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Scoping and image
I think that with regard to the Israeli and Palestinian geo templates, it was agreed to use the flag and not a map of the territory since it is POV either way. --
Shuki20:54, 4 July 2006 (UTC)reply
I concur and would support a reversion. A Palestinian state is envisioned on both more and less territory than the West Bank and Gaza Strip (not to mention territorial exchange). It is worth noting, though, that the geo-stub is specifically applied to places within those boundaries. TewfikTalk21:57, 6 July 2006 (UTC)reply
I've reworded the template accordingly - this will also save it from being confused with places in historical (pre 1948) Palestine.
Grutness...wha?00:02, 1 October 2006 (UTC)reply
Re: Ramallite's edit summary, I'm sure that we can all find an appropriate compromise. We all recognise that while there currently is no political entity called Palestine, this tag is practically going to apply to places in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Surely we can all meet halfway? Cheers, TewfikTalk01:57, 13 October 2006 (UTC)reply
This page is protected from moving - please do not move stub templates without first debating such moves. Arguing about the wording of the template is fine, but not moving it. As it is, the current name was debated and this name was decided upon as being the most suitable for it. PNA refers to many things, of which the Palestinian national Authority is but one.
PNA, in fact, redirects to a chemical!
The name is still not appropriate and will have to change once you unprotect. I'm very surprised by Tewfik's edit summary of "a government's territory, like 'geography of Israel,' or 'geography of New Zealand", which would only be accurate were it not called " geography of the Palestinian National Authority". The "Palestinian National Authority", unlike "Israel" and "New Zealand", is not the name of a territory and government, it's the name of a governing authority only. Let's leave aside the fact that it doesn't really govern anything and has no sovereignty over any of the land it 'governs' and actually covers more Area B than Area A and all that. The name of the template now is as utterly ridiculous as saying "Geography of the Government of Israel" or "Geography of the Chamber of Commerce of Toronto". Palestinian National Authority is not the name of a geographic location (unless one reads too much Israeli press, which sometimes uses it as such because they can't bring themselves to call it anything else). Completely unacceptable encyclopedically and grammatically. I think people here are smart enough to come up with something better, hopefully in proper English!
Ramallite(talk)15:23, 17 October 2006 (UTC)reply
I propose using Palestinian territories for geography stubs of this kind:
I agree with Ramallite that the current text is no good. I suggest splitting this into separate "West_Bank-geo-stub" and "Gaza_Strip-geo-stub" templates, because these are actually well-defined geographical regions with more-or-less agreed-upon borders.
-- uriber18:27, 25 March 2007 (UTC)reply
{{Editprotected}}. This suggestion is not specific enough for an admin to make the edit. If there is consensus for a split, i suggest first making the new templates, then migrating to them, rather than changing this one.
CMummert ·
talk20:29, 25 March 2007 (UTC)reply
Establishing such consensus would ideally involve
WP:WSS/P on the one hand, and the related wikiprojects on the other. As a number of places in the West Bank are currently tagged with {{Israel-geo-stub}}, it would be wise to be as clear as possible about whether the intended scope for this stub type (or the above suggested replacements) is "all of the WB&G", "the WB&G minus the Israeli settlements", "the areas under the control of the PNA", or some other formulation, and (here's hoping) as wide a consensus as possible about what that should be.
Alai08:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)reply
If the scope is "Palestinian territories" or "West Bank" (or "disputed territories", or "Judea and Samaria", or whatever form of words to that effect yer havin' yersel'), then the normal interpretation would be to follow internationally-recognised borders, i.e. to include such areas within such templates. (The borders of present states, or delineated state-free areas, such as {{Antarctica-geo-stub}}; hence the lack of (say) a {{Kurdistan-geo-stub}}, or an {{Ottoman-geo-stub}}.) The current scoping statement would seem to assume they're Israel-geo-stubs (or terranulla-geo-stub, or otherwise nosuch-geo-stub).
Alai20:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)reply
What internally recognized borders? Israel's borders are "undefined".
[1] "According to Ezrahi, a central problem is the undefined borders between the Israeli state and the Arab state. “No historians or religious leaders could agree what precisely were the borders of Israel …Israel became a borderless entity,” said Ezrahi. This, he argues, leads to problems between the army and the police. “In a normal country, the army is responsible for the security of external enemies and the police is supposed to deal with internal conflicts…but in Israel, we don’t know exactly what is internal and what is external, and it’s a very unhealthy situation." Further, the
Seam Zone lies within the
West Bank.
Tiamut09:14, 12 May 2007 (UTC)reply
This template is for articles about the geographical area called Palestine, an area that today includes Israel and the Palestinian territories, as well as parts of Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. It's not about Palestinians, and not about the political entity proclaimed in 1988,
State of Palestine, and not about the Palestinian authority. If you think that the scope does not include these, then the template needs to be renamed, to something such as "Geography of the proclaimed State of Palestine" or "Geography of the Palestinian Authority" .
Marokwitz (
talk)
10:37, 16 November 2010 (UTC)reply
The scope is everything related to being Palestinian. State, mandate, historical border, everything. So why have anything else but a Palestinian flag to represent this? --
Supreme Deliciousness (
talk)
10:45, 16 November 2010 (UTC)reply
Anything geographical in any way connected to different kinds of forms of Palestine, whether its historical Palestine, Mandate Palestine, Palestinian territories, State of Palestine, etc. --
Supreme Deliciousness (
talk)
11:04, 16 November 2010 (UTC)reply
Very strange. If this template covers Historical Palestine, Mandate Palestine (which have their own flags), why should this template use the flag used by the Palestinian People since 1964? And how would the reader know that the scope is "Anything geographical in any way connected to different kinds of forms of Palestine, whether its historical Palestine, Mandate Palestine, Palestinian territories, State of Palestine, etc", when that the template simply says "Geography of Palestine"?
Marokwitz (
talk)
11:12, 16 November 2010 (UTC)reply
The Israel geo stub doesn't say "State of Israel", the Syria geo stub doesn't say "Syrian Arab Republic". Syria has had about 15 different flags during these last 90 years:
[2], imagine if we had different geo stub flags for all of these, the modern Syria flag represents everything in the past, same thing with the Palestinian flag.--
Supreme Deliciousness (
talk)
11:19, 16 November 2010 (UTC)reply
I'm trying to understand your analogy. Are you are saying that the proclaimed State of Palestine and Mandate Palestine are both the same entity, or a succession of each other? If you are, this is quite a contentious claim. If not, then this template can't just bunch them together as if they were one thing.
Marokwitz (
talk)
11:28, 16 November 2010 (UTC)reply
Why 'contentious'? It was merely bold. The discussion is legitimate. There should be a split with regards to pre-1948 and after. SupremeDelicious, please suggest the scope. --
Shuki (
talk)
11:34, 16 November 2010 (UTC)reply
That's right, I created it. As I already explained, this template is for the geographical region known as
Palestine, and that's why it links to that article. This geographical area is presently shared by Israel and the Palestinian Authority. It doesn't have a flag. You clearly don't have consensus for reverting.
Marokwitz (
talk)
07:09, 3 December 2010 (UTC)reply
This template is maintained by WikiProject Stub sorting, an attempt to bring some sort of order to Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can choose to improve/expand the articles containing this stub notice, or visit the
project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.Stub sortingWikipedia:WikiProject Stub sortingTemplate:WikiProject Stub sortingStub sorting articles
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This template is within the scope of WikiProject Geography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
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This template is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic
Palestine region, the
Palestinian people and the
State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting
the project page, where you can add your name to the
list of members where you can contribute to the
discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related articles
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Other : add {{WPCountries}} to talk pages of related articles, and
assess.
Scoping and image
I think that with regard to the Israeli and Palestinian geo templates, it was agreed to use the flag and not a map of the territory since it is POV either way. --
Shuki20:54, 4 July 2006 (UTC)reply
I concur and would support a reversion. A Palestinian state is envisioned on both more and less territory than the West Bank and Gaza Strip (not to mention territorial exchange). It is worth noting, though, that the geo-stub is specifically applied to places within those boundaries. TewfikTalk21:57, 6 July 2006 (UTC)reply
I've reworded the template accordingly - this will also save it from being confused with places in historical (pre 1948) Palestine.
Grutness...wha?00:02, 1 October 2006 (UTC)reply
Re: Ramallite's edit summary, I'm sure that we can all find an appropriate compromise. We all recognise that while there currently is no political entity called Palestine, this tag is practically going to apply to places in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Surely we can all meet halfway? Cheers, TewfikTalk01:57, 13 October 2006 (UTC)reply
This page is protected from moving - please do not move stub templates without first debating such moves. Arguing about the wording of the template is fine, but not moving it. As it is, the current name was debated and this name was decided upon as being the most suitable for it. PNA refers to many things, of which the Palestinian national Authority is but one.
PNA, in fact, redirects to a chemical!
The name is still not appropriate and will have to change once you unprotect. I'm very surprised by Tewfik's edit summary of "a government's territory, like 'geography of Israel,' or 'geography of New Zealand", which would only be accurate were it not called " geography of the Palestinian National Authority". The "Palestinian National Authority", unlike "Israel" and "New Zealand", is not the name of a territory and government, it's the name of a governing authority only. Let's leave aside the fact that it doesn't really govern anything and has no sovereignty over any of the land it 'governs' and actually covers more Area B than Area A and all that. The name of the template now is as utterly ridiculous as saying "Geography of the Government of Israel" or "Geography of the Chamber of Commerce of Toronto". Palestinian National Authority is not the name of a geographic location (unless one reads too much Israeli press, which sometimes uses it as such because they can't bring themselves to call it anything else). Completely unacceptable encyclopedically and grammatically. I think people here are smart enough to come up with something better, hopefully in proper English!
Ramallite(talk)15:23, 17 October 2006 (UTC)reply
I propose using Palestinian territories for geography stubs of this kind:
I agree with Ramallite that the current text is no good. I suggest splitting this into separate "West_Bank-geo-stub" and "Gaza_Strip-geo-stub" templates, because these are actually well-defined geographical regions with more-or-less agreed-upon borders.
-- uriber18:27, 25 March 2007 (UTC)reply
{{Editprotected}}. This suggestion is not specific enough for an admin to make the edit. If there is consensus for a split, i suggest first making the new templates, then migrating to them, rather than changing this one.
CMummert ·
talk20:29, 25 March 2007 (UTC)reply
Establishing such consensus would ideally involve
WP:WSS/P on the one hand, and the related wikiprojects on the other. As a number of places in the West Bank are currently tagged with {{Israel-geo-stub}}, it would be wise to be as clear as possible about whether the intended scope for this stub type (or the above suggested replacements) is "all of the WB&G", "the WB&G minus the Israeli settlements", "the areas under the control of the PNA", or some other formulation, and (here's hoping) as wide a consensus as possible about what that should be.
Alai08:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)reply
If the scope is "Palestinian territories" or "West Bank" (or "disputed territories", or "Judea and Samaria", or whatever form of words to that effect yer havin' yersel'), then the normal interpretation would be to follow internationally-recognised borders, i.e. to include such areas within such templates. (The borders of present states, or delineated state-free areas, such as {{Antarctica-geo-stub}}; hence the lack of (say) a {{Kurdistan-geo-stub}}, or an {{Ottoman-geo-stub}}.) The current scoping statement would seem to assume they're Israel-geo-stubs (or terranulla-geo-stub, or otherwise nosuch-geo-stub).
Alai20:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)reply
What internally recognized borders? Israel's borders are "undefined".
[1] "According to Ezrahi, a central problem is the undefined borders between the Israeli state and the Arab state. “No historians or religious leaders could agree what precisely were the borders of Israel …Israel became a borderless entity,” said Ezrahi. This, he argues, leads to problems between the army and the police. “In a normal country, the army is responsible for the security of external enemies and the police is supposed to deal with internal conflicts…but in Israel, we don’t know exactly what is internal and what is external, and it’s a very unhealthy situation." Further, the
Seam Zone lies within the
West Bank.
Tiamut09:14, 12 May 2007 (UTC)reply
This template is for articles about the geographical area called Palestine, an area that today includes Israel and the Palestinian territories, as well as parts of Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. It's not about Palestinians, and not about the political entity proclaimed in 1988,
State of Palestine, and not about the Palestinian authority. If you think that the scope does not include these, then the template needs to be renamed, to something such as "Geography of the proclaimed State of Palestine" or "Geography of the Palestinian Authority" .
Marokwitz (
talk)
10:37, 16 November 2010 (UTC)reply
The scope is everything related to being Palestinian. State, mandate, historical border, everything. So why have anything else but a Palestinian flag to represent this? --
Supreme Deliciousness (
talk)
10:45, 16 November 2010 (UTC)reply
Anything geographical in any way connected to different kinds of forms of Palestine, whether its historical Palestine, Mandate Palestine, Palestinian territories, State of Palestine, etc. --
Supreme Deliciousness (
talk)
11:04, 16 November 2010 (UTC)reply
Very strange. If this template covers Historical Palestine, Mandate Palestine (which have their own flags), why should this template use the flag used by the Palestinian People since 1964? And how would the reader know that the scope is "Anything geographical in any way connected to different kinds of forms of Palestine, whether its historical Palestine, Mandate Palestine, Palestinian territories, State of Palestine, etc", when that the template simply says "Geography of Palestine"?
Marokwitz (
talk)
11:12, 16 November 2010 (UTC)reply
The Israel geo stub doesn't say "State of Israel", the Syria geo stub doesn't say "Syrian Arab Republic". Syria has had about 15 different flags during these last 90 years:
[2], imagine if we had different geo stub flags for all of these, the modern Syria flag represents everything in the past, same thing with the Palestinian flag.--
Supreme Deliciousness (
talk)
11:19, 16 November 2010 (UTC)reply
I'm trying to understand your analogy. Are you are saying that the proclaimed State of Palestine and Mandate Palestine are both the same entity, or a succession of each other? If you are, this is quite a contentious claim. If not, then this template can't just bunch them together as if they were one thing.
Marokwitz (
talk)
11:28, 16 November 2010 (UTC)reply
Why 'contentious'? It was merely bold. The discussion is legitimate. There should be a split with regards to pre-1948 and after. SupremeDelicious, please suggest the scope. --
Shuki (
talk)
11:34, 16 November 2010 (UTC)reply
That's right, I created it. As I already explained, this template is for the geographical region known as
Palestine, and that's why it links to that article. This geographical area is presently shared by Israel and the Palestinian Authority. It doesn't have a flag. You clearly don't have consensus for reverting.
Marokwitz (
talk)
07:09, 3 December 2010 (UTC)reply