 | Football Template‑class | ||||||
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 | Northern Ireland Template‑class | ||||||
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There are way too many red links in this template, it's making a mess of the pages it's included on I feel. I propose removing it from all articles until it is improved. Anyone agree? Stu ’Bout ye! 15:56, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I'm re-designing this template to clean it up a little. I'm modelling it on the Football in England template which has league competitions on one side, Cups on the other and National teams and info down the middle. I've added all football competitions at senior level, all the league and most of the cups at intermediate level and the reserve league. Hope it gets the thumbs up. Cheers! DarthJoeyJoJo ( talk) 08:18, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
Use of the Ulster Banner to represent Northern Ireland
The Ulster Banner is used in this template to depict Northern Ireland although it is not the Flag of Northern Ireland - I therefore propose to remive it. The Ulster Banner should only be used when the article/template is solely referring to the International football team - it is not used for national or regional use.
If it was a nav box for only NI international teams then the flag would be appropriate - but it also includes local level football where the Ulster Banner is not used.-- Vintagekits ( talk) 22:09, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- "The Ulster Banner should only be used when the article/template is solely referring to the International football team - it is not used for national or regional use" -- says who?
- National flags are not used for "local level football" anywhere. Should all flags therefore be removed from all templates?
Mooretwin (
talk) 22:22, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- The Ulster Banner is not the Flag of Northern Ireland - the only reason that it is allowed to be used to represent NI for the international football team because FIFA and UEFA use it. The IFA dont use the flag.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 23:02, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- It's the flag of NI football. Who says the IFA doesn't use it?
Mooretwin (
talk) 23:03, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- It's the flag of NI football. - is it fuck! prove it. Who says the IFA doesn't use it? - I say it - show me one example where the IFA use it. For starters here is
their website. Take a look round.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 23:18, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Kindly refrain from using foul language: it's unlikely to impress anyone. The
FAI site doesn't use the Tricolour - should it therefore be removed from the Republic of Ireland template? Doesn't seem to appear on the
French Federation site either: remove it from the France template?
Mooretwin (
talk) 23:23, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Thats because they are the official flags of those countries. Is the Ulster Banner the Flag of Northern Ireland. P.S. I'll talk however I want to talk! Now unless you can prove the either the Ulster Banner is the Flag of Northern Ireland or the Ulster Banner is the flag of NI football as opposed to just being used to represent it at international level then I will be removing it.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 23:29, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- It's not up to you either to invent and apply rules as to when flags may be used, or to remove flags from templates, or to demand that others "prove" things to your satisfaction. You're shifting from one argument to the other - first you say the flag is not used at "local level" therefore it can't be used at the template; then you say it's not used on the IFA web site and therefore it can't be used at the template; now you revert to "it's not the official flag of NI". In football terms, the NI flag is used to represent NI, and that is what is relevant to this template. Your personal politically-motivated desire to remove the flag is not relevant.
Mooretwin (
talk) 23:34, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- All three are a the reason that it shouldnt be used.
- Well, all three have been refuted.
Mooretwin (
talk) 23:47, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Eh! where, when, how?--
Vintagekits (
talk) 23:51, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- In this discussion. Read my responses.
Mooretwin (
talk) 23:54, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- If read them - they are of little use and you seem extremely confused and illinformed when it comes to this issue.-- Vintagekits ( talk) 00:01, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- In this discussion. Read my responses.
Mooretwin (
talk) 23:54, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Eh! where, when, how?--
Vintagekits (
talk) 23:51, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Well, all three have been refuted.
Mooretwin (
talk) 23:47, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- "In football terms, the NI flag is used to represent NI" its not, it is only used by FIFA and UEFA to represent NI on the international stage - not at local and regional level, which this template covers. As this template is not about solely the NI international team and is its about football across the board in NI then the Ulster Banner is not appropriate. Unless someone comes here with a proof that it is used to at local level or is the Flag of NI then I will be removing it.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 23:43, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- You've already said that. I refer you to my response at 22:22 yesterday above. I also remind you that it is not up to you to create your own rules about flag usage on these templates.
Mooretwin (
talk) 23:47, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- So you have no defense. It'll be gone tomorrow unless you can come up with something constructive/productive - I shant be holdin me bret!--
Vintagekits (
talk) 23:50, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- The word is "defence" and I refer you yet again to my previous responses. You've just restated your original "arguments", each of which is refuted. I suggest to you that edit-warring is not the way to go. There is no consensus for your politically-motivated proposed change. Mooretwin ( talk) 23:53, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Like I said its a "factually-motivated proposed change" not a "politically-motivated proposed change" - I think you should stop make personal attack and try and be a little more civil! You refuted nothing. 1. Is the Ulster Banner the Flag of Northern Ireland, 2. Is this template used to navigate through articles other than the national team. 3. Is the Ulster Banner used to represent NI at any level other than a international level.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 00:01, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- (1) As noted above, it is the flag representing NI football. (2) Irrelevant, given 1 above. (3) Are any national flags used to represent other countries at levels other than international? (The answer is "yes" - they represent clubs in European competition; and the NI flag represents NI clubs.
Mooretwin (
talk) 00:17, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, I've said that on a number of occasion - it represents NI at international level - it is not used at local level and as it is not necessary (no flag on the England or Scotland template) then I will be removing it today.-- Vintagekits ( talk) 10:36, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- (1) As noted above, it is the flag representing NI football. (2) Irrelevant, given 1 above. (3) Are any national flags used to represent other countries at levels other than international? (The answer is "yes" - they represent clubs in European competition; and the NI flag represents NI clubs.
Mooretwin (
talk) 00:17, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- So you have no defense. It'll be gone tomorrow unless you can come up with something constructive/productive - I shant be holdin me bret!--
Vintagekits (
talk) 23:50, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- You've already said that. I refer you to my response at 22:22 yesterday above. I also remind you that it is not up to you to create your own rules about flag usage on these templates.
Mooretwin (
talk) 23:47, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- All three are a the reason that it shouldnt be used.
- It's not up to you either to invent and apply rules as to when flags may be used, or to remove flags from templates, or to demand that others "prove" things to your satisfaction. You're shifting from one argument to the other - first you say the flag is not used at "local level" therefore it can't be used at the template; then you say it's not used on the IFA web site and therefore it can't be used at the template; now you revert to "it's not the official flag of NI". In football terms, the NI flag is used to represent NI, and that is what is relevant to this template. Your personal politically-motivated desire to remove the flag is not relevant.
Mooretwin (
talk) 23:34, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Thats because they are the official flags of those countries. Is the Ulster Banner the Flag of Northern Ireland. P.S. I'll talk however I want to talk! Now unless you can prove the either the Ulster Banner is the Flag of Northern Ireland or the Ulster Banner is the flag of NI football as opposed to just being used to represent it at international level then I will be removing it.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 23:29, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Kindly refrain from using foul language: it's unlikely to impress anyone. The
FAI site doesn't use the Tricolour - should it therefore be removed from the Republic of Ireland template? Doesn't seem to appear on the
French Federation site either: remove it from the France template?
Mooretwin (
talk) 23:23, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- It's the flag of NI football. - is it fuck! prove it. Who says the IFA doesn't use it? - I say it - show me one example where the IFA use it. For starters here is
their website. Take a look round.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 23:18, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- It's the flag of NI football. Who says the IFA doesn't use it?
Mooretwin (
talk) 23:03, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- The Ulster Banner is not the Flag of Northern Ireland - the only reason that it is allowed to be used to represent NI for the international football team because FIFA and UEFA use it. The IFA dont use the flag.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 23:02, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
← I think a case could be made that tiny flag icons in the title bars of these navboxes aren't really needed. They really only have decorative value (which WP:MOSFLAG discourages) as opposed to navigational benefit. I would support a proposal made at WP:FOOTY to remove them from all "Football in nation" navboxes, but I do not think this particular template should be an exception to the norm. — Andrwsc ( talk · contribs) 17:23, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- A. NI is an exception to a normal it is a country (in FIFA terms) without a "national flag". B. I checked the other national templates and there are plenty without a national flag on them. Unless this template is for solely the international team then the use of this highly controvertial flag is incorrect and POV.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 17:29, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Ehh, its not controversial, it IS NPOV. In football, there is one and only one flag that represents Northern Ireland. And it is the one used when a NIR clubs plays in Europe.
chan
dler
• 17:36, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- I think that everyone (except for you) would agree that it is a controvertial flag. If you are unaware of the issues surrounding the flag have a wee read of
Northern Ireland flags issue and
Ulster Banner. I have no problem with the UB being used to represent the international team but this is about "Football in Northern Ireland" and therefore is being used to represent Northern Ireland and not the Northern Ireland international team - if might sound only a small difference, but actually its quite a big one.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 17:44, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- All the flags in these templates are "being used to represent [insert country] and not the [insert country] international team", therefore your argument that a flag is inappropriate doesn't work. Also, as you've been advised several times, the flag is not used only to represent the international team.
Mooretwin (
talk) 20:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Epic fail. In this case it is being used to represent the country not the NI international football team. It is not the Flag of NI and in that case it should be removed.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 20:21, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Like all the templates, it's the flag used to represent that country in the football world. You might not like that, but it's not your call.
Mooretwin (
talk) 20:24, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Where does it say that? -- Vintagekits ( talk) 21:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Like all the templates, it's the flag used to represent that country in the football world. You might not like that, but it's not your call.
Mooretwin (
talk) 20:24, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Epic fail. In this case it is being used to represent the country not the NI international football team. It is not the Flag of NI and in that case it should be removed.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 20:21, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- All the flags in these templates are "being used to represent [insert country] and not the [insert country] international team", therefore your argument that a flag is inappropriate doesn't work. Also, as you've been advised several times, the flag is not used only to represent the international team.
Mooretwin (
talk) 20:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- I think that everyone (except for you) would agree that it is a controvertial flag. If you are unaware of the issues surrounding the flag have a wee read of
Northern Ireland flags issue and
Ulster Banner. I have no problem with the UB being used to represent the international team but this is about "Football in Northern Ireland" and therefore is being used to represent Northern Ireland and not the Northern Ireland international team - if might sound only a small difference, but actually its quite a big one.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 17:44, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Ehh, its not controversial, it IS NPOV. In football, there is one and only one flag that represents Northern Ireland. And it is the one used when a NIR clubs plays in Europe.
chan
dler
• 17:36, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
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| Football Template‑class | ||||||
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| Northern Ireland Template‑class | ||||||
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There are way too many red links in this template, it's making a mess of the pages it's included on I feel. I propose removing it from all articles until it is improved. Anyone agree? Stu ’Bout ye! 15:56, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I'm re-designing this template to clean it up a little. I'm modelling it on the Football in England template which has league competitions on one side, Cups on the other and National teams and info down the middle. I've added all football competitions at senior level, all the league and most of the cups at intermediate level and the reserve league. Hope it gets the thumbs up. Cheers! DarthJoeyJoJo ( talk) 08:18, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
Use of the Ulster Banner to represent Northern Ireland
The Ulster Banner is used in this template to depict Northern Ireland although it is not the Flag of Northern Ireland - I therefore propose to remive it. The Ulster Banner should only be used when the article/template is solely referring to the International football team - it is not used for national or regional use.
If it was a nav box for only NI international teams then the flag would be appropriate - but it also includes local level football where the Ulster Banner is not used.-- Vintagekits ( talk) 22:09, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- "The Ulster Banner should only be used when the article/template is solely referring to the International football team - it is not used for national or regional use" -- says who?
- National flags are not used for "local level football" anywhere. Should all flags therefore be removed from all templates?
Mooretwin (
talk) 22:22, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- The Ulster Banner is not the Flag of Northern Ireland - the only reason that it is allowed to be used to represent NI for the international football team because FIFA and UEFA use it. The IFA dont use the flag.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 23:02, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- It's the flag of NI football. Who says the IFA doesn't use it?
Mooretwin (
talk) 23:03, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- It's the flag of NI football. - is it fuck! prove it. Who says the IFA doesn't use it? - I say it - show me one example where the IFA use it. For starters here is
their website. Take a look round.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 23:18, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Kindly refrain from using foul language: it's unlikely to impress anyone. The
FAI site doesn't use the Tricolour - should it therefore be removed from the Republic of Ireland template? Doesn't seem to appear on the
French Federation site either: remove it from the France template?
Mooretwin (
talk) 23:23, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Thats because they are the official flags of those countries. Is the Ulster Banner the Flag of Northern Ireland. P.S. I'll talk however I want to talk! Now unless you can prove the either the Ulster Banner is the Flag of Northern Ireland or the Ulster Banner is the flag of NI football as opposed to just being used to represent it at international level then I will be removing it.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 23:29, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- It's not up to you either to invent and apply rules as to when flags may be used, or to remove flags from templates, or to demand that others "prove" things to your satisfaction. You're shifting from one argument to the other - first you say the flag is not used at "local level" therefore it can't be used at the template; then you say it's not used on the IFA web site and therefore it can't be used at the template; now you revert to "it's not the official flag of NI". In football terms, the NI flag is used to represent NI, and that is what is relevant to this template. Your personal politically-motivated desire to remove the flag is not relevant.
Mooretwin (
talk) 23:34, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- All three are a the reason that it shouldnt be used.
- Well, all three have been refuted.
Mooretwin (
talk) 23:47, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Eh! where, when, how?--
Vintagekits (
talk) 23:51, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- In this discussion. Read my responses.
Mooretwin (
talk) 23:54, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- If read them - they are of little use and you seem extremely confused and illinformed when it comes to this issue.-- Vintagekits ( talk) 00:01, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- In this discussion. Read my responses.
Mooretwin (
talk) 23:54, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Eh! where, when, how?--
Vintagekits (
talk) 23:51, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Well, all three have been refuted.
Mooretwin (
talk) 23:47, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- "In football terms, the NI flag is used to represent NI" its not, it is only used by FIFA and UEFA to represent NI on the international stage - not at local and regional level, which this template covers. As this template is not about solely the NI international team and is its about football across the board in NI then the Ulster Banner is not appropriate. Unless someone comes here with a proof that it is used to at local level or is the Flag of NI then I will be removing it.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 23:43, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- You've already said that. I refer you to my response at 22:22 yesterday above. I also remind you that it is not up to you to create your own rules about flag usage on these templates.
Mooretwin (
talk) 23:47, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- So you have no defense. It'll be gone tomorrow unless you can come up with something constructive/productive - I shant be holdin me bret!--
Vintagekits (
talk) 23:50, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- The word is "defence" and I refer you yet again to my previous responses. You've just restated your original "arguments", each of which is refuted. I suggest to you that edit-warring is not the way to go. There is no consensus for your politically-motivated proposed change. Mooretwin ( talk) 23:53, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Like I said its a "factually-motivated proposed change" not a "politically-motivated proposed change" - I think you should stop make personal attack and try and be a little more civil! You refuted nothing. 1. Is the Ulster Banner the Flag of Northern Ireland, 2. Is this template used to navigate through articles other than the national team. 3. Is the Ulster Banner used to represent NI at any level other than a international level.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 00:01, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- (1) As noted above, it is the flag representing NI football. (2) Irrelevant, given 1 above. (3) Are any national flags used to represent other countries at levels other than international? (The answer is "yes" - they represent clubs in European competition; and the NI flag represents NI clubs.
Mooretwin (
talk) 00:17, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, I've said that on a number of occasion - it represents NI at international level - it is not used at local level and as it is not necessary (no flag on the England or Scotland template) then I will be removing it today.-- Vintagekits ( talk) 10:36, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- (1) As noted above, it is the flag representing NI football. (2) Irrelevant, given 1 above. (3) Are any national flags used to represent other countries at levels other than international? (The answer is "yes" - they represent clubs in European competition; and the NI flag represents NI clubs.
Mooretwin (
talk) 00:17, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- So you have no defense. It'll be gone tomorrow unless you can come up with something constructive/productive - I shant be holdin me bret!--
Vintagekits (
talk) 23:50, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- You've already said that. I refer you to my response at 22:22 yesterday above. I also remind you that it is not up to you to create your own rules about flag usage on these templates.
Mooretwin (
talk) 23:47, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- All three are a the reason that it shouldnt be used.
- It's not up to you either to invent and apply rules as to when flags may be used, or to remove flags from templates, or to demand that others "prove" things to your satisfaction. You're shifting from one argument to the other - first you say the flag is not used at "local level" therefore it can't be used at the template; then you say it's not used on the IFA web site and therefore it can't be used at the template; now you revert to "it's not the official flag of NI". In football terms, the NI flag is used to represent NI, and that is what is relevant to this template. Your personal politically-motivated desire to remove the flag is not relevant.
Mooretwin (
talk) 23:34, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Thats because they are the official flags of those countries. Is the Ulster Banner the Flag of Northern Ireland. P.S. I'll talk however I want to talk! Now unless you can prove the either the Ulster Banner is the Flag of Northern Ireland or the Ulster Banner is the flag of NI football as opposed to just being used to represent it at international level then I will be removing it.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 23:29, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Kindly refrain from using foul language: it's unlikely to impress anyone. The
FAI site doesn't use the Tricolour - should it therefore be removed from the Republic of Ireland template? Doesn't seem to appear on the
French Federation site either: remove it from the France template?
Mooretwin (
talk) 23:23, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- It's the flag of NI football. - is it fuck! prove it. Who says the IFA doesn't use it? - I say it - show me one example where the IFA use it. For starters here is
their website. Take a look round.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 23:18, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- It's the flag of NI football. Who says the IFA doesn't use it?
Mooretwin (
talk) 23:03, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- The Ulster Banner is not the Flag of Northern Ireland - the only reason that it is allowed to be used to represent NI for the international football team because FIFA and UEFA use it. The IFA dont use the flag.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 23:02, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
← I think a case could be made that tiny flag icons in the title bars of these navboxes aren't really needed. They really only have decorative value (which WP:MOSFLAG discourages) as opposed to navigational benefit. I would support a proposal made at WP:FOOTY to remove them from all "Football in nation" navboxes, but I do not think this particular template should be an exception to the norm. — Andrwsc ( talk · contribs) 17:23, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- A. NI is an exception to a normal it is a country (in FIFA terms) without a "national flag". B. I checked the other national templates and there are plenty without a national flag on them. Unless this template is for solely the international team then the use of this highly controvertial flag is incorrect and POV.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 17:29, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Ehh, its not controversial, it IS NPOV. In football, there is one and only one flag that represents Northern Ireland. And it is the one used when a NIR clubs plays in Europe.
chan
dler
• 17:36, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- I think that everyone (except for you) would agree that it is a controvertial flag. If you are unaware of the issues surrounding the flag have a wee read of
Northern Ireland flags issue and
Ulster Banner. I have no problem with the UB being used to represent the international team but this is about "Football in Northern Ireland" and therefore is being used to represent Northern Ireland and not the Northern Ireland international team - if might sound only a small difference, but actually its quite a big one.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 17:44, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- All the flags in these templates are "being used to represent [insert country] and not the [insert country] international team", therefore your argument that a flag is inappropriate doesn't work. Also, as you've been advised several times, the flag is not used only to represent the international team.
Mooretwin (
talk) 20:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Epic fail. In this case it is being used to represent the country not the NI international football team. It is not the Flag of NI and in that case it should be removed.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 20:21, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Like all the templates, it's the flag used to represent that country in the football world. You might not like that, but it's not your call.
Mooretwin (
talk) 20:24, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Where does it say that? -- Vintagekits ( talk) 21:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Like all the templates, it's the flag used to represent that country in the football world. You might not like that, but it's not your call.
Mooretwin (
talk) 20:24, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Epic fail. In this case it is being used to represent the country not the NI international football team. It is not the Flag of NI and in that case it should be removed.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 20:21, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- All the flags in these templates are "being used to represent [insert country] and not the [insert country] international team", therefore your argument that a flag is inappropriate doesn't work. Also, as you've been advised several times, the flag is not used only to represent the international team.
Mooretwin (
talk) 20:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- I think that everyone (except for you) would agree that it is a controvertial flag. If you are unaware of the issues surrounding the flag have a wee read of
Northern Ireland flags issue and
Ulster Banner. I have no problem with the UB being used to represent the international team but this is about "Football in Northern Ireland" and therefore is being used to represent Northern Ireland and not the Northern Ireland international team - if might sound only a small difference, but actually its quite a big one.--
Vintagekits (
talk) 17:44, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Ehh, its not controversial, it IS NPOV. In football, there is one and only one flag that represents Northern Ireland. And it is the one used when a NIR clubs plays in Europe.
chan
dler
• 17:36, 26 May 2009 (UTC)