This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Messianic Judaism template. |
|
Christianity: Jewish Template‑class | ||||||||||
|
In yet another grand effort to achieve consensus, instead of POV pushing (on either the Jewish or Messianic Jewish side) I wish to discuss the primary goal of this template. To do so, a need must be demonstrated for its existence, and such needs are as follows:
Clearly because of the vicious POV attacks on the last template, I would ask that all contributors to this template source their contributions and/or objections. This is a template folks, not an article; so there is and should be some leniency in this template's development, but some seem to think otherwise. A template is a tool, not an article. Unsubstantiated and unsourced charges of POV pushing over a "tool" that aims to be NPOV about a certain POV, will do this template no good.
This template is to be designed as a religious navigation template, similar to other religious navigation templates.
The content of navigable material in this template, was in dispute in two prior TfDs. One was keep, the other was delete. Neither side could achieve consensus on the content. It is the desire of this talk page to move with consensus, and not force another WP:NOT or WP:POV WP:TfD.
Furthermore, all contributors and objectors to this template agree that all future disputes about this template MUST be discussed here FIRST; and not in a future WP:TfD FIRST. A contributor who wishes to submit a WP:TfD will be reminded in any TfD regarding this template, that this dispute resolution notice is in place from the very beginning, and the admin reviewing any TfD of this template will be asked to consider whether or not the nominee has actually bothered to discuss their specific dispute here before bringing it up in a WP:TfD.
This is the development goal of this template. Suggestions would be appreciated. Please begin the discussion below this notice.
inigmatus 05:25, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Discuss here your reasons for your support of the current primary goals of this template. I currently believe that such a template would be useful, and at the very least would be necessary in all the points mentioned. Other religions have similar templates, see Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Mormonism. It is my desire to see a similar template designed as a navigation template for Messianic Judaism and related articles. inigmatus 05:27, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
1. A template to provide easy navigation between exclusive Messianic Judaism articles
I think there are no objections to this primary goal. Anyone else want to add something about this goal here? inigmatus 15:01, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
2. A template to provide easy navigation from exclusive Messianic Judaism articles to subsections related to Messianic Judaism, on non exclusive Messianic Judaism articles
I think there are no objections to this primary goal. Anyone else want to add something about this goal here? inigmatus 15:01, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
3. A template to provide easy navigation from exclusive Messianic Judaism articles to non exclusive Messianic Judaism articles that would otherwise be redundant with an exclusive Messianic Judaism version of the same article
I think there are no objections to this primary goal. Anyone else want to add something about this goal here? inigmatus 15:01, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
4. A template to provide easy navigation from exclusive Messianic Judaism articles to non exclusive Messianic Judaism articles dealing with terms and concepts that a visitor to a Torah observant Messianic Jewish synagogue would encounter, for which either a separate subsection in such an article would be redundant with the rest of the article, or the article itself would be redundant with a separately created Messianic Judaism article or subsection.
I think there are no objections to this primary goal. Anyone else want to add something about this goal here? inigmatus 15:01, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
The previous template used code from Template:Judaism. It is my opinion that there is no reason not to do so again since much of its design already serves as one of the best religious templates on Wikipedia. A tool is a tool, not an article. Charges of tool "plagiarism," seem ridiculous in my opinion, since if it's useful, why not use a modification of it? The previous Messianic Judaism template has been archived for easy resurrection. If one thinks that the archived Messianic Judaism template looks too much like the Judaism template, does this pose a Wikipedia policy problem? What Wikipedia policy would be violated if such a design were used again? inigmatus 05:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Rules for submission:
Guidelines for discussion:
SUBMISSIONS
Post your submissions below here:
(see archived User talk:ChristTrekker/MJtemplate#Article List from previous TFD)
All Exclusively Messianic Judaism articles, categories, portals, lists *Accepted per consensus. See archived discussion here 1.
Torah *See current discussion here.
Tanakh *See current discussion here.
Talmud *Not accepted per consensus. See archived discussion here 1.
God Messianics use these very names of HaShem in their liturgy, speech, and other forms of communication. People visiting a Messianic synagogue would be exposed to these names, thus the reason for their inclusion in the template. The creation of an exclusively Messianic article like Names of God in Messianic Judaism would be 100% redunant with Names of God in Judaism. [1], [2]. inigmatus 15:11, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
This has been added by user:Ju98 5. It looks as a good starting point for the next one. It focuses on Messianic-Judaic specific topics in the religion template style.
I think it's reasonable to start with a Template like this, that sticks strictly to Messianic topics. However, if the Template starts filling up again with general Judaism links (the reason it was deleted in the first place), then it would immediately become a candidate for speedy deletion. Jayjg (talk) 16:13, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
The original is up top, the new one below. I've stripped it down to the bare essentials—that was one of the suggestions put forth during TfD debate. In the interests of just getting something in place I tossed some of my initial idea (see below) for now rather than waiting on others.
Personally, I feel that many of the Judaism and Christian topics certainly have a place in a MJ nav template. ( Tallit is certainly as relevant to Messianic Jews as to any other group of Jews.) However, it is also valid to say that since there is already a "primary" navigation for general Jewish subjects, a nav guide for a sub-area of Judaism ought to restrict itself to that sub-area, which makes complete sense if the sub-area is recognized by the parent. If it is not, then I think it is completely understandable that the sub-area's nav template be complete and self-contained.
So this is a compromise. The idea (put forth before the last TfD) was that "common" topics remain on the MJ template, but hidden by default. Only topics unique to MJ would be always-visible. Since the technology isn't quite "there" yet, I've pushed off that design for future improvement, though the stubs for it remain. The problem was that I'd like to see the links as a continuous list whether or not the section is expanded, but since the code relies on blocks, each section has (potentially) two lists. I don't think that looks very good. First point, what do you think of that approach? Second point, if the line break doesn't matter to y'all should I add the hidden sections back in (and just fix it up if/when the tech improves)?
I had been thinking that we'd do all pre-discussion there (since it's already been mentioned in various placed, I assumed most interested parties knew of its existence) because when it's ready to go live, the move from user to template space will wipe out this talk page. But maybe that's OK? ⇔ ChristTrekker 18:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
For the sake of continuity, I will post the first code that you've shown here. If I made a mistake, feel free to modify the code to fit your suggestion so we can at least have something. inigmatus 21:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Any further comment? Seems like Inigmatus decided to go with Ju98 5's template without discussing the merits of one design over the other. ⇔ ChristTrekker 19:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I prefer Ju98 5's template currenty, as it contains articles that are MJ-specific. -- Avi 19:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
If this version is used, note that there's currently some stuff enclosed in a nowiki block while it's in my userspace. ⇔ ChristTrekker 22:38, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
This template is an absolute insult. Tell me here if anyone knows, what was the problem with the previous template? All of the links were relevant. Because this one is total garbage. Noogster 22:48, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I guess they want more sources to include such links on a navigation template. So, post in the subsection above, and source away. I'd feel better if individual item listings were discussed and debated, rather than baby-with-the-bathwater blanket TfD nominations. This tempalte is a navigation TOOL not a POV pusher or censor, and I want both sides to realize this. inigmatus 17:12, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I believe the currrent code needs cleaning up. I don't think we need show/hide sections for the template. I believe they are a distraction and even borders on censorship to a point - as if we're trying to hide links that others might be offended at seeing. The most important reason I think the code for show/hide needs to be deleted is that on some browsers the code messes up the presentation of the template badly - like overwriting the template category headings to make them unreadable. inigmatus 18:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
This template adds Category:Messianic Judaism to the articles it's included on, which is a nice convenience. However, many MJ articles begin with "messianic", to the point that it's unhelpful to read an alphabetical list when one gets to the Ms. I plan on adding an optional "sort" parameter to fix this. ⇔ ChristTrekker 17:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the stuff that was the whole source of the TFD in the first place. This template is about stuff uniquely related to Messianic Judaism, not stuff already on the Judaism and Christianity templates. Jayjg (talk) 20:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Please do not add a link to a WikiProject. This is a self reference and should not be in the template as per WP:ASR and my previous comments on this matter at Template talk:Messianic Judaism/Exclusive MJ. mattbr30 20:26, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Oh for crying out loud... Y'all have gone and gotten the template locked? This situation is clearly not going to improve. How do we go about requesting some kind of high-level arbitration or whatever-you-call-it? The only way I see this being resolved right now is if some neutral third party can come in with some authority and knock some heads around, and hands down an official statement of WP policies as applied to this topic. It's not just this template, it's the whole relationship between two RL communities bleeding over into blatant in-WP POV warring. I'd hoped that an understanding could be reached, but part of me knew that was overly optimistic. ⇔ ChristTrekker 15:30, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
The current iteration of the template is enormously better than when I last saw it (during a deletion debate). Well done to all concerned. -- Dweller 15:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
To answer your question, it's no longer likely to be mistaken for the Judaism template, which was the problem many people were bothered by at the TfD. -- Dweller 23:52, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
This template is protected, and should be tagged with {{ protected template}}, or another suitable protection template. Thanks – Qxz 20:12, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Last I recall, there was remained a disagreement about Talmud, especially in light of the fact that a number of Messianic sources discussed the "dangers" of the Talmud and Rabbinic Judaism. -- Avi 18:22, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
What do you think about that? If you want to find links to absolutely everything that is relevant to the MJ worldview, you visit the portal. The template would contain only those articles that are within the purview of the Project, the ones that are specific to MJ. Would this be a solution satisfactory to all parties? ⇔ ChristTrekker 15:35, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Sounds ok with me.-- Kirby♥ time 05:18, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
The goal sounds laudable, if and only if a portal was created. However, like most grand solutions to the Messianic vs Anti-Messianic disputes, most of us don't have time to create or update a portal. There are just too few Messianic and Messianic-supporting editors to keep such a project running while also maintaining hard-fought "territory" that would be censored by the sheer number and weight of Anti-Messianic popular opinion, rather than by anything substantial. There are only so many pages that two regular Messianic editors can only conceivably support and maintain without getting their stuff deleted all over the place by zealous anti-Messianics. I can't even seem to devote time to a arbitration request because I'm having to spend what little time I do have in arguing over semantics, rules, and regulations, with those who have the time to engage me there, where others assisting them have the time to delete, edit, modify, remove, and otherwise engage in "minor" content censorship that eventually changes the entire NPOV of some important articles. The battle to keep content from being censored against by popular opinion vs hard evidence refuting such content, is overwhelming - for no matter who says that Wikipedia isn't a battleground, it certainly is in the minds of those who have a stated and documented desire to see all things Messianic disappear from Wikipedia. So until the Messianic editor team gets more volunteers willing to step up to the plate and protect what currently exists; I don't think a portal is going to happen anytime soon. But then again, I think a portal would be a great idea - and perhaps the Messianic team should consider "retreating" to just maintaining a portal for now, that is...until someone decides to one day post a threat of a 3RR violation over a semantical issue over its own discussion page! That's when participating in Wikipedia as a Messianic editor becomes sheer madness at that point, and those in WikiProject Judaism start congratulating each other for having the "Messianic threat reduced". inigmatus 15:42, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
There was another attempt here to hijack Jewish symbols and replace the current one with Magen David. Please don't do it again. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 10:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I think that there's a definite problem with the so called "Messianic Seal" that is currently used to symbolize Messianic Judaism in this Template. There is no legitimate archaeological evidence for its authenticity. This seal is not used by any major Jewish Messianic organizations: MJAA ( http://www.mjaa.org) doesn't use it, British Messianic Jewish Alliance ( http://www.bmja.net) doesn't use it, neither does Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations ( http://www.umjc.net/) or Intentional Messianic Jewish Alliance ( http://www.imja.com). In fact, the few places one can find it are usually cheap jewelry web sites or on Ephraimite Movement websites (Gentile movement that claims to be the lost "and found" tribes of Israel!). I propose using Magen David as a symbol for Messianic Judaism as it is the symbol used by most Messianic Jewish organizations. There are some Rabbinical Judaism users on Wikipedia which try to impose on Messianic Judaism which symbols it can and cannot use. It's tantamount to religious intolerance. I propose leaving it to proponents of Messianic Judaism to define its symbols.
Illegitimate symbol:
Confusing and deceptive? I must respectfully disagree. That's YOUR personal (and emotional) opinion, and nothing to do with the facts. It's not for you to judge whether Messianic Judaism should be considered part of Judaism. Orthodox Jews do not consider Reform or Humanistic (atheistic) Judaism legitimate (or any other "ism" other than their own, for that matter), not even consider their converts as Jews. But you don't have a problem with either using Magen David. Messianic Jews are Jews (ethnically, culturally and they believe also religiously) and they consider Jewish symbols such as the Magen David as their very own - they don't use crosses, fishes, or anything else. You know full well that Messianic Jewish movement uses Magen David and/or Menorah as its symbols, and I gave you a list of major MJ websites for your reference. This is not my original research or idea, as you tried to insinuate by pointing me to WP:OR, but Messianic Judaism's JEWISH symbols.If you are not sure of that fact, see the photo of the Messianic synagogue ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Messianic_synagogue.jpg) on the Messianic Judaism page itself! Is that photo ALSO confusing and deceptive to you? I am not trying to convince you, just pointing to others on Wikipedia your proactive personal bias towards Messianic Judaism. Using words like "hijack Jewish symbols" - are you not speaking emotionally, from personal bias? I think it's a problem, especially since you seem to set yourself up as some kind of authority on this website. Kakdela2118
Humus, go pick on another topic in Messianic Judaism. The Seal is not in dispute. I posted tons of sources, and even my own Messianic congregation uses the symbol - as well as others in the Denver area. http://iacmusic.com/symbolspage.html If you want pictures of the symbol's use, I'll be happy to provide. inigmatus 17:40, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't this category's name be changed like the others? -- Lonnyron ( talk) 08:22, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Messianic Judaism template. |
|
Christianity: Jewish Template‑class | ||||||||||
|
In yet another grand effort to achieve consensus, instead of POV pushing (on either the Jewish or Messianic Jewish side) I wish to discuss the primary goal of this template. To do so, a need must be demonstrated for its existence, and such needs are as follows:
Clearly because of the vicious POV attacks on the last template, I would ask that all contributors to this template source their contributions and/or objections. This is a template folks, not an article; so there is and should be some leniency in this template's development, but some seem to think otherwise. A template is a tool, not an article. Unsubstantiated and unsourced charges of POV pushing over a "tool" that aims to be NPOV about a certain POV, will do this template no good.
This template is to be designed as a religious navigation template, similar to other religious navigation templates.
The content of navigable material in this template, was in dispute in two prior TfDs. One was keep, the other was delete. Neither side could achieve consensus on the content. It is the desire of this talk page to move with consensus, and not force another WP:NOT or WP:POV WP:TfD.
Furthermore, all contributors and objectors to this template agree that all future disputes about this template MUST be discussed here FIRST; and not in a future WP:TfD FIRST. A contributor who wishes to submit a WP:TfD will be reminded in any TfD regarding this template, that this dispute resolution notice is in place from the very beginning, and the admin reviewing any TfD of this template will be asked to consider whether or not the nominee has actually bothered to discuss their specific dispute here before bringing it up in a WP:TfD.
This is the development goal of this template. Suggestions would be appreciated. Please begin the discussion below this notice.
inigmatus 05:25, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Discuss here your reasons for your support of the current primary goals of this template. I currently believe that such a template would be useful, and at the very least would be necessary in all the points mentioned. Other religions have similar templates, see Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Mormonism. It is my desire to see a similar template designed as a navigation template for Messianic Judaism and related articles. inigmatus 05:27, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
1. A template to provide easy navigation between exclusive Messianic Judaism articles
I think there are no objections to this primary goal. Anyone else want to add something about this goal here? inigmatus 15:01, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
2. A template to provide easy navigation from exclusive Messianic Judaism articles to subsections related to Messianic Judaism, on non exclusive Messianic Judaism articles
I think there are no objections to this primary goal. Anyone else want to add something about this goal here? inigmatus 15:01, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
3. A template to provide easy navigation from exclusive Messianic Judaism articles to non exclusive Messianic Judaism articles that would otherwise be redundant with an exclusive Messianic Judaism version of the same article
I think there are no objections to this primary goal. Anyone else want to add something about this goal here? inigmatus 15:01, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
4. A template to provide easy navigation from exclusive Messianic Judaism articles to non exclusive Messianic Judaism articles dealing with terms and concepts that a visitor to a Torah observant Messianic Jewish synagogue would encounter, for which either a separate subsection in such an article would be redundant with the rest of the article, or the article itself would be redundant with a separately created Messianic Judaism article or subsection.
I think there are no objections to this primary goal. Anyone else want to add something about this goal here? inigmatus 15:01, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
The previous template used code from Template:Judaism. It is my opinion that there is no reason not to do so again since much of its design already serves as one of the best religious templates on Wikipedia. A tool is a tool, not an article. Charges of tool "plagiarism," seem ridiculous in my opinion, since if it's useful, why not use a modification of it? The previous Messianic Judaism template has been archived for easy resurrection. If one thinks that the archived Messianic Judaism template looks too much like the Judaism template, does this pose a Wikipedia policy problem? What Wikipedia policy would be violated if such a design were used again? inigmatus 05:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Rules for submission:
Guidelines for discussion:
SUBMISSIONS
Post your submissions below here:
(see archived User talk:ChristTrekker/MJtemplate#Article List from previous TFD)
All Exclusively Messianic Judaism articles, categories, portals, lists *Accepted per consensus. See archived discussion here 1.
Torah *See current discussion here.
Tanakh *See current discussion here.
Talmud *Not accepted per consensus. See archived discussion here 1.
God Messianics use these very names of HaShem in their liturgy, speech, and other forms of communication. People visiting a Messianic synagogue would be exposed to these names, thus the reason for their inclusion in the template. The creation of an exclusively Messianic article like Names of God in Messianic Judaism would be 100% redunant with Names of God in Judaism. [1], [2]. inigmatus 15:11, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
This has been added by user:Ju98 5. It looks as a good starting point for the next one. It focuses on Messianic-Judaic specific topics in the religion template style.
I think it's reasonable to start with a Template like this, that sticks strictly to Messianic topics. However, if the Template starts filling up again with general Judaism links (the reason it was deleted in the first place), then it would immediately become a candidate for speedy deletion. Jayjg (talk) 16:13, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
The original is up top, the new one below. I've stripped it down to the bare essentials—that was one of the suggestions put forth during TfD debate. In the interests of just getting something in place I tossed some of my initial idea (see below) for now rather than waiting on others.
Personally, I feel that many of the Judaism and Christian topics certainly have a place in a MJ nav template. ( Tallit is certainly as relevant to Messianic Jews as to any other group of Jews.) However, it is also valid to say that since there is already a "primary" navigation for general Jewish subjects, a nav guide for a sub-area of Judaism ought to restrict itself to that sub-area, which makes complete sense if the sub-area is recognized by the parent. If it is not, then I think it is completely understandable that the sub-area's nav template be complete and self-contained.
So this is a compromise. The idea (put forth before the last TfD) was that "common" topics remain on the MJ template, but hidden by default. Only topics unique to MJ would be always-visible. Since the technology isn't quite "there" yet, I've pushed off that design for future improvement, though the stubs for it remain. The problem was that I'd like to see the links as a continuous list whether or not the section is expanded, but since the code relies on blocks, each section has (potentially) two lists. I don't think that looks very good. First point, what do you think of that approach? Second point, if the line break doesn't matter to y'all should I add the hidden sections back in (and just fix it up if/when the tech improves)?
I had been thinking that we'd do all pre-discussion there (since it's already been mentioned in various placed, I assumed most interested parties knew of its existence) because when it's ready to go live, the move from user to template space will wipe out this talk page. But maybe that's OK? ⇔ ChristTrekker 18:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
For the sake of continuity, I will post the first code that you've shown here. If I made a mistake, feel free to modify the code to fit your suggestion so we can at least have something. inigmatus 21:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Any further comment? Seems like Inigmatus decided to go with Ju98 5's template without discussing the merits of one design over the other. ⇔ ChristTrekker 19:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I prefer Ju98 5's template currenty, as it contains articles that are MJ-specific. -- Avi 19:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
If this version is used, note that there's currently some stuff enclosed in a nowiki block while it's in my userspace. ⇔ ChristTrekker 22:38, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
This template is an absolute insult. Tell me here if anyone knows, what was the problem with the previous template? All of the links were relevant. Because this one is total garbage. Noogster 22:48, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I guess they want more sources to include such links on a navigation template. So, post in the subsection above, and source away. I'd feel better if individual item listings were discussed and debated, rather than baby-with-the-bathwater blanket TfD nominations. This tempalte is a navigation TOOL not a POV pusher or censor, and I want both sides to realize this. inigmatus 17:12, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I believe the currrent code needs cleaning up. I don't think we need show/hide sections for the template. I believe they are a distraction and even borders on censorship to a point - as if we're trying to hide links that others might be offended at seeing. The most important reason I think the code for show/hide needs to be deleted is that on some browsers the code messes up the presentation of the template badly - like overwriting the template category headings to make them unreadable. inigmatus 18:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
This template adds Category:Messianic Judaism to the articles it's included on, which is a nice convenience. However, many MJ articles begin with "messianic", to the point that it's unhelpful to read an alphabetical list when one gets to the Ms. I plan on adding an optional "sort" parameter to fix this. ⇔ ChristTrekker 17:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the stuff that was the whole source of the TFD in the first place. This template is about stuff uniquely related to Messianic Judaism, not stuff already on the Judaism and Christianity templates. Jayjg (talk) 20:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Please do not add a link to a WikiProject. This is a self reference and should not be in the template as per WP:ASR and my previous comments on this matter at Template talk:Messianic Judaism/Exclusive MJ. mattbr30 20:26, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Oh for crying out loud... Y'all have gone and gotten the template locked? This situation is clearly not going to improve. How do we go about requesting some kind of high-level arbitration or whatever-you-call-it? The only way I see this being resolved right now is if some neutral third party can come in with some authority and knock some heads around, and hands down an official statement of WP policies as applied to this topic. It's not just this template, it's the whole relationship between two RL communities bleeding over into blatant in-WP POV warring. I'd hoped that an understanding could be reached, but part of me knew that was overly optimistic. ⇔ ChristTrekker 15:30, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
The current iteration of the template is enormously better than when I last saw it (during a deletion debate). Well done to all concerned. -- Dweller 15:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
To answer your question, it's no longer likely to be mistaken for the Judaism template, which was the problem many people were bothered by at the TfD. -- Dweller 23:52, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
This template is protected, and should be tagged with {{ protected template}}, or another suitable protection template. Thanks – Qxz 20:12, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Last I recall, there was remained a disagreement about Talmud, especially in light of the fact that a number of Messianic sources discussed the "dangers" of the Talmud and Rabbinic Judaism. -- Avi 18:22, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
What do you think about that? If you want to find links to absolutely everything that is relevant to the MJ worldview, you visit the portal. The template would contain only those articles that are within the purview of the Project, the ones that are specific to MJ. Would this be a solution satisfactory to all parties? ⇔ ChristTrekker 15:35, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Sounds ok with me.-- Kirby♥ time 05:18, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
The goal sounds laudable, if and only if a portal was created. However, like most grand solutions to the Messianic vs Anti-Messianic disputes, most of us don't have time to create or update a portal. There are just too few Messianic and Messianic-supporting editors to keep such a project running while also maintaining hard-fought "territory" that would be censored by the sheer number and weight of Anti-Messianic popular opinion, rather than by anything substantial. There are only so many pages that two regular Messianic editors can only conceivably support and maintain without getting their stuff deleted all over the place by zealous anti-Messianics. I can't even seem to devote time to a arbitration request because I'm having to spend what little time I do have in arguing over semantics, rules, and regulations, with those who have the time to engage me there, where others assisting them have the time to delete, edit, modify, remove, and otherwise engage in "minor" content censorship that eventually changes the entire NPOV of some important articles. The battle to keep content from being censored against by popular opinion vs hard evidence refuting such content, is overwhelming - for no matter who says that Wikipedia isn't a battleground, it certainly is in the minds of those who have a stated and documented desire to see all things Messianic disappear from Wikipedia. So until the Messianic editor team gets more volunteers willing to step up to the plate and protect what currently exists; I don't think a portal is going to happen anytime soon. But then again, I think a portal would be a great idea - and perhaps the Messianic team should consider "retreating" to just maintaining a portal for now, that is...until someone decides to one day post a threat of a 3RR violation over a semantical issue over its own discussion page! That's when participating in Wikipedia as a Messianic editor becomes sheer madness at that point, and those in WikiProject Judaism start congratulating each other for having the "Messianic threat reduced". inigmatus 15:42, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
There was another attempt here to hijack Jewish symbols and replace the current one with Magen David. Please don't do it again. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 10:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I think that there's a definite problem with the so called "Messianic Seal" that is currently used to symbolize Messianic Judaism in this Template. There is no legitimate archaeological evidence for its authenticity. This seal is not used by any major Jewish Messianic organizations: MJAA ( http://www.mjaa.org) doesn't use it, British Messianic Jewish Alliance ( http://www.bmja.net) doesn't use it, neither does Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations ( http://www.umjc.net/) or Intentional Messianic Jewish Alliance ( http://www.imja.com). In fact, the few places one can find it are usually cheap jewelry web sites or on Ephraimite Movement websites (Gentile movement that claims to be the lost "and found" tribes of Israel!). I propose using Magen David as a symbol for Messianic Judaism as it is the symbol used by most Messianic Jewish organizations. There are some Rabbinical Judaism users on Wikipedia which try to impose on Messianic Judaism which symbols it can and cannot use. It's tantamount to religious intolerance. I propose leaving it to proponents of Messianic Judaism to define its symbols.
Illegitimate symbol:
Confusing and deceptive? I must respectfully disagree. That's YOUR personal (and emotional) opinion, and nothing to do with the facts. It's not for you to judge whether Messianic Judaism should be considered part of Judaism. Orthodox Jews do not consider Reform or Humanistic (atheistic) Judaism legitimate (or any other "ism" other than their own, for that matter), not even consider their converts as Jews. But you don't have a problem with either using Magen David. Messianic Jews are Jews (ethnically, culturally and they believe also religiously) and they consider Jewish symbols such as the Magen David as their very own - they don't use crosses, fishes, or anything else. You know full well that Messianic Jewish movement uses Magen David and/or Menorah as its symbols, and I gave you a list of major MJ websites for your reference. This is not my original research or idea, as you tried to insinuate by pointing me to WP:OR, but Messianic Judaism's JEWISH symbols.If you are not sure of that fact, see the photo of the Messianic synagogue ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Messianic_synagogue.jpg) on the Messianic Judaism page itself! Is that photo ALSO confusing and deceptive to you? I am not trying to convince you, just pointing to others on Wikipedia your proactive personal bias towards Messianic Judaism. Using words like "hijack Jewish symbols" - are you not speaking emotionally, from personal bias? I think it's a problem, especially since you seem to set yourself up as some kind of authority on this website. Kakdela2118
Humus, go pick on another topic in Messianic Judaism. The Seal is not in dispute. I posted tons of sources, and even my own Messianic congregation uses the symbol - as well as others in the Denver area. http://iacmusic.com/symbolspage.html If you want pictures of the symbol's use, I'll be happy to provide. inigmatus 17:40, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't this category's name be changed like the others? -- Lonnyron ( talk) 08:22, 3 November 2011 (UTC)