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Maronites (including those in Cyprus) and Melkites are not "Syriacs" according to most observers and scholars who wrote about the Middle Eastern ethnic groups or other minorities, some activists are making a mess of all this with no scientific backing at all, the " Syriacs/miniproject" page proves that the purpose is of a political/nationalist/religious nature, nothing to do with the purpose of an encyclopedia. -- Pylambert 22:01, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I changed the title from Syriacs to Syriac Christianity, as the articles included in the box are linked to Syriac Christianity and not to the controversial Syriacs article: there is no such thing as a "Syriacs" ethnic group or nation including all the religious groups mentioned in the box. Those who advocate the use of "Syriacs" instead of " Assyrians" failed to sustain their position with any scientific source (sociology, political science, history, books or articles published in scientific journals or by scientific presses). -- Pylambert 13:38, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Please check out the Final Declaration of the foundation convention of the European Syriac Union, representing the following organisations:
study a little further the subject ... and why not meet some syriacs ! The question of the name of our people is an unresolved question that has been debated for centuries. But all the different "factions" : chaldeans, assyrians, arameans or syriacs allways said that they were one people. and by the way maronites considers themselves syriacs too ! you obviously never met one ...
That is a term used by non Church of the East members given to them by the Byzantines. It was an insult then and an Insult now. Aturaye has always been the name of the nation. Some say Asuraye, Athuraye, or Ashuraye. This is before the British "discovered" them.
If you read the title it says Syriac Christian. Not Syriacs.
At the moment, only Pylambert appears to be objecting to the template. The only objective of the template is to provide a device for showing the various self-appellations of the people who have for centuries been calling themselves Suryoye/Suryaye, an Aramaic name meaning simply "Syrians". More recently, the name "Syriacs" has been coined to avoid confusion with the citizens of the Arab Republic of Syria. -- Benne ['bɛnə] ( talk) 00:24, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Obviously,
Benne coined the term Syriacs himself and wrongfully tries to impose it on wikipedia and on all articles pertaining to Assyrians. This is not acceptable. I always try to put references for statistics (see
Assyrian diaspora e.g.) and for other contributions, or even a larger bibliography when possible (
Assyrians in Iran e.g.).
Benne on the contrary seems to be getting information directly from some voices (like Joan of Arc) and neglects to sustain his modifications and creations by any scientific reference. He even misuses existing references, see above ("Sure there is"). --
Pylambert
00:45, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
I still think that Syriacs could be defined as an ethnicity, based on a common language and religious culture, but to avoid deletion, I moved this template to Syriac Christianity, a title that might just as well or perhaps even better define that shared identity. In the end, though the people have been referred to as Syrians for centuries, the name Syriacs is of quite recent origin, and apparently not accepted by all the people concerned. -- Benne ['bɛnə] ( talk) 21:30, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
This template survived a discussion on TfD. See Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 February 15. - Splash talk 01:31, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't make sense. And if where going to do that then why not add Iraqi arabic and Turkish? Chaldean 23:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Is it that necessary to list it? I thought it would be good to list just the major ones. All these small Churches are really irrelevant as they are fairly new and have contributed to Syriac Christianity very little historically. Chaldean 21:09, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
stop linking to Aramaeans, the article on the pre-Christian people. I realize that modern Assyrians are also called Aramaeans. They are still discussed at Assyrian people, which clearly states "also called Aramaeans" from the very beginning. dab (𒁳) 06:59, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
If we did have an article on " Aramaean Assyrians", as we have " Chaldean Assyrians" or " Syriac Assyrians" (the latter is a particularly pointless coinage), we could link to it. But as long as we don't have an article, we cannot link to it. If we want to create a " Aramaean Assyrians", we would of course need to show that this is a valid subgroup along the lines of " Syriac Assyrians". Looking at the evidence available on-wiki, the situation present itself as follows (please expand and correct):
church |
Syriac Orthodox Syriac Catholic |
Assyrian Church of the East | Chaldean Catholic | Maronite Church |
people/ self-designation | Syriac Assyrians / Aramaeans | Nestorians / Assyrians | Chaldeans | Maronites |
dialect | Bohtan Neo-Aramaic, Mlahsô, Turoyo | Assyrian Neo-Aramaic | Chaldean Neo-Aramaic, Hértevin, Koy Sanjaq Surat, Senaya |
dab (𒁳) 08:28, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
The table is not wholly evident. Not sure if Saint Thomas Christians qualify as a separate cetagory outside of the West/East Syrian scope? Chicbyaccident ( talk) 14:27, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Koavf: Regarding this edit. Please note that the column in question refers to present communions. " Church of the East" is thus misplaced in that column. It is not analogous to the other communions ( Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, etc.). Assyrian Church of the East are Ancient Church of the East are independent communions. That is why there were listed as "Independent" previously. Correctly so. That is why your edit is problematic. Furthermore, Chaldean Catholic Church also descends from the Church of East. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 18:46, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
@ Chicbyaccident: Can you explain how the East Syriac Indian denominations arose out of a West Syriac tradition, as it presents now? Srnec ( talk) 15:14, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
I've changed the date of foundation of the Church of the East from 431 to the 4th century. Although the Nestorian Schism helped to consolidate the Church of the East as a separate church, the existence of the Church as a separate organisation predates the Council of Ephesus—something that's described in the history section of the article for the Church. Better dates would be the Council of Seleucia-Ctesiphon of 410 or the foundation of the Catholicate of Seleucia-Ctesiphon in the early 4th century. I've opted for the latter as the most relevant to this template. Tagging @ PPEMES since they entered 431. — Nizolan (talk) 14:48, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
I.e. Patriarchate of Antioch. The Banner opposed this, but I don't really know of any better solution. Do you have any? The thing is that WP:NPOV has to be satisfied as well. PPEMES ( talk) 14:56, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
This template does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Maronites (including those in Cyprus) and Melkites are not "Syriacs" according to most observers and scholars who wrote about the Middle Eastern ethnic groups or other minorities, some activists are making a mess of all this with no scientific backing at all, the " Syriacs/miniproject" page proves that the purpose is of a political/nationalist/religious nature, nothing to do with the purpose of an encyclopedia. -- Pylambert 22:01, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I changed the title from Syriacs to Syriac Christianity, as the articles included in the box are linked to Syriac Christianity and not to the controversial Syriacs article: there is no such thing as a "Syriacs" ethnic group or nation including all the religious groups mentioned in the box. Those who advocate the use of "Syriacs" instead of " Assyrians" failed to sustain their position with any scientific source (sociology, political science, history, books or articles published in scientific journals or by scientific presses). -- Pylambert 13:38, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Please check out the Final Declaration of the foundation convention of the European Syriac Union, representing the following organisations:
study a little further the subject ... and why not meet some syriacs ! The question of the name of our people is an unresolved question that has been debated for centuries. But all the different "factions" : chaldeans, assyrians, arameans or syriacs allways said that they were one people. and by the way maronites considers themselves syriacs too ! you obviously never met one ...
That is a term used by non Church of the East members given to them by the Byzantines. It was an insult then and an Insult now. Aturaye has always been the name of the nation. Some say Asuraye, Athuraye, or Ashuraye. This is before the British "discovered" them.
If you read the title it says Syriac Christian. Not Syriacs.
At the moment, only Pylambert appears to be objecting to the template. The only objective of the template is to provide a device for showing the various self-appellations of the people who have for centuries been calling themselves Suryoye/Suryaye, an Aramaic name meaning simply "Syrians". More recently, the name "Syriacs" has been coined to avoid confusion with the citizens of the Arab Republic of Syria. -- Benne ['bɛnə] ( talk) 00:24, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Obviously,
Benne coined the term Syriacs himself and wrongfully tries to impose it on wikipedia and on all articles pertaining to Assyrians. This is not acceptable. I always try to put references for statistics (see
Assyrian diaspora e.g.) and for other contributions, or even a larger bibliography when possible (
Assyrians in Iran e.g.).
Benne on the contrary seems to be getting information directly from some voices (like Joan of Arc) and neglects to sustain his modifications and creations by any scientific reference. He even misuses existing references, see above ("Sure there is"). --
Pylambert
00:45, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
I still think that Syriacs could be defined as an ethnicity, based on a common language and religious culture, but to avoid deletion, I moved this template to Syriac Christianity, a title that might just as well or perhaps even better define that shared identity. In the end, though the people have been referred to as Syrians for centuries, the name Syriacs is of quite recent origin, and apparently not accepted by all the people concerned. -- Benne ['bɛnə] ( talk) 21:30, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
This template survived a discussion on TfD. See Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 February 15. - Splash talk 01:31, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't make sense. And if where going to do that then why not add Iraqi arabic and Turkish? Chaldean 23:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Is it that necessary to list it? I thought it would be good to list just the major ones. All these small Churches are really irrelevant as they are fairly new and have contributed to Syriac Christianity very little historically. Chaldean 21:09, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
stop linking to Aramaeans, the article on the pre-Christian people. I realize that modern Assyrians are also called Aramaeans. They are still discussed at Assyrian people, which clearly states "also called Aramaeans" from the very beginning. dab (𒁳) 06:59, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
If we did have an article on " Aramaean Assyrians", as we have " Chaldean Assyrians" or " Syriac Assyrians" (the latter is a particularly pointless coinage), we could link to it. But as long as we don't have an article, we cannot link to it. If we want to create a " Aramaean Assyrians", we would of course need to show that this is a valid subgroup along the lines of " Syriac Assyrians". Looking at the evidence available on-wiki, the situation present itself as follows (please expand and correct):
church |
Syriac Orthodox Syriac Catholic |
Assyrian Church of the East | Chaldean Catholic | Maronite Church |
people/ self-designation | Syriac Assyrians / Aramaeans | Nestorians / Assyrians | Chaldeans | Maronites |
dialect | Bohtan Neo-Aramaic, Mlahsô, Turoyo | Assyrian Neo-Aramaic | Chaldean Neo-Aramaic, Hértevin, Koy Sanjaq Surat, Senaya |
dab (𒁳) 08:28, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
The table is not wholly evident. Not sure if Saint Thomas Christians qualify as a separate cetagory outside of the West/East Syrian scope? Chicbyaccident ( talk) 14:27, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Koavf: Regarding this edit. Please note that the column in question refers to present communions. " Church of the East" is thus misplaced in that column. It is not analogous to the other communions ( Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, etc.). Assyrian Church of the East are Ancient Church of the East are independent communions. That is why there were listed as "Independent" previously. Correctly so. That is why your edit is problematic. Furthermore, Chaldean Catholic Church also descends from the Church of East. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 18:46, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
@ Chicbyaccident: Can you explain how the East Syriac Indian denominations arose out of a West Syriac tradition, as it presents now? Srnec ( talk) 15:14, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
I've changed the date of foundation of the Church of the East from 431 to the 4th century. Although the Nestorian Schism helped to consolidate the Church of the East as a separate church, the existence of the Church as a separate organisation predates the Council of Ephesus—something that's described in the history section of the article for the Church. Better dates would be the Council of Seleucia-Ctesiphon of 410 or the foundation of the Catholicate of Seleucia-Ctesiphon in the early 4th century. I've opted for the latter as the most relevant to this template. Tagging @ PPEMES since they entered 431. — Nizolan (talk) 14:48, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
I.e. Patriarchate of Antioch. The Banner opposed this, but I don't really know of any better solution. Do you have any? The thing is that WP:NPOV has to be satisfied as well. PPEMES ( talk) 14:56, 13 August 2019 (UTC)