This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Salafi template. |
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Islam: Salaf Template‑class | ||||||||||
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What is Salafiyyah ?
Salafism [or Salafiyyah] is the true Path in following Islam and the Sunnah. A Salafi is one who follows the path of the Salaf As-Sālih exactly without alteration.
What is a Salafi?
To be a Salafi means adhering to the Creed, Methodology and the way of life of the Salaf As-Sālih (the Pious Predecessors). The earliest Salaf were the generation of our Prophet ﷺ and his Companions. Then after them came the two virtuous generations of believers who held fast to the Sunnah (Path) of the Prophet and his Companions. After the Companions came The Tab’ian then the Tabi Tab’ian [Hadith in Evidence Section]. The person who understands this path correctly, follows it exactly, without introducing anything into it and nor deviating from it is a Salafi.
Who do we take from ?
We take from the Quran & Sunnah by the understanding of the Salaf. We also take from all 4 of the Madhab’s and we are not Fanatical about anyone one of them. We understand they were human and they could make errors.
What do we do when we differ ?
We don’t differ in matters of Aqeedah because the 4 Madhabs are all one in Aqeedah. However in matters of Fiqh we differ which is normal as the Sahaba differed in matters of Fiqh. If we do differ we will take the Sahih Narration and stick to it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abu Āaliyah ( talk • contribs) 19:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
It's clear to someone familiar with Muslim sects that this, template, in its current form, was designed solely to malign the Salafist movement. The fact that the creator of the template is a member of the Barelvi movement as clear by their name - and these two movements have an intense, acrimonious rivalry - says a lot, as does the creator's new category, "Wahhabi." This template can be salvaged as other Muslim movements also have templates, but it needs serious work before being moved into the relevant article. MezzoMezzo ( talk) 03:42, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
Where as Salafi movement opposes this tradition of Taqlid and focused on relying directly on the basic sources of Islam.I came to know through various sources that Osama bin Laden and Lashkar-e-Taiba subscribe to Salafi movement.Correct me ,if I am wrong. Rashid Rida may be moved to moved up. Sunnibarelvi ( talk) 14:26, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
I think we can all agree that this template should be placed in all articles under the Central figures, Organizations, Trends and Notable individuals sections. Surely, it can be put on other articles as well. Any suggestions, Sunnibarelvi? Or from anyone else? MezzoMezzo ( talk) 20:21, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
The template currently has listed the following "Central Figures":
Whilst Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Qayyim might be highly respected by the Salafi movement, neither of them should be defined as Salafi given that they died about 700 years before the Salafi movement came into existence.
I would suggest removing both names and adding a new section entitled "Key Influences" where Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Qayyim can be listed. RookTaker ( talk) 22:58, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Whilst it seems quite clear that the views of Muhammad Abduh and Rashid Rida are quite different to conservative Salafi scholars (such as Muhammad ibn al Uthaymeen), both individuals have been classified as belonging to the Salafi movement by academics. There are literally dozens of references for this such as:
"In the late 1800s, reformers Jamal al-Din al-Afghani and Muhammad Abduh established the Salafi, a movement to reform and renew Muslim life." John Esposito, The Islamic World: Past and Present, p. 165. Oxford University Press
"Salafiyya was a religious reform movement founded by the Egyptian Muhammed Abduh, a student of Jamal al-Din al-Afghani. Abduh and the Salafis sought to create a renaissance of Islamic culture and society...." Spencer D. Segalla, The Moroccan Soul. French Education, Colonial Ethnology, and Muslim Resistance, 1912-1956, p. 189. University of Nebraska Press.
They were not salafi.They were actually modernist reformer.Just they used term "salafiyya" for their movement, does not mean that they should be included in this article.This templet is not about modernist movement this is about Salafi movement.Salafism in the sense which is the state religion of Saudi Arabia is according to Stephane Lacroix (a Postdoctoral Fellow and Lecturer at Sciences Po in Paris)
" As opposed to Wahhabism, Salafism refers here to all the hybridations that have taken place since the 1960s between the teachings of Muhammad bin ‘Abd al-Wahhab and other Islamic schools of thought. Al-Albani’s discourse can therefore be a form of Salafism, while being critical of Wahhabism" (ref: https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/handle/1887/17210/ISIM_21_Al-Albani-s_Revolutionary_Approach_to_Hadith.pdf?sequence=1 , page-2)
and according to Dillon, Michael R: " Salafism of 19th century under such key figures as Jamal al-Din al-Afghani, Muhammad Abdu, and Rashid Rida, which were referred to as Islamic modernists. Their form of Salafism was fundamentally different from contemporary Salafism (ref: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a509109.pdf , page-33)
The confusion you are facing can be understood from below qoute: " There has been some confusion in recent years because both the Islamic modernists and the contemporary Salafis refer (referred) to themselves as al-salafiyya, leading some observers to erroneously conclude a common ideological lineage. The earlier salafiyya, however, were predominantly rationalist Asharis. During an interview in Jordan, one Salafi emphasized this distinction by citing Muhammad Abduh’s interpretation of the jinn, a creature referenced in the Qur’an. According to this respondent, Abduh’s understanding of the jinn as microbes or germs demonstrates his rationalist credentials: not only does it indicate a metaphorical approach to the Qur’an, but it also implies the influence of the West on his thinking.17 Muhammad Abduh and other similar thinkers are frequently excoriated as deviant rationalists. Some go as far as to claim they were British agents, planted to specifically undermine the purity of Islam."(ref: http://archives.cerium.ca/IMG/pdf/WIKTOROWICZ_2006_Anatomy_of_the_Salafi_Movement.pdf ,Page-212) Ejaz92 ( talk) 10:52, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Hello, @ RookTaker: 1).Those who found the origine of salafism in the Islamic modernist movement they miss understood salafism for Islamism or Salafi approach of hadith study.In this respect Muslim brotherhood and like modernist offshoots are considered as Salafist in their eye.and if it is the case then why notentioning Hasan al-banna with abduh.Why abduh and rida only.Banna too called his movement brotherhood a salafi movement.
"Salafism .......... that emerged in late 19th century under such key figures as Jamal al-Din al-Afghani, Muhammad Abdu, and Rashid Rida, which were referred to as Islamic modernists" [From the same document where youbquoted from] Moreover we already have Islamic modernism named article on wikipedia.You why not you make different templete for it.
Here is so more proof: " This is why some scholars wrongly describe al-Afghani and Abdu as the fathers of salafiyya—they are definitely not, and all their thinking is a movement away from the salafism of Wahhabism or the traditionalism of Sunni thought."
( http://conflictsforum.org/briefings/Wahhabism-Salafism-and-Islamism.pdf )
See what salafis aay about the early Salafiyyah:
http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/downloads/pdf/MNJ180008.pdf
Ejaz92 ( talk) 18:34, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
@
RookTaker:
1).
"Rashid Rida popularized the term 'Salafī' to describe a particular movement (i.e.,Islamic modernism) that he spearheaded. That movement sought to reject the ossification of the madhhabs , and rethink through the standard issues of fiqh and modernity, at times in very liberal ways. A young scholar by the name of Muhammad Nasiruddin al-Albani read an article by Rida, and then took this term and used it to describe another, completely different movement. Ironically, the movement that Rida spearheaded eventually became Modernist Islam and dropped the 'Salafī' label, and the legal methodology that al-Albānī championed – with a very minimal overlap with Rida's vision of Islam – retained the appellation Salafī'. Eventually, al-Albānī's label was adopted by the Najdī daʿwah as well, until it spread in all trends of the movement. Otherwise, before this century, the term 'Salafī' was not used as a common label and proper noun. Therefore, the term 'Salafī' has attached itself to an age-old school of theology, the Atharī school"
(On salafi islam by dr.yasir qadi)
Whatever proofs you are providing can be answered : a). " There has been some confusion in recent years because both the Islamic modernists and the contemporary Salafis refer (referred) to themselves as al-salafiyya, leading some observers to erroneously conclude a common ideological lineage. The earlier salafiyya, however, were predominantly rationalist Asharis. During an interview in Jordan, one Salafi emphasized this distinction by citing Muhammad Abduh’s interpretation of the jinn, a creature referenced in the Qur’an. According to this respondent, Abduh’s understanding of the jinn as microbes or germs demonstrates his rationalist credentials: not only does it indicate a metaphorical approach to the Qur’an, but it also implies the influence of the West on his thinking.17 Muhammad Abduh and other similar thinkers are frequently excoriated as deviant rationalists. Some go as far as to claim they were British agents, planted to specifically undermine the purity of Islam."(ref: http://archives.cerium.ca/IMG/pdf/ WIKTOROWICZ_2006_Anatomy_of_the_Salafi_ Movement.pdf)
( WIKTOROWICZ and dr.yasir qadhi is regarded as the most relieble and usefull article on net for the study of salafism.)
or
b).Those who found the origine of salafism in the Islamic modernist movement they miss understood salafism for Islamism or Salafi approach of hadith study.
2).you said:
" However, like pretty much all groups, the Salafi movement is not a monolithic entity. If you read the Salafi Movement article you will see that we already have sub- categories such as Madkhalism , Salafist activism, Salafist jihadism and Qutbism . Each sub-category is still part of the Salafi movement but differs from on another in some respects"
Ans: All the sub-group you named is actually groups with in the salafism they all are salafi in creed(i.e., Atharis anti- kalaamis), creed of scholars like inb taymiyya, inb Qaiyyim etc. They all consider ibn abdul wahhab as the first salafi figure in the modern era. They all stemed from wahhabi movement.These are the conditions on which a group is considered as salafi.
Take an example: when we say the word "salary" what does it mean?If I am saying I got my salary today would it mean that I got "salt" today?Offcourse not. If you see the history of the word "salary" you would find that the word came from a Latin word "salārium" which meant salt money, because salt was the salary for ancient roman military, labourers.But now when we use the word salary we always mean money(paper currency).In the same respect the word salafism came from the slogans of the figures from Islamic modernist movement, for which we already have an article.
3). as for you suggestion to give a place to abduh and rida in the Salafi movement article, I would say you are right we should add them and their movement but under the heading "Other usage of the word salafism" or any heading like this.
finally I would request you to read with open mind from start to end our discussion. Hope you would find the correct understanding.
Ejaz92 ( talk) 19:04, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
As per talk suggestions I've overhauled the template and restructured it. I hope you all like the new template. Sakimonk talk 15:15, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Salafi template. |
|
Islam: Salaf Template‑class | ||||||||||
|
What is Salafiyyah ?
Salafism [or Salafiyyah] is the true Path in following Islam and the Sunnah. A Salafi is one who follows the path of the Salaf As-Sālih exactly without alteration.
What is a Salafi?
To be a Salafi means adhering to the Creed, Methodology and the way of life of the Salaf As-Sālih (the Pious Predecessors). The earliest Salaf were the generation of our Prophet ﷺ and his Companions. Then after them came the two virtuous generations of believers who held fast to the Sunnah (Path) of the Prophet and his Companions. After the Companions came The Tab’ian then the Tabi Tab’ian [Hadith in Evidence Section]. The person who understands this path correctly, follows it exactly, without introducing anything into it and nor deviating from it is a Salafi.
Who do we take from ?
We take from the Quran & Sunnah by the understanding of the Salaf. We also take from all 4 of the Madhab’s and we are not Fanatical about anyone one of them. We understand they were human and they could make errors.
What do we do when we differ ?
We don’t differ in matters of Aqeedah because the 4 Madhabs are all one in Aqeedah. However in matters of Fiqh we differ which is normal as the Sahaba differed in matters of Fiqh. If we do differ we will take the Sahih Narration and stick to it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abu Āaliyah ( talk • contribs) 19:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
It's clear to someone familiar with Muslim sects that this, template, in its current form, was designed solely to malign the Salafist movement. The fact that the creator of the template is a member of the Barelvi movement as clear by their name - and these two movements have an intense, acrimonious rivalry - says a lot, as does the creator's new category, "Wahhabi." This template can be salvaged as other Muslim movements also have templates, but it needs serious work before being moved into the relevant article. MezzoMezzo ( talk) 03:42, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
Where as Salafi movement opposes this tradition of Taqlid and focused on relying directly on the basic sources of Islam.I came to know through various sources that Osama bin Laden and Lashkar-e-Taiba subscribe to Salafi movement.Correct me ,if I am wrong. Rashid Rida may be moved to moved up. Sunnibarelvi ( talk) 14:26, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
I think we can all agree that this template should be placed in all articles under the Central figures, Organizations, Trends and Notable individuals sections. Surely, it can be put on other articles as well. Any suggestions, Sunnibarelvi? Or from anyone else? MezzoMezzo ( talk) 20:21, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
The template currently has listed the following "Central Figures":
Whilst Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Qayyim might be highly respected by the Salafi movement, neither of them should be defined as Salafi given that they died about 700 years before the Salafi movement came into existence.
I would suggest removing both names and adding a new section entitled "Key Influences" where Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Qayyim can be listed. RookTaker ( talk) 22:58, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Whilst it seems quite clear that the views of Muhammad Abduh and Rashid Rida are quite different to conservative Salafi scholars (such as Muhammad ibn al Uthaymeen), both individuals have been classified as belonging to the Salafi movement by academics. There are literally dozens of references for this such as:
"In the late 1800s, reformers Jamal al-Din al-Afghani and Muhammad Abduh established the Salafi, a movement to reform and renew Muslim life." John Esposito, The Islamic World: Past and Present, p. 165. Oxford University Press
"Salafiyya was a religious reform movement founded by the Egyptian Muhammed Abduh, a student of Jamal al-Din al-Afghani. Abduh and the Salafis sought to create a renaissance of Islamic culture and society...." Spencer D. Segalla, The Moroccan Soul. French Education, Colonial Ethnology, and Muslim Resistance, 1912-1956, p. 189. University of Nebraska Press.
They were not salafi.They were actually modernist reformer.Just they used term "salafiyya" for their movement, does not mean that they should be included in this article.This templet is not about modernist movement this is about Salafi movement.Salafism in the sense which is the state religion of Saudi Arabia is according to Stephane Lacroix (a Postdoctoral Fellow and Lecturer at Sciences Po in Paris)
" As opposed to Wahhabism, Salafism refers here to all the hybridations that have taken place since the 1960s between the teachings of Muhammad bin ‘Abd al-Wahhab and other Islamic schools of thought. Al-Albani’s discourse can therefore be a form of Salafism, while being critical of Wahhabism" (ref: https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/handle/1887/17210/ISIM_21_Al-Albani-s_Revolutionary_Approach_to_Hadith.pdf?sequence=1 , page-2)
and according to Dillon, Michael R: " Salafism of 19th century under such key figures as Jamal al-Din al-Afghani, Muhammad Abdu, and Rashid Rida, which were referred to as Islamic modernists. Their form of Salafism was fundamentally different from contemporary Salafism (ref: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a509109.pdf , page-33)
The confusion you are facing can be understood from below qoute: " There has been some confusion in recent years because both the Islamic modernists and the contemporary Salafis refer (referred) to themselves as al-salafiyya, leading some observers to erroneously conclude a common ideological lineage. The earlier salafiyya, however, were predominantly rationalist Asharis. During an interview in Jordan, one Salafi emphasized this distinction by citing Muhammad Abduh’s interpretation of the jinn, a creature referenced in the Qur’an. According to this respondent, Abduh’s understanding of the jinn as microbes or germs demonstrates his rationalist credentials: not only does it indicate a metaphorical approach to the Qur’an, but it also implies the influence of the West on his thinking.17 Muhammad Abduh and other similar thinkers are frequently excoriated as deviant rationalists. Some go as far as to claim they were British agents, planted to specifically undermine the purity of Islam."(ref: http://archives.cerium.ca/IMG/pdf/WIKTOROWICZ_2006_Anatomy_of_the_Salafi_Movement.pdf ,Page-212) Ejaz92 ( talk) 10:52, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Hello, @ RookTaker: 1).Those who found the origine of salafism in the Islamic modernist movement they miss understood salafism for Islamism or Salafi approach of hadith study.In this respect Muslim brotherhood and like modernist offshoots are considered as Salafist in their eye.and if it is the case then why notentioning Hasan al-banna with abduh.Why abduh and rida only.Banna too called his movement brotherhood a salafi movement.
"Salafism .......... that emerged in late 19th century under such key figures as Jamal al-Din al-Afghani, Muhammad Abdu, and Rashid Rida, which were referred to as Islamic modernists" [From the same document where youbquoted from] Moreover we already have Islamic modernism named article on wikipedia.You why not you make different templete for it.
Here is so more proof: " This is why some scholars wrongly describe al-Afghani and Abdu as the fathers of salafiyya—they are definitely not, and all their thinking is a movement away from the salafism of Wahhabism or the traditionalism of Sunni thought."
( http://conflictsforum.org/briefings/Wahhabism-Salafism-and-Islamism.pdf )
See what salafis aay about the early Salafiyyah:
http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/downloads/pdf/MNJ180008.pdf
Ejaz92 ( talk) 18:34, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
@
RookTaker:
1).
"Rashid Rida popularized the term 'Salafī' to describe a particular movement (i.e.,Islamic modernism) that he spearheaded. That movement sought to reject the ossification of the madhhabs , and rethink through the standard issues of fiqh and modernity, at times in very liberal ways. A young scholar by the name of Muhammad Nasiruddin al-Albani read an article by Rida, and then took this term and used it to describe another, completely different movement. Ironically, the movement that Rida spearheaded eventually became Modernist Islam and dropped the 'Salafī' label, and the legal methodology that al-Albānī championed – with a very minimal overlap with Rida's vision of Islam – retained the appellation Salafī'. Eventually, al-Albānī's label was adopted by the Najdī daʿwah as well, until it spread in all trends of the movement. Otherwise, before this century, the term 'Salafī' was not used as a common label and proper noun. Therefore, the term 'Salafī' has attached itself to an age-old school of theology, the Atharī school"
(On salafi islam by dr.yasir qadi)
Whatever proofs you are providing can be answered : a). " There has been some confusion in recent years because both the Islamic modernists and the contemporary Salafis refer (referred) to themselves as al-salafiyya, leading some observers to erroneously conclude a common ideological lineage. The earlier salafiyya, however, were predominantly rationalist Asharis. During an interview in Jordan, one Salafi emphasized this distinction by citing Muhammad Abduh’s interpretation of the jinn, a creature referenced in the Qur’an. According to this respondent, Abduh’s understanding of the jinn as microbes or germs demonstrates his rationalist credentials: not only does it indicate a metaphorical approach to the Qur’an, but it also implies the influence of the West on his thinking.17 Muhammad Abduh and other similar thinkers are frequently excoriated as deviant rationalists. Some go as far as to claim they were British agents, planted to specifically undermine the purity of Islam."(ref: http://archives.cerium.ca/IMG/pdf/ WIKTOROWICZ_2006_Anatomy_of_the_Salafi_ Movement.pdf)
( WIKTOROWICZ and dr.yasir qadhi is regarded as the most relieble and usefull article on net for the study of salafism.)
or
b).Those who found the origine of salafism in the Islamic modernist movement they miss understood salafism for Islamism or Salafi approach of hadith study.
2).you said:
" However, like pretty much all groups, the Salafi movement is not a monolithic entity. If you read the Salafi Movement article you will see that we already have sub- categories such as Madkhalism , Salafist activism, Salafist jihadism and Qutbism . Each sub-category is still part of the Salafi movement but differs from on another in some respects"
Ans: All the sub-group you named is actually groups with in the salafism they all are salafi in creed(i.e., Atharis anti- kalaamis), creed of scholars like inb taymiyya, inb Qaiyyim etc. They all consider ibn abdul wahhab as the first salafi figure in the modern era. They all stemed from wahhabi movement.These are the conditions on which a group is considered as salafi.
Take an example: when we say the word "salary" what does it mean?If I am saying I got my salary today would it mean that I got "salt" today?Offcourse not. If you see the history of the word "salary" you would find that the word came from a Latin word "salārium" which meant salt money, because salt was the salary for ancient roman military, labourers.But now when we use the word salary we always mean money(paper currency).In the same respect the word salafism came from the slogans of the figures from Islamic modernist movement, for which we already have an article.
3). as for you suggestion to give a place to abduh and rida in the Salafi movement article, I would say you are right we should add them and their movement but under the heading "Other usage of the word salafism" or any heading like this.
finally I would request you to read with open mind from start to end our discussion. Hope you would find the correct understanding.
Ejaz92 ( talk) 19:04, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
As per talk suggestions I've overhauled the template and restructured it. I hope you all like the new template. Sakimonk talk 15:15, 17 August 2015 (UTC)