![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
As noted below, I am not insisting on this list or even this definition, but let me explain the list inclusion criteria, as far as I am concerned (and the inclusion critiera may very well include other articles that I didn't think of; I considered including Wuhuan but decided not do, because I don't think there's sufficient evidence that the Wuhuan controlled substantial parts, if any, of modern Manchuria. My inclusion criteria are:
(Again, Wuhuan was my basic "close, but not quite" drawn line; Rouran may fall into the same category.) -- Nlu ( talk) 15:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I think Gija Joseon and Wiman Joseon should be left out, as the term "Gojoseon" encompasses them both. And you have also included ethnicties, not just states. That may complicate things a bit. Cydevil 09:19, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
History of Manchuria is very rich but also complicated to better understand its history i suggest to divide that region in six sectors have a look at map 1 map 2 and map 3 :
Conclusion :
I think this is a good starting point for an eventual article. For a template, this is too complex. -- Nlu ( talk) 12:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
There are still some mistakes in my "article/template" but i will try to improve it later
Regardless of its origin, the word "Manchuria" was already established in the English language by the early 20th century before the "puppet regime". See:
And the current English dictionaries still list "Manchuria". See:
"Manchuria" was a name given by the Europeans, and there seems to be no alternative name for it in English except a descriptive one such as "a region in northeast China". "Dongbei" is not listed in the English dictionaries.-- Endroit 16:53, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
What is Nan Zhao? I have never heard of that having a connection to Goguryeo. Goguryeo was a completely independent kingdom during the three kingdoms period. Good friend100 03:37, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't see any sources. Good friend100 01:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
A destroyed Korean kingdom that is assimilated into China doesn't mean that the Korean kingdom is automatically part of China. Good friend100 19:48, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
With this in mind, I will be reverting the template again, if you have any further questions, please talk first. Assault11 13:55, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Whlee, it was a request - not a warning. I have done nothing wrong. And regarding your questions:
A) Yes, they are "Dongbei Ren" (or Northeasterners) as along as they are born within modern Northeast China - regardless of ethnicity, however this definition does not encompass "historical" Dongbei (lost territories to Russia).
B) Again, you seem to be missing my point here. I myself, am a native Dongbei Ren (Northeastern Chinese) and I do have some Manchu ancestry (according to the family Jia Pu). I would certainly not consider the Manchu language as an insult, but the use of "Man Zhou" in place of Dongbei as a geographic entity is a grave insult to us Northeasterners. Keep in mind that a lot of Chinese tend to associate "Man Zhou" with the Japanese puppet regime of "Man Zhou Guo," and this is why this term generally gets a bad rap from us Northeasterners. Not only that, it is historically inaccurate in that it has never existed in official Chinese historiography as a geographic entity. I have repeated this several times, I recommend that you RE-READ this over again in case you misquote me again.
C) No, they are not considered "Northwesterners" or "Southwesterners" because the region of Xinjiang and Xizang (Tibet) are well-defined geographic entities in Chinese historigraphy. As well, unlike "Dongbei," there is no such thing as "Xibei Ren" or "Xinan Ren."
Modern Dongbei does not include the lost territories to Russia, however historic Dongbei does - refer to the
Outer Manchuria article (note that the Chinese name for it is Wai Dongbei - or Outer Dongbei). If you scroll back up, the Encarta encyclopedia I referred to also use Dongbei in place of Manchuria because both terms are used interchangeably (only that Dongbei is more within a historical context).
I have explained this many times before and my actions regarding this issue are all done in good faith and in accordance with the NPOV policies of Wikipedia. Please do not accuse me of anything that I am not guilty of. Thanks. Assault11 00:17, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Does Goguryo even occupy the entire Manchuria? From the map I see it only occupy parts of Inner Manchuria, which is today Northeastern China. It is therefore more accurate to link Goguryo to only Inner Manchuria/Northeastern China instead of the entire Manchuria. The template should use the title "History of Inner Manchuria/Northeastern China" to better reflect the Goguryo historical extension to present day. I wonder if Russia ever occupy Inner Manchuria. If not then Russia could be taken out to simplfy thing even more.
I am going to change the template title to "History of Northeast China (Previously Inner Manchuria)" with Northeast China and Manchuria link to its respective page. I will also exclude Russia from the template. I am doing this because Goguryo in found only within Northeast China (Previously Inner Manchuria), and Russia is found only in Outer Manchuria.
Now we're back to square one. I have said this many times, and I'll say it again: "Northeast China" is synonymous with the modern geographic concept of "Manchuria" (e.g. reference to popular online encyclopedia Encarta supports this [5]), only that these "lost" territories are part of historic Dongbei (do not confuse with historic and modern Dongbei - and this is why terms such as "Outer Manchuria" are referred to as "Outer Dongbei" in Chinese [6]). On the other hand, there is no Russian term that refers to the region of NE China/Manchuria as a whole, so I see no reason why it should be added. Assault11 03:49, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Dear Assalut11, i would like to thank you for gving that link, i read carefullly, but this article is a little bit biased at several times :
What you just quoted is exactly what Encarta paraphrased. There is nothing POV in the excerpt, you just contradicted yourself. Assault11 21:37, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Northeastern China is defined by the government of the People's Republic of China to include the three northeastern provinces of Heilongjiang, Jilin and Liaoning and, thus, the region is sometimes called the Three Northeastern Provinces (东北三省/東北三省; Dōngběi Sānshěng)[1].
Outer Manchuria (Chinese: 外滿洲), known in China as Outer Northeast [China] (Chinese: 外東北), is the territory ceded by China to Russia in the Treaty of Aigun in 1858 and the Treaty of Peking in 1860. The area comprises the present-day Russian areas of Primorsky Krai, southern Khabarovsk Krai, the Jewish Autonomous Oblast and Amur Oblast. Another interpretation also adds the island of Sakhalin. In contrast to Outer Manchuria, the part of Manchuria that is still part of China is referred to as "Inner Manchuria".
Nothing that you have provided in previous discussions disproves the fact that Dongbei = Manchuria. Disprove by points (by addressing the above questions), and I will accept your proposal. (I'm almost sure that if i were able to disprove them one by one you will maybe find other points, it is a kind of "balkanization" of that talk page, i refuse the challenge you know my point of view as i wrote previously and i will be entrenched on it even though you are not agree). Keep in mind RFE encompasses not just Outer Dongbei or Wai Dongbei in Chinese language, but other areas as well, thus inappropriate. Whereas Dongbei in the Chinese context refer to the entire region of Manchuria (whether it be historic or modern present-day Dongbei - or "Dongsansheng" during the Qing).
Assault11 22:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
This is becoming really tiring now, Whlee. You seem to ignore all the previous points I have made and keep making redundant statements that have already been thoroughly refuted.
So far, you have provided zero explanation on the official uses of the geographic "Man Zhou" in Chinese historiography (not even the Qing called this place "Man Zhou). This area has never been geographically defined until the Japanese puppet regime of Manchukuo. In contrast, I have provided several explanations on the uses of Northeast China (Dongbei Sansheng), ever since the Qing Dynasty. I have provided sources explaining that Dongbei is synonymous with the term "Manchuria" [10] and that Dongbei also encompasses the lost territories to Russia as a result of the Unequal Treaties [11]. Assault11 21:37, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
It starts voluntarily at 300 BC with the extension of Yan Kingdom in Liaoning thanks to general Qin Kai under King Zhao (311 BC-279 BC) and at the same time the creation of Mukden/Shenyang.
We have to keep that in mind that this timetable's aims consist in being a mediated outcome and have to reduce as much as possible nationalistic point of view without forgetting the autochtones inhabitants of that region.
Having not found any compromise with the definition of Manchuria, I accept to follow 208.106.25.153 's idea in creating/renaming the template into northeast China but on ONE condition deleting Manchuria for two reasons :
On the others cases (leaving Manchuria close to Northeast China on the title as a headline) i would be strongly entrenched on my positions because i would never accept Paleosiberians and Tungusic peoples as being assimilated as "Northeasteners" because of belonging to historic "Dongbei" or "Outer Dongebi" : Nivkhs, Ulchs, Negidals, Evenks, Nanais, Orochs and Udeghe. Otherwise it can be considered as an offense to people philologists and scholars (linguist, Manchurist) interested in everything related to Manchu peoples by spending time and energy on it... Whlee 08:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
This template webpage name is History of Manchuria. It is also used in Manchuria. To avoid conflict I have create a new History of Northeast China template. I will remove History of Manchuria template from Goguryo page and add the new History of Northeast China template. Whlee you are welcome to edit this template you see fit to address "Manchuria" history.
Whlee, I have no idea what you're talking about. Please explain more clearly so I know what you're trying to get across. Also, Manchus are Chinese. If you want to create a History of the Russian Far East or History of Siberia template, then by all means, feel free to do so. But whatever the case is, I will certainly not accept anything that would compromise Dongbei.
Also, there is absolutely NO need for a "History of Manchuria" and a "History of Northeast China" template because they refer to the same thing (refer to above sources). Whoever created it, please have it deleted. Assault11 22:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
What? A History of Northeast China in place of a HoM template is what I am trying to convey here. How are you disagreeing with me? Assault11 22:16, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Northeast China and Manchuria are not EXACTLY the same thing. I created "History of Northeast China" template to differentiate the two, and thus allowing flexibility in meeting peoples different need : 1. "History of Manchuria" template allows people to pursue the history of Manchuria = Northeast China/Inner Manchuria/Dongbei + Outer Manchuria/Russian Maritime. 2. "History of Northeast China" template allows people to pursue the regional history of the northeastern provinces of China. Wiki pokemon 00:07, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Ridiculous. Are you going to change Myanmar back to Burma for the same reason then? Assault11 21:37, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Whlee, I am deeply insulted. If you consider Manchus as separate from "Chinese," that is strictly your POV. As far as the modern construct of "Chinese" is concerned [17] [18], Manchus are Chinese. The definition of "Chinese" is not limited to the Han ethnicity. In fact, the creation of the "Manchu" ethnicity (Huang Taiji) itself is composed of not just Nu Zhen tribes, but also ethnic Han and Mongols in the Northeast region as well. Again, as far as NPOV is concerned, Manchu is a Chinese entity, period. Assault11 21:37, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Present day Manchus in China are Chinese, quite universally accepted. Assault11 is right, most all sources I come across define Manchuria = Northeast China/Dongbei. The old Manchuria = the old Northeast China/Dongbei = 3 NE province + RFE. Current Manchuria = Current Northeast China/Dongbei = just 3 NE province, no RFE. So if this template wants to include RFE the title should be "History of Historic Manchuria/Northeast China" or "History of Manchuria/Northeast China + History of RFE". If does not include RFE then the title should be "History of Manchuria/Northeast China". Given the negative feeling of many people about the word Manchuria, plus Manchuria being a word falling out of favor in todays world, plus Assault11 explanation about the dubious origin of the word Manchuria, I would support using Norhteast China instead of Manchuria in the title. Wiki pokemon
This page is on the template of History of Manchuria, not that of Northeast China or any modern political entities. Take your issues to template: History of Northeast China and leave this template be what it is supposed to be. Also, the consensus on Goguryeo was for a History of Manchuria template, not Northeast China. Cydevil38 00:23, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Manchuria is a more recent concept than Northeast China. As explained countless times above, Northeast China = Manchuria, only that NE China is a more "legitimate" definition. The other template is currently not in use and refers to the same thing. The so-called "consensus" was based on a survey, but according to the official policies of Wikipedia [19] on resolving disputes (under conduct a survey), a survey cannot generate consensus, but is helpful for understanding it. Technically, it does not qualify to be a consensus, but I have made it clear that "I will go along with the decision for now," on the condition that the title of the template is to be addressed. Not only that, this template is not limited to the Gaogouli article. Assault11 01:05, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
As the above thread indicates, there is clearly no consensus to retitle the template, and the edit warring on this is not acceptable. Please continue the discussion. -- Nlu ( talk) 01:02, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
What is a consensus on wiki? If people are editing and reverting then there is no consensus. A consensus has been reached only when everybody is satisfied and stop editing and reverting. This topic is hard to reach a consensus, discussion would be helpful. I would advice editors to edit in a respectful, open minded, reasonable and accurate way. Wiki pokemon 07:19, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Sharp Electronic Dictionary PW-E550, New Oxford American Dictionary
[22] Merriam-Webster Dictionary
[23] Encarta Dictionary
[24] American Heritage Dictionary
[25] Collins Dictionary
[26] Answer.com
[27] Columbia Encyclopedia
[28] Britannica Encyclopedia
[29] Worldbook Encyclopedia
[30] UK Encarta Encyclopedia
[31] Catholic Encyclopedia
[32] Encyclopedia of Modern Asia
[33] AncientWorld.net
[34] Nuttall Encyclopedia
Below is the summary of the descriptions of Manchuria from the references above:
Wiki pokemon 06:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
The information above provides the rationale if not the legitimacy and mandate for the use of the word "Northeast China" versus "Manchuria". "Northeast China" is a natural choice because it is more up-to-date, use more often, less offensive and causes less confusion. "Manchuria" on the other hand causes lots of confusion because people use it in a variety of subjective, vague, conflicting and sometimes sinister concepts. These concepts include: 1)territory covering just northeast China versus also including Russian Maritime, 2)homeland legitimate only for the Manchu versus also for multi ethnic population, 3)a historical geographic only name versus a permanent, unchanging and timeless one like one would use the word "Mariana Trench" for example and last but not least, 4)it is used in a sinister manner [35] to stealthily suggest the region's separateness from Northeast China or to avoid using the word Northeast China altogether. I therefore vote and urge others to do the same to use the better word "Northeast China" to better inform readers on Wikipedia. Wiki pokemon 17:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Since when did you people respect NPOV sources?
Please keep discussion of "Northeast China" and "Manchuria" within this section. It should continue above. And other discussion please use another section. Thanks. Wiki Pokemon 22:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
And so what if it is a "historical name" What does that have to do with anything? If its historical, then we can't use it? Good friend100 00:38, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Manchuria was a name used in late 19th century and early 20th century. It typically refers to the puppet state supported by Japan militarists. It doesn't make sense to use this modern name to describe historical events occurred a thousand years ago. It also doesn't make sense because, at most dynasties listed in this template, Manchu was actually in its ancestral forms of Sushen, Wuji, Mohe and Jurchen. This template is really about the lands conquered by the Sushen-Wuji-Mohe-Jurchen-Manchu line, not about the Manchuria which doesn't exist at that time.-- Jiejunkong 03:41, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
This template is about the entire chronological history of the lands conquered by the Sushen-Wuji-Mohe-Jurchen-Manchu line, plus closely related people that came before and after them on that lands, from ancient time to modern 2007. It is not just about Sushen-Wuji-Mohe-Jurchen-Manchu, it about from ancient tribes to todays Northeast China, and Northern Korea(which had their own history template already) and Russia Maritime. Wiki Pokemon 18:26, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Can this template be unprotected now? Any reason to still keeping it protected? Wiki Pokemon 19:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
In fact Donghu is the one of the aborigines in Manchuria.-- Ksyrie 07:44, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Cydevil38 has made a bold and reckless move which resulted in a meaningless revert war. And what did he accomplish? A title which is only half the accuracy of the previous title. I hope he will change it back, but is it up to him. Anyway I think we need a new approach. Some editors here vehemently do not accept the strictly wikipedia rules formula only. I am flexible to accomodate a little rule bending to reach consensus. But
Cydevil38 needs to be flexible too and not ask for too much rule bending. I will think about it and get back.
Wiki Pokemon 18:47, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
There is another similar case in en.wikipedia. " History of Beijing", rather than "History of Beiping", must be the title. It is important to note that the name "Beiping" was changed to "Beijing" at year 1949, roughly the same time (or even later) when the name "Manchuria" (the China part, not including the "Outer Manchuria" in Russia) was changed to "Northeast China". I consider this case as a clear discrimination against Northeast Chinese, because Beijing Chinese can use their modern name in all geographic contexts, but Northeastern Chinese cannot. In terms of Manchu, many upper-class Beijing Chinese are Manchu. The ratio of Manchu population is nearly the same when we compare Beijing and Northeast China. Then why we have a fierce disputation on Northeast China, but not on Beijing??? Okay, time to expose some users' hidden agenda.-- Jiejunkong 22:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
For other concerned editors, this is the link to the original text based on which Jiejunkong is accusing me of being a liar. As for the inaccuracy of my google search(or rather, inconsistency within the google search engine itself), I have explained myself here. Please look at those links and decide for yourselves. Thank you. Cydevil38 00:37, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Assault11 06:54, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Tingjie CAO ( 1850-- 1926) was an officer and author in Manchu Qing Dynasty. He published "Brief of the Border Defense in Northeast China" ( zh:東北邊防輯要, original texts in s:zh:東北邊防輯要) in year 1885. This shows that Northeast China was already a well-known concept in 1885.(Otherwise, if the concept was not well-known at that time, the author would know that his book title does not make sense to the audience.)-- Jiejunkong 20:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
This is the technical(note: User:Mr. Killigan complained he is confused by the word "technical". I am sorry I didn't make it clear that "technical" means presenting Wikipedia:Reliable sources and Verifiable proofs in the arguments, and provide such proofs upon other user's requests for any presented contents. "Technical" basically means "nothing personal".-- Jiejunkong 20:33, 15 July 2007 (UTC)) reply to User:Mr. Killigan's claim that "Manchuria" is not an offensive term to him:
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
As noted below, I am not insisting on this list or even this definition, but let me explain the list inclusion criteria, as far as I am concerned (and the inclusion critiera may very well include other articles that I didn't think of; I considered including Wuhuan but decided not do, because I don't think there's sufficient evidence that the Wuhuan controlled substantial parts, if any, of modern Manchuria. My inclusion criteria are:
(Again, Wuhuan was my basic "close, but not quite" drawn line; Rouran may fall into the same category.) -- Nlu ( talk) 15:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I think Gija Joseon and Wiman Joseon should be left out, as the term "Gojoseon" encompasses them both. And you have also included ethnicties, not just states. That may complicate things a bit. Cydevil 09:19, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
History of Manchuria is very rich but also complicated to better understand its history i suggest to divide that region in six sectors have a look at map 1 map 2 and map 3 :
Conclusion :
I think this is a good starting point for an eventual article. For a template, this is too complex. -- Nlu ( talk) 12:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
There are still some mistakes in my "article/template" but i will try to improve it later
Regardless of its origin, the word "Manchuria" was already established in the English language by the early 20th century before the "puppet regime". See:
And the current English dictionaries still list "Manchuria". See:
"Manchuria" was a name given by the Europeans, and there seems to be no alternative name for it in English except a descriptive one such as "a region in northeast China". "Dongbei" is not listed in the English dictionaries.-- Endroit 16:53, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
What is Nan Zhao? I have never heard of that having a connection to Goguryeo. Goguryeo was a completely independent kingdom during the three kingdoms period. Good friend100 03:37, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't see any sources. Good friend100 01:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
A destroyed Korean kingdom that is assimilated into China doesn't mean that the Korean kingdom is automatically part of China. Good friend100 19:48, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
With this in mind, I will be reverting the template again, if you have any further questions, please talk first. Assault11 13:55, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Whlee, it was a request - not a warning. I have done nothing wrong. And regarding your questions:
A) Yes, they are "Dongbei Ren" (or Northeasterners) as along as they are born within modern Northeast China - regardless of ethnicity, however this definition does not encompass "historical" Dongbei (lost territories to Russia).
B) Again, you seem to be missing my point here. I myself, am a native Dongbei Ren (Northeastern Chinese) and I do have some Manchu ancestry (according to the family Jia Pu). I would certainly not consider the Manchu language as an insult, but the use of "Man Zhou" in place of Dongbei as a geographic entity is a grave insult to us Northeasterners. Keep in mind that a lot of Chinese tend to associate "Man Zhou" with the Japanese puppet regime of "Man Zhou Guo," and this is why this term generally gets a bad rap from us Northeasterners. Not only that, it is historically inaccurate in that it has never existed in official Chinese historiography as a geographic entity. I have repeated this several times, I recommend that you RE-READ this over again in case you misquote me again.
C) No, they are not considered "Northwesterners" or "Southwesterners" because the region of Xinjiang and Xizang (Tibet) are well-defined geographic entities in Chinese historigraphy. As well, unlike "Dongbei," there is no such thing as "Xibei Ren" or "Xinan Ren."
Modern Dongbei does not include the lost territories to Russia, however historic Dongbei does - refer to the
Outer Manchuria article (note that the Chinese name for it is Wai Dongbei - or Outer Dongbei). If you scroll back up, the Encarta encyclopedia I referred to also use Dongbei in place of Manchuria because both terms are used interchangeably (only that Dongbei is more within a historical context).
I have explained this many times before and my actions regarding this issue are all done in good faith and in accordance with the NPOV policies of Wikipedia. Please do not accuse me of anything that I am not guilty of. Thanks. Assault11 00:17, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Does Goguryo even occupy the entire Manchuria? From the map I see it only occupy parts of Inner Manchuria, which is today Northeastern China. It is therefore more accurate to link Goguryo to only Inner Manchuria/Northeastern China instead of the entire Manchuria. The template should use the title "History of Inner Manchuria/Northeastern China" to better reflect the Goguryo historical extension to present day. I wonder if Russia ever occupy Inner Manchuria. If not then Russia could be taken out to simplfy thing even more.
I am going to change the template title to "History of Northeast China (Previously Inner Manchuria)" with Northeast China and Manchuria link to its respective page. I will also exclude Russia from the template. I am doing this because Goguryo in found only within Northeast China (Previously Inner Manchuria), and Russia is found only in Outer Manchuria.
Now we're back to square one. I have said this many times, and I'll say it again: "Northeast China" is synonymous with the modern geographic concept of "Manchuria" (e.g. reference to popular online encyclopedia Encarta supports this [5]), only that these "lost" territories are part of historic Dongbei (do not confuse with historic and modern Dongbei - and this is why terms such as "Outer Manchuria" are referred to as "Outer Dongbei" in Chinese [6]). On the other hand, there is no Russian term that refers to the region of NE China/Manchuria as a whole, so I see no reason why it should be added. Assault11 03:49, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Dear Assalut11, i would like to thank you for gving that link, i read carefullly, but this article is a little bit biased at several times :
What you just quoted is exactly what Encarta paraphrased. There is nothing POV in the excerpt, you just contradicted yourself. Assault11 21:37, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Northeastern China is defined by the government of the People's Republic of China to include the three northeastern provinces of Heilongjiang, Jilin and Liaoning and, thus, the region is sometimes called the Three Northeastern Provinces (东北三省/東北三省; Dōngběi Sānshěng)[1].
Outer Manchuria (Chinese: 外滿洲), known in China as Outer Northeast [China] (Chinese: 外東北), is the territory ceded by China to Russia in the Treaty of Aigun in 1858 and the Treaty of Peking in 1860. The area comprises the present-day Russian areas of Primorsky Krai, southern Khabarovsk Krai, the Jewish Autonomous Oblast and Amur Oblast. Another interpretation also adds the island of Sakhalin. In contrast to Outer Manchuria, the part of Manchuria that is still part of China is referred to as "Inner Manchuria".
Nothing that you have provided in previous discussions disproves the fact that Dongbei = Manchuria. Disprove by points (by addressing the above questions), and I will accept your proposal. (I'm almost sure that if i were able to disprove them one by one you will maybe find other points, it is a kind of "balkanization" of that talk page, i refuse the challenge you know my point of view as i wrote previously and i will be entrenched on it even though you are not agree). Keep in mind RFE encompasses not just Outer Dongbei or Wai Dongbei in Chinese language, but other areas as well, thus inappropriate. Whereas Dongbei in the Chinese context refer to the entire region of Manchuria (whether it be historic or modern present-day Dongbei - or "Dongsansheng" during the Qing).
Assault11 22:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
This is becoming really tiring now, Whlee. You seem to ignore all the previous points I have made and keep making redundant statements that have already been thoroughly refuted.
So far, you have provided zero explanation on the official uses of the geographic "Man Zhou" in Chinese historiography (not even the Qing called this place "Man Zhou). This area has never been geographically defined until the Japanese puppet regime of Manchukuo. In contrast, I have provided several explanations on the uses of Northeast China (Dongbei Sansheng), ever since the Qing Dynasty. I have provided sources explaining that Dongbei is synonymous with the term "Manchuria" [10] and that Dongbei also encompasses the lost territories to Russia as a result of the Unequal Treaties [11]. Assault11 21:37, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
It starts voluntarily at 300 BC with the extension of Yan Kingdom in Liaoning thanks to general Qin Kai under King Zhao (311 BC-279 BC) and at the same time the creation of Mukden/Shenyang.
We have to keep that in mind that this timetable's aims consist in being a mediated outcome and have to reduce as much as possible nationalistic point of view without forgetting the autochtones inhabitants of that region.
Having not found any compromise with the definition of Manchuria, I accept to follow 208.106.25.153 's idea in creating/renaming the template into northeast China but on ONE condition deleting Manchuria for two reasons :
On the others cases (leaving Manchuria close to Northeast China on the title as a headline) i would be strongly entrenched on my positions because i would never accept Paleosiberians and Tungusic peoples as being assimilated as "Northeasteners" because of belonging to historic "Dongbei" or "Outer Dongebi" : Nivkhs, Ulchs, Negidals, Evenks, Nanais, Orochs and Udeghe. Otherwise it can be considered as an offense to people philologists and scholars (linguist, Manchurist) interested in everything related to Manchu peoples by spending time and energy on it... Whlee 08:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
This template webpage name is History of Manchuria. It is also used in Manchuria. To avoid conflict I have create a new History of Northeast China template. I will remove History of Manchuria template from Goguryo page and add the new History of Northeast China template. Whlee you are welcome to edit this template you see fit to address "Manchuria" history.
Whlee, I have no idea what you're talking about. Please explain more clearly so I know what you're trying to get across. Also, Manchus are Chinese. If you want to create a History of the Russian Far East or History of Siberia template, then by all means, feel free to do so. But whatever the case is, I will certainly not accept anything that would compromise Dongbei.
Also, there is absolutely NO need for a "History of Manchuria" and a "History of Northeast China" template because they refer to the same thing (refer to above sources). Whoever created it, please have it deleted. Assault11 22:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
What? A History of Northeast China in place of a HoM template is what I am trying to convey here. How are you disagreeing with me? Assault11 22:16, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Northeast China and Manchuria are not EXACTLY the same thing. I created "History of Northeast China" template to differentiate the two, and thus allowing flexibility in meeting peoples different need : 1. "History of Manchuria" template allows people to pursue the history of Manchuria = Northeast China/Inner Manchuria/Dongbei + Outer Manchuria/Russian Maritime. 2. "History of Northeast China" template allows people to pursue the regional history of the northeastern provinces of China. Wiki pokemon 00:07, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Ridiculous. Are you going to change Myanmar back to Burma for the same reason then? Assault11 21:37, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Whlee, I am deeply insulted. If you consider Manchus as separate from "Chinese," that is strictly your POV. As far as the modern construct of "Chinese" is concerned [17] [18], Manchus are Chinese. The definition of "Chinese" is not limited to the Han ethnicity. In fact, the creation of the "Manchu" ethnicity (Huang Taiji) itself is composed of not just Nu Zhen tribes, but also ethnic Han and Mongols in the Northeast region as well. Again, as far as NPOV is concerned, Manchu is a Chinese entity, period. Assault11 21:37, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Present day Manchus in China are Chinese, quite universally accepted. Assault11 is right, most all sources I come across define Manchuria = Northeast China/Dongbei. The old Manchuria = the old Northeast China/Dongbei = 3 NE province + RFE. Current Manchuria = Current Northeast China/Dongbei = just 3 NE province, no RFE. So if this template wants to include RFE the title should be "History of Historic Manchuria/Northeast China" or "History of Manchuria/Northeast China + History of RFE". If does not include RFE then the title should be "History of Manchuria/Northeast China". Given the negative feeling of many people about the word Manchuria, plus Manchuria being a word falling out of favor in todays world, plus Assault11 explanation about the dubious origin of the word Manchuria, I would support using Norhteast China instead of Manchuria in the title. Wiki pokemon
This page is on the template of History of Manchuria, not that of Northeast China or any modern political entities. Take your issues to template: History of Northeast China and leave this template be what it is supposed to be. Also, the consensus on Goguryeo was for a History of Manchuria template, not Northeast China. Cydevil38 00:23, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Manchuria is a more recent concept than Northeast China. As explained countless times above, Northeast China = Manchuria, only that NE China is a more "legitimate" definition. The other template is currently not in use and refers to the same thing. The so-called "consensus" was based on a survey, but according to the official policies of Wikipedia [19] on resolving disputes (under conduct a survey), a survey cannot generate consensus, but is helpful for understanding it. Technically, it does not qualify to be a consensus, but I have made it clear that "I will go along with the decision for now," on the condition that the title of the template is to be addressed. Not only that, this template is not limited to the Gaogouli article. Assault11 01:05, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
As the above thread indicates, there is clearly no consensus to retitle the template, and the edit warring on this is not acceptable. Please continue the discussion. -- Nlu ( talk) 01:02, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
What is a consensus on wiki? If people are editing and reverting then there is no consensus. A consensus has been reached only when everybody is satisfied and stop editing and reverting. This topic is hard to reach a consensus, discussion would be helpful. I would advice editors to edit in a respectful, open minded, reasonable and accurate way. Wiki pokemon 07:19, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Sharp Electronic Dictionary PW-E550, New Oxford American Dictionary
[22] Merriam-Webster Dictionary
[23] Encarta Dictionary
[24] American Heritage Dictionary
[25] Collins Dictionary
[26] Answer.com
[27] Columbia Encyclopedia
[28] Britannica Encyclopedia
[29] Worldbook Encyclopedia
[30] UK Encarta Encyclopedia
[31] Catholic Encyclopedia
[32] Encyclopedia of Modern Asia
[33] AncientWorld.net
[34] Nuttall Encyclopedia
Below is the summary of the descriptions of Manchuria from the references above:
Wiki pokemon 06:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
The information above provides the rationale if not the legitimacy and mandate for the use of the word "Northeast China" versus "Manchuria". "Northeast China" is a natural choice because it is more up-to-date, use more often, less offensive and causes less confusion. "Manchuria" on the other hand causes lots of confusion because people use it in a variety of subjective, vague, conflicting and sometimes sinister concepts. These concepts include: 1)territory covering just northeast China versus also including Russian Maritime, 2)homeland legitimate only for the Manchu versus also for multi ethnic population, 3)a historical geographic only name versus a permanent, unchanging and timeless one like one would use the word "Mariana Trench" for example and last but not least, 4)it is used in a sinister manner [35] to stealthily suggest the region's separateness from Northeast China or to avoid using the word Northeast China altogether. I therefore vote and urge others to do the same to use the better word "Northeast China" to better inform readers on Wikipedia. Wiki pokemon 17:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Since when did you people respect NPOV sources?
Please keep discussion of "Northeast China" and "Manchuria" within this section. It should continue above. And other discussion please use another section. Thanks. Wiki Pokemon 22:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
And so what if it is a "historical name" What does that have to do with anything? If its historical, then we can't use it? Good friend100 00:38, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Manchuria was a name used in late 19th century and early 20th century. It typically refers to the puppet state supported by Japan militarists. It doesn't make sense to use this modern name to describe historical events occurred a thousand years ago. It also doesn't make sense because, at most dynasties listed in this template, Manchu was actually in its ancestral forms of Sushen, Wuji, Mohe and Jurchen. This template is really about the lands conquered by the Sushen-Wuji-Mohe-Jurchen-Manchu line, not about the Manchuria which doesn't exist at that time.-- Jiejunkong 03:41, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
This template is about the entire chronological history of the lands conquered by the Sushen-Wuji-Mohe-Jurchen-Manchu line, plus closely related people that came before and after them on that lands, from ancient time to modern 2007. It is not just about Sushen-Wuji-Mohe-Jurchen-Manchu, it about from ancient tribes to todays Northeast China, and Northern Korea(which had their own history template already) and Russia Maritime. Wiki Pokemon 18:26, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Can this template be unprotected now? Any reason to still keeping it protected? Wiki Pokemon 19:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
In fact Donghu is the one of the aborigines in Manchuria.-- Ksyrie 07:44, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Cydevil38 has made a bold and reckless move which resulted in a meaningless revert war. And what did he accomplish? A title which is only half the accuracy of the previous title. I hope he will change it back, but is it up to him. Anyway I think we need a new approach. Some editors here vehemently do not accept the strictly wikipedia rules formula only. I am flexible to accomodate a little rule bending to reach consensus. But
Cydevil38 needs to be flexible too and not ask for too much rule bending. I will think about it and get back.
Wiki Pokemon 18:47, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
There is another similar case in en.wikipedia. " History of Beijing", rather than "History of Beiping", must be the title. It is important to note that the name "Beiping" was changed to "Beijing" at year 1949, roughly the same time (or even later) when the name "Manchuria" (the China part, not including the "Outer Manchuria" in Russia) was changed to "Northeast China". I consider this case as a clear discrimination against Northeast Chinese, because Beijing Chinese can use their modern name in all geographic contexts, but Northeastern Chinese cannot. In terms of Manchu, many upper-class Beijing Chinese are Manchu. The ratio of Manchu population is nearly the same when we compare Beijing and Northeast China. Then why we have a fierce disputation on Northeast China, but not on Beijing??? Okay, time to expose some users' hidden agenda.-- Jiejunkong 22:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
For other concerned editors, this is the link to the original text based on which Jiejunkong is accusing me of being a liar. As for the inaccuracy of my google search(or rather, inconsistency within the google search engine itself), I have explained myself here. Please look at those links and decide for yourselves. Thank you. Cydevil38 00:37, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Assault11 06:54, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Tingjie CAO ( 1850-- 1926) was an officer and author in Manchu Qing Dynasty. He published "Brief of the Border Defense in Northeast China" ( zh:東北邊防輯要, original texts in s:zh:東北邊防輯要) in year 1885. This shows that Northeast China was already a well-known concept in 1885.(Otherwise, if the concept was not well-known at that time, the author would know that his book title does not make sense to the audience.)-- Jiejunkong 20:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
This is the technical(note: User:Mr. Killigan complained he is confused by the word "technical". I am sorry I didn't make it clear that "technical" means presenting Wikipedia:Reliable sources and Verifiable proofs in the arguments, and provide such proofs upon other user's requests for any presented contents. "Technical" basically means "nothing personal".-- Jiejunkong 20:33, 15 July 2007 (UTC)) reply to User:Mr. Killigan's claim that "Manchuria" is not an offensive term to him: