This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
It has come to my attention that SIL's classification is not always accepted by some native linguists of some languages. Could it at least be mentioned that the classification is not "definitive" but SIL's or from any other resources?--- moyogo 04:25, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I felt I had to flag up a major edit to the template. I have re-added two proposed sections: 'ISO/DIS 639-3' and 'Pronunciation'. I am not sure if the latter will work, but its worth adding if the main objection has been overcome. My attention was drawn to a new possibility with templates: we can now define a default for a parameter. The syntax is {{{parameter|default}}}. This allows us to add a new parameter and then define it in each article. In the past, we have had to work the other way round. Thus, the {{{rank}}} parameter now has the default text: not in the top 100. This text has been added by hand into most articles, but does not need to be any more. I hope this is a step in the right direction. -- Gareth Hughes 14:12, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Linking directly to Ethnologue in the template is probably not a good idea. The main problem is that some languages will have multiple ISO 639-3 codes (each covering a separate dialect of the language). Therefore, the parameter string will be a list of codes, which cannot be plugged into a single URL. -- Gareth Hughes 15:11, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I've added {{{pronunciation}}} and {{{iso3}}} to Arabic language as an example (note the ISO 639-3 code differs from SIL14). The first point above — using a different variable for multiple-coded languages so that unique codes can link to Ethnologue — would work. The multiple parameter could default to nothing. However, incorporating mini-templates for each language code in the multiple parameter may be tricky. I came across real problems with this when I last worked on the modular template proposal. The problem was that parameter strings were not carried through every level of the template. However, the new default settings might make the implementation of this easier. Can I try a mock-up of the syntax to see if it will work? -- Gareth Hughes 16:37, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I agree that it may not be needed. However, I have seen a few places where it has been asked how the name of a language should be pronounced. {{{nativename}}} should be the languages own name for itself, in native script if possible. I see that parameter as being very different from <{{{pronunciation}}}. It is significant that Hertevin language, Tigrigna language and many others are not pronounced as they are written. This is valid and useful information. I think that we should think of some way to provide IPA help to Wikipedia users. -- Gareth Hughes 16:35, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I've been talking to my template guru ( SEWilco) who has been showing me some of the hidden mysteries of templates. I used {{ if}} to include a link to a language's Ethnologue entry if an ISO 639-3 is defined. You'll see that Arabic language has a link, whereas Afrikaans doesn't (it hasn't been added yet). Now that I've discovered how to do that, I'm going to have a look at the modularity proposal again. This will make the majority of instances of the template much shorter (i.e. the 'official' bits will be automagically removed when not needed). Can we leave the 'pronunciation' issue dormant for a moment, until the template's full flexibility has been tested? -- Gareth Hughes 20:53, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I've just made the template collapsable. If {{{nation}}} is left undefined in an article, the 'Ranking', 'Official language of' and 'Regulated by' rows will automatically disappear. Therefore, if a particular language doesn't use these parameters, just leave them out, and the template will automatically simplify itself (see Koy Sanjaq Surat for a collapsed version). I've tested this in a few places, and it seems to be working fine. You can see {{ language/one}}, {{ language/two}} and {{ language/official}} as the sub-templates that are now called, or not, by the main template. I'm not sure if I can explain how it works: I hardly understand it myself. I hope the newly collapsable version doesn't caus any problems, and meets with general approval. -- Gareth Hughes 23:44, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I see that you and Tobias have had a look at the new template design. I should try to write down how it works, because it is complex. The extra space has probably been called by {{ language/official}}. I shall have a look at it, to see what might cause the problem. As you have probably noticed, the {{{iso3}}} parameter can only be a single code entry or nothing at the moment (don't try iso3=, as that will create a link to Ethnologue). The next stage is allow a list of ISO 639-3 codes. Until we have found an easy way to do that, it is best not to implement the linking feature to the {{{sil}}} parameter, as most article already define it. If you feel that any occurrence of the template could do without the 'official' section, just remove the {{{nation}}} parameter, and the template will remove the entire section. -- Gareth Hughes 13:07, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
OK. I've sorted the problem of the extra space. In the {{{family}}} parameter, the last line gives the name of the language in bold. This should not have a <br> tag at the end, as this creates unneeded white space at the bottom of the cell. I think the old version of the template was ableto ignore this mistake, but the new one isn't able to ignore it. If yoy see white space, delete the last <br> tag. -- Gareth Hughes 13:19, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
I had thought of that, and it would be possible to have the ranking element appear/disappear depending on whether its parameter is defined or not. I linked it with the official module because the two generally run together, but, as you have pointed out, this rule has very many exceptions. I think this is a good case to separate the two. I'll have a go at it. -- Gareth Hughes 14:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
OK. That wasn't too difficult. If the {{{rank}}} parameter is not defined in the article, that line disappears. This happens independently of whether the official section is used or not. -- Gareth Hughes 15:16, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Some languages which lack ISO 639-2 codes of their own have instead a general code like aus (Australian languages) or afa (other Afro-asiatic), following Ethnologue 14. But is this appropriate? -- Ptcamn 18:23, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
What would the answer to your question help? Do you want to convince ISO to change their codes? IMO Wikipedia should take this as given. Furthermore the ISO 639-3 codes change the situation for lots of languages Tobias Conradi (Talk) 13:48, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
The latest addition is what I call the 'family array'. It is an easier way to enter information into he 'Genetic classification' box. The traditional method of entering text into the {{{family}}} parameter still works. Therfore, if there is anything that doesn't fit the new system, you can still use the old one. The problem with this old system was that you had to type the formatting (<br> ) into the parameter on the article page. I've now added that formatting into the template, so that you do not need to add on the article page. In the new system, the {{{family}}} parameter is not used. Instead, you add the following to the template call in the article:
|fam1=top level language family |fam2=next level down |fam3=next level down again
I've set up the template to accept parameters up to and including {{{fam10}}}. More levels can be added if needed. In this system, the last |famn= is the most immeadiate language group to which a langauge belongs: you do not write the name of the language itself in these parameters, that is added automatically. If you want any of the parameters to link to an article about a language family, you simply type:
|fam8=[[language family]]
I'm working on using a similar system to allow us to incorporate lists of language codes. -- Gareth Hughes 12:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
You can see the new system in action in Abkhaz language ( Talk · history · watch) and Syriac language ( Talk · history · watch). -- Gareth Hughes 12:20, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't see anything, which article are you looking at? -- Gareth Hughes 13:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Can dialects be included to use the template? Some also have 639-3 code because in ethnologue they are regarded as language. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 13:45, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
|lc1=aaa|ld1=Ghotuo|ll1=Ghotuo language |lc2=bbb|ld2=Barai|ll2=Barai language |lc3=ccc|ld3=Chamicuro|ll3=Chamicuro language |lc4=ddd|ld4=Dongotono|ll4=Dongotono language |lc5=eee|ld5=E|ll5=E (linguistics) |lc6=ggg|ld6=Gurgula|ll6=Gurgula language
In this format, lc stands for 'language code' (the ISO 639-3 of that language/dialect), ld stands for 'language dialect' (the name of the language/dialect to appear in the infobox) and ll stands for 'language link' (Wikipedia's link to an artcle on the language/dialect). The lc will automatically link to the Ethnologue page. The ll parameter does not have to be defined if the link is the same as the contents of ld. Each language/dialect is automatically linked, on the basis that we want an article about each of them. However, I'm not sure if this is wise, and I'll put in a workaround for unlinked languages/dialects if needed. I hope you like it! -- Gareth Hughes 14:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
For example purposes, Syriac language is using the list of ISO 639-3 codes now. As you can see, continuing to include all the SIL14 codes makes a little cumbersome.
I'm all for ditching the SIL14 codes. The spot for the ISO 639-3 codes is now obvious, so I hope people will start filling it in. I see this as a transitional period: we add ISO 639-3 codes for a little while, and then remove SIL14 from the template (we don't have to remove the codes from the articles). The information is still there, and we can carry on adding ISO 639-3 codes until it is done (is it ever done?). -- Gareth Hughes 18:11, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I would not oppose if they where ditched today. Garzo good work! I inserted code-tag to make the codes all same length and thus align better. mdash is quiet long isn't it? maybe use "-"? Another prob: if this is a language template, how can there be links to multiple WP-language-articles in the code section? Either the template is used for a language-collection (Syriac) or Syriac is a language and then the sub-"languages" are dialects. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 10:51, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
I've added in some more flexibility to the template today, so here's the 'heads-up'. As mentioned above, the template is now suitable for sign languages. You use {{{signers}}} instead of {{{speakers}}}, and the template automatically sets itself up for a signed language. It also sets the coloured bar to silver.
You might not be into constructed languages, but the template can be used for them also. Two new parameters are used for conlangs: {{{creator}}} and {{{setting}}}. The former replaces {{{states}}}, and is used for naming the creator and date of creation of the conlang (it also automatically makes the coloured bar black with white text). The other new parameter replaces {{{region}}}. It is purposefully vague, and can contain geographical inforamtion, original intention for creating the language or its use in literature.
The new parameter {{{extinct}}} can be used instead of {{{speakers}}} to replace that field in the infobox with information about language extinction. This would usually be the approximate year of extinction, but could contain other information. This allows the template to be used appropriately for long-extinct languages.
I hope you like these new possibilities. I've included information on all parameters at the top of this page. You can see an example of each of these new types of template in the following three articles: Auslan, Esperanto and Akkadian language. -- Gareth Hughes 22:43, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
It seems that the infobox for all the Unclassified languages (that use the color #dddddd) got all messed up. What happened? See example here. -- Hottentot 01:12, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
The {{Ido language}} has a section for a seal or symbol of a language that we've been using and the new template doesn't have that which made the Ido page look a bit worse, and I reverted it. I would try putting it in myself but this big template scares me and I don't want to mess around with it. Mithridates 03:30, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Thank you! And yes. Back then I had the feeling that Google didn't index the first paragraph of articles properly when it started with the language table gibberish, but in retrospect I don't think that was the reason. It's still a mystery to me how Google chooses the description it shows in the search results though. — mark ✎ 13:23, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
I hope you're all enjoying the changes I've made to the template over the last few days. They were all mostly things that we had been wishing for for a while. I think there are three issues that we'll want to deal with in the near future:
Looking at this template's equivalents in other-language Wikipedias, they mostly follow the pattern here. However, there are a few different styles we might be interested in.
There are some interesting things to look at there. Do you think we should develop the possibility of using the template with reconstructed proto-languages? Also, we might want to think about how we organise the colours for creoles and pidgins. -- Gareth Hughes 02:26, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the feedback, guys. You both mentioned dropping SIL14, so I think I'll just be bold and do it. By the way, the change of link address really help: I think it was Novial language where there was an ISO 639-3 code that Ethnologue just wasn't interested in. The automation of colours is something that had crossed my mind. I saw that someone decided that tomato/pink colours should be swapped (for some strange reason), and it's a lot of work to do a colour change manually. As {{{fam1}}} is currently set up to be a wikilink to the top-level language family. If this parameter, or, perhaps easier, a newly defined parameter were used to define the family colour, the in-article definition would have to be spot-on: one would have to write Afro-Asiatic, and not Afroasiatic, Afro-asiatic, Afro-Asiatic languages or any other variant spelling. I think that remembering this is as easy as remembering yellow. Using the parameter in this way would also force the article to display the parameter's information exactly, abandoning the flexibility we have at the moment. I would like to see a proposal of how this might work. Incorporating the {{ IPA notice}} shouldn't be too difficult. It'd probably have to change shape to match the infobox, and it might replace the rather vague language links at the bottom. I'll have a try at providing a split row for ISO 639-2 B/T codes: it'll have to be optional anyway. Providing a row for a writing system shouldn't be a problem, but sign languages will probably want to opt out automatically. The pronunciation row can be un-commented whenever we feel ready for it (opt out for sign languages again), but we could do with a decent explanation about what we expect from it in the usage section above. -- Gareth Hughes 17:55, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
I've added a few little tweaks here and there. SIL14 has gone, and you can now define the B/T codes for ISO 639-2 in seperate fields (side by side). The {{ IPA notice}} has now been placed as a footerin the template. However, there are two possible variations: one is to replace this with {{ IndicText}}, the other is to replace it with a sign language footer (I felt IPA may not be relevent). The IPA notice is the default, but sign language defalts automatically change this to their own footer. The Indic one has to be specified with |notice=Indic. Although Indic text articles are also likely to use IPA, Indic text often presents more difficult display problems. Let me know if there are other modules needed: we might want a 'no notice' possibility. I'm not sure I like the colour of the notices: I simply transferred the colour of the existing notices across. I'm working on introducing a new parameter, {{{fam}}}, which would automatically define {{{fam1}}} and {{{familycolor}}}. It would be difficult to use an existing parameter, because it has to be very strictly defined. I'm having a bit of difficulty working out which way round the defaults should go at the moment. -- Gareth Hughes 13:07, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Tried? You've done it: you might just need the browser/page to refresh. I'm a bit sceptical about using the same parameter. Which template did SEWilco use this technique on? -- Gareth Hughes 16:51, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Also a comment about the rank - the list which is linked to above doesn't actually have any numeric ranking. That's going to make it frustrating to get the ranking for a language which is not right near the top. Wikipedia:WikiProject Language Template points to a totally different list. (It also has a different usage for "region".) When the edits settle down, a bit more help /guidance /consistency for us mere mortals could be useful. :-) Gailtb 23:14, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
It looks like every article that has uses a space in-between the template code and the 1st paragraph gives the article an extra white space at the top of it, such as in Adyghe. Is there any way to get rid of it? -- 67.160.197.22 20:46, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
SEWilco used "array" technique in Flag template(s). Something about template array is written at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Flag_Template#country_shortname_alias_xxx maybe he knows more. I think we need two templates for each group, one that is called by color the other by groupname. But both containing a color. I think we cannot do
if param1=darkgreen then darkgreen elsif param1=germanic then darkgreen elsif param1=lightgreen then lightgreen elsif param1=roman then lightgreen
Tobias Conradi (Talk) 17:07, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
See also | Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages |
---|
Honduras Sign Language - I only filled in few variables. e.g. no speakers. The tmp is broken right now. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 10:22, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
This template has really improved in the past few days, but I was wondering what we should do about the color of Unclassified languages. Unclassified language articles using an infobox are Jalaa, Laal, Ongota, and Shabo. Jalaa & Laal formerly used #dddddd, which is incorrect because #dddddd is for Language isolates. My suggestion is that we use the color white. What does everyone else think?
Another issue is about the Chukotko-Kamchatkan languages. All those articles currently use #dddddd, but none of the languages are isolates. We need to find a different color for those languages. -- Hottentot 22:24, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
First I want to say a big THANKYOU to garzo for all the work improving the language templates. Second, I want to propose a small change: the default parameter for the "family" with sign languages is currently fam1="sign language". I would rather the default was family="unknown" and fam1 set to nothing. Most contributors to this page will be aware that sign languages emerge naturally in communities with deaf people, and are not all related to each other; however the notion that sign language was invented by someone and spread around the world is a persistent myth. Even the 'family color' classification scheme is, for the most part, about 'genetic' groupings of spoken languages, whereas for sign languges the "family color" actually refers to the primary mode of the language (signed) rather than whether they are language isolates, or belong to a group of related languages, etc — although I am not proposing changing the color scheme, just the default parameter.
Thirdly, I'm still not convinved we need a seperate category for "spoken in" and "region". Look at English language, for example. What is the "region" setting but a duplication of the information already in the "spoken in" category? Similarly for Chinese language. At the other end of the spread of languages, have a look at Ojibwe language, for example, which is "spoken in" Canada and the US, and the "region" is "in Canada, blah blah region and in the US, blah blah region". Again, I can't help but feel that one of these categories is redundant (in this case, the former). Can't we just merge these two potentially confusing categories?
ntennis 02:41, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I think it is advisable to keep providing more specific information on the location and distribution of the language; it's not enough, I think, to just mention in which state(s) it is spoken. Therefore, I think merging the two is more sensible than just making region optional, even though it will require more work in adjusting individual articles. We could have a transitional period in which 'region' is optional while the details instead are being added to 'states'. — mark ✎ 10:40, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
I've introduced a new sub-template at {{ language/statesregion}}. This is how it all works:
For sign languages, the same process occurs, but 'Spoken' is changed to 'Signed'. For conlangs, the two rows are always displayed with 'Created by: {{{creator}}}' and 'Setting and usage: {{{setting}}}' instead. I've run some simple tests, and it appears to work well. Let me know if there are any glitches. -- Gareth Hughes 16:31, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
That's what I really like! you can define familycolor and don't need to assign any genetic value - you already get the main class. I found this out lately when adding new stub articles. I lately only filled in region and left out state. I think the two should be merged. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 03:20, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Have made some boolean templates that you can use if you feel to (might render the code easier), see Category: If Templates for syntax -- AzaToth talk 12:24, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Have made a minor change in template if, all current use is ok, but you can use the optional parameters expr,then and else instead. this might make it look better -- AzaToth talk 18:54, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Also if you would like to know, there is a template {{ switch}} now also to be used -- AzaToth talk 04:46, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
By using switch in some sub templates, you'll remove a lot of ifs, and the code seems more nice. Also, this is only 1 sub-template-call :) – AzaToth talk 17:08, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
{{switch |{{{1|}}} |case: Afro-Asiatic=yellow |case: Afro-asiatic=yellow |case: yellow=yellow |case: Niger-Congo=orange |case: orange=orange |case: Nilo-Saharan=gold |case: gold=gold |case: Khoisan=goldenrod |case: goldenrod=goldenrod |case: Indo-European=lawngreen |case: lawngreen=lawngreen |case: Caucasian=lightgreen |case: lightgreen=lightgreen |case: Altaic=yellowgreen |case: yellowgreen=yellowgreen |case: Uralic=limegreen |case: limegreen=limegreen |case: Dravidian=mediumspringgreen |case: mediumspringgreen=mediumspringgreen |case: Austronesian=tomato |case: tomato=tomato |case: Austro-Asiatic=lightcoral |case: Austro-asiatic=lightcoral |case: Austroasiatic=lightcoral |case: lightcoral=lightcoral |case: Sino-Tibetan=pink |case: pink=pink |case: Australian=orchid |case: orchid=orchid |case: Papuan=violet |case: violet=violet |case: Tai-Kadai=lavender |case: lavender=lavender |case: American=lightblue |case: lightblue=lightblue |case: Na-Dene=deepskyblue |case: Na-Dené=deepskyblue |case: deepskyblue=deepskyblue |case: Eskimo-Aleut=lightcyan |case: lightcyan=lightcyan |case: Isolate=#dddddd |case: isolate=#dddddd |case: language isolate=#dddddd |case: #dddddd=#dddddd |case: Sign=silver |case: sign=silver |case: sign language=silver |case: silver=silver |case: Conlang=black |case: conlang=black |case: constructed language=black |case: black=black |case: Default=white |case: white=white |default=white }}
{{switch |{{{1|}}} |case: Afro-Asiatic=[[Afro-Asiatic languages|Afro-Asiatic]] |case: Afro-asiatic=[[Afro-Asiatic languages|Afro-Asiatic]] |case: yellow=[[Afro-Asiatic languages|Afro-Asiatic]] |case: Niger-Congo=[[Niger-Congo languages|Niger-Congo]] |case: orange=[[Niger-Congo languages|Niger-Congo]] |case: Nilo-Saharan=[[Nilo-Saharan languages|Nilo-Saharan]] |case: gold=[[Nilo-Saharan languages|Nilo-Saharan]] |case: Khoisan=[[Khoisan languages|Khoisan]] |case: goldenrod=[[Khoisan languages|Khoisan]] |case: Indo-European=[[Indo-European languages|Indo-European]] |case: lawngreen=[[Indo-European languages|Indo-European]] |case: Caucasian=[[Languages of the Caucasus|Caucasian]] |case: lightgreen=[[Languages of the Caucasus|Caucasian]] |case: Altaic=[[Altaic languages|Altaic]] |case: yellowgreen=[[Altaic languages|Altaic]] |case: Uralic=[[Uralic languages|Uralic]] |case: limegreen=[[Uralic languages|Uralic]] |case: Dravidian=[[Dravidian languages|Dravidian]] |case: mediumspringgreen=[[Dravidian languages|Dravidian]] |case: Austronesian=[[Austronesian languages|Austronesian]] |case: tomato=[[Austronesian languages|Austronesian]] |case: Austro-Asiatic=[[Austro-Asiatic languages|Austro-Asiatic]] |case: Austro-asiatic=[[Austro-Asiatic languages|Austro-Asiatic]] |case: Austroasiatic=[[Austro-Asiatic languages|Austro-Asiatic]] |case: lightcoral=[[Austro-Asiatic languages|Austro-Asiatic]] |case: Sino-Tibetan=[[Sino-Tibetan languages|Sino-Tibetan]] |case: pink=[[Sino-Tibetan languages|Sino-Tibetan]] |case: Australian=[[Australian Aboriginal languages|Australian]] |case: orchid=[[Australian Aboriginal languages|Australian]] |case: Papuan=[[Papuan languages|Papuan]] |case: violet=[[Papuan languages|Papuan]] |case: Tai-Kadai=[[Tai-Kadai languages|Tai-Kadai]] |case: lavender=[[Tai-Kadai languages|Tai-Kadai]] |case: American=[[Indigenous languages of the Americas|American]] |case: lightblue=[[Indigenous languages of the Americas|American]] |case: Na-Dene=[[Na-Dené languages|Na-Dené]] |case: Na-Dené=[[Na-Dené languages|Na-Dené]] |case: deepskyblue=[[Na-Dené languages|Na-Dené]] |case: Eskimo-Aleut=[[Eskimo-Aleut languages|Eskimo-Aleut]] |case: lightcyan=[[Eskimo-Aleut languages|Eskimo-Aleut]] |case: Isolate=[[language isolate]] |case: isolate=[[language isolate]] |case: language isolate=[[language isolate]] |case: #dddddd=[[language isolate]] |case: Sign=[[sign language]] |case: sign=[[sign language]] |case: sign language=[[sign language]] |case: silver=[[sign languages]] |case: Conlang=[[constructed language]] |case: conlang=[[constructed language]] |case: constructed language=[[constructed language]] |case: black=[[constructed language]] |case: Default=— |case: white— |default=— }}
I see no reason to put the iso codes in an HTML code element. These are not computer language code samples (which the code element is intended for), and their position in a table makes the usual monospace font formatting an unnecessary distraction. Any objections to removing the <code> tags?— Michael Z. 2005-11-26 19:12 Z
style="font-family:monospace;"
to the respective table cells, or to surround each language code with <abbr style="font-style:normal; font-family:monospace;">...</abbr>
, since the codes serve as standardized abbreviations representing the languages.The centre alignment of the text in the IPA note at the bottom is a bit distracting, too. In my browser, the first line fills the width of the table, and the second line consists of just the word "Unicode" centred by itself. I see no reason for this not to remain in Wikipedia's default left-margin text alignment. Any objections to changing this? — Michael Z. 2005-11-26 19:16 Z
Every so often I think that we've arrived at the updated template we are looking for, and then the new ideas start to come in. Some of the latest additions are:
I hope that's all useful to you. -- Gareth Hughes 21:17, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi. I just noticed that appears to be a Template:Dialect, created by 70.25.200.220 ( talk · contribs) sometime in August. I didn't know that such a template existed, but the problem is that the template doesn't look so good -- its defalt color is grey, and doesn't look as nice as this template. What do you think we should do with it? Should we use it or delete it? Any thoughts? It is currently used on four articles: Michif language, Newfoundland Irish, Bungee language, and Scottish Gaelic in Canada -- Hottentot 03:07, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Everyone needs to give this page a read. It describes the negative system impact of "templates within templates". I'll be back later to talk about how we're going to eliminate them fromt his template, as soon as I do some experiments. -- Netoholic @ 18:03, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
In the past being the key phrase there. Wikimedia has far more computing power now than back then, and I'm not so sure these templates cause much of an effect now. Dan100 ( Talk) 08:45, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I propose that this template should be moved to Template:Infobox language, mostly because this is an infobox → Aza Toth 10:34, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I noticed that the colors for Australian and Papuan languages are very similar, and it's almost hard to tell the difference unless they are side-by-side. I suggest we make the color darker or lighter for one of them. Any thoughts? -- Khoikhoi 03:05, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
If we get a bot, maybe other usefull stuff could be done. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 17:46, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi all. I would like to trigger a conversion of this master piece from usage of template:if ( talk) to the faster and server friendlier template:qif ( talk). I have done a try (without the noinclude section) at User:Adrian Buehlmann/language 2005-12-15-1 ( diff). Note: this is a manual conversion.
What do you think? Or would any of the local experts do the conversion? Please feel free to edit User:Adrian Buehlmann/language 2005-12-15-1 as you see fit (open house user sub-page, also the associated talk page). – Adrian | Talk 21:58, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I've converted Template:Language/codelist ( diff). – Adrian | Talk 18:13, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I've converted Template:Language/statesregion ( diff). – Adrian | Talk 18:21, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I did change all {{ if defined call}},{{ if defined call1}},{{ if defined call2}} to {{ if defined}} ( talk) → Aza Toth 18:46, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
It has come to my attention that SIL's classification is not always accepted by some native linguists of some languages. Could it at least be mentioned that the classification is not "definitive" but SIL's or from any other resources?--- moyogo 04:25, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I felt I had to flag up a major edit to the template. I have re-added two proposed sections: 'ISO/DIS 639-3' and 'Pronunciation'. I am not sure if the latter will work, but its worth adding if the main objection has been overcome. My attention was drawn to a new possibility with templates: we can now define a default for a parameter. The syntax is {{{parameter|default}}}. This allows us to add a new parameter and then define it in each article. In the past, we have had to work the other way round. Thus, the {{{rank}}} parameter now has the default text: not in the top 100. This text has been added by hand into most articles, but does not need to be any more. I hope this is a step in the right direction. -- Gareth Hughes 14:12, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Linking directly to Ethnologue in the template is probably not a good idea. The main problem is that some languages will have multiple ISO 639-3 codes (each covering a separate dialect of the language). Therefore, the parameter string will be a list of codes, which cannot be plugged into a single URL. -- Gareth Hughes 15:11, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I've added {{{pronunciation}}} and {{{iso3}}} to Arabic language as an example (note the ISO 639-3 code differs from SIL14). The first point above — using a different variable for multiple-coded languages so that unique codes can link to Ethnologue — would work. The multiple parameter could default to nothing. However, incorporating mini-templates for each language code in the multiple parameter may be tricky. I came across real problems with this when I last worked on the modular template proposal. The problem was that parameter strings were not carried through every level of the template. However, the new default settings might make the implementation of this easier. Can I try a mock-up of the syntax to see if it will work? -- Gareth Hughes 16:37, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I agree that it may not be needed. However, I have seen a few places where it has been asked how the name of a language should be pronounced. {{{nativename}}} should be the languages own name for itself, in native script if possible. I see that parameter as being very different from <{{{pronunciation}}}. It is significant that Hertevin language, Tigrigna language and many others are not pronounced as they are written. This is valid and useful information. I think that we should think of some way to provide IPA help to Wikipedia users. -- Gareth Hughes 16:35, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I've been talking to my template guru ( SEWilco) who has been showing me some of the hidden mysteries of templates. I used {{ if}} to include a link to a language's Ethnologue entry if an ISO 639-3 is defined. You'll see that Arabic language has a link, whereas Afrikaans doesn't (it hasn't been added yet). Now that I've discovered how to do that, I'm going to have a look at the modularity proposal again. This will make the majority of instances of the template much shorter (i.e. the 'official' bits will be automagically removed when not needed). Can we leave the 'pronunciation' issue dormant for a moment, until the template's full flexibility has been tested? -- Gareth Hughes 20:53, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I've just made the template collapsable. If {{{nation}}} is left undefined in an article, the 'Ranking', 'Official language of' and 'Regulated by' rows will automatically disappear. Therefore, if a particular language doesn't use these parameters, just leave them out, and the template will automatically simplify itself (see Koy Sanjaq Surat for a collapsed version). I've tested this in a few places, and it seems to be working fine. You can see {{ language/one}}, {{ language/two}} and {{ language/official}} as the sub-templates that are now called, or not, by the main template. I'm not sure if I can explain how it works: I hardly understand it myself. I hope the newly collapsable version doesn't caus any problems, and meets with general approval. -- Gareth Hughes 23:44, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I see that you and Tobias have had a look at the new template design. I should try to write down how it works, because it is complex. The extra space has probably been called by {{ language/official}}. I shall have a look at it, to see what might cause the problem. As you have probably noticed, the {{{iso3}}} parameter can only be a single code entry or nothing at the moment (don't try iso3=, as that will create a link to Ethnologue). The next stage is allow a list of ISO 639-3 codes. Until we have found an easy way to do that, it is best not to implement the linking feature to the {{{sil}}} parameter, as most article already define it. If you feel that any occurrence of the template could do without the 'official' section, just remove the {{{nation}}} parameter, and the template will remove the entire section. -- Gareth Hughes 13:07, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
OK. I've sorted the problem of the extra space. In the {{{family}}} parameter, the last line gives the name of the language in bold. This should not have a <br> tag at the end, as this creates unneeded white space at the bottom of the cell. I think the old version of the template was ableto ignore this mistake, but the new one isn't able to ignore it. If yoy see white space, delete the last <br> tag. -- Gareth Hughes 13:19, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
I had thought of that, and it would be possible to have the ranking element appear/disappear depending on whether its parameter is defined or not. I linked it with the official module because the two generally run together, but, as you have pointed out, this rule has very many exceptions. I think this is a good case to separate the two. I'll have a go at it. -- Gareth Hughes 14:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
OK. That wasn't too difficult. If the {{{rank}}} parameter is not defined in the article, that line disappears. This happens independently of whether the official section is used or not. -- Gareth Hughes 15:16, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Some languages which lack ISO 639-2 codes of their own have instead a general code like aus (Australian languages) or afa (other Afro-asiatic), following Ethnologue 14. But is this appropriate? -- Ptcamn 18:23, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
What would the answer to your question help? Do you want to convince ISO to change their codes? IMO Wikipedia should take this as given. Furthermore the ISO 639-3 codes change the situation for lots of languages Tobias Conradi (Talk) 13:48, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
The latest addition is what I call the 'family array'. It is an easier way to enter information into he 'Genetic classification' box. The traditional method of entering text into the {{{family}}} parameter still works. Therfore, if there is anything that doesn't fit the new system, you can still use the old one. The problem with this old system was that you had to type the formatting (<br> ) into the parameter on the article page. I've now added that formatting into the template, so that you do not need to add on the article page. In the new system, the {{{family}}} parameter is not used. Instead, you add the following to the template call in the article:
|fam1=top level language family |fam2=next level down |fam3=next level down again
I've set up the template to accept parameters up to and including {{{fam10}}}. More levels can be added if needed. In this system, the last |famn= is the most immeadiate language group to which a langauge belongs: you do not write the name of the language itself in these parameters, that is added automatically. If you want any of the parameters to link to an article about a language family, you simply type:
|fam8=[[language family]]
I'm working on using a similar system to allow us to incorporate lists of language codes. -- Gareth Hughes 12:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
You can see the new system in action in Abkhaz language ( Talk · history · watch) and Syriac language ( Talk · history · watch). -- Gareth Hughes 12:20, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't see anything, which article are you looking at? -- Gareth Hughes 13:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Can dialects be included to use the template? Some also have 639-3 code because in ethnologue they are regarded as language. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 13:45, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
|lc1=aaa|ld1=Ghotuo|ll1=Ghotuo language |lc2=bbb|ld2=Barai|ll2=Barai language |lc3=ccc|ld3=Chamicuro|ll3=Chamicuro language |lc4=ddd|ld4=Dongotono|ll4=Dongotono language |lc5=eee|ld5=E|ll5=E (linguistics) |lc6=ggg|ld6=Gurgula|ll6=Gurgula language
In this format, lc stands for 'language code' (the ISO 639-3 of that language/dialect), ld stands for 'language dialect' (the name of the language/dialect to appear in the infobox) and ll stands for 'language link' (Wikipedia's link to an artcle on the language/dialect). The lc will automatically link to the Ethnologue page. The ll parameter does not have to be defined if the link is the same as the contents of ld. Each language/dialect is automatically linked, on the basis that we want an article about each of them. However, I'm not sure if this is wise, and I'll put in a workaround for unlinked languages/dialects if needed. I hope you like it! -- Gareth Hughes 14:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
For example purposes, Syriac language is using the list of ISO 639-3 codes now. As you can see, continuing to include all the SIL14 codes makes a little cumbersome.
I'm all for ditching the SIL14 codes. The spot for the ISO 639-3 codes is now obvious, so I hope people will start filling it in. I see this as a transitional period: we add ISO 639-3 codes for a little while, and then remove SIL14 from the template (we don't have to remove the codes from the articles). The information is still there, and we can carry on adding ISO 639-3 codes until it is done (is it ever done?). -- Gareth Hughes 18:11, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I would not oppose if they where ditched today. Garzo good work! I inserted code-tag to make the codes all same length and thus align better. mdash is quiet long isn't it? maybe use "-"? Another prob: if this is a language template, how can there be links to multiple WP-language-articles in the code section? Either the template is used for a language-collection (Syriac) or Syriac is a language and then the sub-"languages" are dialects. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 10:51, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
I've added in some more flexibility to the template today, so here's the 'heads-up'. As mentioned above, the template is now suitable for sign languages. You use {{{signers}}} instead of {{{speakers}}}, and the template automatically sets itself up for a signed language. It also sets the coloured bar to silver.
You might not be into constructed languages, but the template can be used for them also. Two new parameters are used for conlangs: {{{creator}}} and {{{setting}}}. The former replaces {{{states}}}, and is used for naming the creator and date of creation of the conlang (it also automatically makes the coloured bar black with white text). The other new parameter replaces {{{region}}}. It is purposefully vague, and can contain geographical inforamtion, original intention for creating the language or its use in literature.
The new parameter {{{extinct}}} can be used instead of {{{speakers}}} to replace that field in the infobox with information about language extinction. This would usually be the approximate year of extinction, but could contain other information. This allows the template to be used appropriately for long-extinct languages.
I hope you like these new possibilities. I've included information on all parameters at the top of this page. You can see an example of each of these new types of template in the following three articles: Auslan, Esperanto and Akkadian language. -- Gareth Hughes 22:43, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
It seems that the infobox for all the Unclassified languages (that use the color #dddddd) got all messed up. What happened? See example here. -- Hottentot 01:12, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
The {{Ido language}} has a section for a seal or symbol of a language that we've been using and the new template doesn't have that which made the Ido page look a bit worse, and I reverted it. I would try putting it in myself but this big template scares me and I don't want to mess around with it. Mithridates 03:30, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Thank you! And yes. Back then I had the feeling that Google didn't index the first paragraph of articles properly when it started with the language table gibberish, but in retrospect I don't think that was the reason. It's still a mystery to me how Google chooses the description it shows in the search results though. — mark ✎ 13:23, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
I hope you're all enjoying the changes I've made to the template over the last few days. They were all mostly things that we had been wishing for for a while. I think there are three issues that we'll want to deal with in the near future:
Looking at this template's equivalents in other-language Wikipedias, they mostly follow the pattern here. However, there are a few different styles we might be interested in.
There are some interesting things to look at there. Do you think we should develop the possibility of using the template with reconstructed proto-languages? Also, we might want to think about how we organise the colours for creoles and pidgins. -- Gareth Hughes 02:26, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the feedback, guys. You both mentioned dropping SIL14, so I think I'll just be bold and do it. By the way, the change of link address really help: I think it was Novial language where there was an ISO 639-3 code that Ethnologue just wasn't interested in. The automation of colours is something that had crossed my mind. I saw that someone decided that tomato/pink colours should be swapped (for some strange reason), and it's a lot of work to do a colour change manually. As {{{fam1}}} is currently set up to be a wikilink to the top-level language family. If this parameter, or, perhaps easier, a newly defined parameter were used to define the family colour, the in-article definition would have to be spot-on: one would have to write Afro-Asiatic, and not Afroasiatic, Afro-asiatic, Afro-Asiatic languages or any other variant spelling. I think that remembering this is as easy as remembering yellow. Using the parameter in this way would also force the article to display the parameter's information exactly, abandoning the flexibility we have at the moment. I would like to see a proposal of how this might work. Incorporating the {{ IPA notice}} shouldn't be too difficult. It'd probably have to change shape to match the infobox, and it might replace the rather vague language links at the bottom. I'll have a try at providing a split row for ISO 639-2 B/T codes: it'll have to be optional anyway. Providing a row for a writing system shouldn't be a problem, but sign languages will probably want to opt out automatically. The pronunciation row can be un-commented whenever we feel ready for it (opt out for sign languages again), but we could do with a decent explanation about what we expect from it in the usage section above. -- Gareth Hughes 17:55, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
I've added a few little tweaks here and there. SIL14 has gone, and you can now define the B/T codes for ISO 639-2 in seperate fields (side by side). The {{ IPA notice}} has now been placed as a footerin the template. However, there are two possible variations: one is to replace this with {{ IndicText}}, the other is to replace it with a sign language footer (I felt IPA may not be relevent). The IPA notice is the default, but sign language defalts automatically change this to their own footer. The Indic one has to be specified with |notice=Indic. Although Indic text articles are also likely to use IPA, Indic text often presents more difficult display problems. Let me know if there are other modules needed: we might want a 'no notice' possibility. I'm not sure I like the colour of the notices: I simply transferred the colour of the existing notices across. I'm working on introducing a new parameter, {{{fam}}}, which would automatically define {{{fam1}}} and {{{familycolor}}}. It would be difficult to use an existing parameter, because it has to be very strictly defined. I'm having a bit of difficulty working out which way round the defaults should go at the moment. -- Gareth Hughes 13:07, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Tried? You've done it: you might just need the browser/page to refresh. I'm a bit sceptical about using the same parameter. Which template did SEWilco use this technique on? -- Gareth Hughes 16:51, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Also a comment about the rank - the list which is linked to above doesn't actually have any numeric ranking. That's going to make it frustrating to get the ranking for a language which is not right near the top. Wikipedia:WikiProject Language Template points to a totally different list. (It also has a different usage for "region".) When the edits settle down, a bit more help /guidance /consistency for us mere mortals could be useful. :-) Gailtb 23:14, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
It looks like every article that has uses a space in-between the template code and the 1st paragraph gives the article an extra white space at the top of it, such as in Adyghe. Is there any way to get rid of it? -- 67.160.197.22 20:46, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
SEWilco used "array" technique in Flag template(s). Something about template array is written at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Flag_Template#country_shortname_alias_xxx maybe he knows more. I think we need two templates for each group, one that is called by color the other by groupname. But both containing a color. I think we cannot do
if param1=darkgreen then darkgreen elsif param1=germanic then darkgreen elsif param1=lightgreen then lightgreen elsif param1=roman then lightgreen
Tobias Conradi (Talk) 17:07, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
See also | Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages |
---|
Honduras Sign Language - I only filled in few variables. e.g. no speakers. The tmp is broken right now. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 10:22, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
This template has really improved in the past few days, but I was wondering what we should do about the color of Unclassified languages. Unclassified language articles using an infobox are Jalaa, Laal, Ongota, and Shabo. Jalaa & Laal formerly used #dddddd, which is incorrect because #dddddd is for Language isolates. My suggestion is that we use the color white. What does everyone else think?
Another issue is about the Chukotko-Kamchatkan languages. All those articles currently use #dddddd, but none of the languages are isolates. We need to find a different color for those languages. -- Hottentot 22:24, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
First I want to say a big THANKYOU to garzo for all the work improving the language templates. Second, I want to propose a small change: the default parameter for the "family" with sign languages is currently fam1="sign language". I would rather the default was family="unknown" and fam1 set to nothing. Most contributors to this page will be aware that sign languages emerge naturally in communities with deaf people, and are not all related to each other; however the notion that sign language was invented by someone and spread around the world is a persistent myth. Even the 'family color' classification scheme is, for the most part, about 'genetic' groupings of spoken languages, whereas for sign languges the "family color" actually refers to the primary mode of the language (signed) rather than whether they are language isolates, or belong to a group of related languages, etc — although I am not proposing changing the color scheme, just the default parameter.
Thirdly, I'm still not convinved we need a seperate category for "spoken in" and "region". Look at English language, for example. What is the "region" setting but a duplication of the information already in the "spoken in" category? Similarly for Chinese language. At the other end of the spread of languages, have a look at Ojibwe language, for example, which is "spoken in" Canada and the US, and the "region" is "in Canada, blah blah region and in the US, blah blah region". Again, I can't help but feel that one of these categories is redundant (in this case, the former). Can't we just merge these two potentially confusing categories?
ntennis 02:41, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I think it is advisable to keep providing more specific information on the location and distribution of the language; it's not enough, I think, to just mention in which state(s) it is spoken. Therefore, I think merging the two is more sensible than just making region optional, even though it will require more work in adjusting individual articles. We could have a transitional period in which 'region' is optional while the details instead are being added to 'states'. — mark ✎ 10:40, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
I've introduced a new sub-template at {{ language/statesregion}}. This is how it all works:
For sign languages, the same process occurs, but 'Spoken' is changed to 'Signed'. For conlangs, the two rows are always displayed with 'Created by: {{{creator}}}' and 'Setting and usage: {{{setting}}}' instead. I've run some simple tests, and it appears to work well. Let me know if there are any glitches. -- Gareth Hughes 16:31, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
That's what I really like! you can define familycolor and don't need to assign any genetic value - you already get the main class. I found this out lately when adding new stub articles. I lately only filled in region and left out state. I think the two should be merged. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 03:20, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Have made some boolean templates that you can use if you feel to (might render the code easier), see Category: If Templates for syntax -- AzaToth talk 12:24, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Have made a minor change in template if, all current use is ok, but you can use the optional parameters expr,then and else instead. this might make it look better -- AzaToth talk 18:54, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Also if you would like to know, there is a template {{ switch}} now also to be used -- AzaToth talk 04:46, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
By using switch in some sub templates, you'll remove a lot of ifs, and the code seems more nice. Also, this is only 1 sub-template-call :) – AzaToth talk 17:08, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
{{switch |{{{1|}}} |case: Afro-Asiatic=yellow |case: Afro-asiatic=yellow |case: yellow=yellow |case: Niger-Congo=orange |case: orange=orange |case: Nilo-Saharan=gold |case: gold=gold |case: Khoisan=goldenrod |case: goldenrod=goldenrod |case: Indo-European=lawngreen |case: lawngreen=lawngreen |case: Caucasian=lightgreen |case: lightgreen=lightgreen |case: Altaic=yellowgreen |case: yellowgreen=yellowgreen |case: Uralic=limegreen |case: limegreen=limegreen |case: Dravidian=mediumspringgreen |case: mediumspringgreen=mediumspringgreen |case: Austronesian=tomato |case: tomato=tomato |case: Austro-Asiatic=lightcoral |case: Austro-asiatic=lightcoral |case: Austroasiatic=lightcoral |case: lightcoral=lightcoral |case: Sino-Tibetan=pink |case: pink=pink |case: Australian=orchid |case: orchid=orchid |case: Papuan=violet |case: violet=violet |case: Tai-Kadai=lavender |case: lavender=lavender |case: American=lightblue |case: lightblue=lightblue |case: Na-Dene=deepskyblue |case: Na-Dené=deepskyblue |case: deepskyblue=deepskyblue |case: Eskimo-Aleut=lightcyan |case: lightcyan=lightcyan |case: Isolate=#dddddd |case: isolate=#dddddd |case: language isolate=#dddddd |case: #dddddd=#dddddd |case: Sign=silver |case: sign=silver |case: sign language=silver |case: silver=silver |case: Conlang=black |case: conlang=black |case: constructed language=black |case: black=black |case: Default=white |case: white=white |default=white }}
{{switch |{{{1|}}} |case: Afro-Asiatic=[[Afro-Asiatic languages|Afro-Asiatic]] |case: Afro-asiatic=[[Afro-Asiatic languages|Afro-Asiatic]] |case: yellow=[[Afro-Asiatic languages|Afro-Asiatic]] |case: Niger-Congo=[[Niger-Congo languages|Niger-Congo]] |case: orange=[[Niger-Congo languages|Niger-Congo]] |case: Nilo-Saharan=[[Nilo-Saharan languages|Nilo-Saharan]] |case: gold=[[Nilo-Saharan languages|Nilo-Saharan]] |case: Khoisan=[[Khoisan languages|Khoisan]] |case: goldenrod=[[Khoisan languages|Khoisan]] |case: Indo-European=[[Indo-European languages|Indo-European]] |case: lawngreen=[[Indo-European languages|Indo-European]] |case: Caucasian=[[Languages of the Caucasus|Caucasian]] |case: lightgreen=[[Languages of the Caucasus|Caucasian]] |case: Altaic=[[Altaic languages|Altaic]] |case: yellowgreen=[[Altaic languages|Altaic]] |case: Uralic=[[Uralic languages|Uralic]] |case: limegreen=[[Uralic languages|Uralic]] |case: Dravidian=[[Dravidian languages|Dravidian]] |case: mediumspringgreen=[[Dravidian languages|Dravidian]] |case: Austronesian=[[Austronesian languages|Austronesian]] |case: tomato=[[Austronesian languages|Austronesian]] |case: Austro-Asiatic=[[Austro-Asiatic languages|Austro-Asiatic]] |case: Austro-asiatic=[[Austro-Asiatic languages|Austro-Asiatic]] |case: Austroasiatic=[[Austro-Asiatic languages|Austro-Asiatic]] |case: lightcoral=[[Austro-Asiatic languages|Austro-Asiatic]] |case: Sino-Tibetan=[[Sino-Tibetan languages|Sino-Tibetan]] |case: pink=[[Sino-Tibetan languages|Sino-Tibetan]] |case: Australian=[[Australian Aboriginal languages|Australian]] |case: orchid=[[Australian Aboriginal languages|Australian]] |case: Papuan=[[Papuan languages|Papuan]] |case: violet=[[Papuan languages|Papuan]] |case: Tai-Kadai=[[Tai-Kadai languages|Tai-Kadai]] |case: lavender=[[Tai-Kadai languages|Tai-Kadai]] |case: American=[[Indigenous languages of the Americas|American]] |case: lightblue=[[Indigenous languages of the Americas|American]] |case: Na-Dene=[[Na-Dené languages|Na-Dené]] |case: Na-Dené=[[Na-Dené languages|Na-Dené]] |case: deepskyblue=[[Na-Dené languages|Na-Dené]] |case: Eskimo-Aleut=[[Eskimo-Aleut languages|Eskimo-Aleut]] |case: lightcyan=[[Eskimo-Aleut languages|Eskimo-Aleut]] |case: Isolate=[[language isolate]] |case: isolate=[[language isolate]] |case: language isolate=[[language isolate]] |case: #dddddd=[[language isolate]] |case: Sign=[[sign language]] |case: sign=[[sign language]] |case: sign language=[[sign language]] |case: silver=[[sign languages]] |case: Conlang=[[constructed language]] |case: conlang=[[constructed language]] |case: constructed language=[[constructed language]] |case: black=[[constructed language]] |case: Default=— |case: white— |default=— }}
I see no reason to put the iso codes in an HTML code element. These are not computer language code samples (which the code element is intended for), and their position in a table makes the usual monospace font formatting an unnecessary distraction. Any objections to removing the <code> tags?— Michael Z. 2005-11-26 19:12 Z
style="font-family:monospace;"
to the respective table cells, or to surround each language code with <abbr style="font-style:normal; font-family:monospace;">...</abbr>
, since the codes serve as standardized abbreviations representing the languages.The centre alignment of the text in the IPA note at the bottom is a bit distracting, too. In my browser, the first line fills the width of the table, and the second line consists of just the word "Unicode" centred by itself. I see no reason for this not to remain in Wikipedia's default left-margin text alignment. Any objections to changing this? — Michael Z. 2005-11-26 19:16 Z
Every so often I think that we've arrived at the updated template we are looking for, and then the new ideas start to come in. Some of the latest additions are:
I hope that's all useful to you. -- Gareth Hughes 21:17, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi. I just noticed that appears to be a Template:Dialect, created by 70.25.200.220 ( talk · contribs) sometime in August. I didn't know that such a template existed, but the problem is that the template doesn't look so good -- its defalt color is grey, and doesn't look as nice as this template. What do you think we should do with it? Should we use it or delete it? Any thoughts? It is currently used on four articles: Michif language, Newfoundland Irish, Bungee language, and Scottish Gaelic in Canada -- Hottentot 03:07, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Everyone needs to give this page a read. It describes the negative system impact of "templates within templates". I'll be back later to talk about how we're going to eliminate them fromt his template, as soon as I do some experiments. -- Netoholic @ 18:03, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
In the past being the key phrase there. Wikimedia has far more computing power now than back then, and I'm not so sure these templates cause much of an effect now. Dan100 ( Talk) 08:45, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I propose that this template should be moved to Template:Infobox language, mostly because this is an infobox → Aza Toth 10:34, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I noticed that the colors for Australian and Papuan languages are very similar, and it's almost hard to tell the difference unless they are side-by-side. I suggest we make the color darker or lighter for one of them. Any thoughts? -- Khoikhoi 03:05, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
If we get a bot, maybe other usefull stuff could be done. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 17:46, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi all. I would like to trigger a conversion of this master piece from usage of template:if ( talk) to the faster and server friendlier template:qif ( talk). I have done a try (without the noinclude section) at User:Adrian Buehlmann/language 2005-12-15-1 ( diff). Note: this is a manual conversion.
What do you think? Or would any of the local experts do the conversion? Please feel free to edit User:Adrian Buehlmann/language 2005-12-15-1 as you see fit (open house user sub-page, also the associated talk page). – Adrian | Talk 21:58, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I've converted Template:Language/codelist ( diff). – Adrian | Talk 18:13, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I've converted Template:Language/statesregion ( diff). – Adrian | Talk 18:21, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I did change all {{ if defined call}},{{ if defined call1}},{{ if defined call2}} to {{ if defined}} ( talk) → Aza Toth 18:46, 16 December 2005 (UTC)