![]() | This template was considered for deletion on 2013 July 13. The result of the discussion was "no consensus". |
The parameters such as
|years_active = |wars_and_battles = |offices = |networth = |known_for = |years_active = |residence = |nationality = |locality = |death_cause = |body_discovered = |resting_place =
are not neccessary. They are completely irrelevant, in fact. The infobox is supposed to be used in articles about peers, not murder victims, businessmen and warriors. I wanted to base the infobox on Template:Infobox Nobility. Information is presented much more clearly in that infobox. Surtsicna ( talk) 20:07, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Template:Infobox nobility has all these parameters:
| name =
| title =
| image =
| caption =
| alt =
| succession =
| more = no
| reign =
| reign-type =
| predecessor =
| successor =
| suc-type =
| succession =
| spouse =
| spouse-type =
| issue =
| issue-link =
| issue-pipe =
| full name =
| styles =
| titles =
| noble family =
| house-type =
| father =
| mother =
| date of birth =
| place of birth =
| date of christening =
| place of christening =
| date of christening =
| place of christening =
| date of death =
| place of death =
| date of burial =
| place of burial =
| occupation =
Template:Infobox person has even more! You always choose parameters, in any infobox. Honestly, I don't know what "spouse-type" or "issue-pipe" and the like means. In this peer infobox here you can put a person's title in the caption, or even the name field. Notable peers are notable for themselves, not because perhaps they had a direct predecessor or successor (many didn't have, because they were "parvenus", were attainted, or died without issue). All were born and died at some point, and it's more important to know when a person lived than anything else. And again, in feudalism, whence the phenomenon of nobility derives, they had to serve in armed conflicts by the definiton of their rank, and many did this in Europe's most famous wars yet without being military personnel in a modern sense. Regarding Template:Infobox nobility, I think it strange that when I look at Lettice Knollys, I have to look at all her husbands and children before I get to the date of birth (which, by the way, may easily be perceived as misogynic). There are also infoboxes like Mehmet II. In case you would like to make all person-related infoboxes uniform, please launch a campaign at WP:VILLAGEPUMP. I'd suggest you use Template:Infobox person in that case. Buchraeumer ( talk) 10:22, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
Ok. Before I nominate this for deletion, would someone please explain to me why exactly this Infobox is not entirely redundant to Infobox nobility? All peers are noble, but not all nobles are peers — the scope of this ibx is much smaller than an already-established one. Why reinvent a smaller wheel? D B D 22:28, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Comment from creator: Before I made this template I searched long and hard for an alternative, but could not find one. That was because Template:Infobox nobility existed, but wasn't categorised, so you'd have to stumble upon it by chance to know that there was one.
That being said, I still wouldn't replace this template with the nobility one. I created this template specifically with medieval peers in mind, and the role of the medieval peer (and early modern ones, I guess) was essentially different from that of modern, largely honorary peers. Their military, political, administrative and landowning roles were more important than the purely genealogical facts that seem to be the main focus of Template:Infobox nobility. "death cause" and "body discovered" are included because violent deaths were much more common back then. "locality" is essential, not only as the place of their main landholdings, but as the local community on which their power was based. "wars and battles" and "offices" reflect the fact that military service and (primarily military) office holding was considered the main responsibility of a medieval peer. Template:Infobox nobility, on the other hand, contains parameters that are redundant in a medieval context: the "date of christening" and "place of christening" are rarely known, and "occupation" is patently absurd.
The parameters of this template can certainly be improved upon (I notice that I've doubled up on "years active", for instance), and if anyone would like to rename it to "Template:Infobox medieval peer" or the like, I wouldn't object to that. But if it were to be deleted, then there would be many a poor medieval peer out there who would be very ill-served indeed on infobox information. Lampman ( talk) 01:03, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
The infobox is overcrowded with parameters. Networth, Locality, Years active, Cause of death and Residence are all trivial information while Known for is redundant and unneccessary. Networths of peers are hardly notable enough to be given a special parameter in the infobox. There is absolutely no reason to have a field for the cause of death; it is never used in Template:Infobox person unless the subject is known for their cause of death. Since peers are known for being peers and not for dying in a certain manner, the parameter must be removed. Locality and residence are also silly parameters.
The infobox in the article about Richard Neville, 16th Earl of Warwick, is ridiculously long. The title parameter is so far away from the predecessor and successor parameters that they are disconnected. The names of his predecessor and successor should be close to the title they shared.
Anyway, waging wars was their primary function in the Middle Ages. But there have been thousands of peers after the 15th century. The number of peers that never took part in a battle by far exceeds the number of peers that did. In modern times, many peers have served as politicians (and prime ministers, i.e. political leaders of the kingdom), yet I see no "Political party" parameter. The Spy Who Came in from the Cold ( talk) 16:53, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
It has been suggested that this template be merged with {{ Infobox officeholder}}. The discussion is located at Template talk:Infobox Officeholder#Infobox peer. -- Philosopher Let us reason together. 21:33, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
This template really needs improvement. The title should be displayed prominently, not relegated to the other fields. It should be displayed with an honorific prefix and suffix like Template:Infobox officeholder, which I like so much I use it for peers instead of this one. Also, can we change the color? If not, is there a way to manually change it? I really truly hate the lavenderish color. Should I just come up with an alternative or does anyone even care if I change it? —Мандичка YO 😜 13:59, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This template was considered for deletion on 2013 July 13. The result of the discussion was "no consensus". |
The parameters such as
|years_active = |wars_and_battles = |offices = |networth = |known_for = |years_active = |residence = |nationality = |locality = |death_cause = |body_discovered = |resting_place =
are not neccessary. They are completely irrelevant, in fact. The infobox is supposed to be used in articles about peers, not murder victims, businessmen and warriors. I wanted to base the infobox on Template:Infobox Nobility. Information is presented much more clearly in that infobox. Surtsicna ( talk) 20:07, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Template:Infobox nobility has all these parameters:
| name =
| title =
| image =
| caption =
| alt =
| succession =
| more = no
| reign =
| reign-type =
| predecessor =
| successor =
| suc-type =
| succession =
| spouse =
| spouse-type =
| issue =
| issue-link =
| issue-pipe =
| full name =
| styles =
| titles =
| noble family =
| house-type =
| father =
| mother =
| date of birth =
| place of birth =
| date of christening =
| place of christening =
| date of christening =
| place of christening =
| date of death =
| place of death =
| date of burial =
| place of burial =
| occupation =
Template:Infobox person has even more! You always choose parameters, in any infobox. Honestly, I don't know what "spouse-type" or "issue-pipe" and the like means. In this peer infobox here you can put a person's title in the caption, or even the name field. Notable peers are notable for themselves, not because perhaps they had a direct predecessor or successor (many didn't have, because they were "parvenus", were attainted, or died without issue). All were born and died at some point, and it's more important to know when a person lived than anything else. And again, in feudalism, whence the phenomenon of nobility derives, they had to serve in armed conflicts by the definiton of their rank, and many did this in Europe's most famous wars yet without being military personnel in a modern sense. Regarding Template:Infobox nobility, I think it strange that when I look at Lettice Knollys, I have to look at all her husbands and children before I get to the date of birth (which, by the way, may easily be perceived as misogynic). There are also infoboxes like Mehmet II. In case you would like to make all person-related infoboxes uniform, please launch a campaign at WP:VILLAGEPUMP. I'd suggest you use Template:Infobox person in that case. Buchraeumer ( talk) 10:22, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
Ok. Before I nominate this for deletion, would someone please explain to me why exactly this Infobox is not entirely redundant to Infobox nobility? All peers are noble, but not all nobles are peers — the scope of this ibx is much smaller than an already-established one. Why reinvent a smaller wheel? D B D 22:28, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Comment from creator: Before I made this template I searched long and hard for an alternative, but could not find one. That was because Template:Infobox nobility existed, but wasn't categorised, so you'd have to stumble upon it by chance to know that there was one.
That being said, I still wouldn't replace this template with the nobility one. I created this template specifically with medieval peers in mind, and the role of the medieval peer (and early modern ones, I guess) was essentially different from that of modern, largely honorary peers. Their military, political, administrative and landowning roles were more important than the purely genealogical facts that seem to be the main focus of Template:Infobox nobility. "death cause" and "body discovered" are included because violent deaths were much more common back then. "locality" is essential, not only as the place of their main landholdings, but as the local community on which their power was based. "wars and battles" and "offices" reflect the fact that military service and (primarily military) office holding was considered the main responsibility of a medieval peer. Template:Infobox nobility, on the other hand, contains parameters that are redundant in a medieval context: the "date of christening" and "place of christening" are rarely known, and "occupation" is patently absurd.
The parameters of this template can certainly be improved upon (I notice that I've doubled up on "years active", for instance), and if anyone would like to rename it to "Template:Infobox medieval peer" or the like, I wouldn't object to that. But if it were to be deleted, then there would be many a poor medieval peer out there who would be very ill-served indeed on infobox information. Lampman ( talk) 01:03, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
The infobox is overcrowded with parameters. Networth, Locality, Years active, Cause of death and Residence are all trivial information while Known for is redundant and unneccessary. Networths of peers are hardly notable enough to be given a special parameter in the infobox. There is absolutely no reason to have a field for the cause of death; it is never used in Template:Infobox person unless the subject is known for their cause of death. Since peers are known for being peers and not for dying in a certain manner, the parameter must be removed. Locality and residence are also silly parameters.
The infobox in the article about Richard Neville, 16th Earl of Warwick, is ridiculously long. The title parameter is so far away from the predecessor and successor parameters that they are disconnected. The names of his predecessor and successor should be close to the title they shared.
Anyway, waging wars was their primary function in the Middle Ages. But there have been thousands of peers after the 15th century. The number of peers that never took part in a battle by far exceeds the number of peers that did. In modern times, many peers have served as politicians (and prime ministers, i.e. political leaders of the kingdom), yet I see no "Political party" parameter. The Spy Who Came in from the Cold ( talk) 16:53, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
It has been suggested that this template be merged with {{ Infobox officeholder}}. The discussion is located at Template talk:Infobox Officeholder#Infobox peer. -- Philosopher Let us reason together. 21:33, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
This template really needs improvement. The title should be displayed prominently, not relegated to the other fields. It should be displayed with an honorific prefix and suffix like Template:Infobox officeholder, which I like so much I use it for peers instead of this one. Also, can we change the color? If not, is there a way to manually change it? I really truly hate the lavenderish color. Should I just come up with an alternative or does anyone even care if I change it? —Мандичка YO 😜 13:59, 6 August 2015 (UTC)