France: Paris Template‑class | ||||||||||
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Cities Template‑class | |||||||
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This template was considered for deletion on 2007 November 20. The result of the discussion was "to keep". |
What is the purpose of this template ? When I read about Aulnay-sous-Bois, do I really need this list of all cities in Île-de-France which takes so much space on the page? I may want a list of the communes immediately sourrounding Aulnay, but nothing more. IMHO, the content of this template should be moved to a separate article like List of communes in the metropolitan area of Paris, which in turn could be linked from all concerned communes. Thbz 14:37, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
I removed the logo for the following reasons:
An image of the Eiffel tower or any other, non-proprietary, image that symbolizes Paris in the world may be used instead. Thbz 22:04, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
My creative skills are very small, but I made an attempt at providing an alternate image that everybody will understand. Tell me what you think of it. Feel free to remove it if you don't like it :) (Gimp is an open-source clone of Photoshop.) Thbz 20:29, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
The fair use guidelines are what we have to abide by even though we often would like not to! VK35 18:19, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
This infobox is about the metropolitan area and not the urban area of Paris. There's a difference between an urban area and a metropolitan area. An urban area is a central city and its contiguous built-up suburbs whereas a metropolitan area also includes satellite cities separated by countryside in between. There are communes in the list that are satellite cities separated from the urban area of Paris by countryside, such as Meaux for example. Be reasonable for a change and stop confusing definitions for people. Do you realize what you're doing? Do you mean the Paris urban area contains 12 million people?? Hardouin 15:14, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
First off, this template does not (and cannot) include every commune in the Paris aire urbaine (urban area) - contrary to what its title says it is. If anything, "communes in the Paris aire urbaine" should be a category.
In addition, this template's only purpose (and reason for existence) seems to be as a tool to promote Hardouin's insane theory that Paris is as big as the Île-de-France (or that the Paris aire urbaine is Paris) - I remember it originally had the Paris city logo on it but was told to remove it. It has also been placed into many articles concerning Paris quarters and Paris subjects - many of them irrelevent to this template - for reasons none to clear to the reader.
For all of the above reasons I think this template is pointless and misleading if used incorrectly, and I think it should be deleted. If perhaps an effort can be made to complete the list of communes it could have some use, but that would mean adding another over a thousand communes. Again, "communes in the Paris aire urbaine ("metropolitan area is an unsuitable and erronous translation - besides, the official translation is " urban area" so this should be used) is a category title, not a template. Please read other similar critiques above. THEPROMENADER 15:31, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no move. -- tariqabjotu 03:44, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
Template:Paris Metropolitan Area → Template:Paris urban area – The 'Paris Metropolitan area' does not exist as a translation of 'aire urbaine' in any official documentation, but the INSEE, France's official statistics bureau, has provided 'urban area' as the proper English term to use since years now. THEPROMENADER 15:24, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
When this template was created there was no real translation for aire urbaine, and even then the creation/use of the term 'Paris Metropolitan Area' was pure WP:OR. Today the official French statistics organization, the INSEE, provides an official translation for the term: 'urban area'. Thanks. THEPROMENADER 08:43, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
In fact I see that it is going much further than this single template, because The Promenader also rewrote the Paris aire urbaine article with those faulty English translations, again without discussing it with anyone. Der Statistiker ( talk) 13:31, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Let's also note that the generic article for the French aires urbaines is Metropolitan Area (France). The article Metropolitan area in its Metropolitan_area#France section also says: "In France the term for the region around an urban core linked by commuting ties is an aire urbaine (officially translated as "urban area")." I see that the article fr:Aire urbaine in French also specifically refers to the US metropolitan areas, and goes further by saying this: "Une urban area anglo-saxonne se rapproche plus d'une unité urbaine française." So it seems most editors, both at en.wikipedia and at fr.wikipedia, are in agreement that an aire urbaine is what's called a metropolitan area in English, and an urban area in English is what's called a unité urbaine in French. Der Statistiker ( talk) 13:46, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
(afterthought) Ok, I've made my case clear and even provided imbattable references on this talk page - there's no excuse to revert my edits now. And since I've seen this situation and the same vague arguments a thousand times before, don't even try answering with 'proof' links to Demographica (god knows where they get their information), Economic studies and other 'for-Paris-unaware' websites using 'local commonspeak' to refer to Paris - Wikipedia is not that, and there are a myriad of references available straight from the source for those who choose not to ignore them. THEPROMENADER 14:27, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
And you've destroyed the redirect; the least polite thing you can do is fix it. THEPROMENADER 14:56, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Ok, so if several editors agree, we should correct the Paris aire urbaine article, because The Promenader has translated "aire urbaine" as "urban area" everywhere in that article. I also wonder whether the article shouldn't be moved to "Paris Metropolitan Area", since it's preferable to use English terms rather than French terms (for example, "Départements of France" was moved to "Departments of France"). Der Statistiker ( talk) 13:58, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
Please note that The Promander has made changes in the template Paris Metropolitan Area that have massive consequences since this template is used in 268 articles, without discussing those changes with anyone beforehand or mentioning his changes here. In a nutshell, he insists on using the faulty English translation of aire urbaine as "urban area", when an aire urbaine, from its official definition (an urban core with a commuter belt around it) is in fact what's called a "metropolitan area" in English (what's called "urban area" in English is called unité urbaine by INSEE in French). There's a discussion about Promenader's changes here: Template_talk:Paris_Metropolitan_Area#Move_request_submitted. Der Statistiker ( talk) 13:26, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
In fact I see that it is going much further than this single template, because The Promenader also rewrote the Paris aire urbaine article with those faulty English translations, again without discussing it with anyone. Der Statistiker ( talk) 13:34, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Let's also note that the generic article for the French aires urbaines is Metropolitan Area (France). The article Metropolitan area in its Metropolitan_area#France section also says: "In France the term for the region around an urban core linked by commuting ties is an aire urbaine (officially translated as "urban area")." I see that the article fr:Aire urbaine in French also specifically refers to the US metropolitan areas, and goes further by saying this: "Une urban area anglo-saxonne se rapproche plus d'une unité urbaine française." So it seems most editors, both at en.wikipedia and at fr.wikipedia, are in agreement that an aire urbaine is what's called a metropolitan area in English, and an urban area in English is what's called a unité urbaine in French. Der Statistiker ( talk) 13:43, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
I'm not 'playing' with anything: and how is it possible that a lone Wikipedian can say that the translations provided by France's official statistics bureau are not 'acceptable'? You don't think that they have the smarts and the manpower to make the best translations for their own terminology? Why don't they themselves use 'metropolitan area' as a translation for the term of their own creation? Do a google for "Paris metropolitan area" - you will see a few Wikipedia articles, a Demographica link (and god knows where they get their information - probably Wikipedia), and the rest are publications for 'Paris area-unawares' audiences written in their 'local commonspeak' language. Again, Wikipedia is none of that: Wikipedia contributors can find the best possible references straight from the source, that is if they don't choose to ignore them in favour of their own fanciful agendas. THEPROMENADER 14:48, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
(Crickets chirping) Since there seems to be no need/desire at all for discussion about this matter (contrary to commentary tacked to the revert to this template by the single editor opposing its change/move), and since the little rational discussion on this page about this template's name seems to conclude that using the original French name is the best way to go, there is no excuse at all for further knee-jerk reverting. Let's see what other readers and contributors (where this template is used) think - for a change. Cheers. THEPROMENADER 21:35, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
In conclusion, it would be acceptable to use 'metropolitan area' as one of many possible offhand, in-writ general descriptions of '(something in) the area around Paris' (and this is excusable only for someone ignorant about Paris' function; even then, such an entry should be corrected later by someone more knowledgable), but if the term is used as a 'translation' for an existing and directly-referenced administrative or statistical area (as this template does), forget it. Cheers. THEPROMENADER 15:55, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm changing the template title (only) from its present WP:OR 'interpretation' state to 'aire urbaine', and if the outrage from the masses isn't too (cough) overwhelming, I'll be proposing a template move to the 'aire urbaine' namespace later on. I (and another contributor), have made the reasons for this change more than clear in the discussions above, so there is no excuse for reverting. Let's wait and see what happens. Cheers. THEPROMENADER 06:17, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
France: Paris Template‑class | ||||||||||
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Cities Template‑class | |||||||
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This template was considered for deletion on 2007 November 20. The result of the discussion was "to keep". |
What is the purpose of this template ? When I read about Aulnay-sous-Bois, do I really need this list of all cities in Île-de-France which takes so much space on the page? I may want a list of the communes immediately sourrounding Aulnay, but nothing more. IMHO, the content of this template should be moved to a separate article like List of communes in the metropolitan area of Paris, which in turn could be linked from all concerned communes. Thbz 14:37, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
I removed the logo for the following reasons:
An image of the Eiffel tower or any other, non-proprietary, image that symbolizes Paris in the world may be used instead. Thbz 22:04, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
My creative skills are very small, but I made an attempt at providing an alternate image that everybody will understand. Tell me what you think of it. Feel free to remove it if you don't like it :) (Gimp is an open-source clone of Photoshop.) Thbz 20:29, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
The fair use guidelines are what we have to abide by even though we often would like not to! VK35 18:19, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
This infobox is about the metropolitan area and not the urban area of Paris. There's a difference between an urban area and a metropolitan area. An urban area is a central city and its contiguous built-up suburbs whereas a metropolitan area also includes satellite cities separated by countryside in between. There are communes in the list that are satellite cities separated from the urban area of Paris by countryside, such as Meaux for example. Be reasonable for a change and stop confusing definitions for people. Do you realize what you're doing? Do you mean the Paris urban area contains 12 million people?? Hardouin 15:14, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
First off, this template does not (and cannot) include every commune in the Paris aire urbaine (urban area) - contrary to what its title says it is. If anything, "communes in the Paris aire urbaine" should be a category.
In addition, this template's only purpose (and reason for existence) seems to be as a tool to promote Hardouin's insane theory that Paris is as big as the Île-de-France (or that the Paris aire urbaine is Paris) - I remember it originally had the Paris city logo on it but was told to remove it. It has also been placed into many articles concerning Paris quarters and Paris subjects - many of them irrelevent to this template - for reasons none to clear to the reader.
For all of the above reasons I think this template is pointless and misleading if used incorrectly, and I think it should be deleted. If perhaps an effort can be made to complete the list of communes it could have some use, but that would mean adding another over a thousand communes. Again, "communes in the Paris aire urbaine ("metropolitan area is an unsuitable and erronous translation - besides, the official translation is " urban area" so this should be used) is a category title, not a template. Please read other similar critiques above. THEPROMENADER 15:31, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no move. -- tariqabjotu 03:44, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
Template:Paris Metropolitan Area → Template:Paris urban area – The 'Paris Metropolitan area' does not exist as a translation of 'aire urbaine' in any official documentation, but the INSEE, France's official statistics bureau, has provided 'urban area' as the proper English term to use since years now. THEPROMENADER 15:24, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
When this template was created there was no real translation for aire urbaine, and even then the creation/use of the term 'Paris Metropolitan Area' was pure WP:OR. Today the official French statistics organization, the INSEE, provides an official translation for the term: 'urban area'. Thanks. THEPROMENADER 08:43, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
In fact I see that it is going much further than this single template, because The Promenader also rewrote the Paris aire urbaine article with those faulty English translations, again without discussing it with anyone. Der Statistiker ( talk) 13:31, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Let's also note that the generic article for the French aires urbaines is Metropolitan Area (France). The article Metropolitan area in its Metropolitan_area#France section also says: "In France the term for the region around an urban core linked by commuting ties is an aire urbaine (officially translated as "urban area")." I see that the article fr:Aire urbaine in French also specifically refers to the US metropolitan areas, and goes further by saying this: "Une urban area anglo-saxonne se rapproche plus d'une unité urbaine française." So it seems most editors, both at en.wikipedia and at fr.wikipedia, are in agreement that an aire urbaine is what's called a metropolitan area in English, and an urban area in English is what's called a unité urbaine in French. Der Statistiker ( talk) 13:46, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
(afterthought) Ok, I've made my case clear and even provided imbattable references on this talk page - there's no excuse to revert my edits now. And since I've seen this situation and the same vague arguments a thousand times before, don't even try answering with 'proof' links to Demographica (god knows where they get their information), Economic studies and other 'for-Paris-unaware' websites using 'local commonspeak' to refer to Paris - Wikipedia is not that, and there are a myriad of references available straight from the source for those who choose not to ignore them. THEPROMENADER 14:27, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
And you've destroyed the redirect; the least polite thing you can do is fix it. THEPROMENADER 14:56, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Ok, so if several editors agree, we should correct the Paris aire urbaine article, because The Promenader has translated "aire urbaine" as "urban area" everywhere in that article. I also wonder whether the article shouldn't be moved to "Paris Metropolitan Area", since it's preferable to use English terms rather than French terms (for example, "Départements of France" was moved to "Departments of France"). Der Statistiker ( talk) 13:58, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
Please note that The Promander has made changes in the template Paris Metropolitan Area that have massive consequences since this template is used in 268 articles, without discussing those changes with anyone beforehand or mentioning his changes here. In a nutshell, he insists on using the faulty English translation of aire urbaine as "urban area", when an aire urbaine, from its official definition (an urban core with a commuter belt around it) is in fact what's called a "metropolitan area" in English (what's called "urban area" in English is called unité urbaine by INSEE in French). There's a discussion about Promenader's changes here: Template_talk:Paris_Metropolitan_Area#Move_request_submitted. Der Statistiker ( talk) 13:26, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
In fact I see that it is going much further than this single template, because The Promenader also rewrote the Paris aire urbaine article with those faulty English translations, again without discussing it with anyone. Der Statistiker ( talk) 13:34, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Let's also note that the generic article for the French aires urbaines is Metropolitan Area (France). The article Metropolitan area in its Metropolitan_area#France section also says: "In France the term for the region around an urban core linked by commuting ties is an aire urbaine (officially translated as "urban area")." I see that the article fr:Aire urbaine in French also specifically refers to the US metropolitan areas, and goes further by saying this: "Une urban area anglo-saxonne se rapproche plus d'une unité urbaine française." So it seems most editors, both at en.wikipedia and at fr.wikipedia, are in agreement that an aire urbaine is what's called a metropolitan area in English, and an urban area in English is what's called a unité urbaine in French. Der Statistiker ( talk) 13:43, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
I'm not 'playing' with anything: and how is it possible that a lone Wikipedian can say that the translations provided by France's official statistics bureau are not 'acceptable'? You don't think that they have the smarts and the manpower to make the best translations for their own terminology? Why don't they themselves use 'metropolitan area' as a translation for the term of their own creation? Do a google for "Paris metropolitan area" - you will see a few Wikipedia articles, a Demographica link (and god knows where they get their information - probably Wikipedia), and the rest are publications for 'Paris area-unawares' audiences written in their 'local commonspeak' language. Again, Wikipedia is none of that: Wikipedia contributors can find the best possible references straight from the source, that is if they don't choose to ignore them in favour of their own fanciful agendas. THEPROMENADER 14:48, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
(Crickets chirping) Since there seems to be no need/desire at all for discussion about this matter (contrary to commentary tacked to the revert to this template by the single editor opposing its change/move), and since the little rational discussion on this page about this template's name seems to conclude that using the original French name is the best way to go, there is no excuse at all for further knee-jerk reverting. Let's see what other readers and contributors (where this template is used) think - for a change. Cheers. THEPROMENADER 21:35, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
In conclusion, it would be acceptable to use 'metropolitan area' as one of many possible offhand, in-writ general descriptions of '(something in) the area around Paris' (and this is excusable only for someone ignorant about Paris' function; even then, such an entry should be corrected later by someone more knowledgable), but if the term is used as a 'translation' for an existing and directly-referenced administrative or statistical area (as this template does), forget it. Cheers. THEPROMENADER 15:55, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm changing the template title (only) from its present WP:OR 'interpretation' state to 'aire urbaine', and if the outrage from the masses isn't too (cough) overwhelming, I'll be proposing a template move to the 'aire urbaine' namespace later on. I (and another contributor), have made the reasons for this change more than clear in the discussions above, so there is no excuse for reverting. Let's wait and see what happens. Cheers. THEPROMENADER 06:17, 5 September 2013 (UTC)