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Characters and names in the Quran template. |
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I wanted to tag this template for deletion. Out of courtesy, I thought we could discuss first. I am not willing to argue about whether someone/something in mentioned in the Quran or not. My concern is that templates, according to our guidelines, should not do the work of article content, this is mentioned in Wikipedia:Template_namespace#Usage line 14 and 15. The list of people/things mentioned in the Quran can be found in page List of people mentioned by name in the Quran, we may claim that 'others' are 'implicitly' mentioned in the Quran, but that needs citation and needs to be in the article space not template space. Our previous template Template:Quranic people( [1]) was okay, why was it redirected to this problematic template? Kiatdd ( talk) 18:16, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
I notice a couple of "implicitly mentioned" sections. That seems rather subjective. With Jeremiah, for example, the article says " "Jeremiah is not mentioned in the Qur'an, but Muslim exegesis and literature narrates many instances from the life of Jeremiah and tradition fleshes out his narrative." That sounds like he shouldn't be included in this template. And it is already very large. I propose that we remove all the implicit mentions. St Anselm ( talk) 12:38, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
Since Lamech (father of Nuh) doesn't exist, why not use Lamech (father of Noah)? Debresser ( talk) 18:09, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
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title = Islamic topics
Basispa ( talk) 16:47, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
This
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Please change the title into "Islamic topics".
Mrelazar ( talk) 15:36, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
Not done there are numerous templates, referring to dozens more "Islamic topics", this template just covers "Characters and names in the Quran" - Arjayay ( talk) 15:56, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that in Islam there is not such thing as "before Islam" since Islam for humanity started during the creation of Adam, onward to that of all the prophets all the way to the prophet Muhammad and is still present today. So please either remove "before Islam" or change it to "before Muhammad", thank you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.230.184.59 ( talk • contribs)
The template needs to be reorganised to make it more like the main article, but I am not yet finished adding references to it. Leo1pard ( talk) 05:27, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
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The word fig in Arabic is misspelled as ṭīn (clay) instead of tīn (fig) - no diacritic under t. Gardenofhazard ( talk) 01:32, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
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The template suffers from inconsistent romanization of names, particularly in the long vowels. There are several ways of writing a long a, i or u in Arabic (á,í,ú is the rarest, â,î,û is less common and ā,ī,ū is the most common).
The template both circumflex (â) and macron (ā) when it should probably stick to one convention (macron is the more common one).
The examples are too numerous to list - nūn, fīl, Idrīs, etc. use macron, but then Luqmân, Jâlût, Azîz, use circumflex.
Then there are cases where there is no marking whatsoever, neither for vowel length nor consonant quality.
Noah is once Nūḥ and three other times Nuh. Ya’jūj wa Ma’jūj vs Ya'juj and Ma'juj Muḥammad vs Muhammad ‘Imrān vs Imran Ayyūb vs Ayyub Ilyās vs Ilyas Qabil... clicking takes you to Qābīl. Is-ḥāq - no need for hyphen.
There might be a few more. Gardenofhazard ( talk) 06:20, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
It is not like this is confined to me, there are plenty of online sources like this to back up what I said about pronunciation. Leo1pard ( talk) 16:10, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
Tīn (Ar.) is the common fig (ficus carica) and, after Lane, the tree of the balas; or, the tree and the fruit itself.
tīn fig In this book, we are not concerned about this fruit!
tīn, "fig" (North Sem.)
It takes its name from the noun, at-tīn (the fig) in the first verse.
There seem to be some confusions among the supernatural creatures in Quran. The Quran uses them often different than in later Islamic mythology. And modern scholarship differs from Classical Islam. Scholars frequently mention, it is hard to distinguish between the different craetures of Islam, and many simply overlap. Especially jinn. In the Quran itself, the term is used for any invisible creature in some places and many commentators adhere to such usage of the term jinn. Thus the entire seperation between angels and jinn would be wrong. Only during the hadith-literature such distinction is made. Assuming such difference exists, some creatures are still ambiguous. Iblis' essence is often up to debate, Qarin are often human companions in the Quran, Marid might be definitely shayatin but shayatin are not necessarily jinn. Zabaniyya might also be considered as demons, and differ from the 19 angels of hell. Also forcing the Houri and Ghilman into a sperate group of heavenly beigns, does not reflect the Quran probably, especially not if equated with God. In the Quran, God is not in paradise or heaven.
I would suggest, after my recent changes, if we feel not satisfied by them, to make a spatial categorization, instead of categorizing the creatures. Since, even academic source are pointing to the ambigugous definition of supernatural creatures in Quran,we can hardly find a strict and adequate categorization. I suggest to make something like, "Heavenly" (Angels, Archangels, Houris), Intermediary (Iblis, Jinn, Shayatin, Qarin) and "hell" (Zabaniyya, Malik, Nar-a-Samum). Iblis and Ifrit are often related to hell, but this is not evident fromt he Quran itself (maybe Iblis, but this would be an exception).-- VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 18:18, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
I would change title "People and things in the Quran" to "Things in the Quran" because people can be regarded as things (objects made of matter, equal to table, chair). -- 5.43.72.55 ( talk) 19:13, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
Should this template have some link to Jerusalem on here? And maybe to Palestine (region)? 2600:8800:590E:BB00:ADFC:913B:A194:49 ( talk) 23:43, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Characters and names in the Quran template. |
|
Archives: 1 |
Islam: Religious texts Template‑class | ||||||||||
|
This template was nominated for
deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
|
Monthly pageviews
| ||
|
I wanted to tag this template for deletion. Out of courtesy, I thought we could discuss first. I am not willing to argue about whether someone/something in mentioned in the Quran or not. My concern is that templates, according to our guidelines, should not do the work of article content, this is mentioned in Wikipedia:Template_namespace#Usage line 14 and 15. The list of people/things mentioned in the Quran can be found in page List of people mentioned by name in the Quran, we may claim that 'others' are 'implicitly' mentioned in the Quran, but that needs citation and needs to be in the article space not template space. Our previous template Template:Quranic people( [1]) was okay, why was it redirected to this problematic template? Kiatdd ( talk) 18:16, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
I notice a couple of "implicitly mentioned" sections. That seems rather subjective. With Jeremiah, for example, the article says " "Jeremiah is not mentioned in the Qur'an, but Muslim exegesis and literature narrates many instances from the life of Jeremiah and tradition fleshes out his narrative." That sounds like he shouldn't be included in this template. And it is already very large. I propose that we remove all the implicit mentions. St Anselm ( talk) 12:38, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
Since Lamech (father of Nuh) doesn't exist, why not use Lamech (father of Noah)? Debresser ( talk) 18:09, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
title = Islamic topics
Basispa ( talk) 16:47, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please change the title into "Islamic topics".
Mrelazar ( talk) 15:36, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
Not done there are numerous templates, referring to dozens more "Islamic topics", this template just covers "Characters and names in the Quran" - Arjayay ( talk) 15:56, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that in Islam there is not such thing as "before Islam" since Islam for humanity started during the creation of Adam, onward to that of all the prophets all the way to the prophet Muhammad and is still present today. So please either remove "before Islam" or change it to "before Muhammad", thank you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.230.184.59 ( talk • contribs)
The template needs to be reorganised to make it more like the main article, but I am not yet finished adding references to it. Leo1pard ( talk) 05:27, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The word fig in Arabic is misspelled as ṭīn (clay) instead of tīn (fig) - no diacritic under t. Gardenofhazard ( talk) 01:32, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The template suffers from inconsistent romanization of names, particularly in the long vowels. There are several ways of writing a long a, i or u in Arabic (á,í,ú is the rarest, â,î,û is less common and ā,ī,ū is the most common).
The template both circumflex (â) and macron (ā) when it should probably stick to one convention (macron is the more common one).
The examples are too numerous to list - nūn, fīl, Idrīs, etc. use macron, but then Luqmân, Jâlût, Azîz, use circumflex.
Then there are cases where there is no marking whatsoever, neither for vowel length nor consonant quality.
Noah is once Nūḥ and three other times Nuh. Ya’jūj wa Ma’jūj vs Ya'juj and Ma'juj Muḥammad vs Muhammad ‘Imrān vs Imran Ayyūb vs Ayyub Ilyās vs Ilyas Qabil... clicking takes you to Qābīl. Is-ḥāq - no need for hyphen.
There might be a few more. Gardenofhazard ( talk) 06:20, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
It is not like this is confined to me, there are plenty of online sources like this to back up what I said about pronunciation. Leo1pard ( talk) 16:10, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
Tīn (Ar.) is the common fig (ficus carica) and, after Lane, the tree of the balas; or, the tree and the fruit itself.
tīn fig In this book, we are not concerned about this fruit!
tīn, "fig" (North Sem.)
It takes its name from the noun, at-tīn (the fig) in the first verse.
There seem to be some confusions among the supernatural creatures in Quran. The Quran uses them often different than in later Islamic mythology. And modern scholarship differs from Classical Islam. Scholars frequently mention, it is hard to distinguish between the different craetures of Islam, and many simply overlap. Especially jinn. In the Quran itself, the term is used for any invisible creature in some places and many commentators adhere to such usage of the term jinn. Thus the entire seperation between angels and jinn would be wrong. Only during the hadith-literature such distinction is made. Assuming such difference exists, some creatures are still ambiguous. Iblis' essence is often up to debate, Qarin are often human companions in the Quran, Marid might be definitely shayatin but shayatin are not necessarily jinn. Zabaniyya might also be considered as demons, and differ from the 19 angels of hell. Also forcing the Houri and Ghilman into a sperate group of heavenly beigns, does not reflect the Quran probably, especially not if equated with God. In the Quran, God is not in paradise or heaven.
I would suggest, after my recent changes, if we feel not satisfied by them, to make a spatial categorization, instead of categorizing the creatures. Since, even academic source are pointing to the ambigugous definition of supernatural creatures in Quran,we can hardly find a strict and adequate categorization. I suggest to make something like, "Heavenly" (Angels, Archangels, Houris), Intermediary (Iblis, Jinn, Shayatin, Qarin) and "hell" (Zabaniyya, Malik, Nar-a-Samum). Iblis and Ifrit are often related to hell, but this is not evident fromt he Quran itself (maybe Iblis, but this would be an exception).-- VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 18:18, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
I would change title "People and things in the Quran" to "Things in the Quran" because people can be regarded as things (objects made of matter, equal to table, chair). -- 5.43.72.55 ( talk) 19:13, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
Should this template have some link to Jerusalem on here? And maybe to Palestine (region)? 2600:8800:590E:BB00:ADFC:913B:A194:49 ( talk) 23:43, 19 May 2023 (UTC)