China Template‑class | |||||||
|
This template was changed to "Republic of China (Taiwan)" from "Republic of China" per the tentative agreement at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese)#Proposed guidelines. Although the label will be mostly used correctly, there will be cases when "Republic of China" or "Taiwan" are better labels. I propose creating {{ ROC2}} and {{ ROC3}} labels to deal with the potential issues. Jumping cheese Cont @ct 08:45, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Jumping Cheese agrees with me that we should create more. Republic of China (Taiwan) is not accurate at all. TingMing 22:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
It would be weird if the template refers to the Republic in 1912(1945)-1949, and currently the Taipei administration also exercises sovereignty over those non-
Taiwan islands of Matsu and Kinmen. As an identical template has long existed
here (showing
Republic of China (Taiwan)), it is unnecessary and time-wasting adding the name Taiwan on this simply "ROC" (1912-present)" template -
210.0.204.29 01:09, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I with no doubts reverted
User:Folic Acid's
edits which has never been discussed. There is no need to include the name of Taiwan as
there is another age-old template which already did. And I rather see it was User:Folic Acid who added Taiwan without ANY discussion in the very first place, so please dont tell me "please discuss before removing text"
MainBody 08:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
There is only ONE China, the base concept. The only confusion is that Mainland, inclusive of all the self province, Macao and Hong Kong are rule under Communist Party of China, while Taiwan inclusive those surround islands are under government by the democrats parties. If you were going to do paper work, Constitution of both sides stated they own the whole China and claim illegal regime of the other. However, in actual, they are practicing their power each on of their province isolated from the other. CPC base themselves in Beijing and ROC based themselves in Nanjing(aka Nanking) but now Taipei, Taiwan. Same logic, still it is odd to name PRC as "PRC(Beijing)". Hence, making equivalent of Taiwan to the ROC is in fact not correct. Regards
ChowHui 10:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand this issue. You may use standard invocation by entering {{ROC}} and receiving
Republic of China. You may also use variants by entering {{flag|Republic of China}} with some add-ons - {{flagicon|Republic of China}} [[Taiwan]] (resulting
Taiwan) or {{ROC}} ([[Taiwan]]) (resulting
Republic of China (
Taiwan)). Regards,
Piotr Mikołajski 13:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Anyway, the way I see it is that this template would apply to China prior to the 1949 split, seeing as China at the time was indeed called the Republic of China. Then the 1949 split came along, and that's where you get {{ROC-TW}} and {{PRC}}.
Pandacomics 07:58, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Why does the template link to Republic of China and not simply China? in the first place, the ROC in 1912-49 was the whole of China as far as the world was concerned; it was not the present government of Taiwan. Secondly, comparable templates do not link to specific states/regimes, e.g. the French Fifth Republic, especially when they only control a rump of the previous geographical entity. Grant | Talk 09:07, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
{{
CHN-ROC}}
to get
China. Hope this helps,
Andrwsc 15:46, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
ROC does not mean TAIWAN! ROC and PRC are parallel legal government of China. Both legally represent China, however, they practice their power in region isolated from each other. They are just 2 party in a civil war. ChowHui 16:29, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
{{
flag|Republic of China|1912}}
(
Republic of China) for the 1912-1928 flag, and {{
flag|Qing Dynasty}}
(
Qing Dynasty) for pre-1912 China. Again, lots of choices for editors, depending on the context of the article they use them in.
Andrwsc 07:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)I have already explained that it is not appropriate to have the present template in articles about the period of 1912-1945, because "ROC = Taiwan" in the minds of many present-day readers and during that period Taiwan was a Japanese colony and was not even part of the ROC. This is highly confusing to ordinary readers who don't know the history.
In essence the ROC is a state, not a country (look up the two concepts if you don't understand the difference between them), as its borders have varied to such a phenomenal extent that they have covered mutually exclusive areas at various times. This makes use of the name, without some qualification such as "1912-49", confusing and unsuitable for an encylopedia. Grant | Talk 11:03, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
You mistake my purpose. I started thinking about these issues because of this template's use in inappropriate contexts, not because of any deep knowledge of Taiwan, PRC or China in general.
Moreover, I have yet to hear a convincing explanation of why we have so many China templates, all of which point to a particular state and yet we have absolutely none that represent the geo-cultural country/nation of China, as is the case with (e.g) Template:IND (which has had many different states/regimes at the national level), Template:RUS {ditto) and Template:BRA (ditto).
If this is — as I am now beginning to suspect — simply a matter of political correctness in relation to the ROC/KMT historical claim to the mainland, all I can say is this: with Taiwan now pushing for independence, any claim to de jure authority over the mainland must logically have ended, just as de facto authority over the mainland ended in 1949. Grant | Talk 14:37, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
{{
flag|Russian SFSR}}
→
Russian SFSR{{
flag|Soviet Union}}
→
Soviet Union (and
Template:USSR is also available){{
flag|Russian Empire}}
→
Russian Empire (also has various flag variants){{
flag|Germany}}
→
Germany (or simply {{
GER}} or {{
DEU}}){{
flag|West Germany}}
→
West Germany{{
flag|East Germany}}
→
East Germany{{
flag|Nazi Germany}}
→
Nazi Germany{{
flag|German Empire}}
→
German EmpireWell then, it seems that French Fifth Republic is a bogus article which should simply be a re-direct to France.
Do neither of you see the ambiguity and potential for confusion that exists? That is the key question. Can you point me to the particular policy which says that flag templates must link to a state?
Andrwsc, in the cases you mention above, the present day states are closely connected to the geo-cultural countries/nations. The ROC is a rare exception in this respect. Also, it is not true that flags always represent governments; for instance, many flags have emerged as popular/sectional symbols first and have later achieved official status.
Folic_Acid, once again, the inappropriate contexts are articles about China in the key period of 1912-1945, during which time Taiwan was not part of the ROC or any Chinese state. Grant | Talk 22:42, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
A heads up for this talk-page.
As covered by numerous sources, including Reuters, "ROC" is to be used as the code for Russian athletes at the 2020 Summer Olympics. As the template {{ROC}} points to Republic of China, there may be some necessary decisions made, and quick, about how to deal with the identical codes referring to different entities.
Sources:
doktorb
words
deeds 17:26, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please remove the two interlanguage links [[ja:Template:ROC]]
and [[zh:Template:ROC]]
. They are already linked by wikidata, so are redundant.
ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ (
talk) 10:36, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
China Template‑class | |||||||
|
This template was changed to "Republic of China (Taiwan)" from "Republic of China" per the tentative agreement at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese)#Proposed guidelines. Although the label will be mostly used correctly, there will be cases when "Republic of China" or "Taiwan" are better labels. I propose creating {{ ROC2}} and {{ ROC3}} labels to deal with the potential issues. Jumping cheese Cont @ct 08:45, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Jumping Cheese agrees with me that we should create more. Republic of China (Taiwan) is not accurate at all. TingMing 22:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
It would be weird if the template refers to the Republic in 1912(1945)-1949, and currently the Taipei administration also exercises sovereignty over those non-
Taiwan islands of Matsu and Kinmen. As an identical template has long existed
here (showing
Republic of China (Taiwan)), it is unnecessary and time-wasting adding the name Taiwan on this simply "ROC" (1912-present)" template -
210.0.204.29 01:09, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I with no doubts reverted
User:Folic Acid's
edits which has never been discussed. There is no need to include the name of Taiwan as
there is another age-old template which already did. And I rather see it was User:Folic Acid who added Taiwan without ANY discussion in the very first place, so please dont tell me "please discuss before removing text"
MainBody 08:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
There is only ONE China, the base concept. The only confusion is that Mainland, inclusive of all the self province, Macao and Hong Kong are rule under Communist Party of China, while Taiwan inclusive those surround islands are under government by the democrats parties. If you were going to do paper work, Constitution of both sides stated they own the whole China and claim illegal regime of the other. However, in actual, they are practicing their power each on of their province isolated from the other. CPC base themselves in Beijing and ROC based themselves in Nanjing(aka Nanking) but now Taipei, Taiwan. Same logic, still it is odd to name PRC as "PRC(Beijing)". Hence, making equivalent of Taiwan to the ROC is in fact not correct. Regards
ChowHui 10:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand this issue. You may use standard invocation by entering {{ROC}} and receiving
Republic of China. You may also use variants by entering {{flag|Republic of China}} with some add-ons - {{flagicon|Republic of China}} [[Taiwan]] (resulting
Taiwan) or {{ROC}} ([[Taiwan]]) (resulting
Republic of China (
Taiwan)). Regards,
Piotr Mikołajski 13:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Anyway, the way I see it is that this template would apply to China prior to the 1949 split, seeing as China at the time was indeed called the Republic of China. Then the 1949 split came along, and that's where you get {{ROC-TW}} and {{PRC}}.
Pandacomics 07:58, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Why does the template link to Republic of China and not simply China? in the first place, the ROC in 1912-49 was the whole of China as far as the world was concerned; it was not the present government of Taiwan. Secondly, comparable templates do not link to specific states/regimes, e.g. the French Fifth Republic, especially when they only control a rump of the previous geographical entity. Grant | Talk 09:07, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
{{
CHN-ROC}}
to get
China. Hope this helps,
Andrwsc 15:46, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
ROC does not mean TAIWAN! ROC and PRC are parallel legal government of China. Both legally represent China, however, they practice their power in region isolated from each other. They are just 2 party in a civil war. ChowHui 16:29, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
{{
flag|Republic of China|1912}}
(
Republic of China) for the 1912-1928 flag, and {{
flag|Qing Dynasty}}
(
Qing Dynasty) for pre-1912 China. Again, lots of choices for editors, depending on the context of the article they use them in.
Andrwsc 07:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)I have already explained that it is not appropriate to have the present template in articles about the period of 1912-1945, because "ROC = Taiwan" in the minds of many present-day readers and during that period Taiwan was a Japanese colony and was not even part of the ROC. This is highly confusing to ordinary readers who don't know the history.
In essence the ROC is a state, not a country (look up the two concepts if you don't understand the difference between them), as its borders have varied to such a phenomenal extent that they have covered mutually exclusive areas at various times. This makes use of the name, without some qualification such as "1912-49", confusing and unsuitable for an encylopedia. Grant | Talk 11:03, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
You mistake my purpose. I started thinking about these issues because of this template's use in inappropriate contexts, not because of any deep knowledge of Taiwan, PRC or China in general.
Moreover, I have yet to hear a convincing explanation of why we have so many China templates, all of which point to a particular state and yet we have absolutely none that represent the geo-cultural country/nation of China, as is the case with (e.g) Template:IND (which has had many different states/regimes at the national level), Template:RUS {ditto) and Template:BRA (ditto).
If this is — as I am now beginning to suspect — simply a matter of political correctness in relation to the ROC/KMT historical claim to the mainland, all I can say is this: with Taiwan now pushing for independence, any claim to de jure authority over the mainland must logically have ended, just as de facto authority over the mainland ended in 1949. Grant | Talk 14:37, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
{{
flag|Russian SFSR}}
→
Russian SFSR{{
flag|Soviet Union}}
→
Soviet Union (and
Template:USSR is also available){{
flag|Russian Empire}}
→
Russian Empire (also has various flag variants){{
flag|Germany}}
→
Germany (or simply {{
GER}} or {{
DEU}}){{
flag|West Germany}}
→
West Germany{{
flag|East Germany}}
→
East Germany{{
flag|Nazi Germany}}
→
Nazi Germany{{
flag|German Empire}}
→
German EmpireWell then, it seems that French Fifth Republic is a bogus article which should simply be a re-direct to France.
Do neither of you see the ambiguity and potential for confusion that exists? That is the key question. Can you point me to the particular policy which says that flag templates must link to a state?
Andrwsc, in the cases you mention above, the present day states are closely connected to the geo-cultural countries/nations. The ROC is a rare exception in this respect. Also, it is not true that flags always represent governments; for instance, many flags have emerged as popular/sectional symbols first and have later achieved official status.
Folic_Acid, once again, the inappropriate contexts are articles about China in the key period of 1912-1945, during which time Taiwan was not part of the ROC or any Chinese state. Grant | Talk 22:42, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
A heads up for this talk-page.
As covered by numerous sources, including Reuters, "ROC" is to be used as the code for Russian athletes at the 2020 Summer Olympics. As the template {{ROC}} points to Republic of China, there may be some necessary decisions made, and quick, about how to deal with the identical codes referring to different entities.
Sources:
doktorb
words
deeds 17:26, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please remove the two interlanguage links [[ja:Template:ROC]]
and [[zh:Template:ROC]]
. They are already linked by wikidata, so are redundant.
ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ (
talk) 10:36, 16 July 2021 (UTC)