Catalan-speaking countries NA‑class | |||||||
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Spain Template‑class | |||||||
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When placing this template in a page, use {{Catalan-speaking world|align=right}} or {{Catalan-speaking world|align=left}} to position it appropriately.
You can also include an image and caption. Here are two typical examples of such usage:
{{Catalan-speaking world|align=right|image=[[Image:Antonigaudí.jpg|Antoni Gaudí]]|caption=Antoni Gaudí}}
{{Catalan-speaking world|align=right|image=[[Image:Correfocs.jpg|250 px|Correfocs in Barcelona]]|caption=Correfocs in [[Barcelona]]}}
No longer relevant! -- Jmabel | Talk 01:18, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
When placing this template in a page, use {{Catalan-speaking world|right}} or {{Catalan-speaking world|left}} to position it appropriately.
Often this follows another large box (see for example Catalan language). We've been having problems about how to place this template successfully in pages. We had originally tried:
<-- Do not do it this way! It doesn't work for Internet Explorer --> <div style="float: right; clear: right; width: 170px;"> </div> {{Catalan-speaking world|right}}
This looks right in Firefox, but it's a mess in Internet Explorer. So we tried:
<div style="float: right; clear: right; width: 170px;"> {{Catalan-speaking world|right}} </div>
This looks right in Internet Explorer, but in Firefox the main body of text writes right over the template!
Can anyone work out how we can do this more successfully? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:11, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
Picasso lived in Catalonia, loved it, got its influence, and even used catalan language occasionally, but it's (unfortunatelly for we catalans) excessive consider him a catalan artist. I think he was a spaniard, and was at less as french than catalan. -- Joan sense nick 21:36, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't think so. I think Subirachs is a minor artist. What about Antoni Tàpies or Enric Miralles? But, in my opinion, only items that could be an icon of Catalonia should have a link in such a template. -- Joan sense nick 15:59, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Well, it's just personal preferences..., but I mean Subirachs is not an icon to represent the full country. In sculpture, I can remember the names of Josep Llimona, Pau Gargallo, Josep Clarà or Andreu Alfaro, for example. Unfortunatelly, there are not really great sculptors last decades. I don't know if it's usefull to consider Joan Brossa or Perejaume as sculptors. Enric Miralles was an architect. -- Joan sense nick 23:28, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Besides Picasso, I have also a problem with adding this box too freely to internationally acclaimed artists such as Miro and Dali. Imagine that a similar box for 'English' language would be added to every important English or American artists. That would not only be ridiculous. So I would ask to use this template much, much more sparingly. Arnoutf 21:25, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Even though I put it there, I'm not entirely happy with Sagrada Familia as an image here, because it is so much a Barcelona Icon. I'd be very open to something else; we might want to consider a grouping of images, the way they did at Image:4Serbs.jpg. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:23, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Well, its a famous icon, like Tour Eiffel to France. I like it because it's work in progress, growing up, not finished,... -- Joan sense nick 22:23, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
I question the accumulation of football teams in this template. FC Barcelona belongs because it is, and was especially during the Franco era, a symbol of Catalan nationalism. Perhaps one or two others have a history like that; if so, the articles should document it. Barring that, I'd be inclined to drop them from the template. They are pretty incongruous when the template is included in, say, Crown of Aragon. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:52, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree. Here we should focus on language, culture, history and geography issues. -- Joan sense nick 23:35, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
And in the past few days we have acquired yet more football teams. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:36, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
I've been experimenting with a way to get an image optionally into the template; see recent changes. I don't seem to have it right, though. For an example that shows what works and what doesn't, see Template talk:Catalan-speaking world/test. Does anyone see how to tweak the template to place the caption under the picture? -- Jmabel | Talk 08:02, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
You should include Botifarra, too. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.60.38.232 ( talk • contribs) 1 October 2006.
I'm working on creating the Catalan Literature portal ( Portal:Catalan Literature) and would like to get the template to line up a little better with the rest of the categories. I also need a lot of help adding items and editing/writing articles, so please contribute! Bewtros 18:53, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
The gray line is heavier at the bottom. Please fix it. I don't know how. Thanks! 68.148.164.166 ( talk) 05:50, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
I have done some minor changes and added some items to the template. It should not be too Catalonia-centric, so I added some links on history and traditions of other Catalan-speaking regions. However, I am aware it should not be too extensive so the additions have been just a few. -- Carles Noguera ( talk) 13:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
The name of the language is valencian and catalan, so I've addet both names. I've changed in Geography the term "Països Catalans" because doesn't refer to a geografica concept, is a cultural/political (very controverted) concept.-- Valsempre ( talk) 10:17, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Carles, as a general comment not really referred to this particular discussion, in this damned Països Catalans question we do disagree (as I disagreed with Dúnadan, to his utter disappointment and frustration: sorry, dude). The thing is that, in my opinion, it can barely be claimed that it is a geographical question when it is defined by language. Language and territory are not related in any way. Territories do not speak languages. Territories do not speak at all.
Geography is about ecoregions, etc. Guardamar has nothing to do geographically with Olot, Lleida, Salses, Alguer or Inca. Their landscapes are different, their climates are different, even their Catalan dialects are different enough to pose serious problems to understand each other (can you really understand a Balearic peasant? tell the truth! :D)....actually, Guardamar is much more related to, say, Mazarrón in Murcia, geographically speaking.
Looks like it is not necessarily so in Catalonia, but, outside Catalonia (especially in Valencia and the Balearics) Països Catalans is a political concept, whether we like it or not. I dont know how I can convince you guys about that...I accept hints of what could help you, but I am afraid it is going to be difficult if you havent accepted this already by now...
Also another question not really related to this particular discussion...I am growing increasingly weary of the apparently unskippable tag "a Catalan dialect" whenever the word "Valencian" appears here in wikipedia.
According to our local Catalan sources, the language is Catalan-Valencian-Balear. It has been so since Josep Calveras used it for the first time in 1925, in his work La reconstrucció del llenguatge literari català: «"Catalan-Valencian-Balear" would be the proper name that would satisfy everyone, if it were not because it is too long and the philologists are used to say briefly: Catalan language». The official dictionary of the Institut d'Estudis Catalans has the title Diccionari Català-valencià-balear and international well established sources also quote it like that [1] so Valencian is no less a Catalan dialect as Catalan is a Valencian dialect, huh?
Then, why this variety must always be reduced to Catalan only? and why when the context allows Valencian to have its own five minutes of fame it has to be always policed by the reassuring comment "a Catalan dialect/the local name for Catalan"? this info on Valencian's philological filiation belongs (and is already) in the Valencian article, not elsewhere.
You know by now already that, like yourself, I do not support dash or slash conventions for toponimy, but, if you guys truly believe is the same thing under different names, then a comma "Catalan, Valencian" should be fine here at this template. And, if people out there practice the ever sanctified "unity", Valencian should not always and ever be chaperoned by the tag "a Catalan dialect". This is like the Holy Trinity: one and three at the same time, but you guys only see the One (Catalan, the God Father) and I think the other two are important by themselves (I'd say that Valencian is the Holy Ghost and Balearic the Son, but, this statement, I can not assure it categorically ;)
Dont get me wrong (in written everything tends to sound overstated and a kinda grumpy): I have no problems with you, on the contrary, you are the light of my days here in these articles :D....but, c'mon, Catalans, you have to loose the grip and be self-confident enough to allow Valencian be. After all, there is no love without freedom ;) Mountolive le déluge 11:53, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
While the previous discussion goes on (actually....not that much lately) I'd like to propose a change of the name regardless of "Catalan" only or "Catalan-Valencian".
I find "The Catalan-(Valencian)-speaking world" inaccurate, odd and pretentious.
Inaccurate because in that "world" there are lots of people who do not speak Catalan (the traditional Spanish speaking territories in Valencia or the many Spanish/French/Italian monolinguals in these territories.
Odd because...is odd! "the Catalan-speaking world" does not sound that easy, does it?
Pretentious because calling that fraction a "World" is a bit out of hand. Those territories are too small all together to be possibly called a "world" whatsoever.
I'd therefore go for a name change. The only thing I can figure out tonight is "The Catalan(-Valencian) cultural domain". Not that great either, but I think it is an improvement.
Anybody agrees? Feel free to polish my suggestion or just work on some alternative from scratch. Mountolive le déluge 03:28, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I moved it. Hope we all like the result, but it is definitely open to improvement. As for the addition of "Valencian", being the Valencian Community the other major (and rival) element in this Holy Països Catalans Trinity, I think it is worth it mentioning it as to make more people feel included Mountolive le déluge 18:49, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Just for the record: there's another template solely for the language (grammar, pronunciation...). Some overlap is expected, but please, try to avoid it as much as possible. That template may be renamed soon, it's either Template:Catalan or Template:Catalan grammar. Thank you.-- Fauban 10:33, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Catalan-speaking countries NA‑class | |||||||
|
Spain Template‑class | |||||||
|
When placing this template in a page, use {{Catalan-speaking world|align=right}} or {{Catalan-speaking world|align=left}} to position it appropriately.
You can also include an image and caption. Here are two typical examples of such usage:
{{Catalan-speaking world|align=right|image=[[Image:Antonigaudí.jpg|Antoni Gaudí]]|caption=Antoni Gaudí}}
{{Catalan-speaking world|align=right|image=[[Image:Correfocs.jpg|250 px|Correfocs in Barcelona]]|caption=Correfocs in [[Barcelona]]}}
No longer relevant! -- Jmabel | Talk 01:18, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
When placing this template in a page, use {{Catalan-speaking world|right}} or {{Catalan-speaking world|left}} to position it appropriately.
Often this follows another large box (see for example Catalan language). We've been having problems about how to place this template successfully in pages. We had originally tried:
<-- Do not do it this way! It doesn't work for Internet Explorer --> <div style="float: right; clear: right; width: 170px;"> </div> {{Catalan-speaking world|right}}
This looks right in Firefox, but it's a mess in Internet Explorer. So we tried:
<div style="float: right; clear: right; width: 170px;"> {{Catalan-speaking world|right}} </div>
This looks right in Internet Explorer, but in Firefox the main body of text writes right over the template!
Can anyone work out how we can do this more successfully? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:11, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
Picasso lived in Catalonia, loved it, got its influence, and even used catalan language occasionally, but it's (unfortunatelly for we catalans) excessive consider him a catalan artist. I think he was a spaniard, and was at less as french than catalan. -- Joan sense nick 21:36, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't think so. I think Subirachs is a minor artist. What about Antoni Tàpies or Enric Miralles? But, in my opinion, only items that could be an icon of Catalonia should have a link in such a template. -- Joan sense nick 15:59, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Well, it's just personal preferences..., but I mean Subirachs is not an icon to represent the full country. In sculpture, I can remember the names of Josep Llimona, Pau Gargallo, Josep Clarà or Andreu Alfaro, for example. Unfortunatelly, there are not really great sculptors last decades. I don't know if it's usefull to consider Joan Brossa or Perejaume as sculptors. Enric Miralles was an architect. -- Joan sense nick 23:28, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Besides Picasso, I have also a problem with adding this box too freely to internationally acclaimed artists such as Miro and Dali. Imagine that a similar box for 'English' language would be added to every important English or American artists. That would not only be ridiculous. So I would ask to use this template much, much more sparingly. Arnoutf 21:25, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Even though I put it there, I'm not entirely happy with Sagrada Familia as an image here, because it is so much a Barcelona Icon. I'd be very open to something else; we might want to consider a grouping of images, the way they did at Image:4Serbs.jpg. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:23, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Well, its a famous icon, like Tour Eiffel to France. I like it because it's work in progress, growing up, not finished,... -- Joan sense nick 22:23, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
I question the accumulation of football teams in this template. FC Barcelona belongs because it is, and was especially during the Franco era, a symbol of Catalan nationalism. Perhaps one or two others have a history like that; if so, the articles should document it. Barring that, I'd be inclined to drop them from the template. They are pretty incongruous when the template is included in, say, Crown of Aragon. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:52, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree. Here we should focus on language, culture, history and geography issues. -- Joan sense nick 23:35, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
And in the past few days we have acquired yet more football teams. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:36, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
I've been experimenting with a way to get an image optionally into the template; see recent changes. I don't seem to have it right, though. For an example that shows what works and what doesn't, see Template talk:Catalan-speaking world/test. Does anyone see how to tweak the template to place the caption under the picture? -- Jmabel | Talk 08:02, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
You should include Botifarra, too. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.60.38.232 ( talk • contribs) 1 October 2006.
I'm working on creating the Catalan Literature portal ( Portal:Catalan Literature) and would like to get the template to line up a little better with the rest of the categories. I also need a lot of help adding items and editing/writing articles, so please contribute! Bewtros 18:53, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
The gray line is heavier at the bottom. Please fix it. I don't know how. Thanks! 68.148.164.166 ( talk) 05:50, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
I have done some minor changes and added some items to the template. It should not be too Catalonia-centric, so I added some links on history and traditions of other Catalan-speaking regions. However, I am aware it should not be too extensive so the additions have been just a few. -- Carles Noguera ( talk) 13:44, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
The name of the language is valencian and catalan, so I've addet both names. I've changed in Geography the term "Països Catalans" because doesn't refer to a geografica concept, is a cultural/political (very controverted) concept.-- Valsempre ( talk) 10:17, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Carles, as a general comment not really referred to this particular discussion, in this damned Països Catalans question we do disagree (as I disagreed with Dúnadan, to his utter disappointment and frustration: sorry, dude). The thing is that, in my opinion, it can barely be claimed that it is a geographical question when it is defined by language. Language and territory are not related in any way. Territories do not speak languages. Territories do not speak at all.
Geography is about ecoregions, etc. Guardamar has nothing to do geographically with Olot, Lleida, Salses, Alguer or Inca. Their landscapes are different, their climates are different, even their Catalan dialects are different enough to pose serious problems to understand each other (can you really understand a Balearic peasant? tell the truth! :D)....actually, Guardamar is much more related to, say, Mazarrón in Murcia, geographically speaking.
Looks like it is not necessarily so in Catalonia, but, outside Catalonia (especially in Valencia and the Balearics) Països Catalans is a political concept, whether we like it or not. I dont know how I can convince you guys about that...I accept hints of what could help you, but I am afraid it is going to be difficult if you havent accepted this already by now...
Also another question not really related to this particular discussion...I am growing increasingly weary of the apparently unskippable tag "a Catalan dialect" whenever the word "Valencian" appears here in wikipedia.
According to our local Catalan sources, the language is Catalan-Valencian-Balear. It has been so since Josep Calveras used it for the first time in 1925, in his work La reconstrucció del llenguatge literari català: «"Catalan-Valencian-Balear" would be the proper name that would satisfy everyone, if it were not because it is too long and the philologists are used to say briefly: Catalan language». The official dictionary of the Institut d'Estudis Catalans has the title Diccionari Català-valencià-balear and international well established sources also quote it like that [1] so Valencian is no less a Catalan dialect as Catalan is a Valencian dialect, huh?
Then, why this variety must always be reduced to Catalan only? and why when the context allows Valencian to have its own five minutes of fame it has to be always policed by the reassuring comment "a Catalan dialect/the local name for Catalan"? this info on Valencian's philological filiation belongs (and is already) in the Valencian article, not elsewhere.
You know by now already that, like yourself, I do not support dash or slash conventions for toponimy, but, if you guys truly believe is the same thing under different names, then a comma "Catalan, Valencian" should be fine here at this template. And, if people out there practice the ever sanctified "unity", Valencian should not always and ever be chaperoned by the tag "a Catalan dialect". This is like the Holy Trinity: one and three at the same time, but you guys only see the One (Catalan, the God Father) and I think the other two are important by themselves (I'd say that Valencian is the Holy Ghost and Balearic the Son, but, this statement, I can not assure it categorically ;)
Dont get me wrong (in written everything tends to sound overstated and a kinda grumpy): I have no problems with you, on the contrary, you are the light of my days here in these articles :D....but, c'mon, Catalans, you have to loose the grip and be self-confident enough to allow Valencian be. After all, there is no love without freedom ;) Mountolive le déluge 11:53, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
While the previous discussion goes on (actually....not that much lately) I'd like to propose a change of the name regardless of "Catalan" only or "Catalan-Valencian".
I find "The Catalan-(Valencian)-speaking world" inaccurate, odd and pretentious.
Inaccurate because in that "world" there are lots of people who do not speak Catalan (the traditional Spanish speaking territories in Valencia or the many Spanish/French/Italian monolinguals in these territories.
Odd because...is odd! "the Catalan-speaking world" does not sound that easy, does it?
Pretentious because calling that fraction a "World" is a bit out of hand. Those territories are too small all together to be possibly called a "world" whatsoever.
I'd therefore go for a name change. The only thing I can figure out tonight is "The Catalan(-Valencian) cultural domain". Not that great either, but I think it is an improvement.
Anybody agrees? Feel free to polish my suggestion or just work on some alternative from scratch. Mountolive le déluge 03:28, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I moved it. Hope we all like the result, but it is definitely open to improvement. As for the addition of "Valencian", being the Valencian Community the other major (and rival) element in this Holy Països Catalans Trinity, I think it is worth it mentioning it as to make more people feel included Mountolive le déluge 18:49, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Just for the record: there's another template solely for the language (grammar, pronunciation...). Some overlap is expected, but please, try to avoid it as much as possible. That template may be renamed soon, it's either Template:Catalan or Template:Catalan grammar. Thank you.-- Fauban 10:33, 20 August 2013 (UTC)