This template is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Men's Issues Template‑class | |||||||
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I've removed the links to Man, Boy, and Masculinity from this template per WP:NAVBOX criteria #1, 2, and 3. Placing these links directly underneath the link to Masculism implies that the latter is an umbrella topic covering all aspects of the former, which is clearly not the case. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 22:51, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Masculism which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 03:59, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Still no consensus after relisting. Deserves more discussion elsewhere, perhaps an RFC. ( non-admin closure) Dicklyon ( talk) 06:21, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
These templates may have been created to try and mirror {{ Feminism}} and {{ Feminism sidebar}}, but nothing suggests the topics are at all comparable, in my opinion. Several links do relate to the men's movement or men's rights movement, and a symbol used for the MRM was included on the {{ Masculinism}} template until quite recently.
I would suggest merging the general men-and-boys-related links to the newly created {{ Boys and men sidebar}}, and keeping only the men's-movement-related links here. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 04:17, 31 May 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 ( talk) 02:38, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
is the precise morphological equivalent of feminism" [1] as well an acknowledged ideological equivalent [2], is the broader topic area. I invite outside editors to look over all the additional evidence at Talk:Masculism#Scope changes. I myself withdrew a similar prior move request about this template (see Talk:Masculism#Requested move 13 May 2019) due to doing a deeper investigation of this topic. -- Netoholic @ 06:51, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
Questions about the utility/neutrality of these templates have already been raised at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Gender Studies#Feminism and Masculinism navigation templates. There is evidently a substantial difference in WP:WEIGHT of RS coverage between feminism and masculism, but I'll leave that discussion for the appropriate forum. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 09:35, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
That is only your opinion based on your POV interpretation of the terms.No, it's an assessment of how often the terms masculism/masculinism appear, cited to published RSes, in the listed articles, which is almost never. Nor is there anything at either Men's studies or Masculism to suggest the latter encompasses the former. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 19:25, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
Men Going Their Own Wayis just one of a bunch of listed articles that discuss either the "men's movement" or "men's rights movement". I'm not sure which appears more frequently in fact. What would people say to renaming these as {{ Men's rights movement}} and {{ Men's rights movement sidebar}} respectively? — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 22:11, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
The other problem I see is that masculinity itself, far from being a neutral term as you suggest, is something of a Rorschach test that invokes differing ideas about gender essentialism vs. the social construction of gender in men. That's a pretty fraught area, as evidenced by the popular discourse around the concept of "toxic masculinity". I fear that a {{ Masculinity}} template would just get mired in the same kind of conflict. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 01:45, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
Masculinity as a "societal construct" is mostly an academic concept; while that's fine for an encyclopedia article, a navbox that's going to appear on lots of articles should be labeled with something more quickly and easily understood. In any case, you'd have to propose moving or deleting the {{ Boys and men sidebar}} itself if you think the name is too broad. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 00:37, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
There is a request for comment at
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Gender studies#Navigation templates: masculism that relates to this template. Please join the discussion there. Thank you. —
Sangdeboeuf (
talk) 23:07, 29 February 2020 (UTC) updated 05:28, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
This template is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Gender studies NA‑class | ||||||||||||||
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Men's Issues Template‑class | |||||||
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I've removed the links to Man, Boy, and Masculinity from this template per WP:NAVBOX criteria #1, 2, and 3. Placing these links directly underneath the link to Masculism implies that the latter is an umbrella topic covering all aspects of the former, which is clearly not the case. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 22:51, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Masculism which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 03:59, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Still no consensus after relisting. Deserves more discussion elsewhere, perhaps an RFC. ( non-admin closure) Dicklyon ( talk) 06:21, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
These templates may have been created to try and mirror {{ Feminism}} and {{ Feminism sidebar}}, but nothing suggests the topics are at all comparable, in my opinion. Several links do relate to the men's movement or men's rights movement, and a symbol used for the MRM was included on the {{ Masculinism}} template until quite recently.
I would suggest merging the general men-and-boys-related links to the newly created {{ Boys and men sidebar}}, and keeping only the men's-movement-related links here. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 04:17, 31 May 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 ( talk) 02:38, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
is the precise morphological equivalent of feminism" [1] as well an acknowledged ideological equivalent [2], is the broader topic area. I invite outside editors to look over all the additional evidence at Talk:Masculism#Scope changes. I myself withdrew a similar prior move request about this template (see Talk:Masculism#Requested move 13 May 2019) due to doing a deeper investigation of this topic. -- Netoholic @ 06:51, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
Questions about the utility/neutrality of these templates have already been raised at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Gender Studies#Feminism and Masculinism navigation templates. There is evidently a substantial difference in WP:WEIGHT of RS coverage between feminism and masculism, but I'll leave that discussion for the appropriate forum. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 09:35, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
That is only your opinion based on your POV interpretation of the terms.No, it's an assessment of how often the terms masculism/masculinism appear, cited to published RSes, in the listed articles, which is almost never. Nor is there anything at either Men's studies or Masculism to suggest the latter encompasses the former. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 19:25, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
Men Going Their Own Wayis just one of a bunch of listed articles that discuss either the "men's movement" or "men's rights movement". I'm not sure which appears more frequently in fact. What would people say to renaming these as {{ Men's rights movement}} and {{ Men's rights movement sidebar}} respectively? — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 22:11, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
The other problem I see is that masculinity itself, far from being a neutral term as you suggest, is something of a Rorschach test that invokes differing ideas about gender essentialism vs. the social construction of gender in men. That's a pretty fraught area, as evidenced by the popular discourse around the concept of "toxic masculinity". I fear that a {{ Masculinity}} template would just get mired in the same kind of conflict. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 01:45, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
Masculinity as a "societal construct" is mostly an academic concept; while that's fine for an encyclopedia article, a navbox that's going to appear on lots of articles should be labeled with something more quickly and easily understood. In any case, you'd have to propose moving or deleting the {{ Boys and men sidebar}} itself if you think the name is too broad. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 00:37, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
There is a request for comment at
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Gender studies#Navigation templates: masculism that relates to this template. Please join the discussion there. Thank you. —
Sangdeboeuf (
talk) 23:07, 29 February 2020 (UTC) updated 05:28, 19 February 2024 (UTC)