![]() | American football Template‑class | ||||||
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What's the definition of "minor league" football (i.e. what's the distinction from "professional")? They're not exactly exclusive concepts. Professional usually just means "paid", perhaps distinguishd from "semi-professional" in that they pay equivalent to a full-time salary or better (or something like that). I'm thinking specifically of the Canadian Football League What's a WP:NPOV way to make that distinction? It could be argued that the CFL is a professional league. I think it's quite a POV thing to say the NFL is the only pro league. -- Bdoserror 22:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I think this template should probably specify "American Football" or some other appropriate distinguishing name to clarify that it's not what the rest of the world outside of North America and Australia calls "football". -- Bdoserror 22:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree. The Gridiron football article states that it is a term refering to American Football. So why not just say American Football. Pollox87 05:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that this should be just "Non-North American leagues", in case others come up. -- Bdoserror 22:15, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
This template needs some serious clean-up before it should be pasted on every relevant page. For one, if it's about professional football, why are semi-pro and amateur leagues listed? "NFL Europe" isn't even spelled right. The header isn't centered. Nothing wrong with the concept, it just needs work. -- Mwalcoff 00:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I have update the formatting of this template and removed (gasp!) the Canadian amateur teams. We could use a new and different template for the dozens and dozens of amateur leagues and teams in each Canadian province. -- SunDog | Talk 15:17, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
This template needs to be moved for two reasons - A: Capitalisation and B: For 95% of the World "Professional football" means something else entirely. Jooler 08:35, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Template:Professional Football → '''Some other name''' — Globalisation Jooler 12:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
The consensus at Wikipedia is that the CFL is not a minor league, it is the highest professional league for the play of Canadian Football, which is considered as a seperate, though similar, code of Football from American Football. For an analogy, see the way that Rugby Union and Rugby League are treated. Any references to the CFL or other canadian football leagues should be removed from a template dealing with American Football. -- Jayron 32 04:42, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I have moved the CFL to Other leagues. Due to its importance to professional football job seekers as one of the top two alternatives to the NFL, I felt it should be noted on the template because people using this resource to look up pro football leagues should be able to easily find it. TonyTheTiger 16:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
What's the distinction between Indoor football and Arena? Is it just the name or is there more to it? -- Bdoserror 23:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
This template should be re-organized and updated to bring it in line with the information in the List of leagues of American football (or vice-versa). -- Bdoserror 23:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Good things done recently:
Changes still needed (I lack the template coding skills to do it. Can someone else handle this?):
Hope to see this get better still. We're almost there. -- Jayron 32 06:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Love the recent changes. The template looks perfect. I especially like the name change, since it now draws a distinction between "soccer" or "rugby" or "aussie" football and gridiron based football. With the current listing it looks great. Any chance of adding the Women's Professional leagues? -- Jayron 32 21:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I understand that the AFL is the highest classification of indoor football, but let's not fool ourselves (or anyone else). It's essentially a purgatory for NFL wannabes. Are there more than, say, ten cases of players who turned down NFL contracts to play in the AFL? Or for that matter, is there a single case? Its most famous player is Kurt Warner, and it wasn't for his accomplishments in the AFL. -- Son of Somebody 04:04, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
My apologies for the snarky edit comment, but I still believe the objection is valid.-- Son of Somebody 19:33, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't think this template is correctly named. Most of the leagues are not professional. This was raised at Talk:British American Football League. I assume the template is designed to exclude college football yet it includes British Collegiate American Football League. I wonder whether the scope of this template is too broad and it should be slimmed down significantly.
Separately, NFL Europa should surely be considered on a par with Arena Football League and Canadian Football League. MLA 16:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I think we have to draw the line somewhere on the semi-pro thing. Let's face it semi-pro leagues are a dime a dozen. IMO this should only list leagues that are of some consequence to the sports world, not minor regional leagues that nobody's ever heard of. And definitely not these "leagues that never played a game", as there are literally dozens. heqs ·:. 07:18, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Frankly, this template was a mess. I have been bold and reduced the scope to established/non-regional professional leagues located in North America, and left some notes underneath. heqs ·:. 08:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree this template needed cleaning up but, I believe the scope was reduced too much. Regional leagues can be legitimate and many minor pro leagues across sports are only regional. After all, North America is a very big place. Personally, I consider the WIFL, UIF, IFL, and even the NIFL (at least until they officially shut down) as active minor pro indoor leagues as well as the ones still listed on the the template. Also, I feel the term 'gridiron' is not accurate as that is just a nickname mainly used outside North American to distinguish the code(s) of football this most popular in the U.S. and Canada. The term is rarely heard here and I question if it the term is really that well know outside North American except for maybe Australia. Using 'gridiron' for this template would be like using 'soccer' instead of 'football' for the "Football in England" template. If this template is to continue as is then I would suggest it be renamed "Professional American, Canadian, and Indoor/Arena Football leagues in North America" or simply "Professional North American football leagues" just to cover the three main versions. Better, the Indoor & Arena football leagues should be split off to a new template for those leagues and leave this one to the "outdoor" game only. Straykat99 t 19:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Okay, perhaps I was a bit drastic with my edits. However, my changes have been wholesale reverted and the template once again lists amateur leagues like Canadian Junior Football League and non-North American leagues. There seems to be a consensus here to at the very least limit it to professional leagues based in North America, so I will be reverting to include only that for now. I think something along the lines of Straykat99's suggestion will work best in the long run. heqs ·:. 12:31, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
"Gridiron football" is a term that is used only in Australasia and not in the regions served by the various American and Canadian football leagues. The proper term for the template is professional football, with the American and Canadian variants described in the field of the template. If there should have been any change whatsoever before someone applied the name change, it should have been Template: Professional football leagues in North America and Europe or Template:Professional North American football leagues instead (otherwise NFL Europa and its ilk would have to be removed from the table). 147.70.242.40 ( talk) 18:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
As long as this template contains rugby union links Gridiron is not an appropriate name. Rugby football is not a kind of gridiron football. Either take the rugby links out or re-name it "Professional gridiron football leagues in North America (and rugby football leagues of Canada)".-- Jeff79 ( talk) 21:35, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Please stop moving to planned, since it WILL take place. Brady4mvp ( Talk) 00:28, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Dletter ( talk) 14:52, 17 June 2009 (UTC) I have to agree... the best case of this being the PSFL in 1992, which had training camps, preview shows on SportsChannel... and then folded 10 days before kickoff. While I agree that from what I have seen, I'd say I'm 95% sure that the 2009 season will happen, it still is not set in stone.
I realize that nothing's set in stone yet, but in the event the UFL does succeed, where will it be added to this chart? I assume major leagues along with the NFL (since the UFL isn't a minor league) or do you make a section for alternative leagues? 172.192.191.113 ( talk) 23:05, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
I am glad to see that the newly announced Arena Football 1 was added to this list, but I would argue that with most of the Arena Football 1 teams coming from the af2, and it not yet having played a single game, it shouldn't immediately be declared a "major" league. Maybe there isn't a major Indoor League right now until the next season starts and one of them proves itself to be the leader. Micah008 16:38, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
The XFL was not a "Major" League. The talent level was well below that of other simalar leagues. If the XFL was major, then the UFL is for sure a Major League. 172.190.78.74 ( talk) 01:34, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Personal views and opinions on the talent level of the XFL as well as comparisons to other similar leagues unless supported by a reliable source, a neutral third party source at that, constitutes original research and thus is unsuitable for Wikipedia. NBC and World Wrestling Federation Entertainment, Inc. at the time noted the XFL as a major league through press release and broadcasts. As for third party sources, TIME [1] and The Washington Post [2] are some of the established news sources that noted the XFL as a major league as well. "These are just the kind of fans the National Football League wants, and the kind that the World Wrestling Federation has been able to drag blindly into its new enterprise, the first major pro league to be launched since the three-season flop of the United States Football League (USFL) in the mid-'80s. The XFL is a joint venture by the World Wrestling Federation and NBC that debuted last Saturday night." -- Unquestionable Truth-- 03:26, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
In light of some of the arguments brought forth over what constitutes major league vs. minor league, I've decided to, as I did with the indoor football section, change the subdivisions for the pro teams instead to "national" and "regional." This makes it easier to establish criteria.
A national league is one that, after 1933, had teams in most parts of the country. Prior to 1933, it is a league that served most of the areas served by the other professional sport at the time, baseball. (Otherwise, the American Football League of 1926, which was national by the standards of the day, would likely be considered regional because it lacked a franchise in the South or West Coast.) Regional leagues have its teams concentrated in one part of the country (e.g. the East Coast, the South, the West Coast). Most of the minor leagues are regional. Most of the national leagues are major. This also eliminates debates over what constitutes "major" such as the XFL debate (as they were clearly national, though the major part is disputed); the only minor league that would be considered national was the Continental Football League, and even they had intended to be major at one point. J. Myrle Fuller ( talk) 21:47, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
We still dont have a consensus, i will change it back, if we cant comprimise. 172.190.200.137 ( talk) 01:07, 20 March 2010 (UTC) ..."Compromise" no the consensus is set I believe. You are more than welcome to argue your case and convince other members to agree with you, thus forming a new consensus. -- Unquestionable Truth-- 02:20, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
The problem with professional American football leagues is that all the pre-1946 leagues were regional in nature (the first league with a national scope with teams on both coasts was AFL II after it admitted the Los Angeles Bulldogs). On the other hand, the United States sports media quickly accepted the NFL as the major league upon the formation of the league in 1920. Similarly, any league in direct competition with the NFL was accorded "major" status regardless of whether it was regional or national in scope. The standard continued after the formation of the AAFC, AFL IV, WFL, and the USFL (but not XFL or WLAF). So adopting the "regional" vs. "national" distinction is essentially meaningless in professional American football, but the minor/major distinction is not only meaningful: it's traditionally consistent. B.Wind ( talk) 17:33, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
I am wondering how many of these leagues are really needed. Most of these look like they were someone's gee whiz idea but never got much beyond that. I think those leagues that had some actual influence are worth keeping at least. Among the ones I see:
Indoor: WIFL is worth keeping as it was the first proposed alternative to Arena and appears some work was done. The two NAIFLs would be worth deleting since they seem just like proposals that never got beyond paper. Extreme FL could be deleted since it just points to AF2 league anyways.
Outdoor: PSFL seems to have gotten close to running. AAFL (1998) and APFL in this category both seem like leagues that only existed on paper and nothing else. AAFL (2008), IFF, UNGL all seem borderline in that they did conduct some activities before folding. Mateinsixtynine ( talk) 19:55, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
None of the women's leagues are professional, they are all amateur, and should be removed because of this fact. The only women's league that is actually professional is the Lingerie Football League. Jntg4Games ( talk) 23:46, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
A non-league indoor football team, the Yuma Yahoos are in Yuma, Arizona, but I can't find anything about them online, they may had recently folded or disbanded. 67.49.89.214 ( talk) 16:06, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
![]() | American football Template‑class | ||||||
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What's the definition of "minor league" football (i.e. what's the distinction from "professional")? They're not exactly exclusive concepts. Professional usually just means "paid", perhaps distinguishd from "semi-professional" in that they pay equivalent to a full-time salary or better (or something like that). I'm thinking specifically of the Canadian Football League What's a WP:NPOV way to make that distinction? It could be argued that the CFL is a professional league. I think it's quite a POV thing to say the NFL is the only pro league. -- Bdoserror 22:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I think this template should probably specify "American Football" or some other appropriate distinguishing name to clarify that it's not what the rest of the world outside of North America and Australia calls "football". -- Bdoserror 22:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree. The Gridiron football article states that it is a term refering to American Football. So why not just say American Football. Pollox87 05:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that this should be just "Non-North American leagues", in case others come up. -- Bdoserror 22:15, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
This template needs some serious clean-up before it should be pasted on every relevant page. For one, if it's about professional football, why are semi-pro and amateur leagues listed? "NFL Europe" isn't even spelled right. The header isn't centered. Nothing wrong with the concept, it just needs work. -- Mwalcoff 00:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I have update the formatting of this template and removed (gasp!) the Canadian amateur teams. We could use a new and different template for the dozens and dozens of amateur leagues and teams in each Canadian province. -- SunDog | Talk 15:17, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
This template needs to be moved for two reasons - A: Capitalisation and B: For 95% of the World "Professional football" means something else entirely. Jooler 08:35, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Template:Professional Football → '''Some other name''' — Globalisation Jooler 12:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
The consensus at Wikipedia is that the CFL is not a minor league, it is the highest professional league for the play of Canadian Football, which is considered as a seperate, though similar, code of Football from American Football. For an analogy, see the way that Rugby Union and Rugby League are treated. Any references to the CFL or other canadian football leagues should be removed from a template dealing with American Football. -- Jayron 32 04:42, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I have moved the CFL to Other leagues. Due to its importance to professional football job seekers as one of the top two alternatives to the NFL, I felt it should be noted on the template because people using this resource to look up pro football leagues should be able to easily find it. TonyTheTiger 16:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
What's the distinction between Indoor football and Arena? Is it just the name or is there more to it? -- Bdoserror 23:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
This template should be re-organized and updated to bring it in line with the information in the List of leagues of American football (or vice-versa). -- Bdoserror 23:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Good things done recently:
Changes still needed (I lack the template coding skills to do it. Can someone else handle this?):
Hope to see this get better still. We're almost there. -- Jayron 32 06:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Love the recent changes. The template looks perfect. I especially like the name change, since it now draws a distinction between "soccer" or "rugby" or "aussie" football and gridiron based football. With the current listing it looks great. Any chance of adding the Women's Professional leagues? -- Jayron 32 21:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I understand that the AFL is the highest classification of indoor football, but let's not fool ourselves (or anyone else). It's essentially a purgatory for NFL wannabes. Are there more than, say, ten cases of players who turned down NFL contracts to play in the AFL? Or for that matter, is there a single case? Its most famous player is Kurt Warner, and it wasn't for his accomplishments in the AFL. -- Son of Somebody 04:04, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
My apologies for the snarky edit comment, but I still believe the objection is valid.-- Son of Somebody 19:33, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't think this template is correctly named. Most of the leagues are not professional. This was raised at Talk:British American Football League. I assume the template is designed to exclude college football yet it includes British Collegiate American Football League. I wonder whether the scope of this template is too broad and it should be slimmed down significantly.
Separately, NFL Europa should surely be considered on a par with Arena Football League and Canadian Football League. MLA 16:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I think we have to draw the line somewhere on the semi-pro thing. Let's face it semi-pro leagues are a dime a dozen. IMO this should only list leagues that are of some consequence to the sports world, not minor regional leagues that nobody's ever heard of. And definitely not these "leagues that never played a game", as there are literally dozens. heqs ·:. 07:18, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Frankly, this template was a mess. I have been bold and reduced the scope to established/non-regional professional leagues located in North America, and left some notes underneath. heqs ·:. 08:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree this template needed cleaning up but, I believe the scope was reduced too much. Regional leagues can be legitimate and many minor pro leagues across sports are only regional. After all, North America is a very big place. Personally, I consider the WIFL, UIF, IFL, and even the NIFL (at least until they officially shut down) as active minor pro indoor leagues as well as the ones still listed on the the template. Also, I feel the term 'gridiron' is not accurate as that is just a nickname mainly used outside North American to distinguish the code(s) of football this most popular in the U.S. and Canada. The term is rarely heard here and I question if it the term is really that well know outside North American except for maybe Australia. Using 'gridiron' for this template would be like using 'soccer' instead of 'football' for the "Football in England" template. If this template is to continue as is then I would suggest it be renamed "Professional American, Canadian, and Indoor/Arena Football leagues in North America" or simply "Professional North American football leagues" just to cover the three main versions. Better, the Indoor & Arena football leagues should be split off to a new template for those leagues and leave this one to the "outdoor" game only. Straykat99 t 19:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Okay, perhaps I was a bit drastic with my edits. However, my changes have been wholesale reverted and the template once again lists amateur leagues like Canadian Junior Football League and non-North American leagues. There seems to be a consensus here to at the very least limit it to professional leagues based in North America, so I will be reverting to include only that for now. I think something along the lines of Straykat99's suggestion will work best in the long run. heqs ·:. 12:31, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
"Gridiron football" is a term that is used only in Australasia and not in the regions served by the various American and Canadian football leagues. The proper term for the template is professional football, with the American and Canadian variants described in the field of the template. If there should have been any change whatsoever before someone applied the name change, it should have been Template: Professional football leagues in North America and Europe or Template:Professional North American football leagues instead (otherwise NFL Europa and its ilk would have to be removed from the table). 147.70.242.40 ( talk) 18:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
As long as this template contains rugby union links Gridiron is not an appropriate name. Rugby football is not a kind of gridiron football. Either take the rugby links out or re-name it "Professional gridiron football leagues in North America (and rugby football leagues of Canada)".-- Jeff79 ( talk) 21:35, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Please stop moving to planned, since it WILL take place. Brady4mvp ( Talk) 00:28, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Dletter ( talk) 14:52, 17 June 2009 (UTC) I have to agree... the best case of this being the PSFL in 1992, which had training camps, preview shows on SportsChannel... and then folded 10 days before kickoff. While I agree that from what I have seen, I'd say I'm 95% sure that the 2009 season will happen, it still is not set in stone.
I realize that nothing's set in stone yet, but in the event the UFL does succeed, where will it be added to this chart? I assume major leagues along with the NFL (since the UFL isn't a minor league) or do you make a section for alternative leagues? 172.192.191.113 ( talk) 23:05, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
I am glad to see that the newly announced Arena Football 1 was added to this list, but I would argue that with most of the Arena Football 1 teams coming from the af2, and it not yet having played a single game, it shouldn't immediately be declared a "major" league. Maybe there isn't a major Indoor League right now until the next season starts and one of them proves itself to be the leader. Micah008 16:38, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
The XFL was not a "Major" League. The talent level was well below that of other simalar leagues. If the XFL was major, then the UFL is for sure a Major League. 172.190.78.74 ( talk) 01:34, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Personal views and opinions on the talent level of the XFL as well as comparisons to other similar leagues unless supported by a reliable source, a neutral third party source at that, constitutes original research and thus is unsuitable for Wikipedia. NBC and World Wrestling Federation Entertainment, Inc. at the time noted the XFL as a major league through press release and broadcasts. As for third party sources, TIME [1] and The Washington Post [2] are some of the established news sources that noted the XFL as a major league as well. "These are just the kind of fans the National Football League wants, and the kind that the World Wrestling Federation has been able to drag blindly into its new enterprise, the first major pro league to be launched since the three-season flop of the United States Football League (USFL) in the mid-'80s. The XFL is a joint venture by the World Wrestling Federation and NBC that debuted last Saturday night." -- Unquestionable Truth-- 03:26, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
In light of some of the arguments brought forth over what constitutes major league vs. minor league, I've decided to, as I did with the indoor football section, change the subdivisions for the pro teams instead to "national" and "regional." This makes it easier to establish criteria.
A national league is one that, after 1933, had teams in most parts of the country. Prior to 1933, it is a league that served most of the areas served by the other professional sport at the time, baseball. (Otherwise, the American Football League of 1926, which was national by the standards of the day, would likely be considered regional because it lacked a franchise in the South or West Coast.) Regional leagues have its teams concentrated in one part of the country (e.g. the East Coast, the South, the West Coast). Most of the minor leagues are regional. Most of the national leagues are major. This also eliminates debates over what constitutes "major" such as the XFL debate (as they were clearly national, though the major part is disputed); the only minor league that would be considered national was the Continental Football League, and even they had intended to be major at one point. J. Myrle Fuller ( talk) 21:47, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
We still dont have a consensus, i will change it back, if we cant comprimise. 172.190.200.137 ( talk) 01:07, 20 March 2010 (UTC) ..."Compromise" no the consensus is set I believe. You are more than welcome to argue your case and convince other members to agree with you, thus forming a new consensus. -- Unquestionable Truth-- 02:20, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
The problem with professional American football leagues is that all the pre-1946 leagues were regional in nature (the first league with a national scope with teams on both coasts was AFL II after it admitted the Los Angeles Bulldogs). On the other hand, the United States sports media quickly accepted the NFL as the major league upon the formation of the league in 1920. Similarly, any league in direct competition with the NFL was accorded "major" status regardless of whether it was regional or national in scope. The standard continued after the formation of the AAFC, AFL IV, WFL, and the USFL (but not XFL or WLAF). So adopting the "regional" vs. "national" distinction is essentially meaningless in professional American football, but the minor/major distinction is not only meaningful: it's traditionally consistent. B.Wind ( talk) 17:33, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
I am wondering how many of these leagues are really needed. Most of these look like they were someone's gee whiz idea but never got much beyond that. I think those leagues that had some actual influence are worth keeping at least. Among the ones I see:
Indoor: WIFL is worth keeping as it was the first proposed alternative to Arena and appears some work was done. The two NAIFLs would be worth deleting since they seem just like proposals that never got beyond paper. Extreme FL could be deleted since it just points to AF2 league anyways.
Outdoor: PSFL seems to have gotten close to running. AAFL (1998) and APFL in this category both seem like leagues that only existed on paper and nothing else. AAFL (2008), IFF, UNGL all seem borderline in that they did conduct some activities before folding. Mateinsixtynine ( talk) 19:55, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
None of the women's leagues are professional, they are all amateur, and should be removed because of this fact. The only women's league that is actually professional is the Lingerie Football League. Jntg4Games ( talk) 23:46, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
A non-league indoor football team, the Yuma Yahoos are in Yuma, Arizona, but I can't find anything about them online, they may had recently folded or disbanded. 67.49.89.214 ( talk) 16:06, 2 April 2017 (UTC)