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I removed minor publications from this list of "major" newspapers. If the Protestant Telegraph really must be included, then throw in the Irish Catholic for good measure.
I would go further and propose that only those newspapers currently in print be included in this template. An additional template Template:Defunct Irish national newspapers could cover the rest. -- Damac 15:43, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
No on both counts. Firstly the Protestant Telegraph was not akin to the Irish Catholic. It was, or purported to be, a national Newspaper. The IC has never claimed to be that. Secondly the story of Irish newspapers involving going between modern papers with old origins to papers that existed within their timespan but no longer do. You cannot discuss the Sunday Tribune without discussing the Daily News, the Evening Herald without discussing the Evening Mail, the Irish Independent without discussing the Freeman's Journal, which in turn means the Nation has to be discussed. So breaking them up into separate templates would be pointless. FearÉIREANN 15:58, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
It isn't. The Evening Telegraph was, as is linked in the text of articles if you had bothered to check. But then people know the history of publishing newspapers in Ireland know well about the Evening Telegraph. Calling it Daily was a typo. Ever heard of fixing typos?
Of course the PT doesn't host its own website. It shut down long ago. (BTW contrary to your edit elsewhere the Irish Catholic is not a broadsheet. It is a tabloid.) And you simply cannot work through the history of Irish newspapers if the template leaves out a big chunk of those that existed. No newspaper exists in isolation. It has to be considered in the context of those other papers in existence during its lifetime. You cannot cover the Freeman's Journal without the impact of the United Irishman, the Evening Telegraph, the Evening Herald and the Daily Irish Independent/Irish Independent and others. The whole point of the template is to enable people to look at the range of titles that have existed over the last 200 years, pick up a thread and through linking articles follow the storyline. That cannot' be done if you decide that the template only covers papers in existence in 2005!!! Nor is there a clear category for defunct newspapers. The Irish Press, for example, is not defunct: it still exists, just isn't being printed. The same is true of the Sunday Press and the Evening Press. Indeed there are periodic plans to relaunch the Sunday Press but they fall through because journalists refuse ever to work again for the incompetent de Valera/Jennings buffoons who sunk the group (plus those sons of bitches still owe us all money, yet cream in money for their company from property investments while not paying people the publishing side of the business still owe money to.) The Freeman's Journal still exists as part of the Irish Independent (The Indo carried "incorporarating the Freeman's Journal" on its editorial page until 10 years ago.) Should we have 3 templates: papers in 2005, papers no longer printing but still officially in existence, defunct papers? In fact in that case we should have 4 templates: papers in 2005, papers no longer printing but still officially in existence, defunct papers, papers merged but still technically existing. That would be crazy. All that is needed is one template. Your argument is illogical. FearÉIREANN 16:49, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I better declare an interest too. I used to write for it under a pseudonym. It officially calls itself a newspaper but never ever regards itself as such. It has none of the structures of a newspaper, no specialist correspondents, no factual news agenda, rarely if ever uses newswires, etc etc. I don't think it even has an NUJ chapel, which newspapers invariably do. Any objective analysis of content, distribution, structure, news agenda, work rotas and staffing, pretty much blows the idea that it is a newspaper out of the water. Ireland probably could do with a Catholic newspaper, but about the only thing the IC has in common with a newspaper is the fact that it has newsprint and is tabloid-ish size.
The problem is that as the Irish media got more resources, the IC stayed stuck in a rut. It is little different than it always was, unlike mainstream newspapers (and even specialist ones) who have far superior design, more staff, broader content, full national distribution network, NNI JMRC surveys, advertising, etc. I rarely see it these days, but when I do it is usually followed by a sick feeling, not in terms of its agenda — though I disagree with some of that — but in terms of its chronic failure to move out of the realm of extended parish bulletin for the country and actually explore Catholic issues. But as its history shows, if the paper doesn't produce produce endless supplements on Our Lady of Somewhere-or-other, endless nice articles on the Rosary through the ages, piles of articles asking why is the world so nasty to Catholics, and instead tries to move the publication into the realms of even slight news coverage (as happened some years ago) the largely elderly readership goes beserck (or rather given their age, slightly annoyed and write to the local priest) and so the "Knit a Sock for Jesus:Knitting Patterns from Nazereth", "101 easy prayers to say when you lose your mobile phone", or "God's Feed: How to produce a 10 course meal from 10 loaves and 2 fishes" get priority over anything remotely qualifying as newspaper standard coverage on any issue. And because it only writes what its small number of readers want to read, and daren't deviate, it means that there is no serious credible Catholic publication to appeal to anyone else, other than the largely sixty-year old grannies who read "The Catholic" alongside "The Messenger" while using Vicks Vaporub.
Having written for it and having written through the media (and well as researching the Irish media for academic reasons) the IC ain't remotely a paper. It is a small, inward-looking periodical, with an elderly readership, little resources, no wire reliance, no correspondents, little coverage of contemporary issues outside the Church.
Anyone who has used Quark Xpress would be able to design as good a layout (in fact probably a whole lot better) in a couple of hours. I know I edited a 48 page newspaper once on a mac. The whole paper was done by 5 people over 9 days, and that involved design, layout, graphics, and the writing! That student magazine had as large a print run as the IC while an advertorial I designed for a politician had a print run for 2.5 times the IC and was distributed over a euro-constituency. And id did cover issues (in so far as an advertorial can, but still better than the IC does). So it would have to be described as a newspaper given its distribution, size, print run and the fact that it said it was on its masthead, if the IC, with a smaller print run, smaller distribution and less news stories, was to be called a newspaper. University magazines like the University Observer would also qualify. It is far closer in content, layout, structure, etc to the standard newspaper than the IC ever is. Put simply, the Irish Catholic is a rather poor periodical, not by any stretch of the imagination a newspaper. It can call itself what it wants, but an objective analysis of content, analysis, staffing, structure, distribution, attention to news values, etc shows that it is miles away from the basic definition of what is a newspaper. FearÉIREANN 19:08, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
The template is a work in progress. I've physically separated the current and defunct papers to two different sections of the template. It allows the old and new papers to be linked, which IMHO is vital. Religious publications have their own template. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 22:13, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Ireland Template‑class | |||||||
|
Newspapers Template‑class | |||||||
|
I removed minor publications from this list of "major" newspapers. If the Protestant Telegraph really must be included, then throw in the Irish Catholic for good measure.
I would go further and propose that only those newspapers currently in print be included in this template. An additional template Template:Defunct Irish national newspapers could cover the rest. -- Damac 15:43, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
No on both counts. Firstly the Protestant Telegraph was not akin to the Irish Catholic. It was, or purported to be, a national Newspaper. The IC has never claimed to be that. Secondly the story of Irish newspapers involving going between modern papers with old origins to papers that existed within their timespan but no longer do. You cannot discuss the Sunday Tribune without discussing the Daily News, the Evening Herald without discussing the Evening Mail, the Irish Independent without discussing the Freeman's Journal, which in turn means the Nation has to be discussed. So breaking them up into separate templates would be pointless. FearÉIREANN 15:58, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
It isn't. The Evening Telegraph was, as is linked in the text of articles if you had bothered to check. But then people know the history of publishing newspapers in Ireland know well about the Evening Telegraph. Calling it Daily was a typo. Ever heard of fixing typos?
Of course the PT doesn't host its own website. It shut down long ago. (BTW contrary to your edit elsewhere the Irish Catholic is not a broadsheet. It is a tabloid.) And you simply cannot work through the history of Irish newspapers if the template leaves out a big chunk of those that existed. No newspaper exists in isolation. It has to be considered in the context of those other papers in existence during its lifetime. You cannot cover the Freeman's Journal without the impact of the United Irishman, the Evening Telegraph, the Evening Herald and the Daily Irish Independent/Irish Independent and others. The whole point of the template is to enable people to look at the range of titles that have existed over the last 200 years, pick up a thread and through linking articles follow the storyline. That cannot' be done if you decide that the template only covers papers in existence in 2005!!! Nor is there a clear category for defunct newspapers. The Irish Press, for example, is not defunct: it still exists, just isn't being printed. The same is true of the Sunday Press and the Evening Press. Indeed there are periodic plans to relaunch the Sunday Press but they fall through because journalists refuse ever to work again for the incompetent de Valera/Jennings buffoons who sunk the group (plus those sons of bitches still owe us all money, yet cream in money for their company from property investments while not paying people the publishing side of the business still owe money to.) The Freeman's Journal still exists as part of the Irish Independent (The Indo carried "incorporarating the Freeman's Journal" on its editorial page until 10 years ago.) Should we have 3 templates: papers in 2005, papers no longer printing but still officially in existence, defunct papers? In fact in that case we should have 4 templates: papers in 2005, papers no longer printing but still officially in existence, defunct papers, papers merged but still technically existing. That would be crazy. All that is needed is one template. Your argument is illogical. FearÉIREANN 16:49, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I better declare an interest too. I used to write for it under a pseudonym. It officially calls itself a newspaper but never ever regards itself as such. It has none of the structures of a newspaper, no specialist correspondents, no factual news agenda, rarely if ever uses newswires, etc etc. I don't think it even has an NUJ chapel, which newspapers invariably do. Any objective analysis of content, distribution, structure, news agenda, work rotas and staffing, pretty much blows the idea that it is a newspaper out of the water. Ireland probably could do with a Catholic newspaper, but about the only thing the IC has in common with a newspaper is the fact that it has newsprint and is tabloid-ish size.
The problem is that as the Irish media got more resources, the IC stayed stuck in a rut. It is little different than it always was, unlike mainstream newspapers (and even specialist ones) who have far superior design, more staff, broader content, full national distribution network, NNI JMRC surveys, advertising, etc. I rarely see it these days, but when I do it is usually followed by a sick feeling, not in terms of its agenda — though I disagree with some of that — but in terms of its chronic failure to move out of the realm of extended parish bulletin for the country and actually explore Catholic issues. But as its history shows, if the paper doesn't produce produce endless supplements on Our Lady of Somewhere-or-other, endless nice articles on the Rosary through the ages, piles of articles asking why is the world so nasty to Catholics, and instead tries to move the publication into the realms of even slight news coverage (as happened some years ago) the largely elderly readership goes beserck (or rather given their age, slightly annoyed and write to the local priest) and so the "Knit a Sock for Jesus:Knitting Patterns from Nazereth", "101 easy prayers to say when you lose your mobile phone", or "God's Feed: How to produce a 10 course meal from 10 loaves and 2 fishes" get priority over anything remotely qualifying as newspaper standard coverage on any issue. And because it only writes what its small number of readers want to read, and daren't deviate, it means that there is no serious credible Catholic publication to appeal to anyone else, other than the largely sixty-year old grannies who read "The Catholic" alongside "The Messenger" while using Vicks Vaporub.
Having written for it and having written through the media (and well as researching the Irish media for academic reasons) the IC ain't remotely a paper. It is a small, inward-looking periodical, with an elderly readership, little resources, no wire reliance, no correspondents, little coverage of contemporary issues outside the Church.
Anyone who has used Quark Xpress would be able to design as good a layout (in fact probably a whole lot better) in a couple of hours. I know I edited a 48 page newspaper once on a mac. The whole paper was done by 5 people over 9 days, and that involved design, layout, graphics, and the writing! That student magazine had as large a print run as the IC while an advertorial I designed for a politician had a print run for 2.5 times the IC and was distributed over a euro-constituency. And id did cover issues (in so far as an advertorial can, but still better than the IC does). So it would have to be described as a newspaper given its distribution, size, print run and the fact that it said it was on its masthead, if the IC, with a smaller print run, smaller distribution and less news stories, was to be called a newspaper. University magazines like the University Observer would also qualify. It is far closer in content, layout, structure, etc to the standard newspaper than the IC ever is. Put simply, the Irish Catholic is a rather poor periodical, not by any stretch of the imagination a newspaper. It can call itself what it wants, but an objective analysis of content, analysis, staffing, structure, distribution, attention to news values, etc shows that it is miles away from the basic definition of what is a newspaper. FearÉIREANN 19:08, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
The template is a work in progress. I've physically separated the current and defunct papers to two different sections of the template. It allows the old and new papers to be linked, which IMHO is vital. Religious publications have their own template. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 22:13, 7 December 2005 (UTC)