![]() | Crime and Criminal Biography Template‑class | ||||||
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![]() | Crime and Criminal Biography: Organized crime Template‑class | |||||||||
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![]() | Italy Template‑class | ||||||
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This template has serious flaws and should first be discussed before putting it up. I will give detailed comments later, but please refrain from inserting it. - Mafia Expert ( talk) 01:59, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Frankly, allthough I do appreciate the effort, I have some serious reservations on how this template is set up. To be honest, I seriously consider to have it deleted. I am sorry to say so – probably some considerable time and energy is put into this constructing it – but it is simply not up to standards.
Let me first explain that my reservations do not only concern the template, but have to do with the quality of Mafia related articles. The first question you have to ask yourself if you want to make a template is: do the articles I am linking to have sufficient quality? That is the first problem. Most are poorly written, do not have sufficient reliable references (if they have them at all), and are significantly biased in the sense that they represent a US point of view on the issue. The one who made this template is not to blame for this, but that is the reality, unfortunately.
I will go into all the mistakes in detail later, but for a start:
The Mafia: You listed the 'Ndrangheta, Camorra, the Cosican Mafia under this heading. These organisations are not the Mafia: the Mafia, or rather Cosa Nostra, is a specifically Sicilian organisation, that migrated to the US as well. The ‘Ndrangheta, Camorra, the Cosican Mafia are NOT the Mafia. Furthermore, why is the Chicago Outfit in the first box, and is there a separate one for the Five Families of New York? If you list the Chicago Outfit here, why not other sub-groups? If you have a separate box for the Five Families of New York, why is their nothing about the Mafia in Sicily? The Sicilian Mafia Commission for instance. That is now under Other. The supreme level of organisation of the Mafia on Sicily and you list that under Other?
There are a lot of other serious mistakes, but I will go into them later. However, please refrain from putting this template on articles before it is properly discussed. - Mafia Expert ( talk) 02:20, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
I'll go ahead and propose some changes. First would be limiting this template strictly to the (Sicilian) Mafia. The following is a proposed structure-- what do you think? LinguistAtLarge • Msg 07:34, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
The Mafia (Cosa Nostra) |
---|
Sicilian Mafia |
Commission · Sicilian Mafia clans · Sicilian Mafiosi |
Antimafia |
American Mafia ( Commission) |
Mafia crime families ·
Italian-American crime families |
Chain of Command |
Commission |
Codes |
That looks a lot better, but I am still not really happy. For instance I don't particularly like the header "Dominant families". There are not all necessary dominant. Maybe it is better to link to Sicilian Mafia clans and maybe add Sicilian Mafiosi. The code section was not that bad, but I would delete Duel and Social banditry. I would also add a section on the Antimafia and , why not History of the Sicilian Mafia. I am sorry not to elaborate more, but I have litle time at the moment. - Mafia Expert ( talk) 23:01, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Much better, we could probably refine it a bit more, but I think this fine to use. I made some changes. The Antimafia is an Italian phenomenon, so I moved it up. - Mafia Expert ( talk) 14:27, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
Jerry Capeci The complete idiot's guide to the Mafia (pg. 31-46) wrote that Philly (lost seat 1980) and Detroit (lost seat 1977) -- Vic49 ( talk) 23:35, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
I think this template is in need of some reworking. Consider that there is another template with similar information for the American mob ( Template:American Mafia). Also, there are a few articles which deserve to be included in a Mafia-related template so as to make them more accessible, e.g.
List of Italian American mobsters
List of American mobsters by organization
List of mobsters by city
List of crime bosses
The current template has some good information but it is a bit cluttered, and, as mentioned, superfluous in some respects to the American Mafia-one. A good idea would be to maybe add links to the lists of individual mobsters to the American Mafia-template, and any other information, so that the template can be used in all articles that are connected to the American Mafia (maybe change its heading from Italian American Mafia crime families to just Italian American Mafia so to include associates and so forth). This would make it much easier to survey the area. Then this template could be used for broader Mafia-related topics and include articles related to all nationalities (cf. List of Mafia crime families), albeit with the Sicilian and American ones isolated since they are the most prominent. What do you think? Shoplifter ( talk) 09:38, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
I think it would be a good idea to separate the Sicilian Mafia sections of this template into its own Template (like the American Mafia Template). This Mafia Template should include the "Chain of Command" and "Codes" sections, the List of Mafia crime families (a list of Italian Mafia crime family around the world), a link to the American Mafia Template and a link to the Sicilian Mafia Template. The information about the Sicilian Mafia Commission, antimafia should be in the Sicilian Mafia template and the information about the American Mafia crime families should also be removed. -- Vic49 ( talk) 16:34, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
I changed the template so its only related to Sicilian Mafia. -- Vic49 ( talk) 19:45, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
This looks very good - nice job! I've made a few minor alterations. Just trying to tighten things up a bit. The good thing about a bottom template is that it can be added to large number of articles with ease using Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser. Shoplifter ( talk) 06:39, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm also trying out some changes to the American Mafia template. What do you think about this revision:
I guess my idea is to get as much valuable information in the template as readability allows. Do you still think we should merge List of
Italian American Mafia crime families and
List of American mobsters by organization? The Codes and Glossary should probably be inserted somewhere in the Italian American Mafia template as well.
Just finished a new design; more radical but probably my favorite one so far. What do you think? Shoplifter ( talk) 16:21, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and implemented the new Sicilian template, hope that's okay. Shoplifter ( talk) 09:58, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
I've now finished adding the template to some 100+ Sicilian Mafia-related articles using AWB. Please help by removing any accidental double-adds, erroneous adds (e.g., accidental adds to Camorra-related articles or other Italian organizations) and by adding the template to any new or related articles you come across. Shoplifter ( talk) 12:57, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
![]() | Crime and Criminal Biography Template‑class | ||||||
|
![]() | Crime and Criminal Biography: Organized crime Template‑class | |||||||||
|
![]() | Italy Template‑class | ||||||
|
This template has serious flaws and should first be discussed before putting it up. I will give detailed comments later, but please refrain from inserting it. - Mafia Expert ( talk) 01:59, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Frankly, allthough I do appreciate the effort, I have some serious reservations on how this template is set up. To be honest, I seriously consider to have it deleted. I am sorry to say so – probably some considerable time and energy is put into this constructing it – but it is simply not up to standards.
Let me first explain that my reservations do not only concern the template, but have to do with the quality of Mafia related articles. The first question you have to ask yourself if you want to make a template is: do the articles I am linking to have sufficient quality? That is the first problem. Most are poorly written, do not have sufficient reliable references (if they have them at all), and are significantly biased in the sense that they represent a US point of view on the issue. The one who made this template is not to blame for this, but that is the reality, unfortunately.
I will go into all the mistakes in detail later, but for a start:
The Mafia: You listed the 'Ndrangheta, Camorra, the Cosican Mafia under this heading. These organisations are not the Mafia: the Mafia, or rather Cosa Nostra, is a specifically Sicilian organisation, that migrated to the US as well. The ‘Ndrangheta, Camorra, the Cosican Mafia are NOT the Mafia. Furthermore, why is the Chicago Outfit in the first box, and is there a separate one for the Five Families of New York? If you list the Chicago Outfit here, why not other sub-groups? If you have a separate box for the Five Families of New York, why is their nothing about the Mafia in Sicily? The Sicilian Mafia Commission for instance. That is now under Other. The supreme level of organisation of the Mafia on Sicily and you list that under Other?
There are a lot of other serious mistakes, but I will go into them later. However, please refrain from putting this template on articles before it is properly discussed. - Mafia Expert ( talk) 02:20, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
I'll go ahead and propose some changes. First would be limiting this template strictly to the (Sicilian) Mafia. The following is a proposed structure-- what do you think? LinguistAtLarge • Msg 07:34, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
The Mafia (Cosa Nostra) |
---|
Sicilian Mafia |
Commission · Sicilian Mafia clans · Sicilian Mafiosi |
Antimafia |
American Mafia ( Commission) |
Mafia crime families ·
Italian-American crime families |
Chain of Command |
Commission |
Codes |
That looks a lot better, but I am still not really happy. For instance I don't particularly like the header "Dominant families". There are not all necessary dominant. Maybe it is better to link to Sicilian Mafia clans and maybe add Sicilian Mafiosi. The code section was not that bad, but I would delete Duel and Social banditry. I would also add a section on the Antimafia and , why not History of the Sicilian Mafia. I am sorry not to elaborate more, but I have litle time at the moment. - Mafia Expert ( talk) 23:01, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Much better, we could probably refine it a bit more, but I think this fine to use. I made some changes. The Antimafia is an Italian phenomenon, so I moved it up. - Mafia Expert ( talk) 14:27, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
Jerry Capeci The complete idiot's guide to the Mafia (pg. 31-46) wrote that Philly (lost seat 1980) and Detroit (lost seat 1977) -- Vic49 ( talk) 23:35, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
I think this template is in need of some reworking. Consider that there is another template with similar information for the American mob ( Template:American Mafia). Also, there are a few articles which deserve to be included in a Mafia-related template so as to make them more accessible, e.g.
List of Italian American mobsters
List of American mobsters by organization
List of mobsters by city
List of crime bosses
The current template has some good information but it is a bit cluttered, and, as mentioned, superfluous in some respects to the American Mafia-one. A good idea would be to maybe add links to the lists of individual mobsters to the American Mafia-template, and any other information, so that the template can be used in all articles that are connected to the American Mafia (maybe change its heading from Italian American Mafia crime families to just Italian American Mafia so to include associates and so forth). This would make it much easier to survey the area. Then this template could be used for broader Mafia-related topics and include articles related to all nationalities (cf. List of Mafia crime families), albeit with the Sicilian and American ones isolated since they are the most prominent. What do you think? Shoplifter ( talk) 09:38, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
I think it would be a good idea to separate the Sicilian Mafia sections of this template into its own Template (like the American Mafia Template). This Mafia Template should include the "Chain of Command" and "Codes" sections, the List of Mafia crime families (a list of Italian Mafia crime family around the world), a link to the American Mafia Template and a link to the Sicilian Mafia Template. The information about the Sicilian Mafia Commission, antimafia should be in the Sicilian Mafia template and the information about the American Mafia crime families should also be removed. -- Vic49 ( talk) 16:34, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
I changed the template so its only related to Sicilian Mafia. -- Vic49 ( talk) 19:45, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
This looks very good - nice job! I've made a few minor alterations. Just trying to tighten things up a bit. The good thing about a bottom template is that it can be added to large number of articles with ease using Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser. Shoplifter ( talk) 06:39, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm also trying out some changes to the American Mafia template. What do you think about this revision:
I guess my idea is to get as much valuable information in the template as readability allows. Do you still think we should merge List of
Italian American Mafia crime families and
List of American mobsters by organization? The Codes and Glossary should probably be inserted somewhere in the Italian American Mafia template as well.
Just finished a new design; more radical but probably my favorite one so far. What do you think? Shoplifter ( talk) 16:21, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and implemented the new Sicilian template, hope that's okay. Shoplifter ( talk) 09:58, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
I've now finished adding the template to some 100+ Sicilian Mafia-related articles using AWB. Please help by removing any accidental double-adds, erroneous adds (e.g., accidental adds to Camorra-related articles or other Italian organizations) and by adding the template to any new or related articles you come across. Shoplifter ( talk) 12:57, 23 July 2011 (UTC)