This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Thank you, IZAK, for bringing this to my attention. What IZAK said is correct, we do have many templates for individual aspects of Judaism, but I believe that this would go nicely in articles which do not really fit into other templates. The template has a bit of (not really)POV problems (,but problems with the choice of links) , which will have to be discussed if it is kept. I don't believe that Ovadia Yosef merits inclusion in this template any more than the Vilna Gaon, for example. However, this template should only be used in places where no template like {{ Jews and Judaism sidebar}} or {{ JewishLifeCycle}} would be more direct. E=MC^2 T@lk 01:46, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
See Binary search tree for above...what next, the Evolutionary tree, or even better, the Tree of Knowledge? The plot thickens! IZAK 03:51, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Why are these templates some sort of mauve? Would dark blue for the headers, and alternating light blue and white for the lines, make more sense? Jayjg (talk) 14:19, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia! It is not a "scholars' convention", nor is it meant to do anything but be a free repository of information! Templates and categories are around to make life easier. We must think in the interests of the casual browser of the encyclopedia. The question that should be dealt with here, and only this question, is: "Is this template making it easier for people to access Judaism-related articles? How can we make it better?" E=MC^2 T@lk 18:06, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't want to stall the development of this particular template too much...but I'm thinking now, hoping that those following this development proposal are familiar with mathematical tree-diagrams, will be able to figure out what I'm proposing now...
This is a proposal to overhaul all the Jew/Jews/Judaism/Jewishness/J* templates. What I'm thinking is this:
Where each of these are the various templates. I would like to see the Jewish Holidays template (which is, contrary to what has been said here previously, far from exhaustive) and the Jewish Life Cycle template revamped, and possibly turned into {RIGHT} templates rather than {BOTTOM} ones. What I'm thinking is something along the lines of a hierarchy of these related templates, where, for example, the JEW template would have a section of "related article series" for languages, ethnicities, history, national-origin, & judaism; etc. Thoughts? I realize this is something of a rather extensive overhaul. Maybe we should shoot to be done with it by Shavuot? :-D Tomer TALK 23:03, May 2, 2005 (UTC)
(UTC)
IZAK 03:06, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
No. and you're funny, even when you're trying to be demeaning. look up binary search tree. Tomer TALK 03:28, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
The problem with defining Judaism as a "religion" like Christianity or Islam is that Jews are NOT just a religion, we are more like a tribal people, and there's a lot of overlap between "religion" and "culture." A tribe is sometimes anthropologically defined as a group that has these five criteria: (1) common land of origin, (2) common ancestors (mythical or real), (3) common language (or at least some common words used by everyone), (4) common religion or belief system, and (5) common customs revolving around holidays and foods. We Jews fit all 5 criteria. Also, we are matrilineal for membership in the tribe, but patrilineal as to membership in "clans" (kohen, levi, Yisroel). These are also common tribal customs, i.e., one must either be born into it or adopted into the tribe or clan, one cannot join just by believing in it as with other religions. (In the case of kohen or levi, it is entirely based on geneaology and one cannot be a kohen or levi except by birth.)
So nu, we are a people, and "religion" is only part of it. "Atheist Christian" or "Atheist Muslim" might be an oxymoron, but "atheist Jew" is not. I would therefore vote for including links to things like secular Zionism, humanistic Judaism, etc. – perhaps with an explanation somewhere about the tribal nature of being a Jew. At the very least, "Jew" SHOULD be linked!
One reason for including such links is that non-Jews tend to think of Jews only in terms of religion (as in "Catholic, Protestant, Jewish") and are genuinely puzzled by Jews who are not "religious" by their (gentile) definitions. And yet, they look under "Judaism" for answers to such questions because it never occurs to them to them to look for "secular Jew." Maybe this is already discussed somewhere on Wikipedia – if yes, then it should be linked to the template somewhere, I think.
Also, I think "Sandaq" should be cross-referenced with the spelling "Sandek" because that is the more common spelling in American Yinglish. Ditto for a lot of other Hebrew & Yiddish terms. The preferred academic spelling is not the way most Americans will spell the words when searching for them, and it's not how they are usually spelled in novels and other literature. We want to be helpful, not obscure. rooster613
Since User:TShilo12 seems to be tinkering with the template, I would like to state again, that I think the template looks to me like a fallen "bloated blimp waiting to explode" or a " misbegotten hippopotamus" of some sort...because honestly now, do we really intend to place this monstrosity on Judaism-related pages just because there are similar "templates" to it on Wikipedia? Even worse, the template is a mess! Here are some over-all observations worth noting:
So the above are some of my observations for now. Does anyone care to join in with the critique? IZAK 07:34, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Hey. Over at Template talk:Islam there has been some debate about adding criticism of Islam to the template. One of the arguments against it has been that criticism of Judaism (which unlike criticism of Islam and Christianity does not exist) is not on this template. On Islamic articles there has been a slight problem with editors trying to do things anti-Islam so some of the editors of the template feel it is a continuation. I typically tend to be middle of the line between the two camps and I think it should be added. However, I don't think it will stand if there is only criticism for Islam and not for Christianity, Judaism, Atheism, and the other major belief systems. So, I would encourage you to come to Template talk:Islam and participate in the discussion there and bring this to a more universal level. I am aware that the dynamics of this will be different since there is not a criticism page for Judaism but I'm sure in time will come. I'm not fully sure that the idea of an individual criticism page for a religion is encyclopedically sound... but, it is a reality and as long as its NPOV it should be fine. So, speculative thoughts would be welcome on the Islam template talk page so maybe there can be a concensus on this. Thanks. gren グレン 17:04, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
So what I'm thinking is:
obviously, some of this stuff should be pared out...
(sign your name please)
No kidding, all that is missing is the kosher " kitchen sink" IZAK 05:43, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I "edited" the above list/s so that we can all read them as they appear in their original articles, no need for "funny squeeglies" that no-one can read. This way everyone knows how the original articles appear on Wikipedia. IZAK 01:25, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
This bloated blimp on a page, it's not a "template", is like having the proverbial "bull in a China shop" – it's disgustingly bloated to the point of being obtuse and meaningless. There are many other fine, SMALLER templates that deal with the gamut of articles and topics pertaining to Judaism (as I previously mentioned above, see Duplication of other templates), but this blimp does nothing but blur the picture (literally and figuratively). So let's try to stick with Template:Jews and Judaism sidebar which is relatively neater and tries to avoid "dealing with the challenge of dealing with everything" – including the (kosher) kitchen sink. Thank you. IZAK 07:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
IT'S A B L I M P ... IZAK 07:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I am removing this from the template page: <noinclude>Template links are incompatible with this template. To elaborate, {{tl|Judaism}} will be merged into {{tl|Jews and Judaism sidebar}}, but the final product will sit at ''Judaism''. ''Jew'' will have famous Jews.</noinclude>
In addition, I edited the template so that it deals with, and only reflects, JUDAISM (cause, how on Earth do articles about kibbutzim etc fit in with "Judaism"?), so at least this version of the template will be referring to Judaism if it's used by some folks, and it has been used already. IZAK 10:22, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Any place to fit on the template a link to Messianic Judaism? I'll add it to the very bottom for now unless someone else wants to change it. inigmatus 16:47, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I believe the Judaism template is a good example of how a religion's template should be done. I would like to ask any impartial editors to also take a look at the Scientology template and make any suggestions for bringing it up to the same standards of fairness and encyclopedic impartiality as this one. Highfructosecornsyrup 18:20, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Can we also include the festival of Sigd and the role of the Kessim in their respective catagores? It would be best if we also expand those articles. Are we attempting to keep this general or include all the geographical streams?
Guy Montag 04:49, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Currently Rif links to an article on a region in Morocco, not an important figure in Judaism. Where is this meant to link? -- Steven J. Anderson 20:12, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
The 'important figures' are arranged in somewhat random order. Does anyone object if I rearrange them in date order?-- Redaktor 12:14, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm considering removing Shacharit, Mincha, Ma'ariv, Musaf and Neilah. They all redirect to Jewish services, which is already linked. A template should be a convenience for the reader to find useful and relevant articles, not a repetitive list of duplicative links. Comments? -- Steven J. Anderson 22:46, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Compared to other religions, this template is way too big. We should start working on shrinking it, getting some of the less important material out, and making it thinner.-- Sefringle 00:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Sefringle, it's what I was saying two years ago (see above discussions) when they started on expanding this blimp, it's about time it was cut by at least half or more! Imagine if Hillel would have said all this to the potential convert, instead of defining Judaism as "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn. ( Babylonian Talmud, tractate Shabbat 31a) IZAK 04:59, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
The three longest sections are: Jewish history, Jewish holidays, and Important figures. Many of these sections contain things barely relevant to Judaism. Such articles should be removed. Possibly even the entire Jewish holidays section, as there already is a Jewish holidays template, which contains most of the holidays on this template ({{ Jewish and Israeli holidays}}). Not to mention many are on the {{ Jews and Judaism sidebar}} template.-- Sefringle 20:07, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Are there any objections to the removial of the "Jewish Holidays" section from this template?-- Sefringle 23:29, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Jewish History The articles listed under Jewish History are very interesting, but tangential; there are other articles more directly relevant to Judaism which (for good reason) are not listed in the template. The template really does need a Jewish History section; let it stick to Judaism.-- Redaktor 16:26, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
There has been no opposition to this proposal for three weeks.-- Redaktor 22:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Important Figures The biggest section of the template is Important Figures. At the risk of stepping on some toes, I would like to propose (a) removing people who are important to one Jewish group but others (e.g., Hasidic rebbes, Vilna Gaon), (b) removing modern rabbis, and (c) pruning down the medieval rabbis. I'm not saying that these aren't important people, just that I think the template is over-loaded with important people and we have to make some choices. I'd be open to some alternative suggestions. – Malik Shabazz ( Talk | contribs) 22:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Going with the tree model I proposed long ago, I think this template should be pared down to its most basic possible level. For example, what Redaktor did above with the Jewish History section... I don't have time to address it right now, but please don't close the discussion in the next 2 days...I've got some ideas I'd like to have a fair shake before anything drastic is done, but I really need to be concentrating on work stuff until Thursday afternoon... Tom e r talk 03:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Why are some section headings blue and others black?-- Redaktor 22:22, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
From the Jews · Judaism · Denominations section I suggest the removal of all movements. Including dead sects like the Hasideans and Tzedukim. Otherwise rename it to movements and include movements like Zionism and remove denominations like Rabbinic. In which case it wont make it noteworthy for a Judaism template and should be removed all together.
I guess I'll start to fix it. 210.84.40.154 22:29, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
What do most of: Principles of faith · Minyan · Kabbalah Noahide laws · God · Eschatology · Messiah Chosenness · Holocaust · Halakha · Kashrut Modesty · Tzedakah · Ethics · Mussar have to do with Jewish philosophy. This section should be renamed or be change to include links to philosophical ideas. Or possibly even to some fundamental books like the Saadia Goan's Emunot v'Dayot 210.84.40.154 22:43, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
This section is completely on the Template:Jewish life. Any objections to the removial of this section? Yahel Guhan 10:34, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
An anonymous editor added links to various Christian topics such as the New Testament, Jesus Christ and Christ. These links were piped using the Messianic Jewish names for these things, such as "Brit Chadashah" and "Yahshua HaMashiach". My biggest concern was that the link to Jewish messiah was completely removed and replaced with Christ, which clearly is not appropriate when representing mainstream Judaism. I know that some people don't even consider Messianic Jews "Jewish", but I personally wouldn't mind at least a link to Messianic Judaism on this template. However, I believe decepitely blurring the lines between Judaism and Christianity by slipping in various Christian topical articles through piped Hebrew terms does not seem appropriate. I'd like to hear the anon's case for including this new content, and I would like to hear what others have to say about these changes. - Andrew c [talk] 14:41, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Any reason for this? Masterhomer 22:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I think the Menorah is better symbol for Judaism than the Star of David. It seems to be more universally recognized as Jewish. Also, the star of David has been used in other areas (such as the flag of modern Israel), thus not everyone considers it a symbol of Judaism. Bless sins ( talk) 19:53, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
The biggest section of the template, by far, is "Important figures". A few months ago, I proposed trimming that section and got little feedback. If nobody objects, I'll start removing important figures over the next week or so. – Malik Shabazz ( Talk | contribs) 02:15, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I think Judah the Prince is an incorrect translation of Hebrew Judah haNasi. 'haNasi' means 'the president', while 'haNasich' means 'the prince'. so it should be 'Judah the President', but should better be 'Judah haNasi', since president is interpreted differently in different cultures. Nevo taaseh ( talk) 15:15, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
It might be easier to just have a List of important figures in Judaism placeholder article and just point the template there? – Kendrick7 talk 19:43, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Template:Twelvers2 can become... Template:Twelvers
I also was wondering when we would be adding a fourth image. -- Enzuru 22:52, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
I think the Important Figures section is quite objective. I am hesitant to add more people to it as the template is long enough as it is. However, how do we decide who goes in there? It seems that all of the contemporary people or those from the past century could all be classified as "Orthodox". I'm afraid that if I add Conservative, Reform, or Reconstructionist important figures, these will get reverted. What criteria should we create for adding to the Important Figures section so that it doesn't become a monstrosity. Valley2city 22:11, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
This template is still pretty big. I'm thinking perhaps parts could be spun off to their own templates...specifically I'm thinking Template:History of Judaism (analogous to Template:History of France, etc.) would be a good place to start..and that Jewish history can remain as a link in this template as part of another section (probably one yet to be created, by collapsing several other sections into it)... Thoughts? Tom e r talk 20:36, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
As for the "bloat" thing...what I was referring to is that there are still several articles that are linked to more than once, from different places within the template... also, there's already a {{ JewishHolidays}}, so why are we taking up 4 lines in this template to list them all (or even half)? I see a similar thing has happened at {{ Jews and Judaism sidebar}}, where a dozen languages have found their way back into the template, completely ignoring the existence of {{ Jewish languages}}, and without any apparently consistent rationale. Tom e r talk 20:43, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
While I see the use of this template, it seems troublesome that it conflicts with template:Jews and Judaism sidebar. Perhaps a better idea would be to use {{Jews and Judaism sidebar}} combined with one of several mini-templates for specific topics, such as those in the various subsections- Jewish Philosophy, Jewish religious texts, Important Jewish figures, etc. -- Eliyak T· C 04:33, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
This template was "pretty big" several bloat iterations ago, and is now in or around "unspeakably sprawling". I'd personally favour the assemblage of mini-templates idea (perhaps in a meta-template, so as to keep the appearance as consistent as possible), but failing that the show/hide idea would at least be a step in the right direction. Alai 06:05, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Hello, it has been suggested on the Talk:Bible page (see Talk:Bible#Space) that this template and others be made collapsible, in order to improve article layout. I looked at the {{ Christianity}} template to see what was done there to make that possible. What do you think of modifying the {{ Judaism}} template to add this feature? Loves Macs (talk) 13:47, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be better to order the entries of each subsection of this template in alphabetical order? (e.g. Cheder, Kollel, Yeshiva) Debresser ( talk) 19:10, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
This template is, in my opinion, way too big and cumbersome. I think we need to narrow it down to the most critical and basic aspects of Judaism. In order to consolidate and cleanup the template, I have made a new proposed template. I made a lot of changes, and I did have a reasoning behind each one. Please let me know if there's a particular change that you'd like me to explain. Please comment. -shirulashem (talk) 15:49, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
A few small things: "denominatons" without capital. Where is Kollel? I think Beis Yaakov should be left out, because it is not a type but a brand name. It is (forgive me for being rude) like adding Heineken to "Lager beer, dark beer, non-alcohol beer". Debresser ( talk) 20:27, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
I do not think that "Beis Yaakov" today really carries much relationship to the original movement; it's now the canonic name for a frum girls school (Koh Somar L'Veis Ya'akov, V'Sagaid Livnei Yisrael...). -- Avi ( talk) 00:22, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
I propose to add a link Criticism of Judaism to the template at bottom. This would be balanced and neutral, and would be consistent with similar links in the following similar religion templates:
By what criteria have the current five (out of 613!) featured laws, (Kashrut · Tzniut · Tzedakah · Niddah · Noahide laws), been picked? Chesdovi ( talk) 12:28, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I suggest that we restructure this section - particularly the "Orthodox" row. It is, in my opinion, misleading. It lists Haredi, Hassidic and Modern as the three branches of Orthodox Judaism. Clearly this is incorrect. Hassidic Judaism is a subset of Haredi Judaism, as is Lithuanian (non-Hassidic) Haredi Judaism and Sephardic Haredi Judaism. Either all three should be listed under Haredi Judaism, or none should. For an example of how we can arrange it, see the Hebrew Wikipedia template at the bottom of this page. [1]
I propose we arrange it as follows: Orthodox - Haredi ( Hassidic • Litvish • Sephardic) • Dati Leumi ( Hardal) • Modern Orthodox Sstr ( talk) 17:05, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Please make this template narrower, say 2/3rds its current width, for the sake of smaller screens and windows. Also, please make the dots between links look less like dead pixels. {{·}} (i.e. a middot between the two curly template brackets) seems to be the norm. Thanks. 212.84.103.144 ( talk) 20:15, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
{{·w}}
, but do not think we should change the width of this template. Also because the specific entries on each line are chosen for their length in view of the present width of the template, which means it would have to be reorganised.
Debresser (
talk) 06:35, 15 June 2010 (UTC)I have reorganized the template to make its width narrower (see below). For the sake of the reason given originally, I recommend it is adopted. 212.84.100.119 ( talk) 01:45, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
Proposed template; collapsed for spacing reasons
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Note this also makes it much taller and more likely to disrupt image layout. ― cobaltcigs 03:06, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
I agree, the template as it is now is way too wide. Also the font for the links and dots is too small. 213.246.121.86 ( talk) 12:35, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Could someone add Samaritan to the list of denominations please? 84.13.28.220 ( talk) 09:21, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
I added the AH alongside the Shulchan Aruch and Mishna Brura. As stated in the article on AH, the AH is considered one of the authoritative sources of modern law, and many would use that as the final arbiter. Yossiea (talk) 19:53, 2 October 2009 (UTC)]]
This
edit request to
Template:Judaism has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
24.104.140.61 ( talk) 13:53, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Can someone please add the category, "Holidays," to the template "Judaism"? I feel that this would be an important inclusion, and will add knowledge to those of us inquiring about the subject. Davidbena ( talk) 22:43, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Thank you, IZAK, for bringing this to my attention. What IZAK said is correct, we do have many templates for individual aspects of Judaism, but I believe that this would go nicely in articles which do not really fit into other templates. The template has a bit of (not really)POV problems (,but problems with the choice of links) , which will have to be discussed if it is kept. I don't believe that Ovadia Yosef merits inclusion in this template any more than the Vilna Gaon, for example. However, this template should only be used in places where no template like {{ Jews and Judaism sidebar}} or {{ JewishLifeCycle}} would be more direct. E=MC^2 T@lk 01:46, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
See Binary search tree for above...what next, the Evolutionary tree, or even better, the Tree of Knowledge? The plot thickens! IZAK 03:51, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Why are these templates some sort of mauve? Would dark blue for the headers, and alternating light blue and white for the lines, make more sense? Jayjg (talk) 14:19, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia! It is not a "scholars' convention", nor is it meant to do anything but be a free repository of information! Templates and categories are around to make life easier. We must think in the interests of the casual browser of the encyclopedia. The question that should be dealt with here, and only this question, is: "Is this template making it easier for people to access Judaism-related articles? How can we make it better?" E=MC^2 T@lk 18:06, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't want to stall the development of this particular template too much...but I'm thinking now, hoping that those following this development proposal are familiar with mathematical tree-diagrams, will be able to figure out what I'm proposing now...
This is a proposal to overhaul all the Jew/Jews/Judaism/Jewishness/J* templates. What I'm thinking is this:
Where each of these are the various templates. I would like to see the Jewish Holidays template (which is, contrary to what has been said here previously, far from exhaustive) and the Jewish Life Cycle template revamped, and possibly turned into {RIGHT} templates rather than {BOTTOM} ones. What I'm thinking is something along the lines of a hierarchy of these related templates, where, for example, the JEW template would have a section of "related article series" for languages, ethnicities, history, national-origin, & judaism; etc. Thoughts? I realize this is something of a rather extensive overhaul. Maybe we should shoot to be done with it by Shavuot? :-D Tomer TALK 23:03, May 2, 2005 (UTC)
(UTC)
IZAK 03:06, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
No. and you're funny, even when you're trying to be demeaning. look up binary search tree. Tomer TALK 03:28, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
The problem with defining Judaism as a "religion" like Christianity or Islam is that Jews are NOT just a religion, we are more like a tribal people, and there's a lot of overlap between "religion" and "culture." A tribe is sometimes anthropologically defined as a group that has these five criteria: (1) common land of origin, (2) common ancestors (mythical or real), (3) common language (or at least some common words used by everyone), (4) common religion or belief system, and (5) common customs revolving around holidays and foods. We Jews fit all 5 criteria. Also, we are matrilineal for membership in the tribe, but patrilineal as to membership in "clans" (kohen, levi, Yisroel). These are also common tribal customs, i.e., one must either be born into it or adopted into the tribe or clan, one cannot join just by believing in it as with other religions. (In the case of kohen or levi, it is entirely based on geneaology and one cannot be a kohen or levi except by birth.)
So nu, we are a people, and "religion" is only part of it. "Atheist Christian" or "Atheist Muslim" might be an oxymoron, but "atheist Jew" is not. I would therefore vote for including links to things like secular Zionism, humanistic Judaism, etc. – perhaps with an explanation somewhere about the tribal nature of being a Jew. At the very least, "Jew" SHOULD be linked!
One reason for including such links is that non-Jews tend to think of Jews only in terms of religion (as in "Catholic, Protestant, Jewish") and are genuinely puzzled by Jews who are not "religious" by their (gentile) definitions. And yet, they look under "Judaism" for answers to such questions because it never occurs to them to them to look for "secular Jew." Maybe this is already discussed somewhere on Wikipedia – if yes, then it should be linked to the template somewhere, I think.
Also, I think "Sandaq" should be cross-referenced with the spelling "Sandek" because that is the more common spelling in American Yinglish. Ditto for a lot of other Hebrew & Yiddish terms. The preferred academic spelling is not the way most Americans will spell the words when searching for them, and it's not how they are usually spelled in novels and other literature. We want to be helpful, not obscure. rooster613
Since User:TShilo12 seems to be tinkering with the template, I would like to state again, that I think the template looks to me like a fallen "bloated blimp waiting to explode" or a " misbegotten hippopotamus" of some sort...because honestly now, do we really intend to place this monstrosity on Judaism-related pages just because there are similar "templates" to it on Wikipedia? Even worse, the template is a mess! Here are some over-all observations worth noting:
So the above are some of my observations for now. Does anyone care to join in with the critique? IZAK 07:34, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Hey. Over at Template talk:Islam there has been some debate about adding criticism of Islam to the template. One of the arguments against it has been that criticism of Judaism (which unlike criticism of Islam and Christianity does not exist) is not on this template. On Islamic articles there has been a slight problem with editors trying to do things anti-Islam so some of the editors of the template feel it is a continuation. I typically tend to be middle of the line between the two camps and I think it should be added. However, I don't think it will stand if there is only criticism for Islam and not for Christianity, Judaism, Atheism, and the other major belief systems. So, I would encourage you to come to Template talk:Islam and participate in the discussion there and bring this to a more universal level. I am aware that the dynamics of this will be different since there is not a criticism page for Judaism but I'm sure in time will come. I'm not fully sure that the idea of an individual criticism page for a religion is encyclopedically sound... but, it is a reality and as long as its NPOV it should be fine. So, speculative thoughts would be welcome on the Islam template talk page so maybe there can be a concensus on this. Thanks. gren グレン 17:04, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
So what I'm thinking is:
obviously, some of this stuff should be pared out...
(sign your name please)
No kidding, all that is missing is the kosher " kitchen sink" IZAK 05:43, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I "edited" the above list/s so that we can all read them as they appear in their original articles, no need for "funny squeeglies" that no-one can read. This way everyone knows how the original articles appear on Wikipedia. IZAK 01:25, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
This bloated blimp on a page, it's not a "template", is like having the proverbial "bull in a China shop" – it's disgustingly bloated to the point of being obtuse and meaningless. There are many other fine, SMALLER templates that deal with the gamut of articles and topics pertaining to Judaism (as I previously mentioned above, see Duplication of other templates), but this blimp does nothing but blur the picture (literally and figuratively). So let's try to stick with Template:Jews and Judaism sidebar which is relatively neater and tries to avoid "dealing with the challenge of dealing with everything" – including the (kosher) kitchen sink. Thank you. IZAK 07:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
IT'S A B L I M P ... IZAK 07:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I am removing this from the template page: <noinclude>Template links are incompatible with this template. To elaborate, {{tl|Judaism}} will be merged into {{tl|Jews and Judaism sidebar}}, but the final product will sit at ''Judaism''. ''Jew'' will have famous Jews.</noinclude>
In addition, I edited the template so that it deals with, and only reflects, JUDAISM (cause, how on Earth do articles about kibbutzim etc fit in with "Judaism"?), so at least this version of the template will be referring to Judaism if it's used by some folks, and it has been used already. IZAK 10:22, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Any place to fit on the template a link to Messianic Judaism? I'll add it to the very bottom for now unless someone else wants to change it. inigmatus 16:47, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I believe the Judaism template is a good example of how a religion's template should be done. I would like to ask any impartial editors to also take a look at the Scientology template and make any suggestions for bringing it up to the same standards of fairness and encyclopedic impartiality as this one. Highfructosecornsyrup 18:20, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Can we also include the festival of Sigd and the role of the Kessim in their respective catagores? It would be best if we also expand those articles. Are we attempting to keep this general or include all the geographical streams?
Guy Montag 04:49, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Currently Rif links to an article on a region in Morocco, not an important figure in Judaism. Where is this meant to link? -- Steven J. Anderson 20:12, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
The 'important figures' are arranged in somewhat random order. Does anyone object if I rearrange them in date order?-- Redaktor 12:14, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm considering removing Shacharit, Mincha, Ma'ariv, Musaf and Neilah. They all redirect to Jewish services, which is already linked. A template should be a convenience for the reader to find useful and relevant articles, not a repetitive list of duplicative links. Comments? -- Steven J. Anderson 22:46, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Compared to other religions, this template is way too big. We should start working on shrinking it, getting some of the less important material out, and making it thinner.-- Sefringle 00:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Sefringle, it's what I was saying two years ago (see above discussions) when they started on expanding this blimp, it's about time it was cut by at least half or more! Imagine if Hillel would have said all this to the potential convert, instead of defining Judaism as "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn. ( Babylonian Talmud, tractate Shabbat 31a) IZAK 04:59, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
The three longest sections are: Jewish history, Jewish holidays, and Important figures. Many of these sections contain things barely relevant to Judaism. Such articles should be removed. Possibly even the entire Jewish holidays section, as there already is a Jewish holidays template, which contains most of the holidays on this template ({{ Jewish and Israeli holidays}}). Not to mention many are on the {{ Jews and Judaism sidebar}} template.-- Sefringle 20:07, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Are there any objections to the removial of the "Jewish Holidays" section from this template?-- Sefringle 23:29, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Jewish History The articles listed under Jewish History are very interesting, but tangential; there are other articles more directly relevant to Judaism which (for good reason) are not listed in the template. The template really does need a Jewish History section; let it stick to Judaism.-- Redaktor 16:26, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
There has been no opposition to this proposal for three weeks.-- Redaktor 22:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Important Figures The biggest section of the template is Important Figures. At the risk of stepping on some toes, I would like to propose (a) removing people who are important to one Jewish group but others (e.g., Hasidic rebbes, Vilna Gaon), (b) removing modern rabbis, and (c) pruning down the medieval rabbis. I'm not saying that these aren't important people, just that I think the template is over-loaded with important people and we have to make some choices. I'd be open to some alternative suggestions. – Malik Shabazz ( Talk | contribs) 22:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Going with the tree model I proposed long ago, I think this template should be pared down to its most basic possible level. For example, what Redaktor did above with the Jewish History section... I don't have time to address it right now, but please don't close the discussion in the next 2 days...I've got some ideas I'd like to have a fair shake before anything drastic is done, but I really need to be concentrating on work stuff until Thursday afternoon... Tom e r talk 03:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Why are some section headings blue and others black?-- Redaktor 22:22, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
From the Jews · Judaism · Denominations section I suggest the removal of all movements. Including dead sects like the Hasideans and Tzedukim. Otherwise rename it to movements and include movements like Zionism and remove denominations like Rabbinic. In which case it wont make it noteworthy for a Judaism template and should be removed all together.
I guess I'll start to fix it. 210.84.40.154 22:29, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
What do most of: Principles of faith · Minyan · Kabbalah Noahide laws · God · Eschatology · Messiah Chosenness · Holocaust · Halakha · Kashrut Modesty · Tzedakah · Ethics · Mussar have to do with Jewish philosophy. This section should be renamed or be change to include links to philosophical ideas. Or possibly even to some fundamental books like the Saadia Goan's Emunot v'Dayot 210.84.40.154 22:43, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
This section is completely on the Template:Jewish life. Any objections to the removial of this section? Yahel Guhan 10:34, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
An anonymous editor added links to various Christian topics such as the New Testament, Jesus Christ and Christ. These links were piped using the Messianic Jewish names for these things, such as "Brit Chadashah" and "Yahshua HaMashiach". My biggest concern was that the link to Jewish messiah was completely removed and replaced with Christ, which clearly is not appropriate when representing mainstream Judaism. I know that some people don't even consider Messianic Jews "Jewish", but I personally wouldn't mind at least a link to Messianic Judaism on this template. However, I believe decepitely blurring the lines between Judaism and Christianity by slipping in various Christian topical articles through piped Hebrew terms does not seem appropriate. I'd like to hear the anon's case for including this new content, and I would like to hear what others have to say about these changes. - Andrew c [talk] 14:41, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Any reason for this? Masterhomer 22:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I think the Menorah is better symbol for Judaism than the Star of David. It seems to be more universally recognized as Jewish. Also, the star of David has been used in other areas (such as the flag of modern Israel), thus not everyone considers it a symbol of Judaism. Bless sins ( talk) 19:53, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
The biggest section of the template, by far, is "Important figures". A few months ago, I proposed trimming that section and got little feedback. If nobody objects, I'll start removing important figures over the next week or so. – Malik Shabazz ( Talk | contribs) 02:15, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I think Judah the Prince is an incorrect translation of Hebrew Judah haNasi. 'haNasi' means 'the president', while 'haNasich' means 'the prince'. so it should be 'Judah the President', but should better be 'Judah haNasi', since president is interpreted differently in different cultures. Nevo taaseh ( talk) 15:15, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
It might be easier to just have a List of important figures in Judaism placeholder article and just point the template there? – Kendrick7 talk 19:43, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Template:Twelvers2 can become... Template:Twelvers
I also was wondering when we would be adding a fourth image. -- Enzuru 22:52, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
I think the Important Figures section is quite objective. I am hesitant to add more people to it as the template is long enough as it is. However, how do we decide who goes in there? It seems that all of the contemporary people or those from the past century could all be classified as "Orthodox". I'm afraid that if I add Conservative, Reform, or Reconstructionist important figures, these will get reverted. What criteria should we create for adding to the Important Figures section so that it doesn't become a monstrosity. Valley2city 22:11, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
This template is still pretty big. I'm thinking perhaps parts could be spun off to their own templates...specifically I'm thinking Template:History of Judaism (analogous to Template:History of France, etc.) would be a good place to start..and that Jewish history can remain as a link in this template as part of another section (probably one yet to be created, by collapsing several other sections into it)... Thoughts? Tom e r talk 20:36, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
As for the "bloat" thing...what I was referring to is that there are still several articles that are linked to more than once, from different places within the template... also, there's already a {{ JewishHolidays}}, so why are we taking up 4 lines in this template to list them all (or even half)? I see a similar thing has happened at {{ Jews and Judaism sidebar}}, where a dozen languages have found their way back into the template, completely ignoring the existence of {{ Jewish languages}}, and without any apparently consistent rationale. Tom e r talk 20:43, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
While I see the use of this template, it seems troublesome that it conflicts with template:Jews and Judaism sidebar. Perhaps a better idea would be to use {{Jews and Judaism sidebar}} combined with one of several mini-templates for specific topics, such as those in the various subsections- Jewish Philosophy, Jewish religious texts, Important Jewish figures, etc. -- Eliyak T· C 04:33, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
This template was "pretty big" several bloat iterations ago, and is now in or around "unspeakably sprawling". I'd personally favour the assemblage of mini-templates idea (perhaps in a meta-template, so as to keep the appearance as consistent as possible), but failing that the show/hide idea would at least be a step in the right direction. Alai 06:05, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Hello, it has been suggested on the Talk:Bible page (see Talk:Bible#Space) that this template and others be made collapsible, in order to improve article layout. I looked at the {{ Christianity}} template to see what was done there to make that possible. What do you think of modifying the {{ Judaism}} template to add this feature? Loves Macs (talk) 13:47, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be better to order the entries of each subsection of this template in alphabetical order? (e.g. Cheder, Kollel, Yeshiva) Debresser ( talk) 19:10, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
This template is, in my opinion, way too big and cumbersome. I think we need to narrow it down to the most critical and basic aspects of Judaism. In order to consolidate and cleanup the template, I have made a new proposed template. I made a lot of changes, and I did have a reasoning behind each one. Please let me know if there's a particular change that you'd like me to explain. Please comment. -shirulashem (talk) 15:49, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
PROPOSED TEMPLATE
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A few small things: "denominatons" without capital. Where is Kollel? I think Beis Yaakov should be left out, because it is not a type but a brand name. It is (forgive me for being rude) like adding Heineken to "Lager beer, dark beer, non-alcohol beer". Debresser ( talk) 20:27, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
I do not think that "Beis Yaakov" today really carries much relationship to the original movement; it's now the canonic name for a frum girls school (Koh Somar L'Veis Ya'akov, V'Sagaid Livnei Yisrael...). -- Avi ( talk) 00:22, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
I propose to add a link Criticism of Judaism to the template at bottom. This would be balanced and neutral, and would be consistent with similar links in the following similar religion templates:
By what criteria have the current five (out of 613!) featured laws, (Kashrut · Tzniut · Tzedakah · Niddah · Noahide laws), been picked? Chesdovi ( talk) 12:28, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I suggest that we restructure this section - particularly the "Orthodox" row. It is, in my opinion, misleading. It lists Haredi, Hassidic and Modern as the three branches of Orthodox Judaism. Clearly this is incorrect. Hassidic Judaism is a subset of Haredi Judaism, as is Lithuanian (non-Hassidic) Haredi Judaism and Sephardic Haredi Judaism. Either all three should be listed under Haredi Judaism, or none should. For an example of how we can arrange it, see the Hebrew Wikipedia template at the bottom of this page. [1]
I propose we arrange it as follows: Orthodox - Haredi ( Hassidic • Litvish • Sephardic) • Dati Leumi ( Hardal) • Modern Orthodox Sstr ( talk) 17:05, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Please make this template narrower, say 2/3rds its current width, for the sake of smaller screens and windows. Also, please make the dots between links look less like dead pixels. {{·}} (i.e. a middot between the two curly template brackets) seems to be the norm. Thanks. 212.84.103.144 ( talk) 20:15, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
{{·w}}
, but do not think we should change the width of this template. Also because the specific entries on each line are chosen for their length in view of the present width of the template, which means it would have to be reorganised.
Debresser (
talk) 06:35, 15 June 2010 (UTC)I have reorganized the template to make its width narrower (see below). For the sake of the reason given originally, I recommend it is adopted. 212.84.100.119 ( talk) 01:45, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
Proposed template; collapsed for spacing reasons
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Note this also makes it much taller and more likely to disrupt image layout. ― cobaltcigs 03:06, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
I agree, the template as it is now is way too wide. Also the font for the links and dots is too small. 213.246.121.86 ( talk) 12:35, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Could someone add Samaritan to the list of denominations please? 84.13.28.220 ( talk) 09:21, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
I added the AH alongside the Shulchan Aruch and Mishna Brura. As stated in the article on AH, the AH is considered one of the authoritative sources of modern law, and many would use that as the final arbiter. Yossiea (talk) 19:53, 2 October 2009 (UTC)]]
This
edit request to
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24.104.140.61 ( talk) 13:53, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Can someone please add the category, "Holidays," to the template "Judaism"? I feel that this would be an important inclusion, and will add knowledge to those of us inquiring about the subject. Davidbena ( talk) 22:43, 21 December 2015 (UTC)