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Why would anybody insist on having a red link to a deleted page here? If anybody has concrete plans for recreating it - without falling foul of the prohibition of re-creating content deleted at AfD, i.e. creating something substantially different from the old deleted article - then why should this link be included here? Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to remove the "persecution" section from this template, for the following reasons:
(unindent) Sorry, but you haven't addressed anything of what I wrote. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:39, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
the template has slavika, aromanian, arvantika, meglenitic as "Languages and dialects" is this in reference to GREEKS (in general) , or in reference to the GREEK LANGUAGE???, because if it is in reference to the language than it is incorrect information. P m kocovski ( talk)
The language of the Greeks is Greek. -- Olahus ( talk) 16:59, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Please remain at the exaples from the template. The Aromanians, Arvanites, Karamanlides, Bulgarians/Slavo-Macedonians are NOT ethnic Greeks, but ethnic minorities who live in many countries while Greece is one of those countries. The languages spoken by those populations (Aromanian, Albanian, Turkish, Bulgarian/Slavo-Macedonian) are spoken ONLY by those minority populations, NOT by ethnic Greeks. -- Olahus ( talk) 22:11, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Please keep in mind most articles above have at old times been a subject of extensive debate, and are sourced to exhaustion. Also, this template is NOT for "Ethnic" Greeks, as you call them, but for Greeks in general. Genetics is irrelevant from national consciousness and self-identification according to all scholars. Niko Silver 22:32, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
You just presented examples of typical results of ethnic and inguistic assimilations. If you mean that the template is not about ethnic Greeks, then it should remaned into "Ethnic groups from Greece" and exclude the ethnic Greeks who live outside Greece (the Cypriots too!) and the section "languages and dialects" should be renamed into "languages and dialects spoken in Greece" and exclude the Greek dialects spoken outside Greece. -- Olahus ( talk) 22:54, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
There is a consensus here it Olahus's views are respected and the product of his own research and opinions, but they are not applicable to this article. Please can we get back to the status quo ante. Thanks. Politis ( talk) 18:43, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Olahus, your arguments are not only specious, they're also extremely offensive to the hundreds of thousands of Greeks who are proud of their distinctive cultural and linguistic heritage. To say that they are not Arvanites or Vlachs "any more" is not only wrong, it is the height of arrogance. Who are you to tell them what they are and what they are not? · ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 08:51, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Politis, if you say that there is a concensus, show me please a link to it. However, read please this text:
Significant numbers of Greek citizens identify themselves as Turks, Pomaks, Vlachs, Roma, Arvanites (Orthodox Christians who speak a dialect of Albanian), or "Macedonians" or "Slavomacedonians." Most are integrated fully into society. The Government formally recognizes only the "Muslim minority" specified in the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne (see Section 2.c.), although it stated publicly in 1999 that members of that minority could identify themselves individually as belonging to different ethnic groups. Most of the Muslim minority (officially estimated to number 98,000) are ethnically Turkish or Turcophone and live in Thrace. The Muslim minority also includes Pomaks and Roma. Many Greek Muslims, including Pomaks, identify themselves as Turks and say that the Muslim minority as a whole has a Turkish cultural consciousness. [ See the source ]. -- Olahus ( talk) 17:52, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
I cite from above: "the Aromanians in FYROM and Albania have traditionally self-identified as Greeks". I suggest you to read Thede Kahl's work Ethnizität und räumliche Verteilung der Aromunen in Südeuropa. You will see clearly that the absolute majority of the Aromanians from FYROM and Albania have an own national identity. Most of them regard themselves neither as Greeks, nor as Romanians. They are Aromanians and this is enough. -- Olahus ( talk) 20:14, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
There is no connection between the term "Romioi" and the Aromanians. The Aromians, as well as some other Romace peoples too (Romanians, Reto-Romanians), use an edonym that derived from the term "Romanus". The Greeks call the Aromanians "Βλάχοι", a term borrowed from the Slavic "Vlasi". Indeed, they are parts of Aromanians that have a Greek identity, but this issue is not older than the 18th century, when assimilation efforts were encouraged by the Greek missionary Cosmas of Aetolia (1714-1779) who taught that Aromanians should speak Greek because as he said "it's the language of our Church" and established over 100 Greek schools in northern and western Greece. (see Thede Kahl, Ethnizität und räumliche Verteilung der Aromunen in Südeuropa. Münster, 1999). They are proeminent Aromanians in other European countries too, not just in Greece, see List of Aromanians.-- Olahus ( talk) 12:04, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
The Roma from Greece are in the same characteristics like other ethnic minorities in Greece (Aromanians, Albanians, Slavs): they have a Greek identity:
The Roma of Greece do not have the same characteristics as other groups in Greece. And, by the way, the Aromanians, Arvanites and Slavophones are not considered ethnic minorities, neither by themselves nor by the rest of the Greeks (an ethnic distinction is made in other, non-Greek minds). Firstly, the Roma acknoewledge their non-Greek origins. On the contrary, the Aromanians, etc believe they have Greek ancestry. Secondly, the Roma are viewd as non-Greeks by the Greeks. In the sense that they are Greek citizens with full rights, yet citizenship does not mean ethnos, at least not in Greece... On the contrary, Aromanians, Arvanites, etc, are considered as such ethnic Greek subgroups as Cretans, Tsakonians, Sarakatsans, Cypriots, etc. Thirdly, historically speaking, the Roma were not viewed as ethnic Greeks, neither by themselves, nor the Greeks, nor the foreigners. The Souliotes were considered Greeks by their contemporary Westerners. The Aromanians in 18th-19th century Vienna, were considered Greeks, by the Austro-Hungarian authorities (Tositsas) or in Egypt (e.g. George Averoff. Lastly, as an example, the current President of Greece, Karolos Papoulias, is Aromanian. According to the Greek constitution, the president of the country must be ethnic Greek, Greek Orthodox. If the Aromanians did not consider themselves ethnic Greeks and/or were not considered as such by the rest of the Greeks, it would have become a major issue here. Apropos, the last attempt to draw an ethnic distinction concerning the Aromanians, blatantly failed... This might say something to anyone imagining similar plans and schemes... Hectorian ( talk) 21:23, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
just a question why does this article still have the acronym FYROM as opposed to Republic of Macedonia? most other sources on wikipedia link to ROM not to FYROM P m kocovski ( talk) 12:55, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I thought that in Greece related articles we didn't have to use the name "Republic of Macedonia". I'm not sure though.. - Sthenel ( talk) 16:00, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
It is extremely odd to place the Arvanites at the category of ethnic Greek people since the Arvanites have a language and an ethnic background different from the Greeks. No serious research can confirm the statement of this template. This type of exaggerations is clearly Greek propaganda that should be battled firmly by serious Wikipedia contributors. Let me inform that the article Arvanites is currently hijacked by Greek nationalist users. -- Albanau ( talk) 19:34, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
ok, just realized that contrary to my edit-comment there is actually a grouping for norther eprirotes. however i still think somehow albania (and possibly turkey) should feature up there with greece and cyprus. in fact, either those three or four countries; or just greece alone. am not sure why those two countries only are chosen? Eugene-elgato ( talk) 15:59, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Does this template need dozens of local subgroups which actually lead to articles about regions? This is a template about the Greeks and their subgroups, if a distinct subgroup within the Greek nation exists. Roumeliotes, Thracians, some selected (how?) islanders etc with no respective articles and any distinct identity, are just separated by region making it look like a geographical template. I think this is totally needless. 94.65.54.117 ( talk) 01:38, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
Khirurg, I would appreciate it if you desisted in trying to include the Aromanians in an ethnic Greek template. The Aromanians are not ethnic Greeks. Period. Aromanian is also not a language spoken by ethnic Greeks. Their high degree of cultural assimilation has not made reliable sources classify the Aromanians within Greek subgroups. Super Ψ Dro 10:21, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
Should the Aromanians be included in this template? Super Ψ Dro 17:10, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
So this template is a sidebar on the Greek ethnicity. Greece is a multiethnic country, with several minorities other than ethnic Greeks. Examples include the Aromanians and the Megleno-Romanians (both commonly known in Greece as Vlachs). Here we ought not to confuse terms, as ethnicity (per the Wikipedia article's description, a group of people identifying with each other) is not identical to nation (per the Wikipedia article's description, the collective identity a[n ethnic] group has). An ethnic Aromanian can be part of the Greek nation by virtue of identifying with it, but it also can be part of the Cambodian one this way. Nations do not have much relevance on Wikipedia articles; most of our pages on "peoples" so to call them focus on the ethnic aspect. See countless examples such as Greeks, Romanians, Ukrainians, Russians, Albanians, Turkish people, Latvians, Vietnamese people; all have "ethnic group" at their leads, all have ethnicity-focused categories, and in the articles of their nation states, we often find lists of "ethnic groups", not of "nations" (and there's also this template worth linking, Template:Ethnic groups in Greece, including the Aromanians, even though supposedly according to this template the Aromanians are just ethnic Greeks).
Now, the Greeks article also includes "nation" in the lead, but this is pretty much just decoration. There is no "nation" categories in the article. In addition, nowhere else other than in this template in the whole of Wikipedia is the Aromanian ethnic minority of Greece included as part of the Greek ethnicity. The Aromanians are a Romance stateless scattered ethnic group in the Balkans, and they have adopted lots of identities as they live in many countries none of which is their own, mainly Greek and Romanian but also Albanian, Bulgarian or even Italian (in history). Still, the Aromanians are not included in the sidebars Template:Romanians, Template:Albanians or Template:Bulgarians (nor in the sidebar templates of ethnicities with other states the Aromanians live in: Template:Macedonians (ethnic group) and Template:Serbs); notice as well that a grand total of zero of these templates include ethnic minorities within the titular state of these ethnicities.
So we have two issues with this case:
Common practice is broken, and there is no good reasoning or justification for this. So the Aromanians and their language must be removed from this ethnic Greek template. I will also bring into attention the situation of Slavic speakers within this template, as obviously Slavs are not Greeks, but it is not the focus of this RfC. Super Ψ Dro 17:11, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
a group of people identifying with each other), here is the leading association of the Aromanians/Vlachs of Greece stating that
In August 2003 the Greek Federation of Cultural Associations of Vlachs objected to the direct or indirect characterization of the Vlach-speaking Greeks as an ethnic, linguistic or other type of minority, a position expressed in a subsequent report issued by the American organization Freedom House. The Federation asserted that Vlach-speaking Greeks never asked to be recognized as a minority by the Greek state as both historically and culturally they were, and still are an integral part of Hellenism.[2]. In other words, the Aromanians/Vlachs of Greece identify with other Greeks, thus meeting the definition of being part of the OP's own definition of ethnicity as
a group of people identifying with each other(talk about an own goal). So contra point 1 of the OP, the Aromanians/Vlachs of Greece do not consider themselves a minority and consider themselves an integral part of the Greek people. Obviously, they would very much want to be included in this template and would be offended not to be. Regarding point #2, that can be easily remedied by adding the Aromanians to other templates, it's not a reason to remove them from here. Super Dromaeosaurus, next time do your homework before wasting everyone's time with "a pointless discussion we both know the outcome of". Khirurg ( talk) 18:15, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
the OPs contention that this template is exclusively about "ethnic Greeks" is nothing more than the OP's own opinion, with nothing to substantiate that.have you looked at the categories on this template? Though still, all of these kinds of templates are ethnicity-focused. Common practice must be followed.
While almost every Aromanian considers himself to be Hellene (Ellinas, fem. Ellinida, pl. Ellines) when speaking Greek, he would not consider himself Greek (Grecu, fem. Greacā, pl. Greț) when speaking Aromanian.,
To be a Hellene does not mean automatically to be Greek.,
From the perspective of the Greek Aromanians all monolingual populations which only speak Greek belong to the Greeks (Greț), while the Vlach-, Slav- and Albanian-speaking people can also belong to the Hellenes (Elini, in Greek Ellines)). So not only aren't all Aromanians in Greece assimilated, but those that supposedly are reject this simple "Greek" label. When it is said that most Aromanians in Greece identify with Greece, it doesn't mean they have completely forgotten their language, culture, ethnic self-awareness, no not at all. Kahl anyway argues that most Aromanians are kind of just apathetic to this whole issue (p. 154). I will also remind the case of Sotiris Bletsas, from 2001.
Not only that, but many scholars are of the opinion that they have a Greek originand many other scholars are of the opinion that they are not. This is an unproductive argument and there's no point on elaborating on it.
Now, the rest of the OP's post is a bunch of WP:OR definitions of "ethnicity" and "nation" that he made up himselfno, what I did was use the definitions for these terms that the website we are in uses.
In other words, the Aromanians/Vlachs of Greece identify with other Greeks, thus meeting the definition of being part of the OP's own definition of ethnicity as a group of people identifying with each othernope again. This is the whole definition given by Wikipedia on ethnicity:
An ethnic group or an ethnicity is a grouping of people who identify with each other on the basis of shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups. Those attributes can include common sets of traditions, ancestry, language, history, society, culture, nation, religion, or social treatment within their residing area.Remind me when Greeks start speaking Aromanian.
So contra point 1 of the OP, the Aromanians/Vlachs of Greece do not consider themselves a minority and consider themselves an integral part of the Greek people.I've given evidence above that there are several different standing points within the Aromanian minority in Greece. Proof will be needed to prove what you've said.
Obviously, they would very much want to be included in this template and would be offended not to be.Depends. If we're to include them as nothing but simple ethnic Greeks, just as any other Greek from Athens, Thessaloniki, etc., they might not agree.
Regarding point #2, that can be easily remedied by adding the Aromanians to other templates, it's not a reason to remove them from here.and why should we? Ethnically, Aromanians are not Albanians, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Romanians or Serbs. Nor Greeks. If we included them all into other ethnicities' templates, where exactly are the ethnic Aromanians left? This also creates such an obvious problematic precedent. If we start overlapping ethnicity around, do we start including articles like Greeks in Germany at Template:Germans?
While almost every Aromanian considers himself to be a Hellene. And every single Aromanian in Greece speaks Greek, whereas Aromanian itself is dying, if not dead already (can you even find a current source on the number of speakers?). So not only do we have multiple sources that state they are fully or almost fully assimilated, they themselves consider themselves
an integral part of Hellenism. They have stated so themselves, and they definitely belong in the template. Khirurg ( talk) 21:18, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
So not only do we have multiple sources that state they are fully or almost fully assimilatedno, you have given none.
if not dead already???
can you even find a current source on the number of speakers?50,000 (T. Salminen, 1993. Unesco Red Book Report on Endangered Languages) or 100,000 ( Kahl, 2002) or 200,000 ( Ntasiou, 2017). Speakers by the way not ethnic Aromanians, since Kahl on the same paper estimates there are 300,000 Aromanians in Greece while the Council of Europe gives a figure of 250,000.
You are just making up an arbitrarily narrow category of what "Greek" that suits youyou mean the definition of ethnicity this website uses that I literally just copied and that is applied in the rest of similar templates?
Even the source you provided (the only one)what?
they themselves consider themselves an integral part of Hellenism.you decided to only include the part of the quote that you liked?
They have stated so themselvesyou really did not read page 8 of the source I cited. If you did, you'd find a noteworthy quote.
there is a very important difference between "complete assimilation" and "most are assimilated", and on and on. I even showed you a source that attested that the Vlachs/Aromanians consider themselves
an integral part of Hellenism. But it's very easy to find sources that the Vlachs/Aromanians are assimilated and consider themselves Greek. I'll let them do the talking. What's funny is that a former Romanian president tried to pull the same thing you are trying to pull here, and was told off pretty strongly by the Vlachs of Greece [4]. Khirurg ( talk) 00:30, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
To demonstrate this fact, let me quote Maria K. from Kleisoura. "Of course I am proud to be Vlach, but I am much prouder to be Hellene" were her first comments when speaking about the Vlachs in Greece. Only a few minutes later, when we switched over to Aromanian, she told me about her daughter "You can´t imagine my shock when our daughter wanted to marry a Greek! Who wants to marry their own children to the Greeks?". To be a Hellene does not mean automatically to be Greek. Further problems are provoked if a language is used that does not differentiate between Greek and Hellene.Aromanians in Greece do not simply refer to themselves as Greeks and to show this is an oversimplification of the issue. Super Ψ Dro 11:54, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
all Aromanians in Greece are fully assimilatedfor inclusion. You are moving the goal posts and artificially creating unreasonable standards because this is not going your way. The Aromanians are sufficiently assimilated that inclusion is easily warranted. As for "Hellenism ≠ being Greek", that's just funny. A quote from some villager? Really? That's your "source? "Hey here's some random villager that says Hellenes aren't Greek". You have no idea what you're talking about. Don't expect to be taken seriously around here if you quote stuff like that. WP:CIR after all. Khirurg ( talk) 15:29, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
Now, the Aromanians/Vlachs in Greece are nowadays completely assimilated into the Greek nation. I haven't created any "goal post", this is what you've talking about all the time.
Although Greek Aromanians would differentiate themselves from “Grecο” (Aromanian name for Greek-speaking people) most still consider themselves part of the broader Greek nation.[5] (p. 71);
Obviously "Grets" did not work for him, because in the Vlach language there is a distinction between Vlachs (Armeni) and Greeks (Greek-speaking, Grets)[6] (recommend reading the rest of the page);
Tu Grătsie multsa armânj s-luyursescu elini (nu grets).("In Greece many Aromanians consider themselves Hellenes (not Greeks)", [7] p. 53, Aromanian publication);
multsâ Armânj ditu Gratsie s-luyursescu ti „elini"; „elinu" nu easti idyiul lucru cu „grecu"("Many Aromanians in Greece consider themselves "Hellenes"; "Hellene" is not the same thing as "Greek"", [8], p. 23, another Aromanian publication). It is a fact that these supposedly assimilated Aromanians distinguish between people who only speak Greek in Greece and those who speak their own minority languages. Why should we not make a distinction here?
1.
Vlachs are sometimes assumed to be the Romanized descendants of autochthonous ethnic groups, the Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians and Greeks, though the Greek connection is undoubtedly the strongest. in Vlachs, A Peaceful Balkan People. David Binder. Mediterranean Quarterly, Duke University Press.Volume 15, Number 4, Fall 2004.
2.
The Federation asserted that Vlach-speaking Greeks never asked to be recognized as a minority by the Greek state as both historically and culturally they were, and still are an integral part of Hellenism. in Minority Rights Group International, World Directory of Minorities and Indigenous Peoples - Greece : Vlachs, May 2018.
3.
most Aromanians being fully assimilated into the Greek nation in Local Dimensions of the Second World War in Southeastern Europe. (2019). United Kingdom: Taylor & Francis.
4.
the high level of assimilation of the Aromanians by Greek speaking populations in The Romance Balkans: Collection of Papers Presented at the International Conference The Romance Balkans, 4-6 November 2006. (2008). Serbia: Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts, Institute for Balkan Studies.
5.
Today large Aromanian groups identify with the Greek nation and culture in Ethnologia Balkanica. (n.d.). (n.p.): Waxmann Verlag.
6.
Vlach populations of Greece are well integrated into the Greek national project...Most of their representatives and formal organizations actively deny claims that Aromanian Vlachs constitute a national minroity. in Uneven Citizenship: Minorities and Migrants in the Post-Yugoslav Space. (2017). (n.p.): Taylor & Francis.
In other words, the literature backs the fact that the Aromanians have every reason to be included in the template. Khirurg ( talk) 00:50, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
Many Romanian scholars maintain that the Aromanians were part of a Daco-Romanian migration from the north of the Danube between the 6th and 10th centuries, supporting the theory that the 'Great Romanian' population descend from the ancient Dacians and Romans.So who's right here?
There is no evidence for either theory, and Winnifrith deems them improbable. The little evidence that exists points that the Vlach (Aromanian) homeland was in the Northern Balkans, North of the Jireček Line demarcating the Latin and Greek linguistic influence spheres.Their origin is disputed. It cannot be proven that the Aromanians are of Greek origin, and it cannot be proven that the Aromanians originate from the north either. I could also bring some sources to try and prove how they're actually Romanians, but this is worthless for this argument.
What little evidence there is shows that the original home of the Vlachs was the Northern Balkans.,
but when the Danube frontier broke at the beginning of the seventh century Latin speakers would be pushed or push with the invading Slavs further to the South.( Winnifrith in Clogg, 2002, p. 115) Again, who is right? Super Ψ Dro 12:32, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
no authoritative status. Nah, just the usual word games because WP:JDL. What's an organization with "authoritative status"? What nonsense. Khirurg ( talk) 15:35, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
most Aromanians,
the high level,
Today large Aromanian groups,
Most of their representatives and formal organizations. Nothing about a 100% assimilation of 100% of Aromanians.
is an Aromanian association based in Athens that promotes the revitalization of both Aromanian language and culture.,
seeks, to set new, but solid, foundations to teach this endangered language, redefining Aromanian identityand which organises
an academic conference on Aromanian identity,culture and language. So much for this supposed full complete and absolute assimilation of all Aromanians!
full complete and absolute assimilation of all Aromanians!to be included in the template. You don't make the rules. Khirurg ( talk) 15:38, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
Greece Template‑class | |||||||
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Why would anybody insist on having a red link to a deleted page here? If anybody has concrete plans for recreating it - without falling foul of the prohibition of re-creating content deleted at AfD, i.e. creating something substantially different from the old deleted article - then why should this link be included here? Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to remove the "persecution" section from this template, for the following reasons:
(unindent) Sorry, but you haven't addressed anything of what I wrote. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:39, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
the template has slavika, aromanian, arvantika, meglenitic as "Languages and dialects" is this in reference to GREEKS (in general) , or in reference to the GREEK LANGUAGE???, because if it is in reference to the language than it is incorrect information. P m kocovski ( talk)
The language of the Greeks is Greek. -- Olahus ( talk) 16:59, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Please remain at the exaples from the template. The Aromanians, Arvanites, Karamanlides, Bulgarians/Slavo-Macedonians are NOT ethnic Greeks, but ethnic minorities who live in many countries while Greece is one of those countries. The languages spoken by those populations (Aromanian, Albanian, Turkish, Bulgarian/Slavo-Macedonian) are spoken ONLY by those minority populations, NOT by ethnic Greeks. -- Olahus ( talk) 22:11, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Please keep in mind most articles above have at old times been a subject of extensive debate, and are sourced to exhaustion. Also, this template is NOT for "Ethnic" Greeks, as you call them, but for Greeks in general. Genetics is irrelevant from national consciousness and self-identification according to all scholars. Niko Silver 22:32, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
You just presented examples of typical results of ethnic and inguistic assimilations. If you mean that the template is not about ethnic Greeks, then it should remaned into "Ethnic groups from Greece" and exclude the ethnic Greeks who live outside Greece (the Cypriots too!) and the section "languages and dialects" should be renamed into "languages and dialects spoken in Greece" and exclude the Greek dialects spoken outside Greece. -- Olahus ( talk) 22:54, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
There is a consensus here it Olahus's views are respected and the product of his own research and opinions, but they are not applicable to this article. Please can we get back to the status quo ante. Thanks. Politis ( talk) 18:43, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Olahus, your arguments are not only specious, they're also extremely offensive to the hundreds of thousands of Greeks who are proud of their distinctive cultural and linguistic heritage. To say that they are not Arvanites or Vlachs "any more" is not only wrong, it is the height of arrogance. Who are you to tell them what they are and what they are not? · ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 08:51, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Politis, if you say that there is a concensus, show me please a link to it. However, read please this text:
Significant numbers of Greek citizens identify themselves as Turks, Pomaks, Vlachs, Roma, Arvanites (Orthodox Christians who speak a dialect of Albanian), or "Macedonians" or "Slavomacedonians." Most are integrated fully into society. The Government formally recognizes only the "Muslim minority" specified in the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne (see Section 2.c.), although it stated publicly in 1999 that members of that minority could identify themselves individually as belonging to different ethnic groups. Most of the Muslim minority (officially estimated to number 98,000) are ethnically Turkish or Turcophone and live in Thrace. The Muslim minority also includes Pomaks and Roma. Many Greek Muslims, including Pomaks, identify themselves as Turks and say that the Muslim minority as a whole has a Turkish cultural consciousness. [ See the source ]. -- Olahus ( talk) 17:52, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
I cite from above: "the Aromanians in FYROM and Albania have traditionally self-identified as Greeks". I suggest you to read Thede Kahl's work Ethnizität und räumliche Verteilung der Aromunen in Südeuropa. You will see clearly that the absolute majority of the Aromanians from FYROM and Albania have an own national identity. Most of them regard themselves neither as Greeks, nor as Romanians. They are Aromanians and this is enough. -- Olahus ( talk) 20:14, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
There is no connection between the term "Romioi" and the Aromanians. The Aromians, as well as some other Romace peoples too (Romanians, Reto-Romanians), use an edonym that derived from the term "Romanus". The Greeks call the Aromanians "Βλάχοι", a term borrowed from the Slavic "Vlasi". Indeed, they are parts of Aromanians that have a Greek identity, but this issue is not older than the 18th century, when assimilation efforts were encouraged by the Greek missionary Cosmas of Aetolia (1714-1779) who taught that Aromanians should speak Greek because as he said "it's the language of our Church" and established over 100 Greek schools in northern and western Greece. (see Thede Kahl, Ethnizität und räumliche Verteilung der Aromunen in Südeuropa. Münster, 1999). They are proeminent Aromanians in other European countries too, not just in Greece, see List of Aromanians.-- Olahus ( talk) 12:04, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
The Roma from Greece are in the same characteristics like other ethnic minorities in Greece (Aromanians, Albanians, Slavs): they have a Greek identity:
The Roma of Greece do not have the same characteristics as other groups in Greece. And, by the way, the Aromanians, Arvanites and Slavophones are not considered ethnic minorities, neither by themselves nor by the rest of the Greeks (an ethnic distinction is made in other, non-Greek minds). Firstly, the Roma acknoewledge their non-Greek origins. On the contrary, the Aromanians, etc believe they have Greek ancestry. Secondly, the Roma are viewd as non-Greeks by the Greeks. In the sense that they are Greek citizens with full rights, yet citizenship does not mean ethnos, at least not in Greece... On the contrary, Aromanians, Arvanites, etc, are considered as such ethnic Greek subgroups as Cretans, Tsakonians, Sarakatsans, Cypriots, etc. Thirdly, historically speaking, the Roma were not viewed as ethnic Greeks, neither by themselves, nor the Greeks, nor the foreigners. The Souliotes were considered Greeks by their contemporary Westerners. The Aromanians in 18th-19th century Vienna, were considered Greeks, by the Austro-Hungarian authorities (Tositsas) or in Egypt (e.g. George Averoff. Lastly, as an example, the current President of Greece, Karolos Papoulias, is Aromanian. According to the Greek constitution, the president of the country must be ethnic Greek, Greek Orthodox. If the Aromanians did not consider themselves ethnic Greeks and/or were not considered as such by the rest of the Greeks, it would have become a major issue here. Apropos, the last attempt to draw an ethnic distinction concerning the Aromanians, blatantly failed... This might say something to anyone imagining similar plans and schemes... Hectorian ( talk) 21:23, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
just a question why does this article still have the acronym FYROM as opposed to Republic of Macedonia? most other sources on wikipedia link to ROM not to FYROM P m kocovski ( talk) 12:55, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I thought that in Greece related articles we didn't have to use the name "Republic of Macedonia". I'm not sure though.. - Sthenel ( talk) 16:00, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
It is extremely odd to place the Arvanites at the category of ethnic Greek people since the Arvanites have a language and an ethnic background different from the Greeks. No serious research can confirm the statement of this template. This type of exaggerations is clearly Greek propaganda that should be battled firmly by serious Wikipedia contributors. Let me inform that the article Arvanites is currently hijacked by Greek nationalist users. -- Albanau ( talk) 19:34, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
ok, just realized that contrary to my edit-comment there is actually a grouping for norther eprirotes. however i still think somehow albania (and possibly turkey) should feature up there with greece and cyprus. in fact, either those three or four countries; or just greece alone. am not sure why those two countries only are chosen? Eugene-elgato ( talk) 15:59, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Does this template need dozens of local subgroups which actually lead to articles about regions? This is a template about the Greeks and their subgroups, if a distinct subgroup within the Greek nation exists. Roumeliotes, Thracians, some selected (how?) islanders etc with no respective articles and any distinct identity, are just separated by region making it look like a geographical template. I think this is totally needless. 94.65.54.117 ( talk) 01:38, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
Khirurg, I would appreciate it if you desisted in trying to include the Aromanians in an ethnic Greek template. The Aromanians are not ethnic Greeks. Period. Aromanian is also not a language spoken by ethnic Greeks. Their high degree of cultural assimilation has not made reliable sources classify the Aromanians within Greek subgroups. Super Ψ Dro 10:21, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
Should the Aromanians be included in this template? Super Ψ Dro 17:10, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
So this template is a sidebar on the Greek ethnicity. Greece is a multiethnic country, with several minorities other than ethnic Greeks. Examples include the Aromanians and the Megleno-Romanians (both commonly known in Greece as Vlachs). Here we ought not to confuse terms, as ethnicity (per the Wikipedia article's description, a group of people identifying with each other) is not identical to nation (per the Wikipedia article's description, the collective identity a[n ethnic] group has). An ethnic Aromanian can be part of the Greek nation by virtue of identifying with it, but it also can be part of the Cambodian one this way. Nations do not have much relevance on Wikipedia articles; most of our pages on "peoples" so to call them focus on the ethnic aspect. See countless examples such as Greeks, Romanians, Ukrainians, Russians, Albanians, Turkish people, Latvians, Vietnamese people; all have "ethnic group" at their leads, all have ethnicity-focused categories, and in the articles of their nation states, we often find lists of "ethnic groups", not of "nations" (and there's also this template worth linking, Template:Ethnic groups in Greece, including the Aromanians, even though supposedly according to this template the Aromanians are just ethnic Greeks).
Now, the Greeks article also includes "nation" in the lead, but this is pretty much just decoration. There is no "nation" categories in the article. In addition, nowhere else other than in this template in the whole of Wikipedia is the Aromanian ethnic minority of Greece included as part of the Greek ethnicity. The Aromanians are a Romance stateless scattered ethnic group in the Balkans, and they have adopted lots of identities as they live in many countries none of which is their own, mainly Greek and Romanian but also Albanian, Bulgarian or even Italian (in history). Still, the Aromanians are not included in the sidebars Template:Romanians, Template:Albanians or Template:Bulgarians (nor in the sidebar templates of ethnicities with other states the Aromanians live in: Template:Macedonians (ethnic group) and Template:Serbs); notice as well that a grand total of zero of these templates include ethnic minorities within the titular state of these ethnicities.
So we have two issues with this case:
Common practice is broken, and there is no good reasoning or justification for this. So the Aromanians and their language must be removed from this ethnic Greek template. I will also bring into attention the situation of Slavic speakers within this template, as obviously Slavs are not Greeks, but it is not the focus of this RfC. Super Ψ Dro 17:11, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
a group of people identifying with each other), here is the leading association of the Aromanians/Vlachs of Greece stating that
In August 2003 the Greek Federation of Cultural Associations of Vlachs objected to the direct or indirect characterization of the Vlach-speaking Greeks as an ethnic, linguistic or other type of minority, a position expressed in a subsequent report issued by the American organization Freedom House. The Federation asserted that Vlach-speaking Greeks never asked to be recognized as a minority by the Greek state as both historically and culturally they were, and still are an integral part of Hellenism.[2]. In other words, the Aromanians/Vlachs of Greece identify with other Greeks, thus meeting the definition of being part of the OP's own definition of ethnicity as
a group of people identifying with each other(talk about an own goal). So contra point 1 of the OP, the Aromanians/Vlachs of Greece do not consider themselves a minority and consider themselves an integral part of the Greek people. Obviously, they would very much want to be included in this template and would be offended not to be. Regarding point #2, that can be easily remedied by adding the Aromanians to other templates, it's not a reason to remove them from here. Super Dromaeosaurus, next time do your homework before wasting everyone's time with "a pointless discussion we both know the outcome of". Khirurg ( talk) 18:15, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
the OPs contention that this template is exclusively about "ethnic Greeks" is nothing more than the OP's own opinion, with nothing to substantiate that.have you looked at the categories on this template? Though still, all of these kinds of templates are ethnicity-focused. Common practice must be followed.
While almost every Aromanian considers himself to be Hellene (Ellinas, fem. Ellinida, pl. Ellines) when speaking Greek, he would not consider himself Greek (Grecu, fem. Greacā, pl. Greț) when speaking Aromanian.,
To be a Hellene does not mean automatically to be Greek.,
From the perspective of the Greek Aromanians all monolingual populations which only speak Greek belong to the Greeks (Greț), while the Vlach-, Slav- and Albanian-speaking people can also belong to the Hellenes (Elini, in Greek Ellines)). So not only aren't all Aromanians in Greece assimilated, but those that supposedly are reject this simple "Greek" label. When it is said that most Aromanians in Greece identify with Greece, it doesn't mean they have completely forgotten their language, culture, ethnic self-awareness, no not at all. Kahl anyway argues that most Aromanians are kind of just apathetic to this whole issue (p. 154). I will also remind the case of Sotiris Bletsas, from 2001.
Not only that, but many scholars are of the opinion that they have a Greek originand many other scholars are of the opinion that they are not. This is an unproductive argument and there's no point on elaborating on it.
Now, the rest of the OP's post is a bunch of WP:OR definitions of "ethnicity" and "nation" that he made up himselfno, what I did was use the definitions for these terms that the website we are in uses.
In other words, the Aromanians/Vlachs of Greece identify with other Greeks, thus meeting the definition of being part of the OP's own definition of ethnicity as a group of people identifying with each othernope again. This is the whole definition given by Wikipedia on ethnicity:
An ethnic group or an ethnicity is a grouping of people who identify with each other on the basis of shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups. Those attributes can include common sets of traditions, ancestry, language, history, society, culture, nation, religion, or social treatment within their residing area.Remind me when Greeks start speaking Aromanian.
So contra point 1 of the OP, the Aromanians/Vlachs of Greece do not consider themselves a minority and consider themselves an integral part of the Greek people.I've given evidence above that there are several different standing points within the Aromanian minority in Greece. Proof will be needed to prove what you've said.
Obviously, they would very much want to be included in this template and would be offended not to be.Depends. If we're to include them as nothing but simple ethnic Greeks, just as any other Greek from Athens, Thessaloniki, etc., they might not agree.
Regarding point #2, that can be easily remedied by adding the Aromanians to other templates, it's not a reason to remove them from here.and why should we? Ethnically, Aromanians are not Albanians, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Romanians or Serbs. Nor Greeks. If we included them all into other ethnicities' templates, where exactly are the ethnic Aromanians left? This also creates such an obvious problematic precedent. If we start overlapping ethnicity around, do we start including articles like Greeks in Germany at Template:Germans?
While almost every Aromanian considers himself to be a Hellene. And every single Aromanian in Greece speaks Greek, whereas Aromanian itself is dying, if not dead already (can you even find a current source on the number of speakers?). So not only do we have multiple sources that state they are fully or almost fully assimilated, they themselves consider themselves
an integral part of Hellenism. They have stated so themselves, and they definitely belong in the template. Khirurg ( talk) 21:18, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
So not only do we have multiple sources that state they are fully or almost fully assimilatedno, you have given none.
if not dead already???
can you even find a current source on the number of speakers?50,000 (T. Salminen, 1993. Unesco Red Book Report on Endangered Languages) or 100,000 ( Kahl, 2002) or 200,000 ( Ntasiou, 2017). Speakers by the way not ethnic Aromanians, since Kahl on the same paper estimates there are 300,000 Aromanians in Greece while the Council of Europe gives a figure of 250,000.
You are just making up an arbitrarily narrow category of what "Greek" that suits youyou mean the definition of ethnicity this website uses that I literally just copied and that is applied in the rest of similar templates?
Even the source you provided (the only one)what?
they themselves consider themselves an integral part of Hellenism.you decided to only include the part of the quote that you liked?
They have stated so themselvesyou really did not read page 8 of the source I cited. If you did, you'd find a noteworthy quote.
there is a very important difference between "complete assimilation" and "most are assimilated", and on and on. I even showed you a source that attested that the Vlachs/Aromanians consider themselves
an integral part of Hellenism. But it's very easy to find sources that the Vlachs/Aromanians are assimilated and consider themselves Greek. I'll let them do the talking. What's funny is that a former Romanian president tried to pull the same thing you are trying to pull here, and was told off pretty strongly by the Vlachs of Greece [4]. Khirurg ( talk) 00:30, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
To demonstrate this fact, let me quote Maria K. from Kleisoura. "Of course I am proud to be Vlach, but I am much prouder to be Hellene" were her first comments when speaking about the Vlachs in Greece. Only a few minutes later, when we switched over to Aromanian, she told me about her daughter "You can´t imagine my shock when our daughter wanted to marry a Greek! Who wants to marry their own children to the Greeks?". To be a Hellene does not mean automatically to be Greek. Further problems are provoked if a language is used that does not differentiate between Greek and Hellene.Aromanians in Greece do not simply refer to themselves as Greeks and to show this is an oversimplification of the issue. Super Ψ Dro 11:54, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
all Aromanians in Greece are fully assimilatedfor inclusion. You are moving the goal posts and artificially creating unreasonable standards because this is not going your way. The Aromanians are sufficiently assimilated that inclusion is easily warranted. As for "Hellenism ≠ being Greek", that's just funny. A quote from some villager? Really? That's your "source? "Hey here's some random villager that says Hellenes aren't Greek". You have no idea what you're talking about. Don't expect to be taken seriously around here if you quote stuff like that. WP:CIR after all. Khirurg ( talk) 15:29, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
Now, the Aromanians/Vlachs in Greece are nowadays completely assimilated into the Greek nation. I haven't created any "goal post", this is what you've talking about all the time.
Although Greek Aromanians would differentiate themselves from “Grecο” (Aromanian name for Greek-speaking people) most still consider themselves part of the broader Greek nation.[5] (p. 71);
Obviously "Grets" did not work for him, because in the Vlach language there is a distinction between Vlachs (Armeni) and Greeks (Greek-speaking, Grets)[6] (recommend reading the rest of the page);
Tu Grătsie multsa armânj s-luyursescu elini (nu grets).("In Greece many Aromanians consider themselves Hellenes (not Greeks)", [7] p. 53, Aromanian publication);
multsâ Armânj ditu Gratsie s-luyursescu ti „elini"; „elinu" nu easti idyiul lucru cu „grecu"("Many Aromanians in Greece consider themselves "Hellenes"; "Hellene" is not the same thing as "Greek"", [8], p. 23, another Aromanian publication). It is a fact that these supposedly assimilated Aromanians distinguish between people who only speak Greek in Greece and those who speak their own minority languages. Why should we not make a distinction here?
1.
Vlachs are sometimes assumed to be the Romanized descendants of autochthonous ethnic groups, the Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians and Greeks, though the Greek connection is undoubtedly the strongest. in Vlachs, A Peaceful Balkan People. David Binder. Mediterranean Quarterly, Duke University Press.Volume 15, Number 4, Fall 2004.
2.
The Federation asserted that Vlach-speaking Greeks never asked to be recognized as a minority by the Greek state as both historically and culturally they were, and still are an integral part of Hellenism. in Minority Rights Group International, World Directory of Minorities and Indigenous Peoples - Greece : Vlachs, May 2018.
3.
most Aromanians being fully assimilated into the Greek nation in Local Dimensions of the Second World War in Southeastern Europe. (2019). United Kingdom: Taylor & Francis.
4.
the high level of assimilation of the Aromanians by Greek speaking populations in The Romance Balkans: Collection of Papers Presented at the International Conference The Romance Balkans, 4-6 November 2006. (2008). Serbia: Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts, Institute for Balkan Studies.
5.
Today large Aromanian groups identify with the Greek nation and culture in Ethnologia Balkanica. (n.d.). (n.p.): Waxmann Verlag.
6.
Vlach populations of Greece are well integrated into the Greek national project...Most of their representatives and formal organizations actively deny claims that Aromanian Vlachs constitute a national minroity. in Uneven Citizenship: Minorities and Migrants in the Post-Yugoslav Space. (2017). (n.p.): Taylor & Francis.
In other words, the literature backs the fact that the Aromanians have every reason to be included in the template. Khirurg ( talk) 00:50, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
Many Romanian scholars maintain that the Aromanians were part of a Daco-Romanian migration from the north of the Danube between the 6th and 10th centuries, supporting the theory that the 'Great Romanian' population descend from the ancient Dacians and Romans.So who's right here?
There is no evidence for either theory, and Winnifrith deems them improbable. The little evidence that exists points that the Vlach (Aromanian) homeland was in the Northern Balkans, North of the Jireček Line demarcating the Latin and Greek linguistic influence spheres.Their origin is disputed. It cannot be proven that the Aromanians are of Greek origin, and it cannot be proven that the Aromanians originate from the north either. I could also bring some sources to try and prove how they're actually Romanians, but this is worthless for this argument.
What little evidence there is shows that the original home of the Vlachs was the Northern Balkans.,
but when the Danube frontier broke at the beginning of the seventh century Latin speakers would be pushed or push with the invading Slavs further to the South.( Winnifrith in Clogg, 2002, p. 115) Again, who is right? Super Ψ Dro 12:32, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
no authoritative status. Nah, just the usual word games because WP:JDL. What's an organization with "authoritative status"? What nonsense. Khirurg ( talk) 15:35, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
most Aromanians,
the high level,
Today large Aromanian groups,
Most of their representatives and formal organizations. Nothing about a 100% assimilation of 100% of Aromanians.
is an Aromanian association based in Athens that promotes the revitalization of both Aromanian language and culture.,
seeks, to set new, but solid, foundations to teach this endangered language, redefining Aromanian identityand which organises
an academic conference on Aromanian identity,culture and language. So much for this supposed full complete and absolute assimilation of all Aromanians!
full complete and absolute assimilation of all Aromanians!to be included in the template. You don't make the rules. Khirurg ( talk) 15:38, 9 December 2022 (UTC)