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Just "edited boldly" and changed the Remembrance section as follows, using two links:
He had great influence to the holocaust. Pls read Mohammad Amin al-Husayni and youtube video [ [1]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Santiago84 ( talk • contribs) 01:28, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
With other words: just because you never heard of him means that he and his influence never existed? Lets make this easy. Here is a picture:
The right person is Adolf Hitler, the left person is Mohammad Amin al-Husayni. He was the Leader of a lot of Moslems, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Leader of the Palestinains and he spent world war 2 at Hitlers side. There are several books in existence which name Mohammed Amin Al-Husseini as a comitter. Youtube Video: [ [2]] and [ [3]] This is no propaganda, these are conclusions of historicans and universities. -- Santiago84 ( talk) 12:40, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Calm down, it is not my original research nor uncivil. It is an historical fact. [note 1] [note 2] [note 3] [note 4] [note 5] And lot more references. Again, this is not a theory i developed. These are historical facts. I cantrealize why you dont understand this. Even on the Wikipedia article of him these facts and many more information are mentioned. Various people also tried to add informations here. -- Santiago84 ( talk) 14:42, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
He signed contracts about the extermination of Jews in europe and the arab world. How can you say that he had no role or wasnt responsible for the holocaust? Again, just because it opposes your personal believe doesnt give you permission to delete valid additions based on references. -- Santiago84 ( talk) 04:18, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
Inside the references of Mohammad Amin al-Husayni page are a lot of historicans named. Read them!. -- Santiago84 ( talk) 04:37, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
References for this section
This template should contain a link to the Joint Declaration by Members of the United Nations, the first Allied acknowledgement of the Holocaust, but I don't see any relevant section in this template. Raul654 ( talk) 20:06, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
I've given it some thought. I think it might be worthwhile to add a section "Allied response" or perhaps "Western response". It would have links to Joint Declaration by Members of the United Nations and Auschwitz bombing debate (neither of which are included on this template but probably should be) and Nuremberg Trials (currently in the "Aftermath" section). I'm sure there are other articles out there that should also be included. Raul654 ( talk) 18:30, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
I thought I would take a minute to explain to you why I have introduced changes to this template. One reason for changing the templates is to improve accessibility for visually impaired users using a screen reader. Whenever a screen reader encounters a dot, it calls out the word "dot". The material presents as a lot of tiny disjointed paragraphs rather than a list. With the new mark-up, the screen reader will announce that a list is coming, and then will proceed to read out the items on the list. Application of the hlist and plainlist class is about presenting the material as actual lists, which helps not just people with vision issues, but those viewing the site using phones and other non-traditional devices. Search engines also will read lists better.
The use of the dots is now deprecated, and have been since August. Each dot requires the application of a template, and templates are expensive, as they increase server load. There are limits as to how many templates can be placed on a page. Application of the latest method, using plainlist to create the lists, results in a reduction in post-expand include size of 22% and a reduction in template argument size of 24% on this template. This is a substantial improvement that will lead to quicker load times for pages and a better experience for our viewing audience.
The transition has not been trouble free; some kinks have had to be ironed out, and there may still be a ways to go. However, we have the templates displaying adequately in the two latest versions of the problematic Internet Explorer (IE8 and IE9), and we can't hold back development of Wikipedia for older, buggy browsers. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions. Sincerely, -- Dianna ( talk)—Preceding undated comment added at 06:46, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Can anyone explain to me why Serbs are included as victims in this template? They were, of course, subject to genocidal policies implemented by the Ustase which resulted in about 200,000deaths, but this was not the work of Nazi Germany, it was the work of the Ustase. Do we include any ethnic group that were killed by their collaborationist government during WWII, or are we defining it as per the Holocaust article as those killed by Nazi Germany? Peacemaker67 ( talk) 12:55, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
Please do put some time and effort into looking at what the following 3 sources have to say about the Serbian victims of the Holocaust:
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/ , http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/jasenovac// , http://www.yadvashem.org/
It would be insensible for us to exclude ethnic Serbs from this list of Holocaust victims. Until you can actually prove that ethnic Serbs were – in fact – NOT Holocaust victims, then we really should include them under this list. I really can’t see why we should exclude them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tulipsword ( talk • contribs) 19:41, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
As for you "insisting", nobody insists anything on Wikipedia. This is a collaborative project, and we operate solely by consensus. I ask that you review WP:CON. If the template is changed to include Serbs, it will be because we have achieved consensus, not because anyone has insisted on it.
Thirdly, and I am repeating myself here, the onus to include the Serbs in the template is on those wanting to include Serbs in the template. Please review WP:ONUS. It isn't up to anyone else to provide sources proving a negative. Please stop insisting that other people provide sources - I do not need to provide sources simply because I want this template to adhere to WP:V and WP:RS. Your time and efforts would be much better spent providing the necessary sources (and links thereto) and showing how they support your proposition, rather than making inappropriate and unnecessary demands on others. -- Skeezix1000 ( talk) 15:12, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Peacemaker, removing ethnic Serbs from the list would amount to excluding them. Clearly, we have not reached a consensus, yet.
What I propose is that we make some adjustments to the template so that it is more consistent with what is being stated in the Wikipedia article titled “The Holocaust”, which the template in question is directly associated with. The following is taken from the introduction of the article titled “The Holocaust”:
“The Holocaust (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστος holókaustos: hólos, "whole" and kaustós, "burnt")[2] also known as the Shoah (Hebrew: השואה, HaShoah, "catastrophe"; Yiddish: חורבן, Churben or Hurban, from the Hebrew for "destruction"), was the mass murder or genocide of approximately six million Jews during World War II, a programme of systematic state-sponsored murder by Nazi Germany, led by Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party, throughout German-occupied territory.[3][4] Of the nine million Jews who had resided in Europe before the Holocaust, approximately two-thirds were killed.[5] Over one million Jewish children were killed in the Holocaust, as were approximately two million Jewish women and three million Jewish men.[6][7]
Some scholars argue that the mass murder of the Romani and people with disabilities should be included in the definition [of the Holocaust],[8][9] and some use the common noun "holocaust" to describe other Nazi mass murders, including those of Soviet prisoners of war, Polish and Soviet civilians, and homosexuals.[10][11] Recent estimates based on figures obtained since the fall of the Soviet Union indicates some ten to 11 million civilians and prisoners of war were intentionally murdered by the Nazi regime.[12][13]“
The title of the list in question is “victims”. “Victims” of what, though? “The Holocaust” against European Jewry (and, depending on which definition of “the Holocaust” you accept, Romani and disabled people)? If so, then Poles, homosexuals, Serbs, Soviet civilians, Jehovah’s witnesses, et cetera should not be included. If we are talking about the broader spectrum of “victims” who also suffered “a holocaust” alongside Jews, though, then we should absolutely – for the sake of decency, knowledge, and righteousness – include Poles, homosexuals, Soviet civilians, Serbs, Jehovah’s Witnesses, et cetera.
What I really do believe we should do is indicate by way of a footnote that what we mean here by “victims” is the broader spectrum of victims. And under this broad list of victims should be ethnic Serbs because there is no doubt that “a holocaust” was perpetrated against them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tulipsword ( talk • contribs) 03:21, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
I would just like to reiterate my previous point that Serbian people killed by the Ustase are not to my knowledge included in any tally of Holocaust victims, and if you have some sources that say otherwise, I would appreciate it if you could post them here for review. -- Dianna ( talk) 22:11, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
I will not be reponding on this topic any further, but will continue to watch. -- Dianna ( talk) 23:15, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
Please read the lead of The Holocaust. I have posted on the talk page of that article about this issue, as that is the appropriate place for the discussion. Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 00:25, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
Hi Tulipsword,
Since your comment was related to this article I will reply here.
During WWII state-sponsored Fascists killed millions of people in Holocaust because of their ethnicity. Just because they were Jews, Gypsies or some of the Slavic peoples. Among them were also Serbs murdered because they were Serbs. Although I believe this is obviously WP:SKY IS BLUE case I presented sources which support it. Therefore I can conclude that consensus is reached based on:
and that Serb victims of Holocaust should be, of course, included to this template. Will they be included? No. Why? You might (but just might) be able to understand why if you decide to be persistent with this issue. I recommend you not to waste your time and energy about it. Read the advice Marsellus Wallace gave to Butch. The one which starts with "The night of the fight, you may feel a slight sting...." -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 15:09, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
That Poles, homosexuals, Romani, Soviet civilians, and others are being included – alongside Jews – under the list of so-called “victims” in the template of interest implies that what is being meant by “victims” here is the wider-spectrum of victims. Ethnic Serbs are – undeniably – part of this “mosaic of victims” (The phrase "mosaic of victims" is taken from Michael Berenbaum, ed., A Mosaic of Victims: Non-Jews Persecuted and Murdered by the Nazis (New York: New York University Press, 1990).
Wikipedia operates by consensus. I do not agree with removing ethnic Serbs from the list of interest for the very good reasons that I have been giving for the past few days. Peacemaker has never directly confronted any of my arguments and, yet, insists that ethnic Serbs be erased from the list of “victims” – despite my persistent protests.
Please consider the following taken from the scholarly article “Circles of Hell: Jewish and Non-Jewish Victims of the Nazis” by Mary Johnson and Carol Rittner:
“Some scholars refer to the relationship between the Jewish and the non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust as "the many circles of hell in Dante's Inferno." The Jews occupy the center, with the other victims extending outward in concentric rings. Michael Berenbaum has argued that in order to comprehend the Jewish center, one must "fully probe the ripple effects as well as the indis-putable core."”
The topic of “the Holocaust” and “Nazi terror” is a very important and sensitive one. When the public wants to learn about how this topic, usually they will go onto the internet and see what Wikipedia says. What is being done here is Holocaust revisionism and it must stop. Removing ethnic Serbs from what is – clearly – a “mosaic of victims” list is disgusting because it amounts to erasing the names and memories of people who were being systematically murdered because of something they couldn’t change about themselves – their ethnicity. I will be re-adding ethnic Serbs to the “mosaic of victims” list.
Tulipsword ( talk) 06:38, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
There is a discussion at Template talk:The Holocaust (end) which may affect the naming of this template. -- NSH002 ( talk) 07:11, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
The Holocaust sidebar template. |
|
Archives:
1,
2,
3Auto-archiving period: 90 days
![]() |
![]() | Military history: World War II Template‑class | ||||||||||||||||||
|
Just "edited boldly" and changed the Remembrance section as follows, using two links:
He had great influence to the holocaust. Pls read Mohammad Amin al-Husayni and youtube video [ [1]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Santiago84 ( talk • contribs) 01:28, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
With other words: just because you never heard of him means that he and his influence never existed? Lets make this easy. Here is a picture:
The right person is Adolf Hitler, the left person is Mohammad Amin al-Husayni. He was the Leader of a lot of Moslems, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Leader of the Palestinains and he spent world war 2 at Hitlers side. There are several books in existence which name Mohammed Amin Al-Husseini as a comitter. Youtube Video: [ [2]] and [ [3]] This is no propaganda, these are conclusions of historicans and universities. -- Santiago84 ( talk) 12:40, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Calm down, it is not my original research nor uncivil. It is an historical fact. [note 1] [note 2] [note 3] [note 4] [note 5] And lot more references. Again, this is not a theory i developed. These are historical facts. I cantrealize why you dont understand this. Even on the Wikipedia article of him these facts and many more information are mentioned. Various people also tried to add informations here. -- Santiago84 ( talk) 14:42, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
He signed contracts about the extermination of Jews in europe and the arab world. How can you say that he had no role or wasnt responsible for the holocaust? Again, just because it opposes your personal believe doesnt give you permission to delete valid additions based on references. -- Santiago84 ( talk) 04:18, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
Inside the references of Mohammad Amin al-Husayni page are a lot of historicans named. Read them!. -- Santiago84 ( talk) 04:37, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
References for this section
This template should contain a link to the Joint Declaration by Members of the United Nations, the first Allied acknowledgement of the Holocaust, but I don't see any relevant section in this template. Raul654 ( talk) 20:06, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
I've given it some thought. I think it might be worthwhile to add a section "Allied response" or perhaps "Western response". It would have links to Joint Declaration by Members of the United Nations and Auschwitz bombing debate (neither of which are included on this template but probably should be) and Nuremberg Trials (currently in the "Aftermath" section). I'm sure there are other articles out there that should also be included. Raul654 ( talk) 18:30, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
I thought I would take a minute to explain to you why I have introduced changes to this template. One reason for changing the templates is to improve accessibility for visually impaired users using a screen reader. Whenever a screen reader encounters a dot, it calls out the word "dot". The material presents as a lot of tiny disjointed paragraphs rather than a list. With the new mark-up, the screen reader will announce that a list is coming, and then will proceed to read out the items on the list. Application of the hlist and plainlist class is about presenting the material as actual lists, which helps not just people with vision issues, but those viewing the site using phones and other non-traditional devices. Search engines also will read lists better.
The use of the dots is now deprecated, and have been since August. Each dot requires the application of a template, and templates are expensive, as they increase server load. There are limits as to how many templates can be placed on a page. Application of the latest method, using plainlist to create the lists, results in a reduction in post-expand include size of 22% and a reduction in template argument size of 24% on this template. This is a substantial improvement that will lead to quicker load times for pages and a better experience for our viewing audience.
The transition has not been trouble free; some kinks have had to be ironed out, and there may still be a ways to go. However, we have the templates displaying adequately in the two latest versions of the problematic Internet Explorer (IE8 and IE9), and we can't hold back development of Wikipedia for older, buggy browsers. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions. Sincerely, -- Dianna ( talk)—Preceding undated comment added at 06:46, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Can anyone explain to me why Serbs are included as victims in this template? They were, of course, subject to genocidal policies implemented by the Ustase which resulted in about 200,000deaths, but this was not the work of Nazi Germany, it was the work of the Ustase. Do we include any ethnic group that were killed by their collaborationist government during WWII, or are we defining it as per the Holocaust article as those killed by Nazi Germany? Peacemaker67 ( talk) 12:55, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
Please do put some time and effort into looking at what the following 3 sources have to say about the Serbian victims of the Holocaust:
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/ , http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/jasenovac// , http://www.yadvashem.org/
It would be insensible for us to exclude ethnic Serbs from this list of Holocaust victims. Until you can actually prove that ethnic Serbs were – in fact – NOT Holocaust victims, then we really should include them under this list. I really can’t see why we should exclude them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tulipsword ( talk • contribs) 19:41, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
As for you "insisting", nobody insists anything on Wikipedia. This is a collaborative project, and we operate solely by consensus. I ask that you review WP:CON. If the template is changed to include Serbs, it will be because we have achieved consensus, not because anyone has insisted on it.
Thirdly, and I am repeating myself here, the onus to include the Serbs in the template is on those wanting to include Serbs in the template. Please review WP:ONUS. It isn't up to anyone else to provide sources proving a negative. Please stop insisting that other people provide sources - I do not need to provide sources simply because I want this template to adhere to WP:V and WP:RS. Your time and efforts would be much better spent providing the necessary sources (and links thereto) and showing how they support your proposition, rather than making inappropriate and unnecessary demands on others. -- Skeezix1000 ( talk) 15:12, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Peacemaker, removing ethnic Serbs from the list would amount to excluding them. Clearly, we have not reached a consensus, yet.
What I propose is that we make some adjustments to the template so that it is more consistent with what is being stated in the Wikipedia article titled “The Holocaust”, which the template in question is directly associated with. The following is taken from the introduction of the article titled “The Holocaust”:
“The Holocaust (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστος holókaustos: hólos, "whole" and kaustós, "burnt")[2] also known as the Shoah (Hebrew: השואה, HaShoah, "catastrophe"; Yiddish: חורבן, Churben or Hurban, from the Hebrew for "destruction"), was the mass murder or genocide of approximately six million Jews during World War II, a programme of systematic state-sponsored murder by Nazi Germany, led by Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party, throughout German-occupied territory.[3][4] Of the nine million Jews who had resided in Europe before the Holocaust, approximately two-thirds were killed.[5] Over one million Jewish children were killed in the Holocaust, as were approximately two million Jewish women and three million Jewish men.[6][7]
Some scholars argue that the mass murder of the Romani and people with disabilities should be included in the definition [of the Holocaust],[8][9] and some use the common noun "holocaust" to describe other Nazi mass murders, including those of Soviet prisoners of war, Polish and Soviet civilians, and homosexuals.[10][11] Recent estimates based on figures obtained since the fall of the Soviet Union indicates some ten to 11 million civilians and prisoners of war were intentionally murdered by the Nazi regime.[12][13]“
The title of the list in question is “victims”. “Victims” of what, though? “The Holocaust” against European Jewry (and, depending on which definition of “the Holocaust” you accept, Romani and disabled people)? If so, then Poles, homosexuals, Serbs, Soviet civilians, Jehovah’s witnesses, et cetera should not be included. If we are talking about the broader spectrum of “victims” who also suffered “a holocaust” alongside Jews, though, then we should absolutely – for the sake of decency, knowledge, and righteousness – include Poles, homosexuals, Soviet civilians, Serbs, Jehovah’s Witnesses, et cetera.
What I really do believe we should do is indicate by way of a footnote that what we mean here by “victims” is the broader spectrum of victims. And under this broad list of victims should be ethnic Serbs because there is no doubt that “a holocaust” was perpetrated against them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tulipsword ( talk • contribs) 03:21, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
I would just like to reiterate my previous point that Serbian people killed by the Ustase are not to my knowledge included in any tally of Holocaust victims, and if you have some sources that say otherwise, I would appreciate it if you could post them here for review. -- Dianna ( talk) 22:11, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
I will not be reponding on this topic any further, but will continue to watch. -- Dianna ( talk) 23:15, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
Please read the lead of The Holocaust. I have posted on the talk page of that article about this issue, as that is the appropriate place for the discussion. Peacemaker67 ( send... over) 00:25, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
Hi Tulipsword,
Since your comment was related to this article I will reply here.
During WWII state-sponsored Fascists killed millions of people in Holocaust because of their ethnicity. Just because they were Jews, Gypsies or some of the Slavic peoples. Among them were also Serbs murdered because they were Serbs. Although I believe this is obviously WP:SKY IS BLUE case I presented sources which support it. Therefore I can conclude that consensus is reached based on:
and that Serb victims of Holocaust should be, of course, included to this template. Will they be included? No. Why? You might (but just might) be able to understand why if you decide to be persistent with this issue. I recommend you not to waste your time and energy about it. Read the advice Marsellus Wallace gave to Butch. The one which starts with "The night of the fight, you may feel a slight sting...." -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 15:09, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
That Poles, homosexuals, Romani, Soviet civilians, and others are being included – alongside Jews – under the list of so-called “victims” in the template of interest implies that what is being meant by “victims” here is the wider-spectrum of victims. Ethnic Serbs are – undeniably – part of this “mosaic of victims” (The phrase "mosaic of victims" is taken from Michael Berenbaum, ed., A Mosaic of Victims: Non-Jews Persecuted and Murdered by the Nazis (New York: New York University Press, 1990).
Wikipedia operates by consensus. I do not agree with removing ethnic Serbs from the list of interest for the very good reasons that I have been giving for the past few days. Peacemaker has never directly confronted any of my arguments and, yet, insists that ethnic Serbs be erased from the list of “victims” – despite my persistent protests.
Please consider the following taken from the scholarly article “Circles of Hell: Jewish and Non-Jewish Victims of the Nazis” by Mary Johnson and Carol Rittner:
“Some scholars refer to the relationship between the Jewish and the non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust as "the many circles of hell in Dante's Inferno." The Jews occupy the center, with the other victims extending outward in concentric rings. Michael Berenbaum has argued that in order to comprehend the Jewish center, one must "fully probe the ripple effects as well as the indis-putable core."”
The topic of “the Holocaust” and “Nazi terror” is a very important and sensitive one. When the public wants to learn about how this topic, usually they will go onto the internet and see what Wikipedia says. What is being done here is Holocaust revisionism and it must stop. Removing ethnic Serbs from what is – clearly – a “mosaic of victims” list is disgusting because it amounts to erasing the names and memories of people who were being systematically murdered because of something they couldn’t change about themselves – their ethnicity. I will be re-adding ethnic Serbs to the “mosaic of victims” list.
Tulipsword ( talk) 06:38, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
There is a discussion at Template talk:The Holocaust (end) which may affect the naming of this template. -- NSH002 ( talk) 07:11, 25 March 2014 (UTC)