with all three Wilson Brothers on the top line along with Bruce, Mike and Al. Carl & Dennis have been dead a long time, but they were undoubtedly core members. David Marks was a founding member, but he left the band early and didn't come back for about 50 years or so. Ricky Fataar and Blondie Chaplin were more than sidemen. Timothy Horrigan ( talk) 13:44, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
the vast majority of the albums the Beach Boys did from 1965 to 1973 *are* critically acclaimed, and is where the band's artistic legacy as well as relevance among modern listeners lie
[...] I'm speaking from years of experience on Beach Boys fan forums and Facebook groups [...]
I noticed the third opinion request for this page, but I will not reply it because more than two editors are involved in the discussion. Furthermore, the first sentence above implies that the issue had been discussed by multiple editors for years, so I have to decline the request and remove this dispute from the list. As an alternative, I suggest you should try the dispute resolution noticeboard if you cannot reach a compromise on the issue. My impression is that almost no statement is verified by a reference to a reliable source in the above discussion. Without using reliable sources, I cannot imagine how a proper compromise could be achieved. Borsoka ( talk) 06:49, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
As per the discussions above in the thread started by Timothy Horrigan, should Bruce Johnston, a member of The Beach Boys since 1965 (with a break from 1972 to 1978) be included on the top members line on the main template for The Beach Boys? Request further comments beyond the two main participants of the above discussion. Thescrubbythug ( talk) 14:25, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
Squabble with no relevance to the article. Being resolved at
WP:ANI.
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Should Terry Melcher be included in this template? I'd argue yes, based on two major factors:
1) Melcher co-wrote (and was nominated for a Golden Globe for his work as a songwriter) on the Beach Boys last number one hit in the USA, Kokomo. For me, that's enough right there. In addition, Melcher produced the recording of the song as well.
2) Melcher was a major player, along with Beach Boy Dennis Wilson, in the events that led Charles Manson and his notorious followers to murder numerous people.
Produced and co-wrote BB's last number one hit, plus Manson involvement. Melcher is prominently mentioned in WP's articles on the topic. In my book, that more than qualifies inclusion, but my addition was reverted with the edit summary "This template would become absurdly large if we included associates who simply co-wrote one or two songs." As I have shown, Melcher didnt just write a filler album cut, he helped the Beach Boys top the charts. And yes, the Manson stuff is distasteful, but it's American history that the Beach Boys were deeply entangled in. Jusdafax ( talk) 09:15, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
Pop music Template‑class | |||||||
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I compressed the template as it was unnecessarily large. We don't need every single album and member of the band listed on every Beach Boys-related article. This exact same problem was present on other musician templates such as Template:Mariah Carey2, Template:Whitney Houston, Template:Jackson5 and Template:Madonna, which were all trimmed down in the same way that I edited this one. Extraordinary Machine 18:55, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I still prefer the template the way it is. It's informative, helpful and not overwhelming. BGC 19:04, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I think that David Marks, Blondie Chaplin, Ricky Fataar, and maybe Glen Campbell should be added to the info box. Maybe in a 'former member' section? Or it could be Original members and Added members. (Added sounds horrible, but I can't think of the word I want.)
I am not sure about Glen Campbell... he played on a lot of their albums in addition to touring with them, but it is not like he was sharing in the profits or anything. MookieZ 15:53, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
David Marks should be on the main members list, as I'm fairly certain he was considered a full royalty member when he was in the group, and still makes occasional appearances with The Beach Boys. Blondie Chaplin and Ricky Fataar were never full royalty members (according to Bruce Johnston on the Warmth of the Sun Podcast series), so if they are listed, it should be as a Secondary listing. -- Jbo110 17:55, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
There's two ways of looking at this. The people under "Members" are all part of the Beach Boys as a corporate entity, the "Former Members" are not. However, Brian, Al, Carl and Dennis are no longer "Beach Boys" in the strictest sense. Carl and Dennis are dead and Brian and Al have moved on. David Marks is more of a Beach Boys now than Al, Brian, Carl, and Dennis combined. If anything, at least Carl and Dennis should be considered former members, being that there is no chance they will ever record or tour with the Beach Boys ever again. If we want to keep the names in the categories as they are, maybe the new names can be "Official Members" and "Auxilliary Members" ? Whotookthatguy ( talk) 22:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Suggestions for improvements (don't really like the look/placement):
I'm not sure why Toni Tennille, Daryl Dragon and John Stamos were not added if Glen Campbell and Blondie Chaplin were? I would imagine the three will be deleted, but I have no idea why since their contribution was very similar to Glen and Blondie. Docob5 ( talk) 01:02, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
This looks like a total mess as is and, more importantly, never looked anything like this during the 14 years that the Mike and Bruce touring band existed prior to the 2012 reunion. The Mike and Bruce lineup only exists as a touring unit. Brian, Al, and David are not active in the touring band, but the future of the band as a recording group is still unclear (Mike said he'd like to write with Brian more, Al and Brian have said they want to keep making records together). To me, all members sans Blondie and Ricky should appear up top (with Dennis and Carl only departing due to their deaths) and no additional notes are really necessary. If any real changes should be made, it would be including Mike and Bruce up top, the members who aren't currently touring in the 2nd tier, and the departed members on the 3rd tier. Since this isn't entirely accurate and is kind of an unnecessary disservice to Al, Brian and David, I'd prefer to keep it how I edited it. Thoughts? 76.116.165.117 :( talk) 00:19, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
There must be a way to identify / seperate Carl Wilson and Dennis Wilson from Blondie Chaplin and Ricky Fataar. At the current lineup is listed (May 30, 2013), David Marks has main billing, while Carl and Dennis are billed with Blondie and Ricky. This doesn't seem right. Because the two are deceased, they appear to have been demoted to "former members". Docob5 ( talk) 12:25, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
How do we measure a band member's worth, which yardstick do we use? Is it their influence on the band's music, the length of their tenure or the amount of success they saw under their time in the band?
Blondie and Ricky turned around the Beach Boys' live show, added an element of funk/gospel/rock to the band and had an arguably stronger instrumental presence than Johnston or Marks did... Perhaps they belong on the top line. However, Bruce Johnston has been with been with the band from 1965-1972 (with a brief absence in 1967) and then 1979-2013, which is longer than Marks or Ricky and Blondie... Perhaps he belongs on the top line. That being said, David Marks has his guitar heard on six of the band's Gold certified albums (without counting compilation albums). That's a world away from Johnston's one with Pet Sounds and even further from Ricky and Blondie's zero... Perhaps he belongs on the top line.
Or perhaps none of them do. As you can see, it gets messy making arbitrary rules for who deserves that top line exposure and who doesn't. At the end of the day, everyone's going to have different ways of evaluating which Beach Boys are more worthy than other. However, there's no way people can argue with who are the founding members (Al, Mike, Brian, Card and Dennis) and who are the members who don't fall into that category (Blondie, Ricky, Bruce, David). For this reason, in the name of keeping things unbiased and uncontroversial, I'm proposing to keep it this way as to avoid future disputes. Jamekae ( talk) 15:51, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
I am in favour of adding Bruce Johnston to the top line. With all due respect, the Jardine/Love/Wilson/Wilson/Wilson line-up only lasted from late 1963 to early 1965 and again from late 1974 to early 1979. The Jardine/Johnston/Love/Wilson/Wilson/Wilson line-up lasted from mid 1965 to early 1972 and again from 1979 to Dennis's death. That line-up was present for their most famous and influential work: Pet Sounds and SMiLE, as well as a brilliant number of albums from Smiley Smile to Surf's Up. I'm fairly certain that most people would agree. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.96.96.204 ( talk) 04:32, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Johnston/Marks/Fataar/Chaplin are all inconsistent members which makes the distinction to me. Or "founders/alternates" as it was said. Johnston may have been on Pet Sounds, but hey, so was Glen Campbell. Also, I may be wrong, but I think it's been said that Johnston sold his portion of BRI shares back in the 1970s, which makes him even today an unofficial member. -- Ilovetopaint ( talk) 22:23, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
For all intents and purposes, Bruce Johnston is an official member. He's been an active member (in total) longer than anyone besides Mike. He only left once (1972), and has remained since his return (late 1978). Glen Campbell on the other hand was never an official member. He was only brought in for a very short time as a tour replacement for Brian before Johnston joined and became an official member. And unlike Johnston, Campbell was a session musician for Pet Sounds. And if you want to talk about inconsistency, everyone except Mike have been inconsistent to an extent. Brian from the 80's onwards, Carl leaving the band in 1981 (and came back after over a year), Dennis during the last few years of his life, and Jardine during the 90's. I think for all that above, and that Johnston was an official member for their most acclaimed work, should mean he belongs in the top line. For most people, Johnston can classify as being part of the classic line-up of The Beach Boys.
In any case, what matters is that Bruce Johnston has been an active official member since 1965, that's 49 years minus 6. He was/is no sideman or auxiliary member, he is a front-line genuine member. To this day, the two active current Beach Boys touring are Mike Love and Bruce Johnston. Not Mike Love and sidemen. At the end, the legal side doesn't matter. If we look at it that way, Ronnie Wood didn't become an official member of The Rolling Stones until Bill Wyman quit in 1993 and Wood gained his shares. There's been bands that lost ownership of their name because of their managers (who used it on fake bands) because of legal nonsense.
I still maintain that Bruce deserves a place in the top tier, considering everything. I'd also like to hear other people's opinion on this, and see what they think. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.96.96.204 ( talk) 12:11, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
Nobody can dispute the Jardine/Love/Wilsons lineup (see how they are cited as the 'original' members in [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]) while everyone has their own way of evaluating Johnston and Marks' worth in the band.
And so a conclusion can never be really determined. So there is the founders/alternates compromise, which is (mostly) non-disputable. (By the way, the Rolling Stone template is not comparable because it is operating under decidedly simpler principles.)-- Ilovetopaint ( talk) 00:37, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
I think this revision was in the right. Even though it's not really "THE Beach Boys," they're still an increasingly relevant configuration of their past members distinguishable from Johnston/Love.-- Ilovetopaint ( talk) 03:13, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Template talk:Paul McCartney main which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 00:00, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
There's been a lot of discussion over the years about who should be on the top line of the templet and who should be on the second. The Beach Boys have a long and complicated history, replete with lawsuits and family feuds. I see this page has a lot of discussion over who got full royalties, who was a steady member, etc. Those of us on the outside will never be able to untangle all this. I think the users of Wikipedia would be best served by the way I have it now, with all three Wilson Brothers on the top line along with Bruce, Mike and Al. Carl & Dennis have been dead a long time, but they were undoubtedly core members. David Marks was a founding member, but he left the band early and didn't come back for about 50 years or so. Ricky Fataar and Blondie Chaplin were more than sidemen. Timothy Horrigan ( talk) 13:44, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
the vast majority of the albums the Beach Boys did from 1965 to 1973 *are* critically acclaimed, and is where the band's artistic legacy as well as relevance among modern listeners lie
[...] I'm speaking from years of experience on Beach Boys fan forums and Facebook groups [...]
I noticed the third opinion request for this page, but I will not reply it because more than two editors are involved in the discussion. Furthermore, the first sentence above implies that the issue had been discussed by multiple editors for years, so I have to decline the request and remove this dispute from the list. As an alternative, I suggest you should try the dispute resolution noticeboard if you cannot reach a compromise on the issue. My impression is that almost no statement is verified by a reference to a reliable source in the above discussion. Without using reliable sources, I cannot imagine how a proper compromise could be achieved. Borsoka ( talk) 06:49, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
As per the discussions above in the thread started by Timothy Horrigan, should Bruce Johnston, a member of The Beach Boys since 1965 (with a break from 1972 to 1978) be included on the top members line on the main template for The Beach Boys? Request further comments beyond the two main participants of the above discussion. Thescrubbythug ( talk) 14:25, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
Squabble with no relevance to the article. Being resolved at
WP:ANI.
|
---|
|
Should Terry Melcher be included in this template? I'd argue yes, based on two major factors:
1) Melcher co-wrote (and was nominated for a Golden Globe for his work as a songwriter) on the Beach Boys last number one hit in the USA, Kokomo. For me, that's enough right there. In addition, Melcher produced the recording of the song as well.
2) Melcher was a major player, along with Beach Boy Dennis Wilson, in the events that led Charles Manson and his notorious followers to murder numerous people.
Produced and co-wrote BB's last number one hit, plus Manson involvement. Melcher is prominently mentioned in WP's articles on the topic. In my book, that more than qualifies inclusion, but my addition was reverted with the edit summary "This template would become absurdly large if we included associates who simply co-wrote one or two songs." As I have shown, Melcher didnt just write a filler album cut, he helped the Beach Boys top the charts. And yes, the Manson stuff is distasteful, but it's American history that the Beach Boys were deeply entangled in. Jusdafax ( talk) 09:15, 13 March 2022 (UTC)