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The reason why I have deleted the use of the term Macedonia in this template is because Macedonia is a region, not a state. If you wish to describe the Slavomacedonian national awakening, please do so using a different, not provocative manner for Greek Macedonians. Kapnisma 08:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
My concern is the use of the term. You can't use this term only for Slavomacedonians, it creates confusion. You can rename it National Awakening of Slavs in Macedonia, or National Awakening of Slavomacedonians. And since there is a debate on this matter by insisting on to use this term in this template, you are clearly ignoring the views of Greek Macedonians Kapnisma 09:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I like your sence of humour.
I would like to clarify my view on the subject. My problem is not the name of these ethnic groups, my problem is the use of the term Macedonia only for Slavomacedonians. In this template you include all the nations in Balkans by their homelands Greece for Greeks, Bulgaria for Bulgarians, etc. When you write Macedonia you obviously consider that their homeland is Macedonia. That thing is insulting for me, Greek Macedonians, Greeks. Kapnisma 09:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Exactly! Macedonia is a region which includes many Macedonians Greek ones, Slav ones, Bulgarian ones, etc. The problem starts when someone tries to use this term to describe not a nationality, but a state. Slavomacedonians have a state that self identifies as RoM, while is officially recognised as FYRoM, untill a solution on the dispute is found. When you describe their state as Macedonia you are not objective, you are clearly supporting their views and ignoring Greek ones.
Kapnisma 10:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
When I say "officially recognised", I mean EU, UN, NATO, etc. All I am saying is that since the name of the state is not permanent and under negotiation, by calling their country Macedonia promotes their POV. I'm not asking to use Greek POV instead, but a temporary name suggested by the international community. Kapnisma 12:04, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I' ve also seen some minor changes that you have done with the term Slavomacedonians (usage as slur, etc), while I agree with them I'm expecting that you also do the same for the term Macedonian when used to decribe Slavomacedonians (that it is offensive for Greek Macedonians, etc) since you seem to believe in neutrality. Kapnisma 12:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
So you both say that you like the fact that people have to know all this in order not confuse this with this or this or this or this; and that with that or that or that; and these with these or these or these or these or these or these; thereby not to help promote the idea that these are not the descendants of these (or even him [1], who also slaughtered them, who were the major ancestors of them -probably in an amok against his own), and that doesn't sound at all like that, and this is not an occupied territory of this by this and this? I call that oppression of the unaware... Can you imagine? Instead of disambiguating it with one (ANY) word, we have to explain all that to the poor uninformed... Ah, I forgot: 99% of those uninformed don't give a shit, so they naturally assume that these who speak that and live in there, are the descendants of these that spoke that and should of course live there (so naturally those who support this are right...)
PS. Try to understand what I mean without mouse-hovering, because that's what we get down to without proper disambiguation (and that's how the minds of all people work when they are constantly used to face e.g. these speaking that and living there, descending from them)... Niko Silver 17:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Is User:Macrakis really Greek? Cambridge, Massachusetts wasn't in Greece last time I checked. Being an American of Greek ancestry is not quite the same thing, I'm afraid. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 19:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
On a different issue Fransiscule, when does this "Macedonian" national awakening start? With Misirkov who uses "Macedonians" and "Macedonian Slavs" interchangeably (in which case it's debatable why we can't use the word SLAV in the template) and affirms the bulgarianness of Skopje, with Tito, or with Alexander the Great? // Dirak 14:10, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for the missing code, Niko. Never was much of a programmer. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 11:02, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
...is missing. -- PaxEquilibrium ( talk) 14:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Europe Template‑class | |||||||
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Politics Template‑class | |||||||
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The reason why I have deleted the use of the term Macedonia in this template is because Macedonia is a region, not a state. If you wish to describe the Slavomacedonian national awakening, please do so using a different, not provocative manner for Greek Macedonians. Kapnisma 08:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
My concern is the use of the term. You can't use this term only for Slavomacedonians, it creates confusion. You can rename it National Awakening of Slavs in Macedonia, or National Awakening of Slavomacedonians. And since there is a debate on this matter by insisting on to use this term in this template, you are clearly ignoring the views of Greek Macedonians Kapnisma 09:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I like your sence of humour.
I would like to clarify my view on the subject. My problem is not the name of these ethnic groups, my problem is the use of the term Macedonia only for Slavomacedonians. In this template you include all the nations in Balkans by their homelands Greece for Greeks, Bulgaria for Bulgarians, etc. When you write Macedonia you obviously consider that their homeland is Macedonia. That thing is insulting for me, Greek Macedonians, Greeks. Kapnisma 09:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Exactly! Macedonia is a region which includes many Macedonians Greek ones, Slav ones, Bulgarian ones, etc. The problem starts when someone tries to use this term to describe not a nationality, but a state. Slavomacedonians have a state that self identifies as RoM, while is officially recognised as FYRoM, untill a solution on the dispute is found. When you describe their state as Macedonia you are not objective, you are clearly supporting their views and ignoring Greek ones.
Kapnisma 10:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
When I say "officially recognised", I mean EU, UN, NATO, etc. All I am saying is that since the name of the state is not permanent and under negotiation, by calling their country Macedonia promotes their POV. I'm not asking to use Greek POV instead, but a temporary name suggested by the international community. Kapnisma 12:04, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I' ve also seen some minor changes that you have done with the term Slavomacedonians (usage as slur, etc), while I agree with them I'm expecting that you also do the same for the term Macedonian when used to decribe Slavomacedonians (that it is offensive for Greek Macedonians, etc) since you seem to believe in neutrality. Kapnisma 12:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
So you both say that you like the fact that people have to know all this in order not confuse this with this or this or this or this; and that with that or that or that; and these with these or these or these or these or these or these; thereby not to help promote the idea that these are not the descendants of these (or even him [1], who also slaughtered them, who were the major ancestors of them -probably in an amok against his own), and that doesn't sound at all like that, and this is not an occupied territory of this by this and this? I call that oppression of the unaware... Can you imagine? Instead of disambiguating it with one (ANY) word, we have to explain all that to the poor uninformed... Ah, I forgot: 99% of those uninformed don't give a shit, so they naturally assume that these who speak that and live in there, are the descendants of these that spoke that and should of course live there (so naturally those who support this are right...)
PS. Try to understand what I mean without mouse-hovering, because that's what we get down to without proper disambiguation (and that's how the minds of all people work when they are constantly used to face e.g. these speaking that and living there, descending from them)... Niko Silver 17:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Is User:Macrakis really Greek? Cambridge, Massachusetts wasn't in Greece last time I checked. Being an American of Greek ancestry is not quite the same thing, I'm afraid. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 19:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
On a different issue Fransiscule, when does this "Macedonian" national awakening start? With Misirkov who uses "Macedonians" and "Macedonian Slavs" interchangeably (in which case it's debatable why we can't use the word SLAV in the template) and affirms the bulgarianness of Skopje, with Tito, or with Alexander the Great? // Dirak 14:10, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for the missing code, Niko. Never was much of a programmer. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 11:02, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
...is missing. -- PaxEquilibrium ( talk) 14:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)