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Before implementing this template on hundreds of pages, could we have some discussion about its aesthetics and whether it's an improvement on the text listing we had before? Rillian ( talk) 22:32, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
I started adding the tables, so blame me for all this discussion. I think the table makes it easier for someone, who is not familiar with space and space travel, to read. I will add my comments to each section below, but I would like to say this, that I am open to changes in the formatting of the table, ie. horizontal or vertical, background color and names of columns. One of the things that has been said a lot is that each article needs to be simple enough that a child can read it and understand, and having a section for the crew with # of flights in brackets and then additional sub-sections for the launching and landing ISS crew members does not achieve that. The list format makes it almost look like there is 3 different missions that will be going on as opposed to the table which makes it look like only 1. This is just my 2 cents worth.-- Navy blue84 ( talk) 16:46, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
The previous text lists were compact - one line per crew member plus the note about previous flights. The new template is multiple lines per crew member plus the headings. Compare the following for STS-128:
Position [1] | Launching Astronaut | Landing Astronaut |
---|---|---|
Commander |
Frederick W. Sturckow Fourth spaceflight | |
Pilot |
Kevin A. Ford First spaceflight | |
Mission Specialist 1 |
Patrick G. Forrester Third spaceflight | |
Mission Specialist 2 |
Jose M. Hernández First spaceflight Flight Engineer | |
Mission Specialist 3 |
Christer Fuglesang Second spaceflight | |
Mission Specialist 4 |
John D. Olivas Second spaceflight | |
Mission Specialist 5 |
Nicole Stott Expedition 20 First spaceflight |
Timothy Kopra Expedition 20 First spaceflight |
Launching ISS Expedition 20 Crew
Landing ISS Expedition 20 Crew
Number in parentheses indicates number of spaceflights by each individual prior to, and including this mission.
Rillian ( talk) 22:48, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
For someone with four previous flights, the old system used the notation (4). The new system uses "Fourth spaceflight". The repetition of the word spaceflight is distracting to the reader. Rillian ( talk) 22:55, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
The background colors and bolding of both the headings and the positions give undue weight to the crew list. Rillian ( talk) 22:52, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
The headings columns are unnecessary. There are only two columns and one is clearly people's names. Rillian ( talk) 22:53, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Having the heading of the people column be Astronaut (or Cosmonaut) raises lots of issues that we have discussed at length. Not everyone who flies on a Shuttle is an astronaut. Not everyone who files on a Soyuz is a cosmonaut. If instead we use "Crew Member", then we have the issue that not everyone who flies on a manned spaceflight is a career astronaut and some sources may not consider them a crew member, e.g. Dennis Tito. Rillian ( talk) 22:59, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Currently when this template is used in STS-129 for Nicole Stott we don't get to see that this will be the conclusion of her first spaceflight.
|position7 =Mission Specialist 5 |crew7_up =none |crew7_down = Nicole Stott |flights7_up = First |expedition7_down = Expedition 21
Bug, or feature? ( sdsds - talk) 17:07, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
No reason the table can't have more than two columns. This proposal saves vertical space and avoids repetition of "spaceflight". It removes the unnecessary bolding from the position titles and places the notes next to the person. Rillian ( talk) 13:07, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Position | Name | Flights | Notes |
---|---|---|---|
Commander | Karol J. Bobko | 2 | |
Payload Specialist | Jake Garn | 1 | First politician to fly in space. |
I'm currently looking at the Mercury missions, and I'm wondering if these templates are really appropriate in such contexts. For example, Mercury-Redstone 4 currently has as its first section two one-line templates, complete with a subsection header.
This is basically two points of data; far better to integrate it into the text. On the other hand, there's something to be said for consistency among all articles. Thoughts, anyone? Shimgray | talk | 00:05, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm wondering if we can set the template up with an optional parameter to align it to the right of the page, infobox-style.
Currently, most articles just have the template on its own, which leaves a lot of whitespace in the article. This is exacerbated by it often being the first section, which means that the reader scrolls past a lot of whitespace with the section index, and then... does the same for the content. It's a bit offputting, even if we do try and fill the space up with pictures.
I've experimented with writing a more verbose crew section (discussing selection, roles, alternates, background, etc), which can be seen on eg/ STS-8#Crew. This complements the template quite nicely, but it still has the whitespace problem - what I'm thinking is if we have an option to push the table off to the right and float it there, we could have it take up about as much vertical screenspace as the running text, and they'd tie together very clearly and tidily.
Thoughts? I'm fairly sure this is technically possible, but I'd have to do some reading up to figure out quite how to do it. Shimgray | talk | 12:28, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
I've recently suggested an alternative to the current crew template; it is an expanded version of Rillian's proposal above. Please leave comments at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Human_spaceflight#Mir_.2F_Soyuz. thanks! Mlm42 ( talk) 23:41, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
I think I've now added the option of adding the launch/landing date to the template. Mlm42 ( talk) 21:07, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
Hello everyone, I recently did a rewrite of our version of this template in the Spanish Wikipedia. It now uses a subtemplate called "Row" to define each row. That way we avoid the hard limit of 13 crew members with a lot less parameters. I don't know what the policy (if any) is on this but I would gladly make the same changes here. Cheers, josecurioso ❯❯❯ Talk to me! 18:14, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
I just found this and it appears to no longer be in active use and is sorely out of date to how ISS Expedition crews are currently specified with numerous up and down dates for various segments of the crew. Is there any way this could be updated? @ Erick Soares3 pinging you as you might be interested. Ergzay ( talk) 20:45, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
This template does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||
|
Before implementing this template on hundreds of pages, could we have some discussion about its aesthetics and whether it's an improvement on the text listing we had before? Rillian ( talk) 22:32, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
I started adding the tables, so blame me for all this discussion. I think the table makes it easier for someone, who is not familiar with space and space travel, to read. I will add my comments to each section below, but I would like to say this, that I am open to changes in the formatting of the table, ie. horizontal or vertical, background color and names of columns. One of the things that has been said a lot is that each article needs to be simple enough that a child can read it and understand, and having a section for the crew with # of flights in brackets and then additional sub-sections for the launching and landing ISS crew members does not achieve that. The list format makes it almost look like there is 3 different missions that will be going on as opposed to the table which makes it look like only 1. This is just my 2 cents worth.-- Navy blue84 ( talk) 16:46, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
The previous text lists were compact - one line per crew member plus the note about previous flights. The new template is multiple lines per crew member plus the headings. Compare the following for STS-128:
Position [1] | Launching Astronaut | Landing Astronaut |
---|---|---|
Commander |
Frederick W. Sturckow Fourth spaceflight | |
Pilot |
Kevin A. Ford First spaceflight | |
Mission Specialist 1 |
Patrick G. Forrester Third spaceflight | |
Mission Specialist 2 |
Jose M. Hernández First spaceflight Flight Engineer | |
Mission Specialist 3 |
Christer Fuglesang Second spaceflight | |
Mission Specialist 4 |
John D. Olivas Second spaceflight | |
Mission Specialist 5 |
Nicole Stott Expedition 20 First spaceflight |
Timothy Kopra Expedition 20 First spaceflight |
Launching ISS Expedition 20 Crew
Landing ISS Expedition 20 Crew
Number in parentheses indicates number of spaceflights by each individual prior to, and including this mission.
Rillian ( talk) 22:48, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
For someone with four previous flights, the old system used the notation (4). The new system uses "Fourth spaceflight". The repetition of the word spaceflight is distracting to the reader. Rillian ( talk) 22:55, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
The background colors and bolding of both the headings and the positions give undue weight to the crew list. Rillian ( talk) 22:52, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
The headings columns are unnecessary. There are only two columns and one is clearly people's names. Rillian ( talk) 22:53, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Having the heading of the people column be Astronaut (or Cosmonaut) raises lots of issues that we have discussed at length. Not everyone who flies on a Shuttle is an astronaut. Not everyone who files on a Soyuz is a cosmonaut. If instead we use "Crew Member", then we have the issue that not everyone who flies on a manned spaceflight is a career astronaut and some sources may not consider them a crew member, e.g. Dennis Tito. Rillian ( talk) 22:59, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Currently when this template is used in STS-129 for Nicole Stott we don't get to see that this will be the conclusion of her first spaceflight.
|position7 =Mission Specialist 5 |crew7_up =none |crew7_down = Nicole Stott |flights7_up = First |expedition7_down = Expedition 21
Bug, or feature? ( sdsds - talk) 17:07, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
No reason the table can't have more than two columns. This proposal saves vertical space and avoids repetition of "spaceflight". It removes the unnecessary bolding from the position titles and places the notes next to the person. Rillian ( talk) 13:07, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Position | Name | Flights | Notes |
---|---|---|---|
Commander | Karol J. Bobko | 2 | |
Payload Specialist | Jake Garn | 1 | First politician to fly in space. |
I'm currently looking at the Mercury missions, and I'm wondering if these templates are really appropriate in such contexts. For example, Mercury-Redstone 4 currently has as its first section two one-line templates, complete with a subsection header.
This is basically two points of data; far better to integrate it into the text. On the other hand, there's something to be said for consistency among all articles. Thoughts, anyone? Shimgray | talk | 00:05, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm wondering if we can set the template up with an optional parameter to align it to the right of the page, infobox-style.
Currently, most articles just have the template on its own, which leaves a lot of whitespace in the article. This is exacerbated by it often being the first section, which means that the reader scrolls past a lot of whitespace with the section index, and then... does the same for the content. It's a bit offputting, even if we do try and fill the space up with pictures.
I've experimented with writing a more verbose crew section (discussing selection, roles, alternates, background, etc), which can be seen on eg/ STS-8#Crew. This complements the template quite nicely, but it still has the whitespace problem - what I'm thinking is if we have an option to push the table off to the right and float it there, we could have it take up about as much vertical screenspace as the running text, and they'd tie together very clearly and tidily.
Thoughts? I'm fairly sure this is technically possible, but I'd have to do some reading up to figure out quite how to do it. Shimgray | talk | 12:28, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
I've recently suggested an alternative to the current crew template; it is an expanded version of Rillian's proposal above. Please leave comments at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Human_spaceflight#Mir_.2F_Soyuz. thanks! Mlm42 ( talk) 23:41, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
I think I've now added the option of adding the launch/landing date to the template. Mlm42 ( talk) 21:07, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
Hello everyone, I recently did a rewrite of our version of this template in the Spanish Wikipedia. It now uses a subtemplate called "Row" to define each row. That way we avoid the hard limit of 13 crew members with a lot less parameters. I don't know what the policy (if any) is on this but I would gladly make the same changes here. Cheers, josecurioso ❯❯❯ Talk to me! 18:14, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
I just found this and it appears to no longer be in active use and is sorely out of date to how ISS Expedition crews are currently specified with numerous up and down dates for various segments of the crew. Is there any way this could be updated? @ Erick Soares3 pinging you as you might be interested. Ergzay ( talk) 20:45, 4 November 2021 (UTC)