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An anonymous user keeps making unnecessary additions this template. The period before history was written down, by definition, is "prehistory" and does not belong in "history". The Hong Bang section barely fits the description of "history" because there is no evidence of it. DHN 02:15, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I need someone to change " Later Trần Dynasty" to " Posterior Trần Dynasty". I just finish the page " Talk:Vietnam during the Great War", unfortunately it's a talk page, can you make it become an official article, because I can't log in. 66.53.218.105
Thank you but: what's about my second request? 66.53.218.105
Thank again! And I want change something may be not important, I want to use the name " Union of Indochina" instead of " French Indochina", even though they're the same. Also, the Vietnamese word "Bắc thuộc" in the dictionary, it really means "Northern dependency" or "Northern domination", and sometime it is also translated as "Period of domination by Northern invaders". So, may you change all 4 period of "Chinese domination" become "Northern dependency" or "Northern domination", ex. "First Northern domination". I tell you my idea, I don't want to use any name from foreign countries in this Vietnamese template. 66.53.218.105
I would like to change the name "French Indochina" to "Union of Indochina" and add Great War (1914 - 1918) into the template. 66.53.218.105 05:25, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Wrong! Then " Lady Triệu's Rebellion and Mai Hắc Đế are also not periods but events. But I can tell you real reason why I want to add 2 world wars. 66.53.218.105
It is a name that is unsupported by literature (in particular, nothing in the Trung Sisters article itself suggested the use of "Trung Queen" is accepted). -- Nlu ( talk) 06:35, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Can we all please stop pretending that everyone believes that the Trieu dynsaty was a period of Chinese domination? The template as it stands does not reflect reality. There are still history books out there that list the Trieu dynasty as a Vietnamese dynasty. So would be all right to fix the template to reflect this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.105.145.175 ( talk) 10:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Do we recognize the dates when the government was in power, or when it existed? Yellowtailshark ( talk) 04:52, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
According to vi:Bắc thuộc, the first Chinese domination started in 111 BC, the Later Le Dynasty ended in 1527 and continued in 1533, the DRVN last continuously until 1976 and there is no interruption. Although in 1949 the State of Vietnam was formed, but the DRVN still existed, both declared themselves the governments of VN, there's no boundary between 2 gov. until 1954. Kinh Duong Vuong ( talk) 17:23, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Does any RS refer to the post-1945 period as "Republic"? It strikes me as an unusual terminology. There should separate entries for 1945-1975 and post-1975. Kauffner ( talk) 15:45, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
this sidebar is currently using colouring to distinguish between BC and AD, which is problematic for screen readers and the colour blind. I plan to fix this in a moment. Frietjes ( talk) 22:08, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
The Viet Cong government is a relevant period as they occupied Southern Vietnam for a year before the official unification and had a separate government, bureaucracy, and currency (the Liberation Dong) before merging with the Democratic Republic of Viet Nam. -- 58.187.165.232 ( talk) 05:16, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
@ Laksa666:, regarding this edit, the image was created specifically to illustrate various periods of Vietnamese history. It replaced the blue dragon that I deliberately added to the background and the text "History of Vietnam" written in three (3) scripts that were used to write the Vietnamese language throughout its history. The map is a lot less neutral as it only shows the Eastern Indochinese peninsula during a single year and was created by Europeans, while this image shows the changing Vietnamese language over the centuries with a Vietnamese dragon, the symbol of the Vietnamese realm for over millennia.
I think that for conveying the concept of "the history of Vietnam" in a single image that only shows Vietnam in a single year and isn't even in Vietnamese that the map fails in many places where the Vietnamese-language changing over the many centuries doesn't. -- Donald Trung ( talk) 16:06, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
<noinclude> {{History of Asia templates}} [[Category:History of Vietnam templates| ]] </noinclude>
In this revision user " Adungtran" changed this template to a version of the above (or to the right for desktop users), later this was reverted because "good changes, but fucks up every page the template is used on.... Some change needs to be done so this is not the case before it can be used! (ps. dont change the link to the navbar to "History of Viet Nam"), it doesnt link correctly then!)". But then the original user never came back to make some corrections.
I honestly really like some of these changes and brought a different version of this template here for scrutiny, but I think that it would work better if it collapsible like the current template. I think perhaps we could make a version based on " Template:History of China" where the chronology is visualised like this while still being collapsible. -- Donald Trung ( talk) 14:15, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
Hello @ Lachy70:, and thank you for trying to improve these images, I would like to discuss some aspects of them and enquire about a number of choices made in your versions. First (1st) of all thank you for the improvements that you did make, as these are highly visible images which appear on a lot of frequently visited pages concerning the histories of Vietnam, Huế, and Hanoi.
Both the images " File:Lichsuhanoimoi.png" and " File:Lichsuvietnammoi.png" use the One Pillar Pagoda, but not just the One Pillar Pagoda, it's located right behind the text making the last parts difficult to read if the image is only a small part of the article, something which a template header literally is. Furthermore, the reason why the "History of Hanoi" image uses the One Pillar Pagoda is because it's an ancient structure that has seen almost a millennium of Hanoi's history, basing this on the " File:"History of China" for template heading (right-to-left).svg" the "History of Vietnam" image had a dragon in the background because the previous version of this infobox and I didn't want to remove it. Throughout most of Vietnamese history the dragon has been the symbol of the state, meanwhile the image of the One Pillar Pagoda comes from a French Indo-Chinese commemorative postage stamp issued in honour of the Golden Gate International Exposition (GGIE) held in San Francisco, United States of America, at the time the city of Hanoi was a French concession city separated from the Nguyễn Dynasty in 1888 and it commonly used the One Pillar Pagoda on city symbols, it wasn't until the Socialist Republic of Vietnam period that the One Pillar Pagoda would appear on the 1985 20 Đồng banknote (also notice that the One Pillar Pagoda here is used as the symbol of the Art-Hanoi website). In fact, I specifically created the "History of Hanoi" image because I thought that it would "look cool" to emulate the "History of Vietnam" image for Hanoi (as I'm planning on writing almost a dozen articles about Hanoian history) "but with a good local symbol" and used the San Francisco commemorative stamp as a basis for this separate image, but by giving both the Vietnamese national and Hanoian local history templates the same background image it actually takes away from the "uniqueness" of Hanoi's local and distinct history.
In fact, because I liked the result of the "History of Hanoi" image I made separate ones for Haiphong, Hồ Chí Minh City, and Huế. The idea behind them is that they should showcase something local to the area but emulate the style of the national image (which itself is a localised version of the "History of China" image).
Does it work as a symbol for Vietnam? Yeah, but I'm sure that people from Southern Vietnam might say that the Bến Thành Market is more representative and someone from Central Vietnam might think the same of Huế. What I'm trying to say is that the Chinese dragon works as an abstract representation of Vietnamese history because it's a symbol shared both throughout Vietnam and throughout Vietnamese history.
Modern Vietnamese calligraphy is essentially just Chinese calligraphy but adapted to Latin script, no matter what some Chinese nationalists / East Asian Vietnam-Exclusionists who claim that Vietnam's inclusion in the Sinosphere is "Not reflective of East Asian context of article" think, it is primarily a decorative tradition that (like Chinese calligraphy in Mainland China and Taiwan) has lost most of its relevance in people's daily lives beyond ceremonial and decorative purposes. In fact, Chinese seal script hasn't been used in any official purposes for over half a century anywhere in the world other than Taiwan and even in Taiwan the ability to read Chinese seal script is a rarity, I have several Taiwanese friends with Master's degrees and PhD's and literally none of them can read Chinese seal script, beyond Taiwanese (Republic of China) government institutions and Japanese national government ceremonies nobody actually uses Chinese seal script in any official capacity anywhere in the world, so who in modern Vietnam, mainland China, Hong Kong, South Korea, Etc. can read Chinese seal script today? Calligraphers, beyond those with an interest in calligraphy the ability to read and write Chinese seal script is rare. Calligraphers have a place in society, but I wouldn't say that beyond those who have a fondness of tradition that they enjoy much success or influence.
Both the Tuyên ngôn độc lập của nước Việt Nam Dân chủ Cộng hòa and the Tuyên ngôn độc lập của nước Việt Nam Đế quốc are written in standardised Latin script. Even on documents where handwritten Traditional Chinese characters were still found, the Latin script writing was always standardised. I'd argue that to some extend the continued existence of Vietnamese calligraphy is an anachronism where a Chinese literary cultural tradition has persisted long after the abolition of Chinese scripts in the country (exactly like how modern Korean calligraphy works).
Yes, both the heads of the State of Vietnam and the Democratic Republic of Vietnam used classical Chinese-style seals, as can be seen here and here, but even in this case the Latinised Vietnamese is written on the "Grand sceau de l'Etat du Vietnam" are used using modern standard Latin letters and not Vietnamese calligraphy.
So the question remains, "how relevant has Latin Vietnamese calligraphic writing ever been in Vietnamese history?" Based on what I have been able to find I would say "Not very (relevant), beyond its continued usage in traditional holidays and festivals".
Another point of comparison is the size of the seals, using " File:"History of China" for template heading (right-to-left).svg" (the original base on which all other Sinitic history template headers are based) as a point of comparison, the original design by user "Lệ Xuân" includes a seal which is only slightly bigger as each of the traditional Chinese characters next to it, I tried emulating this style but I had to make the seal significantly bigger in comparison because I was now working with 3 (three) scripts instead of only 2 (two). The end result showed Chinese seal script characters that were around the same size as the Traditional Chinese characters, but the overal size still matched that of the "History of China" image.
In the current version the seal is waaaayyyy too big, it looks like the main text is the seal and the Latin and Traditional Chinese texts are only secondary to the seal, as noted before based on the design by user "Lệ Xuân", the seal is also somewhat decorative and shouldn't be the main focus, rather (I think) it should be on a largely equal footing with the other scripts as Chinese seal script was the script of Ancient Vietnam while Traditional Chinese characters represent Imperial Vietnam, and Latin script the Vietnamese government from 1933~1934 onwards.
I'd argue that the text being on top of a transparent Chinese dragon works for the "History of Vietnam" image because the Chinese dragon is both very recognisable and visible, but for the "History of Hanoi" and "History of Huế" images the images of the One Pillar Pagoda and the City Walls of Huế are deliberately kept separate from the text to keep the images readable for all screen sizes. The newer versions of these images all fail at this (see the side-by-side comparison).
I admit that I don't think that my designs are perfect either, for example the "History of Huế" image was created using an old French Indo-Chinese banknote and the robot I employed to remove the background didn't properly do it at the flagpole, so I can see why the entire flagpole area was removed, likewise the Latin word "Huế" and the Traditional Chinese character "歷" (Lịch) both look a bit too small, though this is mostly because I couldn't resize those elements in Inkscape. I'm very open to others improving the images I've uploaded, in fact I have even invited others to do so, but I am not sure if these other versions are an overall improvement.
Originally this image was replaced in December 2021 by user "Heliitonn" with their version, my guess is also that they preferred to see Vietnamese calligraphy and they might have seen the Traditional Chinese characters as "redundant" because it already included Chinese seal script characters, though the seal they made seems to read either Việt Nam Lịch sử (越南歷史) in Classical Chinese or Lịch sử Việt Nam (歷史越南) using the up-to-down-left-to-right writing style (though as far as I can tell even modern Vietnamese Chinese seal script seals are up-to-down-right-to-left). Alternatively, the image could have also been made to remove the prominence of Traditional Chinese characters from the image, we can't know until the author themselves clarify their motivations.
-- Donald Trung ( talk) 17:09, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
Everyone knows that either Chinese and French languages are forced upon Vietnam throughout its history as they were colonizers, brutal evil colonialists, inspirations for fascist regimes like Adolf Hitler's Lebensraum and Israeli colonisation of Palestine. Using colonialists' language as the headline to define the country's history is at best the racist colonizer's mentality of imposing, subjugating his worldview into the "Other". Sinocentrism and Eurocentrism, oppose each other, but sharing the same fashion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:647:6510:DCF5:CA02:5F2E:9415:FC2A ( talk) 18:37, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
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content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||
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An anonymous user keeps making unnecessary additions this template. The period before history was written down, by definition, is "prehistory" and does not belong in "history". The Hong Bang section barely fits the description of "history" because there is no evidence of it. DHN 02:15, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I need someone to change " Later Trần Dynasty" to " Posterior Trần Dynasty". I just finish the page " Talk:Vietnam during the Great War", unfortunately it's a talk page, can you make it become an official article, because I can't log in. 66.53.218.105
Thank you but: what's about my second request? 66.53.218.105
Thank again! And I want change something may be not important, I want to use the name " Union of Indochina" instead of " French Indochina", even though they're the same. Also, the Vietnamese word "Bắc thuộc" in the dictionary, it really means "Northern dependency" or "Northern domination", and sometime it is also translated as "Period of domination by Northern invaders". So, may you change all 4 period of "Chinese domination" become "Northern dependency" or "Northern domination", ex. "First Northern domination". I tell you my idea, I don't want to use any name from foreign countries in this Vietnamese template. 66.53.218.105
I would like to change the name "French Indochina" to "Union of Indochina" and add Great War (1914 - 1918) into the template. 66.53.218.105 05:25, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Wrong! Then " Lady Triệu's Rebellion and Mai Hắc Đế are also not periods but events. But I can tell you real reason why I want to add 2 world wars. 66.53.218.105
It is a name that is unsupported by literature (in particular, nothing in the Trung Sisters article itself suggested the use of "Trung Queen" is accepted). -- Nlu ( talk) 06:35, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Can we all please stop pretending that everyone believes that the Trieu dynsaty was a period of Chinese domination? The template as it stands does not reflect reality. There are still history books out there that list the Trieu dynasty as a Vietnamese dynasty. So would be all right to fix the template to reflect this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.105.145.175 ( talk) 10:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Do we recognize the dates when the government was in power, or when it existed? Yellowtailshark ( talk) 04:52, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
According to vi:Bắc thuộc, the first Chinese domination started in 111 BC, the Later Le Dynasty ended in 1527 and continued in 1533, the DRVN last continuously until 1976 and there is no interruption. Although in 1949 the State of Vietnam was formed, but the DRVN still existed, both declared themselves the governments of VN, there's no boundary between 2 gov. until 1954. Kinh Duong Vuong ( talk) 17:23, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Does any RS refer to the post-1945 period as "Republic"? It strikes me as an unusual terminology. There should separate entries for 1945-1975 and post-1975. Kauffner ( talk) 15:45, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
this sidebar is currently using colouring to distinguish between BC and AD, which is problematic for screen readers and the colour blind. I plan to fix this in a moment. Frietjes ( talk) 22:08, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
The Viet Cong government is a relevant period as they occupied Southern Vietnam for a year before the official unification and had a separate government, bureaucracy, and currency (the Liberation Dong) before merging with the Democratic Republic of Viet Nam. -- 58.187.165.232 ( talk) 05:16, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
@ Laksa666:, regarding this edit, the image was created specifically to illustrate various periods of Vietnamese history. It replaced the blue dragon that I deliberately added to the background and the text "History of Vietnam" written in three (3) scripts that were used to write the Vietnamese language throughout its history. The map is a lot less neutral as it only shows the Eastern Indochinese peninsula during a single year and was created by Europeans, while this image shows the changing Vietnamese language over the centuries with a Vietnamese dragon, the symbol of the Vietnamese realm for over millennia.
I think that for conveying the concept of "the history of Vietnam" in a single image that only shows Vietnam in a single year and isn't even in Vietnamese that the map fails in many places where the Vietnamese-language changing over the many centuries doesn't. -- Donald Trung ( talk) 16:06, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
<noinclude> {{History of Asia templates}} [[Category:History of Vietnam templates| ]] </noinclude>
In this revision user " Adungtran" changed this template to a version of the above (or to the right for desktop users), later this was reverted because "good changes, but fucks up every page the template is used on.... Some change needs to be done so this is not the case before it can be used! (ps. dont change the link to the navbar to "History of Viet Nam"), it doesnt link correctly then!)". But then the original user never came back to make some corrections.
I honestly really like some of these changes and brought a different version of this template here for scrutiny, but I think that it would work better if it collapsible like the current template. I think perhaps we could make a version based on " Template:History of China" where the chronology is visualised like this while still being collapsible. -- Donald Trung ( talk) 14:15, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
Hello @ Lachy70:, and thank you for trying to improve these images, I would like to discuss some aspects of them and enquire about a number of choices made in your versions. First (1st) of all thank you for the improvements that you did make, as these are highly visible images which appear on a lot of frequently visited pages concerning the histories of Vietnam, Huế, and Hanoi.
Both the images " File:Lichsuhanoimoi.png" and " File:Lichsuvietnammoi.png" use the One Pillar Pagoda, but not just the One Pillar Pagoda, it's located right behind the text making the last parts difficult to read if the image is only a small part of the article, something which a template header literally is. Furthermore, the reason why the "History of Hanoi" image uses the One Pillar Pagoda is because it's an ancient structure that has seen almost a millennium of Hanoi's history, basing this on the " File:"History of China" for template heading (right-to-left).svg" the "History of Vietnam" image had a dragon in the background because the previous version of this infobox and I didn't want to remove it. Throughout most of Vietnamese history the dragon has been the symbol of the state, meanwhile the image of the One Pillar Pagoda comes from a French Indo-Chinese commemorative postage stamp issued in honour of the Golden Gate International Exposition (GGIE) held in San Francisco, United States of America, at the time the city of Hanoi was a French concession city separated from the Nguyễn Dynasty in 1888 and it commonly used the One Pillar Pagoda on city symbols, it wasn't until the Socialist Republic of Vietnam period that the One Pillar Pagoda would appear on the 1985 20 Đồng banknote (also notice that the One Pillar Pagoda here is used as the symbol of the Art-Hanoi website). In fact, I specifically created the "History of Hanoi" image because I thought that it would "look cool" to emulate the "History of Vietnam" image for Hanoi (as I'm planning on writing almost a dozen articles about Hanoian history) "but with a good local symbol" and used the San Francisco commemorative stamp as a basis for this separate image, but by giving both the Vietnamese national and Hanoian local history templates the same background image it actually takes away from the "uniqueness" of Hanoi's local and distinct history.
In fact, because I liked the result of the "History of Hanoi" image I made separate ones for Haiphong, Hồ Chí Minh City, and Huế. The idea behind them is that they should showcase something local to the area but emulate the style of the national image (which itself is a localised version of the "History of China" image).
Does it work as a symbol for Vietnam? Yeah, but I'm sure that people from Southern Vietnam might say that the Bến Thành Market is more representative and someone from Central Vietnam might think the same of Huế. What I'm trying to say is that the Chinese dragon works as an abstract representation of Vietnamese history because it's a symbol shared both throughout Vietnam and throughout Vietnamese history.
Modern Vietnamese calligraphy is essentially just Chinese calligraphy but adapted to Latin script, no matter what some Chinese nationalists / East Asian Vietnam-Exclusionists who claim that Vietnam's inclusion in the Sinosphere is "Not reflective of East Asian context of article" think, it is primarily a decorative tradition that (like Chinese calligraphy in Mainland China and Taiwan) has lost most of its relevance in people's daily lives beyond ceremonial and decorative purposes. In fact, Chinese seal script hasn't been used in any official purposes for over half a century anywhere in the world other than Taiwan and even in Taiwan the ability to read Chinese seal script is a rarity, I have several Taiwanese friends with Master's degrees and PhD's and literally none of them can read Chinese seal script, beyond Taiwanese (Republic of China) government institutions and Japanese national government ceremonies nobody actually uses Chinese seal script in any official capacity anywhere in the world, so who in modern Vietnam, mainland China, Hong Kong, South Korea, Etc. can read Chinese seal script today? Calligraphers, beyond those with an interest in calligraphy the ability to read and write Chinese seal script is rare. Calligraphers have a place in society, but I wouldn't say that beyond those who have a fondness of tradition that they enjoy much success or influence.
Both the Tuyên ngôn độc lập của nước Việt Nam Dân chủ Cộng hòa and the Tuyên ngôn độc lập của nước Việt Nam Đế quốc are written in standardised Latin script. Even on documents where handwritten Traditional Chinese characters were still found, the Latin script writing was always standardised. I'd argue that to some extend the continued existence of Vietnamese calligraphy is an anachronism where a Chinese literary cultural tradition has persisted long after the abolition of Chinese scripts in the country (exactly like how modern Korean calligraphy works).
Yes, both the heads of the State of Vietnam and the Democratic Republic of Vietnam used classical Chinese-style seals, as can be seen here and here, but even in this case the Latinised Vietnamese is written on the "Grand sceau de l'Etat du Vietnam" are used using modern standard Latin letters and not Vietnamese calligraphy.
So the question remains, "how relevant has Latin Vietnamese calligraphic writing ever been in Vietnamese history?" Based on what I have been able to find I would say "Not very (relevant), beyond its continued usage in traditional holidays and festivals".
Another point of comparison is the size of the seals, using " File:"History of China" for template heading (right-to-left).svg" (the original base on which all other Sinitic history template headers are based) as a point of comparison, the original design by user "Lệ Xuân" includes a seal which is only slightly bigger as each of the traditional Chinese characters next to it, I tried emulating this style but I had to make the seal significantly bigger in comparison because I was now working with 3 (three) scripts instead of only 2 (two). The end result showed Chinese seal script characters that were around the same size as the Traditional Chinese characters, but the overal size still matched that of the "History of China" image.
In the current version the seal is waaaayyyy too big, it looks like the main text is the seal and the Latin and Traditional Chinese texts are only secondary to the seal, as noted before based on the design by user "Lệ Xuân", the seal is also somewhat decorative and shouldn't be the main focus, rather (I think) it should be on a largely equal footing with the other scripts as Chinese seal script was the script of Ancient Vietnam while Traditional Chinese characters represent Imperial Vietnam, and Latin script the Vietnamese government from 1933~1934 onwards.
I'd argue that the text being on top of a transparent Chinese dragon works for the "History of Vietnam" image because the Chinese dragon is both very recognisable and visible, but for the "History of Hanoi" and "History of Huế" images the images of the One Pillar Pagoda and the City Walls of Huế are deliberately kept separate from the text to keep the images readable for all screen sizes. The newer versions of these images all fail at this (see the side-by-side comparison).
I admit that I don't think that my designs are perfect either, for example the "History of Huế" image was created using an old French Indo-Chinese banknote and the robot I employed to remove the background didn't properly do it at the flagpole, so I can see why the entire flagpole area was removed, likewise the Latin word "Huế" and the Traditional Chinese character "歷" (Lịch) both look a bit too small, though this is mostly because I couldn't resize those elements in Inkscape. I'm very open to others improving the images I've uploaded, in fact I have even invited others to do so, but I am not sure if these other versions are an overall improvement.
Originally this image was replaced in December 2021 by user "Heliitonn" with their version, my guess is also that they preferred to see Vietnamese calligraphy and they might have seen the Traditional Chinese characters as "redundant" because it already included Chinese seal script characters, though the seal they made seems to read either Việt Nam Lịch sử (越南歷史) in Classical Chinese or Lịch sử Việt Nam (歷史越南) using the up-to-down-left-to-right writing style (though as far as I can tell even modern Vietnamese Chinese seal script seals are up-to-down-right-to-left). Alternatively, the image could have also been made to remove the prominence of Traditional Chinese characters from the image, we can't know until the author themselves clarify their motivations.
-- Donald Trung ( talk) 17:09, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
Everyone knows that either Chinese and French languages are forced upon Vietnam throughout its history as they were colonizers, brutal evil colonialists, inspirations for fascist regimes like Adolf Hitler's Lebensraum and Israeli colonisation of Palestine. Using colonialists' language as the headline to define the country's history is at best the racist colonizer's mentality of imposing, subjugating his worldview into the "Other". Sinocentrism and Eurocentrism, oppose each other, but sharing the same fashion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:647:6510:DCF5:CA02:5F2E:9415:FC2A ( talk) 18:37, 28 December 2023 (UTC)