Austria Template‑class | |||||||
|
Former countries: Austria-Hungary Template‑class | ||||||||||
|
Same message as in Talk:Tuscan princes: Unless and until sufficient reliable sources are supplied identifying people born after 1919 (when nobility/royalty was abolished and titles/styles outlawed in Austria) as legitimate archdukes of Austria, such people should be removed from this navigation box. Especially for living people, it is inappropriate OR and potentially BLP-violating to ascribe unsourced titles that imply an individual actively claims a defunct noble role, especially in countries where such titles are illegal. Per WP:NAV-WITHIN I will be removing the people listed in the latest generations whose inclusion is not supported by reliable sources in their articles. The onus should be on the editor who includes (potentially illegal) defunct titles and styles to prove their additions meet sourcing guidelines.
Also pinging the participants of the discussion at Template:Austrian archduchesses: dwc lr Guy Surtsicna DrKay JoelleJay ( talk) 21:48, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Declaring someone is (an) archduke of Austria is putting forth two claims, one about the person, the other about the existence of the title. We can argue the qualifications for "archduke of Austria" have changed over time, or that there are now multiple meanings of the term; however, both of these conditions still acknowledge there is a difference somewhere. We can all agree that difference originated in 1919, and hopefully we agree it constitutes a distinction between people who possess(ed) a noble title recognized by the originating country, and those whose title was abolished before they were born.
I am not arguing here that we should ignore COMMONNAME/ NCROY for article titles. I am arguing the self- or media-reference applicable to COMMONNAME is not sufficient to declare actual, undisputed membership in a class defined externally to that individual. A small note at the top of the navbox is not sufficiently clarifying; the rest of the template treats equally those who legally had a title in their lifetime, those whose nobility was outlawed in prior generations, and those whose legally-noble forebears renounced their families' rights of succession to the throne. "Archduke of Austria" before 1919 definitionally entailed specific rights and recognition within Austria that no longer exist. If a person born before 1919 is categorized as an archduke, the reader can comfortably assume that person's titling was uncontested--that he was an archduke in the view of himself, the public, and the granting body. After this date (which is impossible to discern in this template), it is entirely unclear the justifications used for inclusion: is it because he titles himself an archduke? because (potentially sensationalized) news media in other countries call him an archduke? because other governments recognize the title? because he heads an active monarchist restoration movement? because books published by and for royal genealogy enthusiasts refer to him as such? or because he descends from someone who may or may not have been legitimized by any of the above reasons, even though RS titling does not yet exist for himself?*
I am also not convinced this new, relaxed understanding of Austrian titles is actually widespread; my suspicion is most people outside of central Europe (i.e. the vast majority of eng WP readers) still attach the "former" meaning (encompassing the intended target of Adelsaufhebungsgesetz) and its attendant privileges to the title and have no idea nobility was abolished in Austria. The media, monarchists, and self-interested would-be nobles then propagate this misunderstanding for their own benefit. By stating in wikivoice an individual is an archduke of Austria, we are explicitly giving more weight to sources that, for BLPs anywhere else on WP, are considered less reliable than official government documents. I would argue further the legal considerations in Austria elevate, beyond general BLP and NPOV, the quality requirements for citing noble entitlement. Therefore, we should be conservative in inserting allegations of illegal royal pretension in (especially BLP) articles.
Per WP:EXISTING, navigation templates should avoid including items without their own articles. A navigation box is meant to provide a coherent grouping of related articles with more organization than a category; it is not supposed to be a comprehensive list or genealogy. This template has a bunch of non-notable people in it who should be removed. JoelleJay ( talk) 02:04, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
Austria Template‑class | |||||||
|
Former countries: Austria-Hungary Template‑class | ||||||||||
|
Same message as in Talk:Tuscan princes: Unless and until sufficient reliable sources are supplied identifying people born after 1919 (when nobility/royalty was abolished and titles/styles outlawed in Austria) as legitimate archdukes of Austria, such people should be removed from this navigation box. Especially for living people, it is inappropriate OR and potentially BLP-violating to ascribe unsourced titles that imply an individual actively claims a defunct noble role, especially in countries where such titles are illegal. Per WP:NAV-WITHIN I will be removing the people listed in the latest generations whose inclusion is not supported by reliable sources in their articles. The onus should be on the editor who includes (potentially illegal) defunct titles and styles to prove their additions meet sourcing guidelines.
Also pinging the participants of the discussion at Template:Austrian archduchesses: dwc lr Guy Surtsicna DrKay JoelleJay ( talk) 21:48, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Declaring someone is (an) archduke of Austria is putting forth two claims, one about the person, the other about the existence of the title. We can argue the qualifications for "archduke of Austria" have changed over time, or that there are now multiple meanings of the term; however, both of these conditions still acknowledge there is a difference somewhere. We can all agree that difference originated in 1919, and hopefully we agree it constitutes a distinction between people who possess(ed) a noble title recognized by the originating country, and those whose title was abolished before they were born.
I am not arguing here that we should ignore COMMONNAME/ NCROY for article titles. I am arguing the self- or media-reference applicable to COMMONNAME is not sufficient to declare actual, undisputed membership in a class defined externally to that individual. A small note at the top of the navbox is not sufficiently clarifying; the rest of the template treats equally those who legally had a title in their lifetime, those whose nobility was outlawed in prior generations, and those whose legally-noble forebears renounced their families' rights of succession to the throne. "Archduke of Austria" before 1919 definitionally entailed specific rights and recognition within Austria that no longer exist. If a person born before 1919 is categorized as an archduke, the reader can comfortably assume that person's titling was uncontested--that he was an archduke in the view of himself, the public, and the granting body. After this date (which is impossible to discern in this template), it is entirely unclear the justifications used for inclusion: is it because he titles himself an archduke? because (potentially sensationalized) news media in other countries call him an archduke? because other governments recognize the title? because he heads an active monarchist restoration movement? because books published by and for royal genealogy enthusiasts refer to him as such? or because he descends from someone who may or may not have been legitimized by any of the above reasons, even though RS titling does not yet exist for himself?*
I am also not convinced this new, relaxed understanding of Austrian titles is actually widespread; my suspicion is most people outside of central Europe (i.e. the vast majority of eng WP readers) still attach the "former" meaning (encompassing the intended target of Adelsaufhebungsgesetz) and its attendant privileges to the title and have no idea nobility was abolished in Austria. The media, monarchists, and self-interested would-be nobles then propagate this misunderstanding for their own benefit. By stating in wikivoice an individual is an archduke of Austria, we are explicitly giving more weight to sources that, for BLPs anywhere else on WP, are considered less reliable than official government documents. I would argue further the legal considerations in Austria elevate, beyond general BLP and NPOV, the quality requirements for citing noble entitlement. Therefore, we should be conservative in inserting allegations of illegal royal pretension in (especially BLP) articles.
Per WP:EXISTING, navigation templates should avoid including items without their own articles. A navigation box is meant to provide a coherent grouping of related articles with more organization than a category; it is not supposed to be a comprehensive list or genealogy. This template has a bunch of non-notable people in it who should be removed. JoelleJay ( talk) 02:04, 14 July 2020 (UTC)