I question the order of articles featured in the template. My own suggestion is that the links be placed in alphabetical order and it was with this in mind that I made my edit. It was never my intention to "make work". I should point out that there was no "removed link".
As it is there appears to be no rhyme or reason concerning the overall order. What is described as the "order of importance" places The Holocaust twelfth of thirteen!
I think listing "countries as per number of Righteous" is a bit odd, as if one deserves mention before another. And why is it that Croatians and Norwegians are listed as "Croatian Righteous" and "Norwegian Righteous", instead of Croatian Righteous Among the Nations and Norwegian Righteous Among the Nations? 99.242.171.73 ( talk) 19:30, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm glad we're communicating and am quite impressed with your analysis. This template is inspired of course by the article Righteous Among the Nations - with one of its main features being the large table listing the Righteous per their country of origin - with Poland appearing in the first line, Netherlands in the second, France in the third and so on. My intention was to hotlink the existing articles in the same order which I called the order of importance (table only). I was limited by the lack of many such articles as well. That's how I ended up listing Twentieth convoy instead of nonexistent Belgian Righteous Among the Nations and Glass House (Budapest) instead of nonexistent Hungarian Righteous Among the Nations. I wanted to mention at least the first countries listed in that table and admit that I was forced to make a few arbitrary decisions. There's no Danish Righteous Among the Nations article and no French Righteous Among the Nations so I couldn't list them here. You say, no "one deserves mention before another". That's an arbitrary thought. For example, there were two (2) Righteous in Brazil. If you believe that Brazil ought to be mentioned at the very top of that table in "alphabetical order", why don't you try to convince the community to reformat that table in that order? Or maybe, you'd prefer the table to be deleted since "listing 'countries as per number of Righteous' is a bit odd" according to your initial statement? I don't think so.
This is a very quick exchange of notes which resulted in some unfortunate foreshortenings. When I was referring to the order of importance I meant the number of Righteous, and not the hotlinks to Holocaust, Yad Vashem, Seven Laws of Noah and so on. I have no problem listing the Holocaust right under the main article if that is justified. Template:The Holocaust however is quite extensive already and in my opinion should only be supplemented with the Template:Righteous when needed. - Like true book editors, we need to make decisions here other than putting everything in alphabetical order. Nobody does it that way in the real world, so please, try to rearrange the links for me here in a way that makes sense to you, but other than alphabetically. -- Poeticbent talk 16:12, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
“In the real world”, when dealing with a collection of articles written around the same subject (i.e. the Righteous Among the Nations) editors decide how to arrange them for publishing, be it for a Home Page, a book of collected essays, an annual or a magazine, with the Table of Contents similar to any Wikipedia template (i.e. Template:Righteous). I'm asking, what kind of alphabetical, historical, numerical or perhaps readibility order would be most user-friendly in such a case? Template:The Holocaust for example, is not arranged alphabetically and honestly I don't get the sense of a strong underlying logic in it either. Try to imagine yourself arranging mere twelve articles like a library catalogue, can you? I can't. Your example, the listing of Righteous "per Country & Ethnic Origin" from www1.yadvashem.org is convincing only because these are the figures not articles, and still, they are fitted with a disclosure. In fact the same portal offers a collection of active links to pages of interest under the title On-line Exhibitions and no “alphabetical order” is assumed. Perhaps, you would prefer to have this template preformatted with an automatic feature similar to that of the main article’s table, switching the titles in two different ways on demand? Maybe that would satisfy your sense of fairness? At this point however, a new request for an impartial comment would probably be a good idea. -- Poeticbent talk 02:09, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
I hope I can help you two with a third opinion. Sorry it took long ;)
My suggestion:
Example:
General
Groups and events (abc)
Monuments and memorials (abc)
Will monitor this page for any comments. Greetings, Species8473 ( talk) 06:02, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Righteous among the Nations |
Main article The Holocaust Rescuers assisting Jews Righteousness Seven Laws of Noah Yad Vashem |
Famous individuals |
---|
Selected topics |
Righteous by country |
Even though the Template:Righteous seems to be improving, the more I think about the coverage of the entire subject, the more doubts I have about the outcome. For example, our article the List of Righteous among the Nations by country is a collection of arbitrarily selected names out of 22,211 men and women [3] most of whom are absent from that list. The so called list is not a list but a sampler with whomever wants to add a new name to it without as much as a stub for verifiability. That’s not good enough and the list should be renamed accordingly. By the same token, even if the actual life stories of the rescuers are most captivating, the missing articles make any attempt at fair coverage impossible. We’re limited by what we have, which is a hodgepodge of articles already existing. When you say: "I don’t think that one nationality or ethnic group deserves mention over another," you depart from the fact that these are not Yad Vashem depositions, but our in-house resources.
Anyhow, I included my own proposal to the right which is a working copy reflective of my own sense of limitations, nonetheless, offering a selection of useful internal links. Please take a look, and feel free to change it if my proposal appeals to you at all. I replaced the link to Christian ethics with a more appropriate Righteousness. Cheers, Poeticbent talk 20:09, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Template:Righteous has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — Wiki11790 talk 05:26, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
There exists disagreement concerning the order of Righteous Among the Nations by country, the inclusion of Twentieth convoy in lieu of an article on the Belgian Righteous Among the Nations, and the absence of a link to Chinese Righteous Among the Nations. The discussion begins under "Order" and continues under "My proposal". 99.242.171.73 ( talk) 14:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
I question the order of articles featured in the template. My own suggestion is that the links be placed in alphabetical order and it was with this in mind that I made my edit. It was never my intention to "make work". I should point out that there was no "removed link".
As it is there appears to be no rhyme or reason concerning the overall order. What is described as the "order of importance" places The Holocaust twelfth of thirteen!
I think listing "countries as per number of Righteous" is a bit odd, as if one deserves mention before another. And why is it that Croatians and Norwegians are listed as "Croatian Righteous" and "Norwegian Righteous", instead of Croatian Righteous Among the Nations and Norwegian Righteous Among the Nations? 99.242.171.73 ( talk) 19:30, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm glad we're communicating and am quite impressed with your analysis. This template is inspired of course by the article Righteous Among the Nations - with one of its main features being the large table listing the Righteous per their country of origin - with Poland appearing in the first line, Netherlands in the second, France in the third and so on. My intention was to hotlink the existing articles in the same order which I called the order of importance (table only). I was limited by the lack of many such articles as well. That's how I ended up listing Twentieth convoy instead of nonexistent Belgian Righteous Among the Nations and Glass House (Budapest) instead of nonexistent Hungarian Righteous Among the Nations. I wanted to mention at least the first countries listed in that table and admit that I was forced to make a few arbitrary decisions. There's no Danish Righteous Among the Nations article and no French Righteous Among the Nations so I couldn't list them here. You say, no "one deserves mention before another". That's an arbitrary thought. For example, there were two (2) Righteous in Brazil. If you believe that Brazil ought to be mentioned at the very top of that table in "alphabetical order", why don't you try to convince the community to reformat that table in that order? Or maybe, you'd prefer the table to be deleted since "listing 'countries as per number of Righteous' is a bit odd" according to your initial statement? I don't think so.
This is a very quick exchange of notes which resulted in some unfortunate foreshortenings. When I was referring to the order of importance I meant the number of Righteous, and not the hotlinks to Holocaust, Yad Vashem, Seven Laws of Noah and so on. I have no problem listing the Holocaust right under the main article if that is justified. Template:The Holocaust however is quite extensive already and in my opinion should only be supplemented with the Template:Righteous when needed. - Like true book editors, we need to make decisions here other than putting everything in alphabetical order. Nobody does it that way in the real world, so please, try to rearrange the links for me here in a way that makes sense to you, but other than alphabetically. -- Poeticbent talk 16:12, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
“In the real world”, when dealing with a collection of articles written around the same subject (i.e. the Righteous Among the Nations) editors decide how to arrange them for publishing, be it for a Home Page, a book of collected essays, an annual or a magazine, with the Table of Contents similar to any Wikipedia template (i.e. Template:Righteous). I'm asking, what kind of alphabetical, historical, numerical or perhaps readibility order would be most user-friendly in such a case? Template:The Holocaust for example, is not arranged alphabetically and honestly I don't get the sense of a strong underlying logic in it either. Try to imagine yourself arranging mere twelve articles like a library catalogue, can you? I can't. Your example, the listing of Righteous "per Country & Ethnic Origin" from www1.yadvashem.org is convincing only because these are the figures not articles, and still, they are fitted with a disclosure. In fact the same portal offers a collection of active links to pages of interest under the title On-line Exhibitions and no “alphabetical order” is assumed. Perhaps, you would prefer to have this template preformatted with an automatic feature similar to that of the main article’s table, switching the titles in two different ways on demand? Maybe that would satisfy your sense of fairness? At this point however, a new request for an impartial comment would probably be a good idea. -- Poeticbent talk 02:09, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
I hope I can help you two with a third opinion. Sorry it took long ;)
My suggestion:
Example:
General
Groups and events (abc)
Monuments and memorials (abc)
Will monitor this page for any comments. Greetings, Species8473 ( talk) 06:02, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Righteous among the Nations |
Main article The Holocaust Rescuers assisting Jews Righteousness Seven Laws of Noah Yad Vashem |
Famous individuals |
---|
Selected topics |
Righteous by country |
Even though the Template:Righteous seems to be improving, the more I think about the coverage of the entire subject, the more doubts I have about the outcome. For example, our article the List of Righteous among the Nations by country is a collection of arbitrarily selected names out of 22,211 men and women [3] most of whom are absent from that list. The so called list is not a list but a sampler with whomever wants to add a new name to it without as much as a stub for verifiability. That’s not good enough and the list should be renamed accordingly. By the same token, even if the actual life stories of the rescuers are most captivating, the missing articles make any attempt at fair coverage impossible. We’re limited by what we have, which is a hodgepodge of articles already existing. When you say: "I don’t think that one nationality or ethnic group deserves mention over another," you depart from the fact that these are not Yad Vashem depositions, but our in-house resources.
Anyhow, I included my own proposal to the right which is a working copy reflective of my own sense of limitations, nonetheless, offering a selection of useful internal links. Please take a look, and feel free to change it if my proposal appeals to you at all. I replaced the link to Christian ethics with a more appropriate Righteousness. Cheers, Poeticbent talk 20:09, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Template:Righteous has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — Wiki11790 talk 05:26, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
There exists disagreement concerning the order of Righteous Among the Nations by country, the inclusion of Twentieth convoy in lieu of an article on the Belgian Righteous Among the Nations, and the absence of a link to Chinese Righteous Among the Nations. The discussion begins under "Order" and continues under "My proposal". 99.242.171.73 ( talk) 14:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)