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(discussion copied from User_talk:Gregbard)
Consensus in the math WikiProject is strongly against nav templates. I can't see any purpose for this one at all; there doesn't seem to be any content to it. Do you want to explain what you had in mind with it? -- Trovatore 04:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
That a wikipedia subculture should have an aversion to nav templates I find facinating. The wikipedia isn't just for the use of whatever subculture was fascinated enough to make the article. It's for people who are trying to learn. I would think that math pages would have a greater need for such a device...
Mathematics is a subset of logic, not the other way around. We have a math-centric wikipedia (rather than logic-centric) because there are more math people working on it. However, many of the overlapping articles would be better off if they were organized under logic primarily. I don't actually see this becoming the case, however.
Since this is the case, and since an encyclopedia should be organized around the concepts (with the category or subject as a lesser organizational priority) there should be an effort to include sections on the logical applications, and mathematical applications as well. There are some articles that have two or more pages for the same concept. I propose that many of them should be united. This would be a huge undertaking. I am concentrating mainly on the logical connectives. There is a project proposal on the matter. I invite your participation.
In the case of this nav template I have no objection to your re-organization. However, I think a link to set should be include somewhere. You tell me? Be well,
Gregbard 23:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
What should we include in the section titled Philosophy of logic? Pontiff Greg Bard ( talk) 22:49, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Fortunately, the wikipedia doesn't stand in justification to you alone. I'm not going to have any problem getting sources if it becomes a real priority. You don't think reasoning belongs in the template eh? Yeah, that's not going to fly. You still also seem to be harping on how these philosophies have been discredited. Guess what? I agree. They still were prevailing views on logic in their time. That is the standard. You've really missed the point. Be well, Pontiff Greg Bard ( talk) 20:39, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
1 2 -- this guy thinks mathematicians should be Platonists 3 Stanford E.P. 4 a book title Logic with Platonism another and Penelope Maddy, 'The Roots of Contemporary Platonism', Journal of Symbolic Logic, 54/4 (December 1989): 1121-1144
Pontiff Greg Bard ( talk) 21:03, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
If I understand correctly, the articles at issue are: Platonism, Scholasticism, Empiricism, Logical atomism, Logical positivism, Logicism, Formalism, Nominalism, Fictionalism, Realism, Intuitionism, Constructivism, and Finitism. The section itself, philosophy of logic, does not seem to be at issue. To be redundant, then, the question is which articles to include in the section. According to the Wikipedia article on philosophy of logic, and verified by the Routledge Encyclopedia's article on the same, the philosophy of logic regards those philosophical issues that arise within logic and about logic. That is, issues within modal logic (such as the debate over S5) and arguments about logic (such as how we can know/trust it or its structure) are part of the philosophy of logic (and in the later case, metalogic—which may in fact be a subset of the philosophy of logic). Whether something is an issue within or about logic will not always be clear, of course, but so long as both are appropriate this is not a substantive problem. Finally, as Wikipedia strives for a global view, rather than ethnocentrism, and the long historical view, rather than recentism, the issue is also not about which theories are correct (imagine an analogous situation in ethics: would we include realism or anti-realism? utilitarianism or deontology?), but rather which have been influential to philosophical movements.
With this understanding, two of the articles should become almost immediately uncontroversial. The first is Logicism, which positions logic as the foundation of mathematics and thus all a priori reasoning (see Russell and Whitehead, Principia Mathematica and A.D. Irvine's article on that book). The second is logical atomism, which is fundamental to Russell's early belief that the entire world could be described in purely logical terms. (Principia Mathematica is again relevant here, but see volume eight of Russell's collected papers, The Philosophy of Logical Atomism and Other Essays, his book Logic and Knowledge, and of course, his article "Analytic Realism." Russell was not the only logical atomist, however, so we should not ignore Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus. I am not familiar enough with Carnap to suggest something of his, but I suspect the given sources are sufficient.)
I am rather skeptical about including logical positivism in that it is an approach not to logic, but to philosophy. That is, while there is a philosophy of logic behind logical positivism, the movement is not defined by that philosophy. Rather, logical positivism is defined by the way it combines the competing principles of empiricism and rationalism, insisting on strictly phenomenalistic descriptions of the world. I have a similar problem with empiricism, which is really a position in epistemology.
Formalism is a more difficult case. Formalism is certainly relevant to logic, but the Wikipedia article does not even broach the topic. Indeed, the article's full name is Formalism (philosophy) and yet it is barely recognizable as a philosophy article. If we spruce it up with information from sources such as Schiller's Formal Logic (and his "Formalism in Logic," a response to Hoernlé's review of Schiller's book) then we might have an article worth including. But until then, it is more confusing to include the link than to delete it.
Platonism is another tricky one. Really what should be included is Platonic realism, as this where Plato's rationalism and his views on the a priori come out (as seen in The Republic and the Phaedo, which is about much more than the afterlife). The emphasis on universals in Platonic realism is opposed by nominalism, which again rests on an issue within logic—namely, how it should treat set theory (see Goodman's The Structure of Appearance but also Peter Abelard's Tractatus de intellectibus, which can be found in translation in Peter King's Peter Abailard and the Problem of Universals in the Twelfth Century). One might take Abelard's nominalism as a reason to then include Scholasticism, but this becomes a bit of stretch for me. Scholasticism is typically taken as period in the history of philosophy. And while its emphasis on dialectic (in the pre-Hegelian sense) might seem to make it about logic, I remain unconvinced.
Mercifully, this is all I have to say about the matter for now. Perhaps I will address fictionalism, realism, intuitionism, constructivism, and finitism at some other time, but I have at least given some framework within which others can consider these articles. Or, of course, they can come up with their own framework. If I may make one last suggestion, it is that we include some of the issues within logic (e.g. counterfactuals or vagueness) under philosophy of logic section, rather than insisting only on larger scale movements or positions. Postmodern Beatnik ( talk) 15:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Until today we had a link to formula (mathematical logic) and one to well-formed formula. The first was actually a redirect to the second, and it was removed (correctly) today by an anonymous user. I changed it to appear as formula, with the following edit summary:
In more detail:
Before this background I was a bit surprised to be reverted with an edit comment of "term wff well established". Is it OK if I revert back? -- Hans Adler ( talk) 15:34, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
Why is this here? Greg's been adding it, without an "explanation" which I consider credible. Any one else have a comment? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:27, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Should this template be organised like other philosophy templates?-- Vojvodae please be free to write :) 17:11, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Greg is restructuring the template in the guise of "following redirects", and insists that he's right, and I'm wrong. Per WP:BRD, he should stop. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:37, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
You can see as plainly as I can, that I made a number of changes at the same time. If you disagree with 1% of it and revert the whole thing on that basis, then you are not a good faith collaborator. I am perfectly willing to discuss any concerns you have AFTER the cleanup. That is just basic politeness Arthur. You are jumping to conclusions again, because of your disposition. Greg Bard 02:45, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
Two anonymous editors have edit the template with no clear explantion. I have reverted each edit.— Philogos ( talk) 17:54, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Philosophy: Logic Template‑class | |||||||||||||||||||
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Mathematics Template‑class | |||||||
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(discussion copied from User_talk:Gregbard)
Consensus in the math WikiProject is strongly against nav templates. I can't see any purpose for this one at all; there doesn't seem to be any content to it. Do you want to explain what you had in mind with it? -- Trovatore 04:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
That a wikipedia subculture should have an aversion to nav templates I find facinating. The wikipedia isn't just for the use of whatever subculture was fascinated enough to make the article. It's for people who are trying to learn. I would think that math pages would have a greater need for such a device...
Mathematics is a subset of logic, not the other way around. We have a math-centric wikipedia (rather than logic-centric) because there are more math people working on it. However, many of the overlapping articles would be better off if they were organized under logic primarily. I don't actually see this becoming the case, however.
Since this is the case, and since an encyclopedia should be organized around the concepts (with the category or subject as a lesser organizational priority) there should be an effort to include sections on the logical applications, and mathematical applications as well. There are some articles that have two or more pages for the same concept. I propose that many of them should be united. This would be a huge undertaking. I am concentrating mainly on the logical connectives. There is a project proposal on the matter. I invite your participation.
In the case of this nav template I have no objection to your re-organization. However, I think a link to set should be include somewhere. You tell me? Be well,
Gregbard 23:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
What should we include in the section titled Philosophy of logic? Pontiff Greg Bard ( talk) 22:49, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Fortunately, the wikipedia doesn't stand in justification to you alone. I'm not going to have any problem getting sources if it becomes a real priority. You don't think reasoning belongs in the template eh? Yeah, that's not going to fly. You still also seem to be harping on how these philosophies have been discredited. Guess what? I agree. They still were prevailing views on logic in their time. That is the standard. You've really missed the point. Be well, Pontiff Greg Bard ( talk) 20:39, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
1 2 -- this guy thinks mathematicians should be Platonists 3 Stanford E.P. 4 a book title Logic with Platonism another and Penelope Maddy, 'The Roots of Contemporary Platonism', Journal of Symbolic Logic, 54/4 (December 1989): 1121-1144
Pontiff Greg Bard ( talk) 21:03, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
If I understand correctly, the articles at issue are: Platonism, Scholasticism, Empiricism, Logical atomism, Logical positivism, Logicism, Formalism, Nominalism, Fictionalism, Realism, Intuitionism, Constructivism, and Finitism. The section itself, philosophy of logic, does not seem to be at issue. To be redundant, then, the question is which articles to include in the section. According to the Wikipedia article on philosophy of logic, and verified by the Routledge Encyclopedia's article on the same, the philosophy of logic regards those philosophical issues that arise within logic and about logic. That is, issues within modal logic (such as the debate over S5) and arguments about logic (such as how we can know/trust it or its structure) are part of the philosophy of logic (and in the later case, metalogic—which may in fact be a subset of the philosophy of logic). Whether something is an issue within or about logic will not always be clear, of course, but so long as both are appropriate this is not a substantive problem. Finally, as Wikipedia strives for a global view, rather than ethnocentrism, and the long historical view, rather than recentism, the issue is also not about which theories are correct (imagine an analogous situation in ethics: would we include realism or anti-realism? utilitarianism or deontology?), but rather which have been influential to philosophical movements.
With this understanding, two of the articles should become almost immediately uncontroversial. The first is Logicism, which positions logic as the foundation of mathematics and thus all a priori reasoning (see Russell and Whitehead, Principia Mathematica and A.D. Irvine's article on that book). The second is logical atomism, which is fundamental to Russell's early belief that the entire world could be described in purely logical terms. (Principia Mathematica is again relevant here, but see volume eight of Russell's collected papers, The Philosophy of Logical Atomism and Other Essays, his book Logic and Knowledge, and of course, his article "Analytic Realism." Russell was not the only logical atomist, however, so we should not ignore Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus. I am not familiar enough with Carnap to suggest something of his, but I suspect the given sources are sufficient.)
I am rather skeptical about including logical positivism in that it is an approach not to logic, but to philosophy. That is, while there is a philosophy of logic behind logical positivism, the movement is not defined by that philosophy. Rather, logical positivism is defined by the way it combines the competing principles of empiricism and rationalism, insisting on strictly phenomenalistic descriptions of the world. I have a similar problem with empiricism, which is really a position in epistemology.
Formalism is a more difficult case. Formalism is certainly relevant to logic, but the Wikipedia article does not even broach the topic. Indeed, the article's full name is Formalism (philosophy) and yet it is barely recognizable as a philosophy article. If we spruce it up with information from sources such as Schiller's Formal Logic (and his "Formalism in Logic," a response to Hoernlé's review of Schiller's book) then we might have an article worth including. But until then, it is more confusing to include the link than to delete it.
Platonism is another tricky one. Really what should be included is Platonic realism, as this where Plato's rationalism and his views on the a priori come out (as seen in The Republic and the Phaedo, which is about much more than the afterlife). The emphasis on universals in Platonic realism is opposed by nominalism, which again rests on an issue within logic—namely, how it should treat set theory (see Goodman's The Structure of Appearance but also Peter Abelard's Tractatus de intellectibus, which can be found in translation in Peter King's Peter Abailard and the Problem of Universals in the Twelfth Century). One might take Abelard's nominalism as a reason to then include Scholasticism, but this becomes a bit of stretch for me. Scholasticism is typically taken as period in the history of philosophy. And while its emphasis on dialectic (in the pre-Hegelian sense) might seem to make it about logic, I remain unconvinced.
Mercifully, this is all I have to say about the matter for now. Perhaps I will address fictionalism, realism, intuitionism, constructivism, and finitism at some other time, but I have at least given some framework within which others can consider these articles. Or, of course, they can come up with their own framework. If I may make one last suggestion, it is that we include some of the issues within logic (e.g. counterfactuals or vagueness) under philosophy of logic section, rather than insisting only on larger scale movements or positions. Postmodern Beatnik ( talk) 15:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Until today we had a link to formula (mathematical logic) and one to well-formed formula. The first was actually a redirect to the second, and it was removed (correctly) today by an anonymous user. I changed it to appear as formula, with the following edit summary:
In more detail:
Before this background I was a bit surprised to be reverted with an edit comment of "term wff well established". Is it OK if I revert back? -- Hans Adler ( talk) 15:34, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
Why is this here? Greg's been adding it, without an "explanation" which I consider credible. Any one else have a comment? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:27, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Should this template be organised like other philosophy templates?-- Vojvodae please be free to write :) 17:11, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Greg is restructuring the template in the guise of "following redirects", and insists that he's right, and I'm wrong. Per WP:BRD, he should stop. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:37, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
You can see as plainly as I can, that I made a number of changes at the same time. If you disagree with 1% of it and revert the whole thing on that basis, then you are not a good faith collaborator. I am perfectly willing to discuss any concerns you have AFTER the cleanup. That is just basic politeness Arthur. You are jumping to conclusions again, because of your disposition. Greg Bard 02:45, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
Two anonymous editors have edit the template with no clear explantion. I have reverted each edit.— Philogos ( talk) 17:54, 15 February 2011 (UTC)