This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
Text file with fields for 1-99 listed:
Excel spreadsheet (1-99) for easier data entry that creates a formatted column:
Suggestions or problem reports would be appreciated. Ponydepression ( talk) 18:36, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
I notice an editor has changed the template so that "width" is a "new" parameter. The parameter has not been added to the documentation, nor was it discussed or even announced here. The change does NOT expand the width of the table, and I wonder if the editor intended that to be the effect. If not, I'm not certain of the purpose of this change. Should we revert? And isn't it time we protected this template so only admins can update it, considering the many articles it's used in, to prevent it from being affected by vandalism, not to mention well intentioned but untested / undocumented / unapproved changes? -- A Knight Who Says Ni ( talk) 12:31, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
The following example (live) shows how the track-listing table aligns with an infobox & image. When a table is set as width:100%, then that table is forced down a page until it can span the full width of the page (with no infoboxes or images alongside). The track-table is displayed by {{ track_listing/sandbox}}:
Column 1 | Column 2 |
Row 1 label: | Row 1 data |
Row 2 label: | Row 2 data |
No. | Title | Length |
---|---|---|
1. | " Back in the U.S.S.R." | 2:43 |
2. | " Dear Prudence" | 3:56 |
3. | " Glass Onion" | 2:17 |
4. | " Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da" | 3:08 |
5. | " Wild Honey Pie" | 0:52 |
6. | " The Continuing Story of Bungalow Bill" | 3:13 |
To close a large gap above a wikitable, remove the style option "width: 100%;" from the table header in the template, and allow the width to auto-narrow. Large gaps often appear in short articles which mix an infobox with a table, as in the example here.
The next issue is to narrow the table, in general, to prevent an over-wide display, by reducing the 2nd 100% to be 80% as:
Those 2 settings should allow the table width to auto-narrow, as specifically needed in each article. - Wikid77 02:53, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm confused. What is the intention here ? I tried reading the above and i'm totally confused.
— TheDJ ( talk • contribs) 21:49, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Hey everyone. I realize always having to manually enter in all of the track information is a drag, even with templates, so I created a program to do most of the heavy lifting. Essentially you paste in the old track information, select the options, and click convert. The output will be directed to Notepad.
Note that since this requires Notepad, it will only run on Windows systems. I've only tested it on Windows XP specifically.
It comes with no warranty, but it does come with the source code ;) It was written in AutoIT.
It also only pipes out the Track title and Length automatically; any notes must be entered manually, although the blank form is generated.
For instance, at the intial screen, copy and paste this:
# "Razor" - 6:48 ([[Dave Grohl]])
# "Over and Out" - 5:56 (Grohl, [[Taylor Hawkins]], [[Nate Mendel]], [[Chris Shiflett]])
and, depending on the options, this is the output.
{{Track listing
| title1 = Razor
| length1 = 6:48
| title2 = Over and Out
| length2 = 5:56
}}
Again, everything should be checked for accuracy; this just does most of the gruntwork. However, it should allow for much easier horizontal rather than vertical comparisons.
Please try it out and get back to me.
It can be found here...
http://sourceforge.net/projects/tlconverter/files/
Cheers, Foofighter1337
P.S., I'm new to editing Wikipedia, so I'm terribly sorry if I violated any rules. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Foofighter1337 ( talk • contribs) 08:52, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
I plan to add the
hAudio microformat to this template; but first it would be useful to have the parameters of {{
Track listing/Track}} documented. Can anyone oblige with that, please?
Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing);
Andy's talk;
Andy's edits 18:27, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
{{Tracklist/Track}}
This documentation is still required, please. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 18:39, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
I have redesigned the template in " /sandbox2" to auto-widen for long titles to fit the full page width, if needed. There have been multiple problems with the table width:
The new revision will auto-widen the track-table when titles are very long, and no longer leave white-space at the end of the table, unless using new parameter marginright=10em. - Wikid77 04:42, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
The problems of unusual table widths were caused by multiple issues:
Those were fixed, as follows:
The solution involves making the width settings to be optional parameters, but also defaulting the column widths in pixels (such as 270px, not as percent 60%) to fit the size of the titles given. When a user widens a browser screen, then the table will auto-widen to fit the space, but not wider than needed. - Wikid77 15:22, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Rather than span the entire page, an auto-widened table tends to be only as wide, as needed, to fit the actual titles, writers, and other entries for a specific album. For years, the display of track-tables had been geared to span across wide laptop screens, where track tables were typically very wide tables, similar to accountant ledger sheets. Now, the spacing between columns will be controlled, if needed, by setting the spacer gapwidth=35px (or similar) when wide tables are needed in an article. For a list of other parameters used to widen a table, see subtopic below: " #Customizing auto-widened tables". - Wikid77 19:25, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
With the table columns defined by pixel widths ("270px" or "95px"), it is possible to precisely set the width of each column, and now spacer-gap columns will be used to spread columns across a page. This capability is needed for WP:Featured articles, where the quality of typesetting can be an important issue.
The new parameters, for width-control, are as follows:
When there are multiple track-tables, stacked together as a set, it might be necessary to set each table with titlewidth=350px (or similar) so that short-title tables align with long-title tables. By default, each track-table will auto-widen to fit whatever long titles are listed. So the various techniques for aligning multiple track-tables are:
In rare cases, such as group song collaborations, it might be necessary to insert multiple "<br>" breaks in a Writer's list, so as to wrap all the names down the screen. There is no " one size fits all" plan for displaying tracks of an album, so that's why customizing of column widths is needed, in rare cases. Consider users with narrow windows, versus wide laptop screens. Sometimes, an extremely long title should be force-wrapped by inserting a "<br>" break. - Wikid77 ( talk) 19:26, 3 May 2010
The examples below show the current table-format, versus the proposed /sandbox2 table-format for various album tracks. The difference is most obvious when the browser text-size is increased (as with sight-impaired users) or the browser window is narrowed to 800x600 width, or even narrower for hand-held devices.
Current revision:
No. | Title | Writer(s) | Length |
---|---|---|---|
1. | " Good Times Bad Times" (from Led Zeppelin, 1969) | Bonham, Jones, Page | 2:48 |
2. | " Communication Breakdown" (from Led Zeppelin, 1969) | Bonham, Jones, Page | 2:30 |
3. | " Dazed and Confused" (from Led Zeppelin, 1969) | Page | 6:27 |
4. | " Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" (from Led Zeppelin, 1969) | Bredon, Page, Plant | 6:42 |
No. | Title | Writer(s) | Length |
---|---|---|---|
1. | " The Song Remains the Same" (from Houses of the Holy, 1973) | Page, Plant | 5:31 |
2. | " Over the Hills and Far Away" (from Houses of the Holy, 1973) | Page, Plant | 4:50 |
Proposed /sandbox2:
{{track listing/sandbox2 | titlewidth=350px | headline = Disc one | total_length = | writing_credits = yes | title1 = [[Good Times Bad Times]] | note1 = from ''[[Led Zeppelin (album)|Led Zeppelin]]'', 1969 | writer1 = [[John Bonham|Bonham]], [[John Paul Jones (musician)|Jones]], [[Jimmy Page|Page]] | length1 = 2:48 | title2 = [[Communication Breakdown]] | note2 = from ''Led Zeppelin'', 1969 | writer2 = Bonham, Jones, Page | length2 = 2:30 | title3 = [[Dazed and Confused (song)#Led Zeppelin studio recording|Dazed and Confused]] | note3 = from ''Led Zeppelin'', 1969 | writer3 = Page | length3 = 6:27 | title4 = [[Babe I'm Gonna Leave You#Led Zeppelin version|Babe I'm Gonna Leave You]] | note4 = from ''Led Zeppelin'', 1969 | writer4 = [[Anne Bredon|Bredon]], Page, [[Robert Plant|Plant]] | length4 = 6:42 }} {{track listing/sandbox2 | titlewidth=350px | headline = Disc two | total_length = | writing_credits = yes | title1 = [[The Song Remains the Same (song)|The Song Remains the Same]] | note1 = from ''[[Houses of the Holy]]'', 1973 | writer1 = [[Jimmy Page|Page]], [[Robert Plant|Plant]] | length1 = 5:31 | title2 = [[Over the Hills and Far Away (Led Zeppelin song)|Over the Hills and Far Away]] | note2 = from ''Houses of the Holy'', 1973 | writer2 = Page, Plant | length2 = 4:50 }}
For wide-screen windows, the examples for the current version & /sandbox2 will appear similar in table width. When set properly, the title-column will have the same width for each disc in a set. Again, the track-tables should still be readable with large browser text-size settings, per the WP:Accessibility policy. - Wikid77 ( talk) 13:06, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
I was honestly unsure of where to place this, as the "auto-widen/width" topic has been split off into several sub-topics, but since I'm giving an example with my concern, I figured I would place it here. I think the width issue needs to be rethought, as while I can see the need for it to be adjusted for those with smaller screens, the changes are having an undesired effect on larger screens (if you ask me.) Take a look at this "real world" example of a busier table than the example shown:
{{tracklist | collapsed = yes | headline = Original Template: K.O.D. | extra_column = Producer(s) | total_length = 77:49 | writing_credits = yes | title1 = Show Me a God | note1 = | writer1 = A. Yates | extra1 = Matic Lee | length1 = 3:41 | title2 = The Warning (Skit) | note2 = | writer2 = S. Watson | extra2 = Seven | length2 = 0:31 | title3 = Demons | note3 = featuring [[Three 6 Mafia]] | writer3 = A. Yates, J. Houston, P. Beauregard | extra3 = Matic Lee & Seven | length3 = 5:23 | title4 = Blackened The Sun | note4 = | writer4 = A. Yates | extra4 = [[Reuben 'Bonyx' Armstrong|Ruben Armstrong]] | length4 = 4:26 | title5 = Strange Music Box | note5 = featuring [[Brotha Lynch Hung]] & [[Krizz Kaliko]] | writer5 = A. Yates, K. Mann, S. Watson | extra5 = YoungFyre & Karbon <small>({{Tooltip|add. prod.|Additional Production}})</small> | length5 = 4:11 | title6 = Sundae (Skit) | note6 = | writer6 = | extra6 = Robert Rebeck | length6 = 0:25 | title7 = Check Yo Temperature | note7 = featuring [[Sundae (rapper)|Sundae]] & [[T-Nutty]] | writer7 = A. Yates, S. Austin, T. Jones Jr. | extra7 = YoungFyre & Demolish Beatz <small>({{Tooltip|add. prod.|Additional Production}})</small> | length7 = 4:32 | title8 = B. Boy | note8 = featuring [[Big Scoob]], [[Bumpy Knuckles]], [[Kutt Calhoun]] & [[Skatterman & Snug Brim|Skatterman]] | writer8 = A. Yates, M. Calhoun Jr., S. Ashby Jr., S. Landis | extra8 = YoungFyre & Karbon <small>({{Tooltip|add. prod.|Additional Production}})</small> | length8 = 5:29 | title9 = Hunterish | note9 = featuring [[Irv Da Phenom]] & [[Krizz Kaliko]] | writer9 = A. Yates, M. Irving Jr., S. Watson | extra9 = YoungFyre | length9 = 3:47 | title10 = The Pick Up (Skit) | note10 = | writer10 = A. Yates | extra10 = Robert Rebeck | length10 = 1:15 | title11 = In The Trunk | note11 = | writer11 = A. Yates | extra11 = [[Reuben 'Bonyx' Armstrong|Ruben Armstrong]] | length11 = 4:25 | title12 = Pinocchiho | note12 = | writer12 = A. Yates | extra12 = Matic Lee | length12 = 2:10 | title13 = Horns | note13 = featuring [[King Gordy]] & [[Prozak (rapper)|Prozak]] | writer13 = A. Yates, S. Shippy, W. Alford II | extra13 = Robert Rebeck | length13 = 3:59 | title14 = Interview With [[Jason Whitlock]] (Skit) | note14 = | writer14 = | extra14 = Robert Rebeck & Seven | length14 = 2:21 | title15 = It Was An Accident | note15 = featuring [[Alan Wayne]] | writer15 = A. Yates, Wayne | extra15 = Seven | length15 = 3:44 | title16 = Shadows On The Road | note16 = | writer16 = A. Yates, S. Watson | extra16 = Seven | length16 = 3:28 | title17 = Low | note17 = | writer17 = A. Yates, S. Watson | extra17 = [[Reuben 'Bonyx' Armstrong|Ruben Armstrong]] | length17 = 3:33 | title18 = Messages (Skit) | note18 = | writer18 = | extra18 = Robert Rebeck | length18 = 1:38 | title19 = Killing You | note19 = | writer19 = A. Yates, S. Watson | extra19 = Matic Lee & Seven | length19 = 3:36 | title20 = Leave Me Alone | note20 = | writer20 = A. Yates, S. Watson | extra20 = YoungFyre & Karbon <small>({{Tooltip|add. prod.|Additional Production}})</small> | length20 = 3:52 | title21 = Prayer - By Brother K.T. (Skit) | note21 = | writer21 = K. Taylor | extra21 = Robert Rebeck | length21 = 0:42 | title22 = K.O.D. | note22 = featuring [[Mackenzie O'Guin]] | writer22 = A. Yates, B. Fraser, S. Watson | extra22 = Seven | length22 = 5:14 | title23 = The Martini | note23 = featuring [[Krizz Kaliko]] | writer23 = A. Yates, S. Watson | extra23 = YoungFyre | length23 = 5:27 }} {{track listing/sandbox2 | collapsed = yes | headline = Proposed Revision Template: K.O.D. | extra_column = Producer(s) | total_length = 77:49 | writing_credits = yes | title1 = Show Me a God | note1 = | writer1 = A. Yates | extra1 = Matic Lee | length1 = 3:41 | title2 = The Warning (Skit) | note2 = | writer2 = S. Watson | extra2 = Seven | length2 = 0:31 | title3 = Demons | note3 = featuring [[Three 6 Mafia]] | writer3 = A. Yates, J. Houston, P. Beauregard | extra3 = Matic Lee & Seven | length3 = 5:23 | title4 = Blackened The Sun | note4 = | writer4 = A. Yates | extra4 = [[Reuben 'Bonyx' Armstrong|Ruben Armstrong]] | length4 = 4:26 | title5 = Strange Music Box | note5 = featuring [[Brotha Lynch Hung]] & [[Krizz Kaliko]] | writer5 = A. Yates, K. Mann, S. Watson | extra5 = YoungFyre & Karbon <small>({{Tooltip|add. prod.|Additional Production}})</small> | length5 = 4:11 | title6 = Sundae (Skit) | note6 = | writer6 = | extra6 = Robert Rebeck | length6 = 0:25 | title7 = Check Yo Temperature | note7 = featuring [[Sundae (rapper)|Sundae]] & [[T-Nutty]] | writer7 = A. Yates, S. Austin, T. Jones Jr. | extra7 = YoungFyre & Demolish Beatz <small>({{Tooltip|add. prod.|Additional Production}})</small> | length7 = 4:32 | title8 = B. Boy | note8 = featuring [[Big Scoob]], [[Bumpy Knuckles]], [[Kutt Calhoun]] & [[Skatterman & Snug Brim|Skatterman]] | writer8 = A. Yates, M. Calhoun Jr., S. Ashby Jr., S. Landis | extra8 = YoungFyre & Karbon <small>({{Tooltip|add. prod.|Additional Production}})</small> | length8 = 5:29 | title9 = Hunterish | note9 = featuring [[Irv Da Phenom]] & [[Krizz Kaliko]] | writer9 = A. Yates, M. Irving Jr., S. Watson | extra9 = YoungFyre | length9 = 3:47 | title10 = The Pick Up (Skit) | note10 = | writer10 = A. Yates | extra10 = Robert Rebeck | length10 = 1:15 | title11 = In The Trunk | note11 = | writer11 = A. Yates | extra11 = [[Reuben 'Bonyx' Armstrong|Ruben Armstrong]] | length11 = 4:25 | title12 = Pinocchiho | note12 = | writer12 = A. Yates | extra12 = Matic Lee | length12 = 2:10 | title13 = Horns | note13 = featuring [[King Gordy]] & [[Prozak (rapper)|Prozak]] | writer13 = A. Yates, S. Shippy, W. Alford II | extra13 = Robert Rebeck | length13 = 3:59 | title14 = Interview With [[Jason Whitlock]] (Skit) | note14 = | writer14 = | extra14 = Robert Rebeck & Seven | length14 = 2:21 | title15 = It Was An Accident | note15 = featuring [[Alan Wayne]] | writer15 = A. Yates, Wayne | extra15 = Seven | length15 = 3:44 | title16 = Shadows On The Road | note16 = | writer16 = A. Yates, S. Watson | extra16 = Seven | length16 = 3:28 | title17 = Low | note17 = | writer17 = A. Yates, S. Watson | extra17 = [[Reuben 'Bonyx' Armstrong|Ruben Armstrong]] | length17 = 3:33 | title18 = Messages (Skit) | note18 = | writer18 = | extra18 = Robert Rebeck | length18 = 1:38 | title19 = Killing You | note19 = | writer19 = A. Yates, S. Watson | extra19 = Matic Lee & Seven | length19 = 3:36 | title20 = Leave Me Alone | note20 = | writer20 = A. Yates, S. Watson | extra20 = YoungFyre & Karbon <small>({{Tooltip|add. prod.|Additional Production}})</small> | length20 = 3:52 | title21 = Prayer - By Brother K.T. (Skit) | note21 = | writer21 = K. Taylor | extra21 = Robert Rebeck | length21 = 0:42 | title22 = K.O.D. | note22 = featuring [[Mackenzie O'Guin]] | writer22 = A. Yates, B. Fraser, S. Watson | extra22 = Seven | length22 = 5:14 | title23 = The Martini | note23 = featuring [[Krizz Kaliko]] | writer23 = A. Yates, S. Watson | extra23 = YoungFyre | length23 = 5:27 }}
The proposed version is unnecessarily scrunching the table and causing wraps that aren't needed on larger screens. As stated, I can understand needed to adjust the template so it plays nicer with smaller screens, but I don't think that should come as a penalty to larger ones. You have implemented the width option to override the default width, but by default I think it should better adapt to the screen size.
This example also brings up a tiny issue that I think should perhaps been looked into. In the example of the revised version, I have a total_length set, as well as addtotal (which, perhaps should be "add_length" or "add_total_length"?) and it results in both being shown. Now obviously this isn't the "correct" usage, but I think the template should have some kind of check for this type of redundancy. I believe only one value should be shown (if possible). In that case, I think manual should override auto. – Mizery Made ( talk · contribs) 19:07, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
04-May-2010: In general, the use of auto-widened track-tables should require editing of only a few album articles, to migrate into the new format, such as using customized width parameters. As could be expected, during prior years, many articles have already placed images, or infoboxes, alongside the track tables, to limit their extreme width on wide, laptop screens. In many cases, those track-tables (viewed on laptops) will appear only slightly narrower, in width, when auto-widened to fit long titles. The greatest gains, in table readability, will come in tables with just Title+Length, or to users of narrow-window screens, such as on desktop monitors, or narrow half-screen windows. Because most music tracks have titles with fewer than 10 words, the vast majority of auto-widened tables should appear "normal" even if narrower than before. The greatest surprises will come in tables with one extremely long title, or 4 people writing a single song, and those tables should be customized, such as splitting the long title (with "<br>") to avoid an excessively-wide table, due to one long song title or 4-6 songwriters (etc.). In migrating to auto-widened tables, the new customized width parameters (titlewidth=350px, gapwidth=25px, width=585px, or mr=10px) will allow refining the appearance of track-tables in WP:Featured articles, for the first time in years. In general, spot-check several, perhaps 29, of the "somewhat popular albums of all time" to ensure that the most surprising table layouts have been adjusted. Far more albums in articles, now, will gain clearer track-tables, rather than become awkward, or unbalanced, lists of recordings. No longer will 2 columns of a track-table have words which run-together, such as the last word of a title join to a Writer, as word+name ("Bridge over TroubledPaul Simon"). On balance, most track-tables should appear clearer than before. - Wikid77 ( talk) 03:17, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
The new parameter "endnotes=XXX" (in /sandbox2) would put text at the bottom of a track-table, with the default endnotes_color=#F3F3F3 (light gray). Many readers have wide laptop screens, so extra thought is needed to design tables to also fit in narrow square windows (such as 800x600). For testing as square windows, the table width can be restricted as width=585px, then observe the spacing of table columns. Only some browsers auto-widen the columns to fit longer text, so the handling of extra-wide text could be helped by putting a bottom end-note to explain the entry "4 authors[a]" and defining note [a] with new parameter "endnote=[a] - The 4 authors are...". For multiple notes [a], [b], [c] (etc.), the endnote text could contain "<br>" breaks or use the colon-indent for each note line after "| endnotes=".
{{track listing/sandbox2 | writing_credits = yes | title1 = Number One Song | note1 = [a] | writer1 = (5 writers<sup>[b]</sup>) | endnotes_color = #F0F0F0 | endnotes=Notes:<br> [a] - This song was recorded in 1 take, selected as best version.<br> [b] - The 5 writers are Paul McCartney, John Lennon, C, D & E. | length1= 4.13 | title2 = Yet Another Song | writer2=John Doe | length2 = 3.26 | title3 = Now a Short Song | writer3=Jane Dohe | length3 = 1.58 | addtotal=yes }}
The endnotes (above), in markup language, spans 3 lines, as follows:
| endnotes_color = #F0F0F0 | endnotes=Notes:<br> [a] - This song was recorded in 1 take, selected as best version.<br> [b] - The 5 writers are Paul McCartney, John Lennon, C, D & E. | length1= 4:13
The endnotes=xxx is basically free-form text, to allow any style of table footnotes. The use of note letters "[a]" & "[b]" is customary, to distinguish from an article's numbered footnotes [1], [2], [3] (etc.). Those letters can have the "sup" superscript tag ("<sup>[b]</sup>"). Now, with an article intended for young readers, the first note could be clarified to emphasize its location inside the table: "(see table note: [a])" being more obvious to young readers. As always, any use of reftag footnotes will list those notes at the bottom of the page in the Notes/References sections. By using endnotes=xxx, there will no longer be a need to force any column to contain an extremely long entry. - Wikid77 ( talk) 17:49, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
The new parameter "addtotal=yes" (in
/sandbox2) will add the track lengths (minutes/seconds in dot colon format mm:ss) and show the total of those numbers (length1 + length2 + length3...) at the bottom of the Length column. The total would be in the same location as with parameter "total_length=mm:ss". However, the sum of minutes/seconds for addtotal=yes would be calculated, live, by adding each of the parameters (length1=mm:ss) in the track-table. -
Wikid77 (
talk) 19:56, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
06-May-2010: I agree that having 2 track-list templates is a better solution: in a volunteer project, it is too difficult to expect everyone to take time to consider, and refine, all the new options "forced" onto everyone, as a single track-list template. A new Template:Tracklist_custom, as a vanguard template providing new features, will lessen the impact to all those 15,000(?) album articles, and allow long-term live testing of features, so more people will have ample time to evaluate the impact of new features. Some new features, after being evaluated in {Tracklist_custom}, long-term, could then be added into {Track listing}, after many people have taken the time to consider the new functionality. Again, volunteers do not have time to evaluate the potential of widespread changes to over 15,000 articles, in a few weeks. The 2nd template would simplify the exploration of new features, without scaring the current users about impacts to the other 15,000 articles. We would annotate the documentation subpages to note the use of those 2 templates (one for most articles, the other for custom tables, with similarity between the two), allowing a broader range of features to support the entire user base of Wikipedia. - Wikid77 ( talk) 00:47, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
Text file with fields for 1-99 listed:
Excel spreadsheet (1-99) for easier data entry that creates a formatted column:
Suggestions or problem reports would be appreciated. Ponydepression ( talk) 18:36, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
I notice an editor has changed the template so that "width" is a "new" parameter. The parameter has not been added to the documentation, nor was it discussed or even announced here. The change does NOT expand the width of the table, and I wonder if the editor intended that to be the effect. If not, I'm not certain of the purpose of this change. Should we revert? And isn't it time we protected this template so only admins can update it, considering the many articles it's used in, to prevent it from being affected by vandalism, not to mention well intentioned but untested / undocumented / unapproved changes? -- A Knight Who Says Ni ( talk) 12:31, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
The following example (live) shows how the track-listing table aligns with an infobox & image. When a table is set as width:100%, then that table is forced down a page until it can span the full width of the page (with no infoboxes or images alongside). The track-table is displayed by {{ track_listing/sandbox}}:
Column 1 | Column 2 |
Row 1 label: | Row 1 data |
Row 2 label: | Row 2 data |
No. | Title | Length |
---|---|---|
1. | " Back in the U.S.S.R." | 2:43 |
2. | " Dear Prudence" | 3:56 |
3. | " Glass Onion" | 2:17 |
4. | " Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da" | 3:08 |
5. | " Wild Honey Pie" | 0:52 |
6. | " The Continuing Story of Bungalow Bill" | 3:13 |
To close a large gap above a wikitable, remove the style option "width: 100%;" from the table header in the template, and allow the width to auto-narrow. Large gaps often appear in short articles which mix an infobox with a table, as in the example here.
The next issue is to narrow the table, in general, to prevent an over-wide display, by reducing the 2nd 100% to be 80% as:
Those 2 settings should allow the table width to auto-narrow, as specifically needed in each article. - Wikid77 02:53, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm confused. What is the intention here ? I tried reading the above and i'm totally confused.
— TheDJ ( talk • contribs) 21:49, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Hey everyone. I realize always having to manually enter in all of the track information is a drag, even with templates, so I created a program to do most of the heavy lifting. Essentially you paste in the old track information, select the options, and click convert. The output will be directed to Notepad.
Note that since this requires Notepad, it will only run on Windows systems. I've only tested it on Windows XP specifically.
It comes with no warranty, but it does come with the source code ;) It was written in AutoIT.
It also only pipes out the Track title and Length automatically; any notes must be entered manually, although the blank form is generated.
For instance, at the intial screen, copy and paste this:
# "Razor" - 6:48 ([[Dave Grohl]])
# "Over and Out" - 5:56 (Grohl, [[Taylor Hawkins]], [[Nate Mendel]], [[Chris Shiflett]])
and, depending on the options, this is the output.
{{Track listing
| title1 = Razor
| length1 = 6:48
| title2 = Over and Out
| length2 = 5:56
}}
Again, everything should be checked for accuracy; this just does most of the gruntwork. However, it should allow for much easier horizontal rather than vertical comparisons.
Please try it out and get back to me.
It can be found here...
http://sourceforge.net/projects/tlconverter/files/
Cheers, Foofighter1337
P.S., I'm new to editing Wikipedia, so I'm terribly sorry if I violated any rules. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Foofighter1337 ( talk • contribs) 08:52, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
I plan to add the
hAudio microformat to this template; but first it would be useful to have the parameters of {{
Track listing/Track}} documented. Can anyone oblige with that, please?
Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing);
Andy's talk;
Andy's edits 18:27, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
{{Tracklist/Track}}
This documentation is still required, please. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 18:39, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
I have redesigned the template in " /sandbox2" to auto-widen for long titles to fit the full page width, if needed. There have been multiple problems with the table width:
The new revision will auto-widen the track-table when titles are very long, and no longer leave white-space at the end of the table, unless using new parameter marginright=10em. - Wikid77 04:42, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
The problems of unusual table widths were caused by multiple issues:
Those were fixed, as follows:
The solution involves making the width settings to be optional parameters, but also defaulting the column widths in pixels (such as 270px, not as percent 60%) to fit the size of the titles given. When a user widens a browser screen, then the table will auto-widen to fit the space, but not wider than needed. - Wikid77 15:22, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Rather than span the entire page, an auto-widened table tends to be only as wide, as needed, to fit the actual titles, writers, and other entries for a specific album. For years, the display of track-tables had been geared to span across wide laptop screens, where track tables were typically very wide tables, similar to accountant ledger sheets. Now, the spacing between columns will be controlled, if needed, by setting the spacer gapwidth=35px (or similar) when wide tables are needed in an article. For a list of other parameters used to widen a table, see subtopic below: " #Customizing auto-widened tables". - Wikid77 19:25, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
With the table columns defined by pixel widths ("270px" or "95px"), it is possible to precisely set the width of each column, and now spacer-gap columns will be used to spread columns across a page. This capability is needed for WP:Featured articles, where the quality of typesetting can be an important issue.
The new parameters, for width-control, are as follows:
When there are multiple track-tables, stacked together as a set, it might be necessary to set each table with titlewidth=350px (or similar) so that short-title tables align with long-title tables. By default, each track-table will auto-widen to fit whatever long titles are listed. So the various techniques for aligning multiple track-tables are:
In rare cases, such as group song collaborations, it might be necessary to insert multiple "<br>" breaks in a Writer's list, so as to wrap all the names down the screen. There is no " one size fits all" plan for displaying tracks of an album, so that's why customizing of column widths is needed, in rare cases. Consider users with narrow windows, versus wide laptop screens. Sometimes, an extremely long title should be force-wrapped by inserting a "<br>" break. - Wikid77 ( talk) 19:26, 3 May 2010
The examples below show the current table-format, versus the proposed /sandbox2 table-format for various album tracks. The difference is most obvious when the browser text-size is increased (as with sight-impaired users) or the browser window is narrowed to 800x600 width, or even narrower for hand-held devices.
Current revision:
No. | Title | Writer(s) | Length |
---|---|---|---|
1. | " Good Times Bad Times" (from Led Zeppelin, 1969) | Bonham, Jones, Page | 2:48 |
2. | " Communication Breakdown" (from Led Zeppelin, 1969) | Bonham, Jones, Page | 2:30 |
3. | " Dazed and Confused" (from Led Zeppelin, 1969) | Page | 6:27 |
4. | " Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" (from Led Zeppelin, 1969) | Bredon, Page, Plant | 6:42 |
No. | Title | Writer(s) | Length |
---|---|---|---|
1. | " The Song Remains the Same" (from Houses of the Holy, 1973) | Page, Plant | 5:31 |
2. | " Over the Hills and Far Away" (from Houses of the Holy, 1973) | Page, Plant | 4:50 |
Proposed /sandbox2:
{{track listing/sandbox2 | titlewidth=350px | headline = Disc one | total_length = | writing_credits = yes | title1 = [[Good Times Bad Times]] | note1 = from ''[[Led Zeppelin (album)|Led Zeppelin]]'', 1969 | writer1 = [[John Bonham|Bonham]], [[John Paul Jones (musician)|Jones]], [[Jimmy Page|Page]] | length1 = 2:48 | title2 = [[Communication Breakdown]] | note2 = from ''Led Zeppelin'', 1969 | writer2 = Bonham, Jones, Page | length2 = 2:30 | title3 = [[Dazed and Confused (song)#Led Zeppelin studio recording|Dazed and Confused]] | note3 = from ''Led Zeppelin'', 1969 | writer3 = Page | length3 = 6:27 | title4 = [[Babe I'm Gonna Leave You#Led Zeppelin version|Babe I'm Gonna Leave You]] | note4 = from ''Led Zeppelin'', 1969 | writer4 = [[Anne Bredon|Bredon]], Page, [[Robert Plant|Plant]] | length4 = 6:42 }} {{track listing/sandbox2 | titlewidth=350px | headline = Disc two | total_length = | writing_credits = yes | title1 = [[The Song Remains the Same (song)|The Song Remains the Same]] | note1 = from ''[[Houses of the Holy]]'', 1973 | writer1 = [[Jimmy Page|Page]], [[Robert Plant|Plant]] | length1 = 5:31 | title2 = [[Over the Hills and Far Away (Led Zeppelin song)|Over the Hills and Far Away]] | note2 = from ''Houses of the Holy'', 1973 | writer2 = Page, Plant | length2 = 4:50 }}
For wide-screen windows, the examples for the current version & /sandbox2 will appear similar in table width. When set properly, the title-column will have the same width for each disc in a set. Again, the track-tables should still be readable with large browser text-size settings, per the WP:Accessibility policy. - Wikid77 ( talk) 13:06, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
I was honestly unsure of where to place this, as the "auto-widen/width" topic has been split off into several sub-topics, but since I'm giving an example with my concern, I figured I would place it here. I think the width issue needs to be rethought, as while I can see the need for it to be adjusted for those with smaller screens, the changes are having an undesired effect on larger screens (if you ask me.) Take a look at this "real world" example of a busier table than the example shown:
{{tracklist | collapsed = yes | headline = Original Template: K.O.D. | extra_column = Producer(s) | total_length = 77:49 | writing_credits = yes | title1 = Show Me a God | note1 = | writer1 = A. Yates | extra1 = Matic Lee | length1 = 3:41 | title2 = The Warning (Skit) | note2 = | writer2 = S. Watson | extra2 = Seven | length2 = 0:31 | title3 = Demons | note3 = featuring [[Three 6 Mafia]] | writer3 = A. Yates, J. Houston, P. Beauregard | extra3 = Matic Lee & Seven | length3 = 5:23 | title4 = Blackened The Sun | note4 = | writer4 = A. Yates | extra4 = [[Reuben 'Bonyx' Armstrong|Ruben Armstrong]] | length4 = 4:26 | title5 = Strange Music Box | note5 = featuring [[Brotha Lynch Hung]] & [[Krizz Kaliko]] | writer5 = A. Yates, K. Mann, S. Watson | extra5 = YoungFyre & Karbon <small>({{Tooltip|add. prod.|Additional Production}})</small> | length5 = 4:11 | title6 = Sundae (Skit) | note6 = | writer6 = | extra6 = Robert Rebeck | length6 = 0:25 | title7 = Check Yo Temperature | note7 = featuring [[Sundae (rapper)|Sundae]] & [[T-Nutty]] | writer7 = A. Yates, S. Austin, T. Jones Jr. | extra7 = YoungFyre & Demolish Beatz <small>({{Tooltip|add. prod.|Additional Production}})</small> | length7 = 4:32 | title8 = B. Boy | note8 = featuring [[Big Scoob]], [[Bumpy Knuckles]], [[Kutt Calhoun]] & [[Skatterman & Snug Brim|Skatterman]] | writer8 = A. Yates, M. Calhoun Jr., S. Ashby Jr., S. Landis | extra8 = YoungFyre & Karbon <small>({{Tooltip|add. prod.|Additional Production}})</small> | length8 = 5:29 | title9 = Hunterish | note9 = featuring [[Irv Da Phenom]] & [[Krizz Kaliko]] | writer9 = A. Yates, M. Irving Jr., S. Watson | extra9 = YoungFyre | length9 = 3:47 | title10 = The Pick Up (Skit) | note10 = | writer10 = A. Yates | extra10 = Robert Rebeck | length10 = 1:15 | title11 = In The Trunk | note11 = | writer11 = A. Yates | extra11 = [[Reuben 'Bonyx' Armstrong|Ruben Armstrong]] | length11 = 4:25 | title12 = Pinocchiho | note12 = | writer12 = A. Yates | extra12 = Matic Lee | length12 = 2:10 | title13 = Horns | note13 = featuring [[King Gordy]] & [[Prozak (rapper)|Prozak]] | writer13 = A. Yates, S. Shippy, W. Alford II | extra13 = Robert Rebeck | length13 = 3:59 | title14 = Interview With [[Jason Whitlock]] (Skit) | note14 = | writer14 = | extra14 = Robert Rebeck & Seven | length14 = 2:21 | title15 = It Was An Accident | note15 = featuring [[Alan Wayne]] | writer15 = A. Yates, Wayne | extra15 = Seven | length15 = 3:44 | title16 = Shadows On The Road | note16 = | writer16 = A. Yates, S. Watson | extra16 = Seven | length16 = 3:28 | title17 = Low | note17 = | writer17 = A. Yates, S. Watson | extra17 = [[Reuben 'Bonyx' Armstrong|Ruben Armstrong]] | length17 = 3:33 | title18 = Messages (Skit) | note18 = | writer18 = | extra18 = Robert Rebeck | length18 = 1:38 | title19 = Killing You | note19 = | writer19 = A. Yates, S. Watson | extra19 = Matic Lee & Seven | length19 = 3:36 | title20 = Leave Me Alone | note20 = | writer20 = A. Yates, S. Watson | extra20 = YoungFyre & Karbon <small>({{Tooltip|add. prod.|Additional Production}})</small> | length20 = 3:52 | title21 = Prayer - By Brother K.T. (Skit) | note21 = | writer21 = K. Taylor | extra21 = Robert Rebeck | length21 = 0:42 | title22 = K.O.D. | note22 = featuring [[Mackenzie O'Guin]] | writer22 = A. Yates, B. Fraser, S. Watson | extra22 = Seven | length22 = 5:14 | title23 = The Martini | note23 = featuring [[Krizz Kaliko]] | writer23 = A. Yates, S. Watson | extra23 = YoungFyre | length23 = 5:27 }} {{track listing/sandbox2 | collapsed = yes | headline = Proposed Revision Template: K.O.D. | extra_column = Producer(s) | total_length = 77:49 | writing_credits = yes | title1 = Show Me a God | note1 = | writer1 = A. Yates | extra1 = Matic Lee | length1 = 3:41 | title2 = The Warning (Skit) | note2 = | writer2 = S. Watson | extra2 = Seven | length2 = 0:31 | title3 = Demons | note3 = featuring [[Three 6 Mafia]] | writer3 = A. Yates, J. Houston, P. Beauregard | extra3 = Matic Lee & Seven | length3 = 5:23 | title4 = Blackened The Sun | note4 = | writer4 = A. Yates | extra4 = [[Reuben 'Bonyx' Armstrong|Ruben Armstrong]] | length4 = 4:26 | title5 = Strange Music Box | note5 = featuring [[Brotha Lynch Hung]] & [[Krizz Kaliko]] | writer5 = A. Yates, K. Mann, S. Watson | extra5 = YoungFyre & Karbon <small>({{Tooltip|add. prod.|Additional Production}})</small> | length5 = 4:11 | title6 = Sundae (Skit) | note6 = | writer6 = | extra6 = Robert Rebeck | length6 = 0:25 | title7 = Check Yo Temperature | note7 = featuring [[Sundae (rapper)|Sundae]] & [[T-Nutty]] | writer7 = A. Yates, S. Austin, T. Jones Jr. | extra7 = YoungFyre & Demolish Beatz <small>({{Tooltip|add. prod.|Additional Production}})</small> | length7 = 4:32 | title8 = B. Boy | note8 = featuring [[Big Scoob]], [[Bumpy Knuckles]], [[Kutt Calhoun]] & [[Skatterman & Snug Brim|Skatterman]] | writer8 = A. Yates, M. Calhoun Jr., S. Ashby Jr., S. Landis | extra8 = YoungFyre & Karbon <small>({{Tooltip|add. prod.|Additional Production}})</small> | length8 = 5:29 | title9 = Hunterish | note9 = featuring [[Irv Da Phenom]] & [[Krizz Kaliko]] | writer9 = A. Yates, M. Irving Jr., S. Watson | extra9 = YoungFyre | length9 = 3:47 | title10 = The Pick Up (Skit) | note10 = | writer10 = A. Yates | extra10 = Robert Rebeck | length10 = 1:15 | title11 = In The Trunk | note11 = | writer11 = A. Yates | extra11 = [[Reuben 'Bonyx' Armstrong|Ruben Armstrong]] | length11 = 4:25 | title12 = Pinocchiho | note12 = | writer12 = A. Yates | extra12 = Matic Lee | length12 = 2:10 | title13 = Horns | note13 = featuring [[King Gordy]] & [[Prozak (rapper)|Prozak]] | writer13 = A. Yates, S. Shippy, W. Alford II | extra13 = Robert Rebeck | length13 = 3:59 | title14 = Interview With [[Jason Whitlock]] (Skit) | note14 = | writer14 = | extra14 = Robert Rebeck & Seven | length14 = 2:21 | title15 = It Was An Accident | note15 = featuring [[Alan Wayne]] | writer15 = A. Yates, Wayne | extra15 = Seven | length15 = 3:44 | title16 = Shadows On The Road | note16 = | writer16 = A. Yates, S. Watson | extra16 = Seven | length16 = 3:28 | title17 = Low | note17 = | writer17 = A. Yates, S. Watson | extra17 = [[Reuben 'Bonyx' Armstrong|Ruben Armstrong]] | length17 = 3:33 | title18 = Messages (Skit) | note18 = | writer18 = | extra18 = Robert Rebeck | length18 = 1:38 | title19 = Killing You | note19 = | writer19 = A. Yates, S. Watson | extra19 = Matic Lee & Seven | length19 = 3:36 | title20 = Leave Me Alone | note20 = | writer20 = A. Yates, S. Watson | extra20 = YoungFyre & Karbon <small>({{Tooltip|add. prod.|Additional Production}})</small> | length20 = 3:52 | title21 = Prayer - By Brother K.T. (Skit) | note21 = | writer21 = K. Taylor | extra21 = Robert Rebeck | length21 = 0:42 | title22 = K.O.D. | note22 = featuring [[Mackenzie O'Guin]] | writer22 = A. Yates, B. Fraser, S. Watson | extra22 = Seven | length22 = 5:14 | title23 = The Martini | note23 = featuring [[Krizz Kaliko]] | writer23 = A. Yates, S. Watson | extra23 = YoungFyre | length23 = 5:27 }}
The proposed version is unnecessarily scrunching the table and causing wraps that aren't needed on larger screens. As stated, I can understand needed to adjust the template so it plays nicer with smaller screens, but I don't think that should come as a penalty to larger ones. You have implemented the width option to override the default width, but by default I think it should better adapt to the screen size.
This example also brings up a tiny issue that I think should perhaps been looked into. In the example of the revised version, I have a total_length set, as well as addtotal (which, perhaps should be "add_length" or "add_total_length"?) and it results in both being shown. Now obviously this isn't the "correct" usage, but I think the template should have some kind of check for this type of redundancy. I believe only one value should be shown (if possible). In that case, I think manual should override auto. – Mizery Made ( talk · contribs) 19:07, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
04-May-2010: In general, the use of auto-widened track-tables should require editing of only a few album articles, to migrate into the new format, such as using customized width parameters. As could be expected, during prior years, many articles have already placed images, or infoboxes, alongside the track tables, to limit their extreme width on wide, laptop screens. In many cases, those track-tables (viewed on laptops) will appear only slightly narrower, in width, when auto-widened to fit long titles. The greatest gains, in table readability, will come in tables with just Title+Length, or to users of narrow-window screens, such as on desktop monitors, or narrow half-screen windows. Because most music tracks have titles with fewer than 10 words, the vast majority of auto-widened tables should appear "normal" even if narrower than before. The greatest surprises will come in tables with one extremely long title, or 4 people writing a single song, and those tables should be customized, such as splitting the long title (with "<br>") to avoid an excessively-wide table, due to one long song title or 4-6 songwriters (etc.). In migrating to auto-widened tables, the new customized width parameters (titlewidth=350px, gapwidth=25px, width=585px, or mr=10px) will allow refining the appearance of track-tables in WP:Featured articles, for the first time in years. In general, spot-check several, perhaps 29, of the "somewhat popular albums of all time" to ensure that the most surprising table layouts have been adjusted. Far more albums in articles, now, will gain clearer track-tables, rather than become awkward, or unbalanced, lists of recordings. No longer will 2 columns of a track-table have words which run-together, such as the last word of a title join to a Writer, as word+name ("Bridge over TroubledPaul Simon"). On balance, most track-tables should appear clearer than before. - Wikid77 ( talk) 03:17, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
The new parameter "endnotes=XXX" (in /sandbox2) would put text at the bottom of a track-table, with the default endnotes_color=#F3F3F3 (light gray). Many readers have wide laptop screens, so extra thought is needed to design tables to also fit in narrow square windows (such as 800x600). For testing as square windows, the table width can be restricted as width=585px, then observe the spacing of table columns. Only some browsers auto-widen the columns to fit longer text, so the handling of extra-wide text could be helped by putting a bottom end-note to explain the entry "4 authors[a]" and defining note [a] with new parameter "endnote=[a] - The 4 authors are...". For multiple notes [a], [b], [c] (etc.), the endnote text could contain "<br>" breaks or use the colon-indent for each note line after "| endnotes=".
{{track listing/sandbox2 | writing_credits = yes | title1 = Number One Song | note1 = [a] | writer1 = (5 writers<sup>[b]</sup>) | endnotes_color = #F0F0F0 | endnotes=Notes:<br> [a] - This song was recorded in 1 take, selected as best version.<br> [b] - The 5 writers are Paul McCartney, John Lennon, C, D & E. | length1= 4.13 | title2 = Yet Another Song | writer2=John Doe | length2 = 3.26 | title3 = Now a Short Song | writer3=Jane Dohe | length3 = 1.58 | addtotal=yes }}
The endnotes (above), in markup language, spans 3 lines, as follows:
| endnotes_color = #F0F0F0 | endnotes=Notes:<br> [a] - This song was recorded in 1 take, selected as best version.<br> [b] - The 5 writers are Paul McCartney, John Lennon, C, D & E. | length1= 4:13
The endnotes=xxx is basically free-form text, to allow any style of table footnotes. The use of note letters "[a]" & "[b]" is customary, to distinguish from an article's numbered footnotes [1], [2], [3] (etc.). Those letters can have the "sup" superscript tag ("<sup>[b]</sup>"). Now, with an article intended for young readers, the first note could be clarified to emphasize its location inside the table: "(see table note: [a])" being more obvious to young readers. As always, any use of reftag footnotes will list those notes at the bottom of the page in the Notes/References sections. By using endnotes=xxx, there will no longer be a need to force any column to contain an extremely long entry. - Wikid77 ( talk) 17:49, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
The new parameter "addtotal=yes" (in
/sandbox2) will add the track lengths (minutes/seconds in dot colon format mm:ss) and show the total of those numbers (length1 + length2 + length3...) at the bottom of the Length column. The total would be in the same location as with parameter "total_length=mm:ss". However, the sum of minutes/seconds for addtotal=yes would be calculated, live, by adding each of the parameters (length1=mm:ss) in the track-table. -
Wikid77 (
talk) 19:56, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
06-May-2010: I agree that having 2 track-list templates is a better solution: in a volunteer project, it is too difficult to expect everyone to take time to consider, and refine, all the new options "forced" onto everyone, as a single track-list template. A new Template:Tracklist_custom, as a vanguard template providing new features, will lessen the impact to all those 15,000(?) album articles, and allow long-term live testing of features, so more people will have ample time to evaluate the impact of new features. Some new features, after being evaluated in {Tracklist_custom}, long-term, could then be added into {Track listing}, after many people have taken the time to consider the new functionality. Again, volunteers do not have time to evaluate the potential of widespread changes to over 15,000 articles, in a few weeks. The 2nd template would simplify the exploration of new features, without scaring the current users about impacts to the other 15,000 articles. We would annotate the documentation subpages to note the use of those 2 templates (one for most articles, the other for custom tables, with similarity between the two), allowing a broader range of features to support the entire user base of Wikipedia. - Wikid77 ( talk) 00:47, 6 May 2010 (UTC)