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The current state of the Template:Genocide sidebar is excessively egregious, it omits mention of numerous genocides significant in number and notoriety to a mere 'footnote' at the bottom of the page questioning the veracity of its genocidal nature (Holodomor). Naturally, as POV pushing has assumed high priority and Soviet genocides have been relegated to the 'dust bins of history', those genocides that are arguably less well known, more questionable as genocides and less significant in number still keep a key position on the sidebar. For example how is it that Nazi Crimes Against the Polish Nation committed during the context of war, outmanoeuvres the inclusion of the ethnic cleansing of Poles in the Soviet Union during a time of peace and for no reasons other than to remove them. How is it that the Cambodian Genocide orchestrated by Paul Pot who belonged to the same nation he exterminated is kept in the genocide sidebar but the Holodomor is left only to a brief mention literally at the bottom of the page, and instead of a link to the genocide itself a slap in the face to the victims by a link only to the 'question' of whether it occurred. These brutal and arguably far more genocidal events cannot be outcasted while population transfers and ancient crusades are kept. The version I motion and hope to restore had provenance of months and its 1,039 characters removed in an edit in May of 2020 with a referral to 'per discussion at Template talk:Genocide'. There was no discussion, at least not a bilateral one, according to the Oxford Dictionary, a discussion connotes a verbal transaction between two or more people, this did not occur and hence WP:CONACHIEVE was not achieved. Η γνώση είναι δύναμη123 ( talk) 15:01, 7 March 2021 (UTC) Η γνώση είναι δύναμη123
On the 9th of May 2020, an edit was made to remove the entire section of Soviet Genocide from the Template:Genocide sidebar this was done without any consensus and removed a sizeable portion of a version that had been been there for dozens of months. In the Soviet Union, there was the strategic elimination and removal of Polish, Greek and Latvian communities through violence, the Holodomor was conducted by forced grain requisition squads whilst the Potato Famine happened because the infection of potatos. No country recognises the Irish Potato Famine as a genocide, numerous countries especially within the EU recognise the suffering of the Polish, Latvian and Greek communities of the USSR and more than 15 including the majority of Western democracies consider the Holodomor as a genocide, unbelievably some countries included in the current version of this sidebar are recognised by one state as a genocide. These deserve to be mentioned and were mentioned for many months before being removed in an edit without consensus. I hope to return the page to the version made before the edit of the 9th of May 2020, in a diplomatic way and look forward to working in a proactive way with those concerned. Η γνώση είναι δύναμη123 ( talk) 14:54, 9 March 2021 (UTC) Η γνώση είναι δύναμη123
( t · c) buidhe 17:39, 9 March 2021 (UTC)Stalin’s intentions and actions during the Ukrainian famine, no matter what sensationalist claims are made by nationalists and anti-Communists, were not the extermination of the Ukrainian people but were related perversely to the collectivization campaign, the destruction of any form of resistance to the dictates of the ruling party, and the absurdly high targets for requisitioning grain. Incompetence and callousness were as much culprits as fear of potential resistance, anger at the failure to deliver grain, and deep-seated hostility toward peasants and nationalists.5 Like the Irish Famine of 1845–1852, the Bengal Famine of 1943, and the Chinese Famine of 1958–1961, so in Ukraine the government was culpable in the deaths of millions. [1]
I agree with VM. I think at the very least Holodomor and Uyghur genocide being restored as genocides on the sidebar since they are definitely large scale enough. Oranjelo100 ( talk) 15:31, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
What would be useful is taking out some general books about genocide, and seeing which events are commonly and consistently described as genocide which would then have due weight for inclusion in a template which is supposed to be about genocide generally, and can't possibly include every event that someone has called a genocide. One review of six such books (10.1017/S004388710002089X) even has a handy table which could serve as a starting point. The Holodomor is indeed commonly described as a genocide but not consistently as such, since there is considerable academic disagreement that it is in fact a genocide. I find your misrepresentations of my position to be laughable and not worth replying to. ( t · c) buidhe 00:48, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
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If what happens to the Uyghurs is qualified as genocide, then the "atrocities" during the Congo Free State surely need to be classified as genocide in this table listing genocides, it is certainly much more appropriate to this case than to the policy of internment and political indoctrination that the Uyghur population is subjected to, whose qualification as "genocide" is debatable. 176.139.81.223 ( talk) 17:39, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Currently, this template lists Gukurahundi as a genocide. However, the edit that included it [1] justified it by pointing out that the article itself calls it a genocide. However, the only citation provided for this claim in the article was to a Guardian article which actually doesn't include the claim of genocide! [2] [3] The citation was incorrect, and so the article (and therefore this template) has been calling it a genocide potentially erroneously. Either someone with more knowledge of the history should find an actual citation for this claim and add it into the Gukurahundi article, or someone with edit access to this template should remove this event from the it. 86.130.142.238 ( talk) 00:41, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
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Right under related topics, add Japanese war crimes. It is listed in genocides through history and is often called one. 2600:1700:C0:2680:18AD:4013:4FCE:5CF4 ( talk) 05:54, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
Should we add the Kazakh Genocide in the WW2 Section? Dunutubble ( talk) 19:23, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
Can I add the Pogrom of Sikhs that occured in India during 1984? See here: 1984 Anti-Sikh riots. Dunutubble ( talk) 20:49, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
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Anti-communist genocides by right-wing paramilitaries, militias, and death squads ought also to be listed, such as the Indonesian mass killings of 1965–66. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZvZisTrash ( talk • contribs) 13:01, August 11, 2021 (UTC)
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The view that the alleged civil rights abuses of Uyghur people in Xinjiang by the Chinese government constitute genocide is without international consensus and should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.48.126 ( talk) 23:54, August 15, 2021 (UTC)
{{
edit extended-protected}}
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Sirdog9002 (
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I've been wondering, since the genocides in this category overlap with both "Cold War" and "Contemporary ethno-religious genocides," should the African genocides be merged into these respective categories? Maybe with pre-1990s genocides being placed under "Cold War," and 1990s-onward being included as "contemporary." I know, for instance, that plenty of folks consider Rwanda and Darfur as examples of modern-day genocides, so I think it would still make sense to include them there. DJ (XTheBedrockX) ( talk) 06:13, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
I believe that the Bengal famine of 1943 has enough proof to back it being (potentially) a genocide. Since the Holodomor is allowed on this template, I think it right to have the Bengal famine of 1943/genocide question too under the Related Topics section. Piotr Heat ( talk) 17:58, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
Removed:
@ Buidhe: Something like the current material in G.a.P. might better start as an entry in List of genocides (where other editors would want better sourcing than a few pundits) and a section in Israel and apartheid (which is less a neologism and already mentions some of the discussions of how apartheid can relate to cultural genocide). – SJ + 23:18, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
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Adding the article "Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the Russian invasion of Ukraine" to the "Related Topics" section. RadioactiveRadiant ( talk) 21:05, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Genocide sidebar template. |
|
Archives: 1 |
This template does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The current state of the Template:Genocide sidebar is excessively egregious, it omits mention of numerous genocides significant in number and notoriety to a mere 'footnote' at the bottom of the page questioning the veracity of its genocidal nature (Holodomor). Naturally, as POV pushing has assumed high priority and Soviet genocides have been relegated to the 'dust bins of history', those genocides that are arguably less well known, more questionable as genocides and less significant in number still keep a key position on the sidebar. For example how is it that Nazi Crimes Against the Polish Nation committed during the context of war, outmanoeuvres the inclusion of the ethnic cleansing of Poles in the Soviet Union during a time of peace and for no reasons other than to remove them. How is it that the Cambodian Genocide orchestrated by Paul Pot who belonged to the same nation he exterminated is kept in the genocide sidebar but the Holodomor is left only to a brief mention literally at the bottom of the page, and instead of a link to the genocide itself a slap in the face to the victims by a link only to the 'question' of whether it occurred. These brutal and arguably far more genocidal events cannot be outcasted while population transfers and ancient crusades are kept. The version I motion and hope to restore had provenance of months and its 1,039 characters removed in an edit in May of 2020 with a referral to 'per discussion at Template talk:Genocide'. There was no discussion, at least not a bilateral one, according to the Oxford Dictionary, a discussion connotes a verbal transaction between two or more people, this did not occur and hence WP:CONACHIEVE was not achieved. Η γνώση είναι δύναμη123 ( talk) 15:01, 7 March 2021 (UTC) Η γνώση είναι δύναμη123
On the 9th of May 2020, an edit was made to remove the entire section of Soviet Genocide from the Template:Genocide sidebar this was done without any consensus and removed a sizeable portion of a version that had been been there for dozens of months. In the Soviet Union, there was the strategic elimination and removal of Polish, Greek and Latvian communities through violence, the Holodomor was conducted by forced grain requisition squads whilst the Potato Famine happened because the infection of potatos. No country recognises the Irish Potato Famine as a genocide, numerous countries especially within the EU recognise the suffering of the Polish, Latvian and Greek communities of the USSR and more than 15 including the majority of Western democracies consider the Holodomor as a genocide, unbelievably some countries included in the current version of this sidebar are recognised by one state as a genocide. These deserve to be mentioned and were mentioned for many months before being removed in an edit without consensus. I hope to return the page to the version made before the edit of the 9th of May 2020, in a diplomatic way and look forward to working in a proactive way with those concerned. Η γνώση είναι δύναμη123 ( talk) 14:54, 9 March 2021 (UTC) Η γνώση είναι δύναμη123
( t · c) buidhe 17:39, 9 March 2021 (UTC)Stalin’s intentions and actions during the Ukrainian famine, no matter what sensationalist claims are made by nationalists and anti-Communists, were not the extermination of the Ukrainian people but were related perversely to the collectivization campaign, the destruction of any form of resistance to the dictates of the ruling party, and the absurdly high targets for requisitioning grain. Incompetence and callousness were as much culprits as fear of potential resistance, anger at the failure to deliver grain, and deep-seated hostility toward peasants and nationalists.5 Like the Irish Famine of 1845–1852, the Bengal Famine of 1943, and the Chinese Famine of 1958–1961, so in Ukraine the government was culpable in the deaths of millions. [1]
I agree with VM. I think at the very least Holodomor and Uyghur genocide being restored as genocides on the sidebar since they are definitely large scale enough. Oranjelo100 ( talk) 15:31, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
What would be useful is taking out some general books about genocide, and seeing which events are commonly and consistently described as genocide which would then have due weight for inclusion in a template which is supposed to be about genocide generally, and can't possibly include every event that someone has called a genocide. One review of six such books (10.1017/S004388710002089X) even has a handy table which could serve as a starting point. The Holodomor is indeed commonly described as a genocide but not consistently as such, since there is considerable academic disagreement that it is in fact a genocide. I find your misrepresentations of my position to be laughable and not worth replying to. ( t · c) buidhe 00:48, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
References
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cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |lay-url=
ignored (
help)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
If what happens to the Uyghurs is qualified as genocide, then the "atrocities" during the Congo Free State surely need to be classified as genocide in this table listing genocides, it is certainly much more appropriate to this case than to the policy of internment and political indoctrination that the Uyghur population is subjected to, whose qualification as "genocide" is debatable. 176.139.81.223 ( talk) 17:39, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Currently, this template lists Gukurahundi as a genocide. However, the edit that included it [1] justified it by pointing out that the article itself calls it a genocide. However, the only citation provided for this claim in the article was to a Guardian article which actually doesn't include the claim of genocide! [2] [3] The citation was incorrect, and so the article (and therefore this template) has been calling it a genocide potentially erroneously. Either someone with more knowledge of the history should find an actual citation for this claim and add it into the Gukurahundi article, or someone with edit access to this template should remove this event from the it. 86.130.142.238 ( talk) 00:41, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Right under related topics, add Japanese war crimes. It is listed in genocides through history and is often called one. 2600:1700:C0:2680:18AD:4013:4FCE:5CF4 ( talk) 05:54, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
Should we add the Kazakh Genocide in the WW2 Section? Dunutubble ( talk) 19:23, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
Can I add the Pogrom of Sikhs that occured in India during 1984? See here: 1984 Anti-Sikh riots. Dunutubble ( talk) 20:49, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Template talk:Genocide sidebar has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Anti-communist genocides by right-wing paramilitaries, militias, and death squads ought also to be listed, such as the Indonesian mass killings of 1965–66. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZvZisTrash ( talk • contribs) 13:01, August 11, 2021 (UTC)
{{
edit extended-protected}}
template. —
Sirdog9002 (
talk) 04:17, 16 August 2021 (UTC)This
edit request to
Template talk:Genocide sidebar has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The view that the alleged civil rights abuses of Uyghur people in Xinjiang by the Chinese government constitute genocide is without international consensus and should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.48.126 ( talk) 23:54, August 15, 2021 (UTC)
{{
edit extended-protected}}
template. —
Sirdog9002 (
talk) 04:14, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
I've been wondering, since the genocides in this category overlap with both "Cold War" and "Contemporary ethno-religious genocides," should the African genocides be merged into these respective categories? Maybe with pre-1990s genocides being placed under "Cold War," and 1990s-onward being included as "contemporary." I know, for instance, that plenty of folks consider Rwanda and Darfur as examples of modern-day genocides, so I think it would still make sense to include them there. DJ (XTheBedrockX) ( talk) 06:13, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
I believe that the Bengal famine of 1943 has enough proof to back it being (potentially) a genocide. Since the Holodomor is allowed on this template, I think it right to have the Bengal famine of 1943/genocide question too under the Related Topics section. Piotr Heat ( talk) 17:58, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
Removed:
@ Buidhe: Something like the current material in G.a.P. might better start as an entry in List of genocides (where other editors would want better sourcing than a few pundits) and a section in Israel and apartheid (which is less a neologism and already mentions some of the discussions of how apartheid can relate to cultural genocide). – SJ + 23:18, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Adding the article "Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the Russian invasion of Ukraine" to the "Related Topics" section. RadioactiveRadiant ( talk) 21:05, 10 February 2024 (UTC)