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Wouldn't it be better to rename this template so that it matches Template:Serbs and Template:Albanians?-- Domitius 00:00, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
In line with its traditional Western orientation, relations with Europe have always been a central part of Turkish foreign policy. Turkey became a founding member of the Council of Europe in 1949, applied for associate membership of the EEC (predecessor of the European Union) in 1959 and became an associate member in 1963. After decades of political negotiations, Turkey applied for full membership of the EEC in 1987, became an associate member of the Western European Union in 1992, reached a Customs Union agreement with the EU in 1995 and has officially begun formal accession negotiations with the EU on October 3 2005. Turkey is also a member of Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, Western European Union(Associate member), UEFA, European Olympic Committees(and all other sports organizations in Europe), European Broadcasting Union and the all other European organizations. Istanbul, Turkey's largest city, financial, cultural and historical capital is in Europe and it is Europe's largest city too. The city was chosen as European Capital of Culture for 2010 not as Asian Capital of Culture.
You can see Turkey in Europe not in Asia or Middle East in the BBC's website.
I think these examples are enough. Aegean Boy ( talk) 12:46, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Turkey is both in Europe and in Asia (Islamic Middle East), presenting caractheristics of both. Given that only about 3% of its territory is in Europe it should be listed in the Asia category. The mere statement and parade of maps is not an argument for Turkey's straight categorization as European. User Aegean Boy seems, given the political positions stated in his user page, to be completely incapable of understanding, of even accepting, this dual nature of Turkey and the fact that most of the country is in Asia (as well as the fact that a great part of its culture is linked not to Europe but to the Middle East). It's strange to see someone (a Turk) refusing a significant part of his culture and identity. And it does remind one of a permanentely banned editor, User:Izmir lee, known for his sockpuppets. Aegean Boy, are you Izmir lee? The Ogre ( talk) 14:29, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
We are talking about the Greek diaspora here. In this context, there is no such thing as "Eurasia", and the experiences of Greeks living in what is now Turkey are fundamentally different form those of western Europe. The Greeks diaspora in western Europe arose after the Ottoman conquest, when many Greeks migrated to the West to avoid persecution and for economic reasons. This continued up until the mid-20th century. By contrast, the Greeks of Anatolia (Turkey) were there before the Ottoman conquest. There was no migration to Anatolia from Greece, and their experience has been markedly different. They were subject to pogroms and persecution which the Greek in the western European diaspora were not. Rather than migrating to Turkey in the 20th century for economic reasons, they were sent to Greece as part of a population exchange agreement. Thus, their experience and history are the complete opposite of the Greeks in Western Europe. Their culture is also more influenced by Middle Eastern cultures, especially in terms of mentality, art, cuisine. Thus, to include the Greeks of Anatolia with the Greek diaspora in the West makes absolutely no sense. We are not going to go ahead with such nonsense in this article in order to appease the "wannabe European" complex of some people. -- Tsourkpk ( talk) 18:30, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
The whole discussion seems to have more to do with List of countries spanning more than one continent than this particular template. Turkey is both European and Asian by definition, the country should appear in templates dealing with both continents. The Ottoman Empire held territories in Asia, Europe and Africa and should probably belong to the historical background of all three continents. I basically agree with Aegean Boy here. By the way a minor correction, the Ottomans did not start their expansion in Europe under Mehmed II. Edirne was their capital since 1365. (I am also Greek but just try to read Balkan history since the 14th century while excluding the Ottomans and their influence. It is an impossibility. The same goes for a European definition that excludes Turkish and/or Islamic populations.) Dimadick ( talk) 05:41, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I propose this new version. The Ogre ( talk) 16:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Good points, The Ogre. What's really important here is context. For example, in the context of sports, Turkey should be listed as European because its teams participate in European tournaments, both at the club and national level. That is what the relevant sporting bodies, and Wikipedia should follow that. However, the picture is totally different in the context of the Greek Diaspora. The origins, history, and experience of the Greek diaspora in Western Europe is vastly different from that of the Greeks of Anatolia (Turkey). Analytically:
The Greek communities in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union have also had a very different experience. While some communities have ancient roots, such as the Pontic Greeks, others are post-WW2 arrivals who fled Greece after the defeat of communist forces in the Greek civil war. The Greeks of the former Soviet bloc shared together the experience of Soviet rule, including deportations, and in some instances have been heavily influenced by Russian and other Soviet bloc cultures. For this reason, they constitute yet another distinct diasporic group. As for Africa, there are again two main groups: There are the Greeks of Egypt, largely descended from Greeks of Turkey who fled to Egypt to escape persecution in Turkish lands following the Greek War of Independence, and the Greeks of Sub-Saharan Africa, who migrated there in search of economic opportunities during the days of the British Empire in Africa. These two groups are distinct from each other.
I thus propose the following grouping, based on similarities among communities, rather than the traditional seven continents:
Let me know what you think of this proposed scheme. -- Tsourkpk ( talk) 02:59, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Greek diaspora is a term used to refer to the communities of Greek people living outside of the traditional Greek homelands in southeast Europe and Asia Minor. Members of the diaspora can be identified as those who themselves, or whose ancestors, migrated from the Greek homelands.
How about this? The Ogre ( talk) 16:04, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
This one should avoid any POV Jkliajmi ( talk) 13:13, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Tsourkpk. Besides, Greater Europe is a contentious and less known concept. The Ogre ( talk) 02:00, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
After all the above discutions, I've asked the admin who protected the template to unprotect it in order to upload the version below. Thanks. The Ogre ( talk) 13:11, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Greece Template‑class | |||||||
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Wouldn't it be better to rename this template so that it matches Template:Serbs and Template:Albanians?-- Domitius 00:00, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
In line with its traditional Western orientation, relations with Europe have always been a central part of Turkish foreign policy. Turkey became a founding member of the Council of Europe in 1949, applied for associate membership of the EEC (predecessor of the European Union) in 1959 and became an associate member in 1963. After decades of political negotiations, Turkey applied for full membership of the EEC in 1987, became an associate member of the Western European Union in 1992, reached a Customs Union agreement with the EU in 1995 and has officially begun formal accession negotiations with the EU on October 3 2005. Turkey is also a member of Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, Western European Union(Associate member), UEFA, European Olympic Committees(and all other sports organizations in Europe), European Broadcasting Union and the all other European organizations. Istanbul, Turkey's largest city, financial, cultural and historical capital is in Europe and it is Europe's largest city too. The city was chosen as European Capital of Culture for 2010 not as Asian Capital of Culture.
You can see Turkey in Europe not in Asia or Middle East in the BBC's website.
I think these examples are enough. Aegean Boy ( talk) 12:46, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Turkey is both in Europe and in Asia (Islamic Middle East), presenting caractheristics of both. Given that only about 3% of its territory is in Europe it should be listed in the Asia category. The mere statement and parade of maps is not an argument for Turkey's straight categorization as European. User Aegean Boy seems, given the political positions stated in his user page, to be completely incapable of understanding, of even accepting, this dual nature of Turkey and the fact that most of the country is in Asia (as well as the fact that a great part of its culture is linked not to Europe but to the Middle East). It's strange to see someone (a Turk) refusing a significant part of his culture and identity. And it does remind one of a permanentely banned editor, User:Izmir lee, known for his sockpuppets. Aegean Boy, are you Izmir lee? The Ogre ( talk) 14:29, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
We are talking about the Greek diaspora here. In this context, there is no such thing as "Eurasia", and the experiences of Greeks living in what is now Turkey are fundamentally different form those of western Europe. The Greeks diaspora in western Europe arose after the Ottoman conquest, when many Greeks migrated to the West to avoid persecution and for economic reasons. This continued up until the mid-20th century. By contrast, the Greeks of Anatolia (Turkey) were there before the Ottoman conquest. There was no migration to Anatolia from Greece, and their experience has been markedly different. They were subject to pogroms and persecution which the Greek in the western European diaspora were not. Rather than migrating to Turkey in the 20th century for economic reasons, they were sent to Greece as part of a population exchange agreement. Thus, their experience and history are the complete opposite of the Greeks in Western Europe. Their culture is also more influenced by Middle Eastern cultures, especially in terms of mentality, art, cuisine. Thus, to include the Greeks of Anatolia with the Greek diaspora in the West makes absolutely no sense. We are not going to go ahead with such nonsense in this article in order to appease the "wannabe European" complex of some people. -- Tsourkpk ( talk) 18:30, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
The whole discussion seems to have more to do with List of countries spanning more than one continent than this particular template. Turkey is both European and Asian by definition, the country should appear in templates dealing with both continents. The Ottoman Empire held territories in Asia, Europe and Africa and should probably belong to the historical background of all three continents. I basically agree with Aegean Boy here. By the way a minor correction, the Ottomans did not start their expansion in Europe under Mehmed II. Edirne was their capital since 1365. (I am also Greek but just try to read Balkan history since the 14th century while excluding the Ottomans and their influence. It is an impossibility. The same goes for a European definition that excludes Turkish and/or Islamic populations.) Dimadick ( talk) 05:41, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I propose this new version. The Ogre ( talk) 16:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Good points, The Ogre. What's really important here is context. For example, in the context of sports, Turkey should be listed as European because its teams participate in European tournaments, both at the club and national level. That is what the relevant sporting bodies, and Wikipedia should follow that. However, the picture is totally different in the context of the Greek Diaspora. The origins, history, and experience of the Greek diaspora in Western Europe is vastly different from that of the Greeks of Anatolia (Turkey). Analytically:
The Greek communities in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union have also had a very different experience. While some communities have ancient roots, such as the Pontic Greeks, others are post-WW2 arrivals who fled Greece after the defeat of communist forces in the Greek civil war. The Greeks of the former Soviet bloc shared together the experience of Soviet rule, including deportations, and in some instances have been heavily influenced by Russian and other Soviet bloc cultures. For this reason, they constitute yet another distinct diasporic group. As for Africa, there are again two main groups: There are the Greeks of Egypt, largely descended from Greeks of Turkey who fled to Egypt to escape persecution in Turkish lands following the Greek War of Independence, and the Greeks of Sub-Saharan Africa, who migrated there in search of economic opportunities during the days of the British Empire in Africa. These two groups are distinct from each other.
I thus propose the following grouping, based on similarities among communities, rather than the traditional seven continents:
Let me know what you think of this proposed scheme. -- Tsourkpk ( talk) 02:59, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Greek diaspora is a term used to refer to the communities of Greek people living outside of the traditional Greek homelands in southeast Europe and Asia Minor. Members of the diaspora can be identified as those who themselves, or whose ancestors, migrated from the Greek homelands.
How about this? The Ogre ( talk) 16:04, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
This one should avoid any POV Jkliajmi ( talk) 13:13, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Tsourkpk. Besides, Greater Europe is a contentious and less known concept. The Ogre ( talk) 02:00, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
After all the above discutions, I've asked the admin who protected the template to unprotect it in order to upload the version below. Thanks. The Ogre ( talk) 13:11, 4 August 2008 (UTC)