Former countries Template‑class | |||||||
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Arab world Template‑class | |||||||
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WikiProject Arab world Image ping Nabataeus there is generally no need for an image, especially as large as the one you've added in templates of this kind. Layout should be consistent with similar templates /info/en/?search=Template Ancient Egypt dynasties sidebar Regards User Swazzo User talk:Swazzo talk 22 19 12 January 2018 UTC.
Alid dynasties of northern Iran, Shirvanshah, and Marashis weren't "Arab dynasties" just because they had some Arab ancestry down the line. They were all very much non-Arab in identity. Its like saying that the Russian Empire was a "Tatar Empire" just because Peter the Great's mother was of Tatar descent. And they weren't located in the Mashriq either. - LouisAragon ( talk) 14:46, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
The Russian analogy is flawed I am afraid. The Shirvanshah were indeed of paternal Arab origin, and were culturally under the constant flow of Abbasid influence until the rise of Persian dynasties, where they were gradually Persianized in culture. As for Mashriq, I concur. New section should be made (labelled "Other dynasties" ?) Nabataeus ( talk) 15:47, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
The first Alid dynasty was founded by Hasan ibn Zayd, born in Arabia. As for the Marashis you may proceed and delete them, I have my doubt on their Sayyid claim. Nabataeus ( talk) 07:19, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
If (X)ization is the criteria of this template (Or others for that matter) then perhaps we should add the Ayyubid and Mamluk dynasties, as both of them, additional to being Arabized, claimed Arab lineages (The Burji dynasty in the case of Mamluks). We might also in the process delete the Seljuks from the Turkic states template [2] since they don't fulfil the requirement. The nature of this template is the list of dynasties of Arab origin. Shirvanshahs were irrefutably of Arab descent who were initially Abbasid governors. Sources of their Arab origin are provided in the Shirvanshah article with further input (If additional sources are needed, then I will gladly provide them). That being said, I agree with the removal of Marashis, however I will restore the Shirvanshah in the template. Nabataeus ( talk) 10:51, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: consensus to move the template at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 01:18, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
Template:History of the Arab League member states →
Template:Historical Arab states and dynasties – This template includes ancient and medieval states and dynasties, the current name is wrong, misleading and confusing. For example, A medieval Arab dynasty in Caucasus or Persia (Iran) has nothing to do with modern "Arab league".
Wario-Man (
talk) 18:31, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.@ Makeandtoss: Actually both your suggestion " Arab world" and current name " Arab League" are some kind of anachronism. Consider User:Frasfras17's comment [3]. -- Wario-Man ( talk) 07:51, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
Neither Assassins nor Sayyid dynasty were specifically Arab.
Hassan-i Sabbah.
Kingesh (
talk) 19:02, 4 August 2018 (UTC)<---
CU blocked
sock of
User:Ehsan iq
Vol. 5, No. 4 (1930), pp. 675-696.
ahh!, the good old "sock-puppet" accusations, never gets old. :)
anyway, the point is. sources about his origins on Wikipedia presents him as an arab, and the template will act accordingly.
Kingesh (
talk) 19:43, 4 August 2018 (UTC)<---
CU blocked
sock of
User:Ehsan iq
Dear
Aṭlas, Yemen is the origin of Arabs, Yemen is pure Arab country, these ancient kingdoms are Arabs. The Qahtanite are Arabs who originated from south Arabia they are pure Arabs who came from Yemen and vast majority of Arab tribes originated from Yemen. I have travelled to Yemen and learned a lot about of it's history and I met with a lot of Yemeni historians and all said that these ancient kingdoms are Arabs. Even though I'm not the one who added these kingdoms, but I strongly agree with them. There are a lot of users who added these ancient kingdoms like
Nabataeus,
Umayyadinian,
MWahaiibii and I agree with them
Fofo235
So please do not revert any edits until you explain why you did so and if you have any hatred against Arabs and you do not want to admit that they had ancient civilizations than that is clearly unexpected and it is only your opinion, so please discuss on the talk page if you want to talk about your opinion and we might see what can we agree on o
Fofo235 (
talk) 20:00, 3 August 2018 (UTC) <---
CU blocked
sock, see
SPI Ehsan iq
- Aṭlas ( talk) 21:19, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Aṭlas It seems like you are rude and bad person, this is a place to discuss not to insult each other. You are asking me for sources? Funny, my sources is Wikipedia itself, the Qahtanite pure arabs is NOT a myth and if you have an prove against it then please mention them. Today, more than 80% of Yemeni people have the J1 which is considered an "Arab gene" making them one of the purest Arab people in the world. If Yemen is not the origin of Arabs than where did Arabs come from? Historical fact, the Greeks and Romans called Yemen as
Arabia Felix or Happy Arabia since Yemen was very wealthy and civilized , I wonder why did they call it Arabia if they were not Arabs? If you read some articles on Wikipedia about the Arab tribes or Arabs outside the Arabian peninsula they say that they originated from Yemen, actually I have a lot of friends who say that there ancestors came from Yemen, and Yemen being the origin of Arabs is common knowledge in the Arab World, I do not think that Arab people do not know there origins but you know, funny. for example, Ghassanids and Lakhmids are major Arab tribes that ruled the Levant and Iraq and they migrated from Yemen, sources? Go check it on Wikipedia articles
Ghassanids and
Lakhmids. More sources? Well, the Arab
Nasrid dynasty which ruled Al-Andalus was a branch of
Azd tribes which came from Yemen, also this tribe is a branch of
Qahtanites. Another Arab Muslim scientist Jabir ibn hayyan is also descendent from Qahtanites trib, and there is more and more examples of Arabs who originally from Yemen. To know more check
Arabs,
Tribes of Arabia,
Arab tribes in Iraq
I have been studying Yemeni history for a long time and visited Yemen and all people I met said that these ancient Kingdoms were Arabs, Yemeni people know there history well and I do not think there is need for foreign sources to talk about there history, I do not know how to prove that I visited Yemen but you can visit the country when the war ends and ask the people, historians......
Again stop doing this war editing please.
Fofo235 (
talk) 22:16, 3 August 2018 (UTC) <---
CU blocked
sock, see
SPI Ehsan iq
- Aṭlas ( talk) 23:16, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
OMG, please I can not go further in this discussion. I'm not mentioning my opinions, when the Yemeni people themselves say that these ancient kingdoms were arab, and Arabs say they are originally from Yemen, you can not come and tell them that you arabs do not know your history, it is in there traditions and culture, you can not come and say you are wrong, your traditions are wrong, you are a bunch of idiots, this what Arab and Yemenis know and believe , of course they know there history and origins more than you. I just do not understand you, this is there history imagine going to Yemen and say to the that there ancient kingdoms were not arab, they would reject that completely. As I mentioned above a lot of major Arab Tribes and dynasties who immigrated from Yemen, but you are so stubborn and reject that and I do not know the reasons. About Arabia Felix part, the Greeks would call it Yemen Felix instead if they were not arabs, right?
Yemen was rarely occupied by invaders, it was only ruled for short period under the Persians and Ethiopians, so basically DNA of Yemeni people would not change much from ancient times to modern times, I do not think that ancient people in yemen just died, since no genocide happened on them or natural disaster that might wipe out these people, the people from ancient times remained and migrated to the north. <---
CU blocked
sock, see
SPI Ehsan iq
Dear
LouisAragon, please stop making edit war on me, it is funny how you accuse me of war editing while I did not even delete any of your edits, actually this is the first time I see this user. Any way I hope that you will explain your edits.
Fofo235 (
talk) 00:07, 4 August 2018 (UTC) <---
CU blocked
sock, see
SPI Ehsan iq
Why they shouldn't be added? @ Pinkbeast: Do you have any reasons to not add them to the list? MWahaiibii ( talk) 11:04, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
@ Wario-Man: Hello, its founded by Salih I ibn Mansur Arab immigrant through a caliphate grant, so ruling dynasty is of Arab origin. I cant see why you think it shouldn't be included? MWahaiibii ( talk) 14:53, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
Where exactly did i include WP:OR in my comment? According to the source given in its footnote, the majority of the historians believed Nekor was founded and ruled by a Yemeni dynasty, except Ya'qubi who believed they were of Berber Nafzawah tribe. And its widely accepted that they were Arabs by both modern and pre modern authors. Therefore according to the available sources there are a possibility of them being Arab in origin, hence it can be used in both Arab or Berber related templates or topics until an explicit reliable source is provided that favors one of the two. MWahaiibii ( talk) 17:08, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
Our main concern is whether the ruling dynasty is Arab or not. We are not interested in the demographic of the state and it is obviously of local Berbers at this early period. The Banu Salih dynasty which ruled Nekor falls under the "Arab dynasties" of the template, and they appear to be the sole rulers of this kingdom, also the native name of it is Arabic, "إمارة بني صالح" which translates literally to The Emirate of Banu Salih. MWahaiibii ( talk) 08:08, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
Not only Ya'qubi says that Salih was of the berber nafzawah tribe, but also the scholars Istakhri, Maqdisi, Ibn Hawqal and Bakri. These opinions can be found in the books 'al masalik wal mamlik', 'Ahsan' and 'Al Buldan'.
Certainly, the ruling dynasty of Osroene/Edessa was of (Nabataean) Arab origin. However, was their polity (i.e. Edessa/Osroene) "Arab" as well?:
Perhaps we should swap "Osroene" with " Abgarid dynasty"? - LouisAragon ( talk) 15:01, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
Former countries Template‑class | |||||||
|
Arab world Template‑class | |||||||
|
WikiProject Arab world Image ping Nabataeus there is generally no need for an image, especially as large as the one you've added in templates of this kind. Layout should be consistent with similar templates /info/en/?search=Template Ancient Egypt dynasties sidebar Regards User Swazzo User talk:Swazzo talk 22 19 12 January 2018 UTC.
Alid dynasties of northern Iran, Shirvanshah, and Marashis weren't "Arab dynasties" just because they had some Arab ancestry down the line. They were all very much non-Arab in identity. Its like saying that the Russian Empire was a "Tatar Empire" just because Peter the Great's mother was of Tatar descent. And they weren't located in the Mashriq either. - LouisAragon ( talk) 14:46, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
The Russian analogy is flawed I am afraid. The Shirvanshah were indeed of paternal Arab origin, and were culturally under the constant flow of Abbasid influence until the rise of Persian dynasties, where they were gradually Persianized in culture. As for Mashriq, I concur. New section should be made (labelled "Other dynasties" ?) Nabataeus ( talk) 15:47, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
The first Alid dynasty was founded by Hasan ibn Zayd, born in Arabia. As for the Marashis you may proceed and delete them, I have my doubt on their Sayyid claim. Nabataeus ( talk) 07:19, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
If (X)ization is the criteria of this template (Or others for that matter) then perhaps we should add the Ayyubid and Mamluk dynasties, as both of them, additional to being Arabized, claimed Arab lineages (The Burji dynasty in the case of Mamluks). We might also in the process delete the Seljuks from the Turkic states template [2] since they don't fulfil the requirement. The nature of this template is the list of dynasties of Arab origin. Shirvanshahs were irrefutably of Arab descent who were initially Abbasid governors. Sources of their Arab origin are provided in the Shirvanshah article with further input (If additional sources are needed, then I will gladly provide them). That being said, I agree with the removal of Marashis, however I will restore the Shirvanshah in the template. Nabataeus ( talk) 10:51, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: consensus to move the template at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 01:18, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
Template:History of the Arab League member states →
Template:Historical Arab states and dynasties – This template includes ancient and medieval states and dynasties, the current name is wrong, misleading and confusing. For example, A medieval Arab dynasty in Caucasus or Persia (Iran) has nothing to do with modern "Arab league".
Wario-Man (
talk) 18:31, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.@ Makeandtoss: Actually both your suggestion " Arab world" and current name " Arab League" are some kind of anachronism. Consider User:Frasfras17's comment [3]. -- Wario-Man ( talk) 07:51, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
Neither Assassins nor Sayyid dynasty were specifically Arab.
Hassan-i Sabbah.
Kingesh (
talk) 19:02, 4 August 2018 (UTC)<---
CU blocked
sock of
User:Ehsan iq
Vol. 5, No. 4 (1930), pp. 675-696.
ahh!, the good old "sock-puppet" accusations, never gets old. :)
anyway, the point is. sources about his origins on Wikipedia presents him as an arab, and the template will act accordingly.
Kingesh (
talk) 19:43, 4 August 2018 (UTC)<---
CU blocked
sock of
User:Ehsan iq
Dear
Aṭlas, Yemen is the origin of Arabs, Yemen is pure Arab country, these ancient kingdoms are Arabs. The Qahtanite are Arabs who originated from south Arabia they are pure Arabs who came from Yemen and vast majority of Arab tribes originated from Yemen. I have travelled to Yemen and learned a lot about of it's history and I met with a lot of Yemeni historians and all said that these ancient kingdoms are Arabs. Even though I'm not the one who added these kingdoms, but I strongly agree with them. There are a lot of users who added these ancient kingdoms like
Nabataeus,
Umayyadinian,
MWahaiibii and I agree with them
Fofo235
So please do not revert any edits until you explain why you did so and if you have any hatred against Arabs and you do not want to admit that they had ancient civilizations than that is clearly unexpected and it is only your opinion, so please discuss on the talk page if you want to talk about your opinion and we might see what can we agree on o
Fofo235 (
talk) 20:00, 3 August 2018 (UTC) <---
CU blocked
sock, see
SPI Ehsan iq
- Aṭlas ( talk) 21:19, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Aṭlas It seems like you are rude and bad person, this is a place to discuss not to insult each other. You are asking me for sources? Funny, my sources is Wikipedia itself, the Qahtanite pure arabs is NOT a myth and if you have an prove against it then please mention them. Today, more than 80% of Yemeni people have the J1 which is considered an "Arab gene" making them one of the purest Arab people in the world. If Yemen is not the origin of Arabs than where did Arabs come from? Historical fact, the Greeks and Romans called Yemen as
Arabia Felix or Happy Arabia since Yemen was very wealthy and civilized , I wonder why did they call it Arabia if they were not Arabs? If you read some articles on Wikipedia about the Arab tribes or Arabs outside the Arabian peninsula they say that they originated from Yemen, actually I have a lot of friends who say that there ancestors came from Yemen, and Yemen being the origin of Arabs is common knowledge in the Arab World, I do not think that Arab people do not know there origins but you know, funny. for example, Ghassanids and Lakhmids are major Arab tribes that ruled the Levant and Iraq and they migrated from Yemen, sources? Go check it on Wikipedia articles
Ghassanids and
Lakhmids. More sources? Well, the Arab
Nasrid dynasty which ruled Al-Andalus was a branch of
Azd tribes which came from Yemen, also this tribe is a branch of
Qahtanites. Another Arab Muslim scientist Jabir ibn hayyan is also descendent from Qahtanites trib, and there is more and more examples of Arabs who originally from Yemen. To know more check
Arabs,
Tribes of Arabia,
Arab tribes in Iraq
I have been studying Yemeni history for a long time and visited Yemen and all people I met said that these ancient Kingdoms were Arabs, Yemeni people know there history well and I do not think there is need for foreign sources to talk about there history, I do not know how to prove that I visited Yemen but you can visit the country when the war ends and ask the people, historians......
Again stop doing this war editing please.
Fofo235 (
talk) 22:16, 3 August 2018 (UTC) <---
CU blocked
sock, see
SPI Ehsan iq
- Aṭlas ( talk) 23:16, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
OMG, please I can not go further in this discussion. I'm not mentioning my opinions, when the Yemeni people themselves say that these ancient kingdoms were arab, and Arabs say they are originally from Yemen, you can not come and tell them that you arabs do not know your history, it is in there traditions and culture, you can not come and say you are wrong, your traditions are wrong, you are a bunch of idiots, this what Arab and Yemenis know and believe , of course they know there history and origins more than you. I just do not understand you, this is there history imagine going to Yemen and say to the that there ancient kingdoms were not arab, they would reject that completely. As I mentioned above a lot of major Arab Tribes and dynasties who immigrated from Yemen, but you are so stubborn and reject that and I do not know the reasons. About Arabia Felix part, the Greeks would call it Yemen Felix instead if they were not arabs, right?
Yemen was rarely occupied by invaders, it was only ruled for short period under the Persians and Ethiopians, so basically DNA of Yemeni people would not change much from ancient times to modern times, I do not think that ancient people in yemen just died, since no genocide happened on them or natural disaster that might wipe out these people, the people from ancient times remained and migrated to the north. <---
CU blocked
sock, see
SPI Ehsan iq
Dear
LouisAragon, please stop making edit war on me, it is funny how you accuse me of war editing while I did not even delete any of your edits, actually this is the first time I see this user. Any way I hope that you will explain your edits.
Fofo235 (
talk) 00:07, 4 August 2018 (UTC) <---
CU blocked
sock, see
SPI Ehsan iq
Why they shouldn't be added? @ Pinkbeast: Do you have any reasons to not add them to the list? MWahaiibii ( talk) 11:04, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
@ Wario-Man: Hello, its founded by Salih I ibn Mansur Arab immigrant through a caliphate grant, so ruling dynasty is of Arab origin. I cant see why you think it shouldn't be included? MWahaiibii ( talk) 14:53, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
Where exactly did i include WP:OR in my comment? According to the source given in its footnote, the majority of the historians believed Nekor was founded and ruled by a Yemeni dynasty, except Ya'qubi who believed they were of Berber Nafzawah tribe. And its widely accepted that they were Arabs by both modern and pre modern authors. Therefore according to the available sources there are a possibility of them being Arab in origin, hence it can be used in both Arab or Berber related templates or topics until an explicit reliable source is provided that favors one of the two. MWahaiibii ( talk) 17:08, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
Our main concern is whether the ruling dynasty is Arab or not. We are not interested in the demographic of the state and it is obviously of local Berbers at this early period. The Banu Salih dynasty which ruled Nekor falls under the "Arab dynasties" of the template, and they appear to be the sole rulers of this kingdom, also the native name of it is Arabic, "إمارة بني صالح" which translates literally to The Emirate of Banu Salih. MWahaiibii ( talk) 08:08, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
Not only Ya'qubi says that Salih was of the berber nafzawah tribe, but also the scholars Istakhri, Maqdisi, Ibn Hawqal and Bakri. These opinions can be found in the books 'al masalik wal mamlik', 'Ahsan' and 'Al Buldan'.
Certainly, the ruling dynasty of Osroene/Edessa was of (Nabataean) Arab origin. However, was their polity (i.e. Edessa/Osroene) "Arab" as well?:
Perhaps we should swap "Osroene" with " Abgarid dynasty"? - LouisAragon ( talk) 15:01, 8 March 2019 (UTC)