![]() | The discussions below were copied and archived from Template talk:Game of Go position, the talk page of Template:Game of Go position, which was redirected to Template:Goban at 19:30, 18 August 2007. |
Archive 1 |
Well I am in the process of creating a fully documented manual for both games and inclusion in articles and documentation. Not completed yet, but here it is: Wikipedia:Sandbox/Game of Go/Manual. -- Natalinasmpf 21:46, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Entering "b" renders a black seed. Nothing renders an empty square, while "x" renders an empty star point. "w" renders a white seed. The number at the lower right corner controls the size. It really should stay at 30 though, otherwise it begins to fragment because of the coordinates. Smaller sizes will have to use no coordinates for now, which is available at Template:Game of Go Position NC.
{| style="margin:1em;" | style="border: solid thin; padding: 2px;" | {{Goban|= 19 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 18 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 17 | | | |b| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 16 | | |b|w| | | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | |= 15 | | |b|w| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 14 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 13 | | | | | | | | | |w| | | | | | | | | |= 12 | | | | | | | |w|b| | | | | | | | | | |= 11 | | | | | | | | |b|w| | | | | | | | | |= 10 | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | |= 9 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 8 | | | |w|b| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 7 | | | | |w|b| | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 6 | | | | |b| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 5 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 4 | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | |= 3 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 2 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 1 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= a b c d e f g h j k l m n o p q r s t |30}} |- |}
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See the manual for instructions. This is only a demonstration of the template's two letter capacity.
{| style="margin:1em;" | style="border: solid thin; padding: 2px;" | {{Goban|= 19 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 18 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 17 | | |b1| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 16 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 15 | | | |w2| | | | | |xl| | | | | |xl| | | |= 14 | |b3| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 13 | | | |w4| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 12 | | | | | | | |bl| | | | | | | | | | | |= 11 | | | | | |wl| | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 10 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 9 | | | |xl| | | | | |xl| | | | | |xl| | | |= 8 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 7 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 6 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 5 | | | | |wl| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 4 | | | |xl| |bl|wl| | |xl| | | | | |xl| | | |= 3 | | | |bl| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 2 | | | | | |bl| | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 1 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= a b c d e f g h j k l m n o p q r s t |30}} |- |}
The only problem, is I can't align the last row. Help! -- Natalinasmpf 01:21, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Partially resolved the issue by removing borders, but I would really like them. -- Natalinasmpf 01:21, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
You are trying to get the borders on the outside of the numbers? As in the whole table? Dalf | Talk 01:23, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
If you make it much smaller than 30 (which is really too big for most articles) you start to get gaps because of the width of the digets. You might instead of doing pixel size do some sort of small/normal/large format and remove the numbers where needed. Or perhaps we can change the font size. I tried it at 15 and 10 and both looked strange. Dalf | Talk 01:36, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
{{Template:Game of Go Position NC|<!-- 19 --> | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 18 --> | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 17 --> | | |b| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 16 --> | |a|w2| | | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | |<!-- 15 --> | |b1|w| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 14 --> | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 13 --> | | | | | | | | |w| | | | | | | | | |<!-- 12 --> | | | | | | |w|b| | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 11 --> | | | | | | | |b|w| | | | | | | | | |<!-- 10 --> | | |x| | | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | |<!-- 9 --> | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 8 --> | | |w|b| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 7 --> | | | |w|b| | | | | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 6 --> | | | |b| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 5 --> | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 4 --> | | |x| | | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | |<!-- 3 --> | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 2 --> | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 1 --> | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |15}} <!-- a b c d e f g h j k l m n o p q r s t --> |
I actually think instead of (or in addition to) the other sized boards we should think about doing one that is a quadrant of the board with un-terminated liberties where its cut. This is a format that I have seen used in Go gooks rather a lot and also in some of the go articles here. This way you could for example create examples of various
joseki without having the whole board like here:
( Fair use image removed by ImageBacklogBot due to use in non-article space.)
Also a middle of the board view might be usefull like here:
The the problem is going to be finding the minimum number of templates to do the job and keeping it simple and not confusing. The KISS principle works here aswell. I think the names for them will be the most important part. Dalf | Talk 04:30, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I have created Template: Game of Go Position 13x13 and Template: Game of Go Position 9x9, they don't have cut liberties however, they are whole boards. But would this be sufficient? -- Natalinasmpf 05:13, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Taken from your own sandbox, here they are, I guess. Oh by the way aren't star points present in 13x13 boards as well? -- Natalinasmpf 06:48, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
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Analyse the centre! |
{| style="margin:1em;" | style="border: solid thin; padding: 2px;" | {{Template:Game of Go Position 9x9 Middle|<!-- 1 --> | | | | | | | | |<!-- 2 --> | |b| | | | | | |<!-- 3 --> | | | | | | | | |<!-- 4 --> | | | | | | | | |<!-- 5 --> | | | |b| | | | |<!-- 6 --> | | | |w|w| |b| |<!-- 7 --> | | | | | |w|b| |<!-- 8 --> | | | | | | | |b|<!-- 9 --> | | | | | | | |b|20}} <!-- a b c d e f g h j --> |- | style="text-align:center" | Analyse the centre! |}
See Empty triangle for an example of this in an article. Dalf | Talk 07:20, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
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Analyse the corner! |
{| style="margin:1em;" | style="border: solid thin; padding: 2px;" | {{Template:Game of Go Position 9x9 Quarter|<!-- 1 --> | | | | | | | | |<!-- 2 --> | |b| | | | | | |<!-- 3 --> | | | | | | | | |<!-- 4 --> | | | | |x| | | |<!-- 5 --> | | | |b| | | | |<!-- 6 --> | | | |w|w| |b| |<!-- 7 --> | | | | | |w|b| |<!-- 8 --> | | | | | | | |b|<!-- 9 --> | | | | | | | |b|30}} <!-- a b c d e f g h j --> |- | style="text-align:center" | Analyse the corner! |}
Wow you are fast ...... perhaps ignore my comments below. This is probably enough and if people want to do something different they can do it manually. Dalf | Talk 06:57, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
I am looking through some go books and it seems that depending on the example just about any view might be useful. Half the board or just one side+corner as I just made below. I wonder if there is a way with the templates to create a sort of intermediate situation where it is still partly manual but more flexible. Perhaps a template that creates a single row of variable length and optionally terminated with walls and corners. I am new to templates so I am going to have to do some reading but that way people can do things like the one below or just a stretch of wall or just a corner etc.
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This also solves a size problem for cases where the example only needs a small amount of board space. Basically I think we should try and find a solution for partial boards that only uses one or two templates but can do any X by Y segment of a 19x19 board. Dalf | Talk 06:55, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
I noticed that you ( User:Natalinasmpf) created these images. First off wow! What program did you use to make them? Was it hard to get them to line up? Second, I mentioned this above but we were focused on layout and sections of the board etc. I think if we had images for the following people could basically anything you see in a Go book:
my artictis abilities are limited but I already have a few of these done so I will upload them later today. (I just saw your post here .... I am using PAINT since my unix box with gimp on it is not up at the moment.) Dalf | Talk 22:41, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Ie 1w and 1b doesn't look as good as w1 and and b1. -- Natalinasmpf 00:08, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
I have all the numbers through 9 and the letters a and b done. I only have uploaded through the number 3 and I am going out to dinner but will upload the rest this evening. Also I shoudl have named the letter a ones with a uppercase A instead of lower since the b havse to be uppercase as not to conflict with the black stone images. We might think about moving the a images later but for now it works. If we decide not to move them then I will put c, d, e, and f all lowercase so that B is an exception with a good reason. I will work on the stones with Triangles in them tonight as well. Dalf | Talk 01:43, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Can't believe myself. The solution is so simple. We simply have two ways of citing the template, where both a two letter and one letter system will work by simply uploading duplicates of the one letter images with two letter ones. The one letter images still remain, and the one letter invocations and two letter invocations can both be used.
The only thing that this really requires changing are the documentation manuals. -- Natalinasmpf 00:17, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:Uploading images#Image_redirects
Do post the source code when you're done, I might end up trying to implement some sort of script (if the wikisoftware allows it) for some flexible board making. ;-) The requirements won't require a trailing space - the two character version will be "xl", "wl", "bl" etc which looks more aesthetic in terms of alignment. There won't be a trailing or leading whitespace requirement. Plus, if they used "x" or "xl", it doesn't matter, just that the "x1" will be there as an option for ease in alignment for two letter invocations. After all, that's how it went in the chess template. -- Natalinasmpf 05:07, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
So the combination of my limitations and MS Paint's limitations have finally defeated me. I cant seem to get a triangle inside these so that it fits and looks nice. This is pretty commonly used in Go diagrams so it would be nice if we could get it. Can you do any one of the stones with an equilateral triangle in it and upload it (use the uppercase T). From there I can cut and paste etc and get it into the others (I knew I should have installed the GIMP). Dalf | Talk 05:53, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
A list of templates for management of changes, correlations or modifications.
Record bugs (for any template here).
Discovered a bug, not really with the template, but with the way we invoke it. There should be only be one space between the -- and the next "|" character. The problem is that for now the template ignores the extra whitespace, but see " x" or " b" as "_x" and "_b", so, this should be fixed. -- Natalinasmpf 22:23, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Go diagrams never use the letter I. I removed it. Gkhan 23:20, May 8, 2005 (UTC)
Why doesn't it? If so, can you do this for all the other templates, as well as the examples, etc. (agh, I realise maintaining this is a pain.) Also concerning the one letter system, I made that mistake of not discarding the second letter format used in the chess template, should have kept it. -- Natalinasmpf 00:02, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Oh, also do this for the rest of the pages that use the template (the manual, etc.), if you can hunt them down. -- Natalinasmpf 01:21, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
I would use dummy parameters between rows, as Sverdrup suggested, demonstrated at User:Sverdrup/test4. It requires renumbering the parameters in the template.
Alternatively (here shown for chess):
{{chess position|= |rd|nd|bd|qd|kd|bd|nd|rd|=8 |pd|pd|pd|pd|pd|pd|pd|pd|=7 | | | | | | | | |=6 | | | | | | | | |=5 | | | | | | | | |=4 | | | | | | | | |=3 |pl|pl|pl|pl|pl|pl|pl|pl|=2 |rl|nl|bl|ql|kl|bl|nl|rl|=1 |30}}
gives
a | b | c | d | e | f | g | h | ||
8 | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | 8 | |||||||
7 | 7 | ||||||||
6 | 6 | ||||||||
5 | 5 | ||||||||
4 | 4 | ||||||||
3 | 3 | ||||||||
2 | 2 | ||||||||
1 | 1 | ||||||||
a | b | c | d | e | f | g | h |
(where the numbers 1-8 are just an example, not needed) because the "=" assigns a value to an unused parameter (its name is the empty string), which has no effect.-- Patrick 15:10, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
Renumbering the template? All 362? *dies* (my other concern was what about the image size parameter - the board looks so big for chess, never mind what could happen with Go). -- Natalinasmpf 19:01, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
{{Goban|= 19 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 18 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 17 | | | |b9| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 16 | | |a|w| | | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | |= 15 | | |b|w| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 14 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 13 | | | | | | | | | |w| | | | | | | | | |= 12 | | | | | | | |w|b| | | | | | | | | | |= 11 | | | | | | | | |b|w| | | | | | | | | |= 10 | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | |= 9 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 8 | | | |w|b| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 7 | | | | |w|b| | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 6 | | | | |b| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 5 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 4 | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | |= 3 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 2 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 1 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= a b c d e f g h j k l m n o p q r s t |20}}
gives:
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File:Go b10.svg |
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File:Go a.svg | ![]() |
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Ok - go ahead - but do it for all versions, and fix the wording about "comment tags" so that it gets modified for use with the equals sign. There are also many pages, such as
Template:Weiqi-image and
Template talk:Game of Go Position (this page was actually an informal manual) which promote the previous method as a way to invoke the template which has to be updated. I will have to update most of these myself (including my own page) to correspond with the new measures, and perhaps also for the two letter invocation boards as well. --
Natalinasmpf
20:54, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
By using this template, it will be very easy and convenient for us to record a Kifu (棋谱). However, to make a Kifu, we not only need to add "w" and "b", but also need to add numbers like b27, w34, b235, etc. And the current template does not support such format. I found that when a number bigger than 10 is added, the go board will be split. This causes difficulty in recording Kifu. Can we work out a solution? Your help will be greatly appreciated. -- Neo-Jay 21:02, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Ultimately, when the Mediawiki software upgrades, I might think of a proper mechanism for replacement (I'm currently contemplating programming a template that will use template:qif...it will take a lot of work to develop a 3-digit template using the current template software (note I how I've already overextended the original Template:chess position concept!) I think currently having to split it into new diagrams and new captions would be better - we can tackle stuff 9 at a time; would this be troublesome? Elle vécut heureuse à jamais ( Be eudaimonic!) 21:56, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I create a 4- Quadrant coordinate system and just modified the template to reflect this version. I think it is much better than the current 1-Quadrant coordinate system. The new one divids the Go board into four parts (North-East, North-West, South-East, and South-West), not simply one. It is easier to remember and, especially, compatible to the traditional Go number system (3-3, 4-4, etc). For instance, under this 4-Quadrant system, readers will be much easier to understand the "Double 4" fuseki (see an example at Takemiya Masaki). This 4-Quadrant coordinat system can be our Wikipedian (i.e., Wikipedist) version of Go Board Coordinate System. We can promote it to the world and replace the current various coordinat sytems for the game of Go. What do you think of it? Your opinions are greatly appreciated. Thank you very much. -- Neo-Jay 21:24, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
I was thinking of using template:qif, even... (that way, alphanumeric would be invoked by default but it could defer to quarter). Good suggestion though; is this a standard practice in your geographic location? Perhaps it just deviates? The 4-4, 3-3, thing has never been a huge problem for me using 19x19 notation...I just think of it as the amount of areas away from the board.
Meanwhile, you can help me finish the images that aren't converted in as seen in Template:Weiqi-image. There are two nightmares I have to deal with in addition - uploading this to commons, and uploading this to http://games.wikicities.com (which has a Go area but as I don't participate often and being one of the initiators of the templates apparently it has stagnated a bit *gulp*) ... then there's the whole issue of having 350+ different images for Template:Xiangqi position (possibly tens of thousands if we want arrows and diagrams)...well, that's just my rant anyway. My current priorities are to finish that, but I often don't have time...what is needed is just to open those PNG images (for the numbers) in paint and add and remove the liberty lines as needed (by eyedropping the yellow blackground and filling the lines with them). Elle vécut heureuse à jamais ( Be eudaimonic!) 00:41, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
One of key weaknesses of the alphanumberical system is the incoherence of the use of alphabet. Some use A-S, while some omit the letter "i" and use A-T. To omit "i" is becasuse it is worried that "i" may be confused with the number "1". However, the letter "l" can also very likely be confused with the number "1". Accordingly, when using the alphanumberical system, the user must be clear what kind of alphabetic system is used. -- Neo-Jay 01:55, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I just added the template to explain the Go board position. This shows the great advantage of the 4-quadrant system. It so clearly identifis the Hoshi (星) with (4, 4), Komoku (小目) with (4, 3) and (3, 4), Mokuhazushi (目外) with (3, 5) and (5, 3), and Sansan (三三) with (3, 3). It may not be a big deal for a high-level player, but it is perfect for a beginner. -- Neo-Jay 06:42, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I also found a coordinate system that omits letter "J" [4], not "i" (which the pervious Wiki coordinate sytem omits), and not "l". So, which system is exactly correct? I think the only correct solution, as I put above, is No Coordinate System At All. Thanks. -- Neo-Jay 08:06, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Another argument is this. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. But Wikipedia CAN have its own Rules of Layout, even different from those of other encyclopedias. Then the coordinate system for Go board can also been seen as a layout rule in Wikipedia for Go position. Why cannot it be original? -- Neo-Jay 08:30, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
My concern is the current invocation/transclusion system is based around alphanumerics, and other than a need for a total overhaul it would also make existing citations of the template difficult to follow. Perhaps a separate template? (If only there was an article for standard Go notation - like algebraic notation, or something). Elle vécut heureuse à jamais ( Be eudaimonic!) 22:00, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
This modification to the template breaks articles already using the template. If you want to use another coordinate system, please create another template, but don't mess with a template which is already in use.
I am going to revert the template to the classic type - the one we started to use. -- Panairjdde 23:05, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
It does look like most of the problems associated with consistency and methods for recording Go games will not be made worse by our adding to the mess. I do think that designing either two templates or figuring out some way to switch between the two (which would probably involve meta templates and would annoy a lot of people who are on a religious crusade against such things). Having algebraic system available does have some value for the future but I checked and this template is so rarely used that this change will not mess up anything in article space (there are some people playing games on talk pages who might be effected if they are noting the moves below the games in algebraic, but that is not important to the article space). For the most part I think that this issue is more the theory of what it right rather than being a practical problem. The Go articles on wikipedia are such a mess at this point that I don't think it really matters. Plus, as with the Avalanche joseki most articles that will need a Go board will not need the whole thing and the shapes and sizes they need will be so varied that the best solution is usually to do them custom anyway. This lets the individual editors pick. Dalf | Talk 22:37, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
![]() | The discussions below were copied and archived from Template talk:Game of Go position, the talk page of Template:Game of Go position, which was redirected to Template:Goban at 19:30, 18 August 2007. |
Archive 1 |
Well I am in the process of creating a fully documented manual for both games and inclusion in articles and documentation. Not completed yet, but here it is: Wikipedia:Sandbox/Game of Go/Manual. -- Natalinasmpf 21:46, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Entering "b" renders a black seed. Nothing renders an empty square, while "x" renders an empty star point. "w" renders a white seed. The number at the lower right corner controls the size. It really should stay at 30 though, otherwise it begins to fragment because of the coordinates. Smaller sizes will have to use no coordinates for now, which is available at Template:Game of Go Position NC.
{| style="margin:1em;" | style="border: solid thin; padding: 2px;" | {{Goban|= 19 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 18 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 17 | | | |b| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 16 | | |b|w| | | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | |= 15 | | |b|w| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 14 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 13 | | | | | | | | | |w| | | | | | | | | |= 12 | | | | | | | |w|b| | | | | | | | | | |= 11 | | | | | | | | |b|w| | | | | | | | | |= 10 | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | |= 9 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 8 | | | |w|b| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 7 | | | | |w|b| | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 6 | | | | |b| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 5 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 4 | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | |= 3 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 2 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 1 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= a b c d e f g h j k l m n o p q r s t |30}} |- |}
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See the manual for instructions. This is only a demonstration of the template's two letter capacity.
{| style="margin:1em;" | style="border: solid thin; padding: 2px;" | {{Goban|= 19 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 18 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 17 | | |b1| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 16 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 15 | | | |w2| | | | | |xl| | | | | |xl| | | |= 14 | |b3| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 13 | | | |w4| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 12 | | | | | | | |bl| | | | | | | | | | | |= 11 | | | | | |wl| | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 10 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 9 | | | |xl| | | | | |xl| | | | | |xl| | | |= 8 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 7 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 6 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 5 | | | | |wl| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 4 | | | |xl| |bl|wl| | |xl| | | | | |xl| | | |= 3 | | | |bl| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 2 | | | | | |bl| | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 1 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= a b c d e f g h j k l m n o p q r s t |30}} |- |}
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The only problem, is I can't align the last row. Help! -- Natalinasmpf 01:21, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Partially resolved the issue by removing borders, but I would really like them. -- Natalinasmpf 01:21, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
You are trying to get the borders on the outside of the numbers? As in the whole table? Dalf | Talk 01:23, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
If you make it much smaller than 30 (which is really too big for most articles) you start to get gaps because of the width of the digets. You might instead of doing pixel size do some sort of small/normal/large format and remove the numbers where needed. Or perhaps we can change the font size. I tried it at 15 and 10 and both looked strange. Dalf | Talk 01:36, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
{{Template:Game of Go Position NC|<!-- 19 --> | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 18 --> | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 17 --> | | |b| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 16 --> | |a|w2| | | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | |<!-- 15 --> | |b1|w| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 14 --> | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 13 --> | | | | | | | | |w| | | | | | | | | |<!-- 12 --> | | | | | | |w|b| | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 11 --> | | | | | | | |b|w| | | | | | | | | |<!-- 10 --> | | |x| | | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | |<!-- 9 --> | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 8 --> | | |w|b| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 7 --> | | | |w|b| | | | | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 6 --> | | | |b| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 5 --> | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 4 --> | | |x| | | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | |<!-- 3 --> | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 2 --> | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |<!-- 1 --> | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |15}} <!-- a b c d e f g h j k l m n o p q r s t --> |
I actually think instead of (or in addition to) the other sized boards we should think about doing one that is a quadrant of the board with un-terminated liberties where its cut. This is a format that I have seen used in Go gooks rather a lot and also in some of the go articles here. This way you could for example create examples of various
joseki without having the whole board like here:
( Fair use image removed by ImageBacklogBot due to use in non-article space.)
Also a middle of the board view might be usefull like here:
The the problem is going to be finding the minimum number of templates to do the job and keeping it simple and not confusing. The KISS principle works here aswell. I think the names for them will be the most important part. Dalf | Talk 04:30, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I have created Template: Game of Go Position 13x13 and Template: Game of Go Position 9x9, they don't have cut liberties however, they are whole boards. But would this be sufficient? -- Natalinasmpf 05:13, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Taken from your own sandbox, here they are, I guess. Oh by the way aren't star points present in 13x13 boards as well? -- Natalinasmpf 06:48, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
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Analyse the centre! |
{| style="margin:1em;" | style="border: solid thin; padding: 2px;" | {{Template:Game of Go Position 9x9 Middle|<!-- 1 --> | | | | | | | | |<!-- 2 --> | |b| | | | | | |<!-- 3 --> | | | | | | | | |<!-- 4 --> | | | | | | | | |<!-- 5 --> | | | |b| | | | |<!-- 6 --> | | | |w|w| |b| |<!-- 7 --> | | | | | |w|b| |<!-- 8 --> | | | | | | | |b|<!-- 9 --> | | | | | | | |b|20}} <!-- a b c d e f g h j --> |- | style="text-align:center" | Analyse the centre! |}
See Empty triangle for an example of this in an article. Dalf | Talk 07:20, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
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Analyse the corner! |
{| style="margin:1em;" | style="border: solid thin; padding: 2px;" | {{Template:Game of Go Position 9x9 Quarter|<!-- 1 --> | | | | | | | | |<!-- 2 --> | |b| | | | | | |<!-- 3 --> | | | | | | | | |<!-- 4 --> | | | | |x| | | |<!-- 5 --> | | | |b| | | | |<!-- 6 --> | | | |w|w| |b| |<!-- 7 --> | | | | | |w|b| |<!-- 8 --> | | | | | | | |b|<!-- 9 --> | | | | | | | |b|30}} <!-- a b c d e f g h j --> |- | style="text-align:center" | Analyse the corner! |}
Wow you are fast ...... perhaps ignore my comments below. This is probably enough and if people want to do something different they can do it manually. Dalf | Talk 06:57, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
I am looking through some go books and it seems that depending on the example just about any view might be useful. Half the board or just one side+corner as I just made below. I wonder if there is a way with the templates to create a sort of intermediate situation where it is still partly manual but more flexible. Perhaps a template that creates a single row of variable length and optionally terminated with walls and corners. I am new to templates so I am going to have to do some reading but that way people can do things like the one below or just a stretch of wall or just a corner etc.
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This also solves a size problem for cases where the example only needs a small amount of board space. Basically I think we should try and find a solution for partial boards that only uses one or two templates but can do any X by Y segment of a 19x19 board. Dalf | Talk 06:55, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
I noticed that you ( User:Natalinasmpf) created these images. First off wow! What program did you use to make them? Was it hard to get them to line up? Second, I mentioned this above but we were focused on layout and sections of the board etc. I think if we had images for the following people could basically anything you see in a Go book:
my artictis abilities are limited but I already have a few of these done so I will upload them later today. (I just saw your post here .... I am using PAINT since my unix box with gimp on it is not up at the moment.) Dalf | Talk 22:41, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Ie 1w and 1b doesn't look as good as w1 and and b1. -- Natalinasmpf 00:08, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
I have all the numbers through 9 and the letters a and b done. I only have uploaded through the number 3 and I am going out to dinner but will upload the rest this evening. Also I shoudl have named the letter a ones with a uppercase A instead of lower since the b havse to be uppercase as not to conflict with the black stone images. We might think about moving the a images later but for now it works. If we decide not to move them then I will put c, d, e, and f all lowercase so that B is an exception with a good reason. I will work on the stones with Triangles in them tonight as well. Dalf | Talk 01:43, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Can't believe myself. The solution is so simple. We simply have two ways of citing the template, where both a two letter and one letter system will work by simply uploading duplicates of the one letter images with two letter ones. The one letter images still remain, and the one letter invocations and two letter invocations can both be used.
The only thing that this really requires changing are the documentation manuals. -- Natalinasmpf 00:17, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:Uploading images#Image_redirects
Do post the source code when you're done, I might end up trying to implement some sort of script (if the wikisoftware allows it) for some flexible board making. ;-) The requirements won't require a trailing space - the two character version will be "xl", "wl", "bl" etc which looks more aesthetic in terms of alignment. There won't be a trailing or leading whitespace requirement. Plus, if they used "x" or "xl", it doesn't matter, just that the "x1" will be there as an option for ease in alignment for two letter invocations. After all, that's how it went in the chess template. -- Natalinasmpf 05:07, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
So the combination of my limitations and MS Paint's limitations have finally defeated me. I cant seem to get a triangle inside these so that it fits and looks nice. This is pretty commonly used in Go diagrams so it would be nice if we could get it. Can you do any one of the stones with an equilateral triangle in it and upload it (use the uppercase T). From there I can cut and paste etc and get it into the others (I knew I should have installed the GIMP). Dalf | Talk 05:53, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
A list of templates for management of changes, correlations or modifications.
Record bugs (for any template here).
Discovered a bug, not really with the template, but with the way we invoke it. There should be only be one space between the -- and the next "|" character. The problem is that for now the template ignores the extra whitespace, but see " x" or " b" as "_x" and "_b", so, this should be fixed. -- Natalinasmpf 22:23, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Go diagrams never use the letter I. I removed it. Gkhan 23:20, May 8, 2005 (UTC)
Why doesn't it? If so, can you do this for all the other templates, as well as the examples, etc. (agh, I realise maintaining this is a pain.) Also concerning the one letter system, I made that mistake of not discarding the second letter format used in the chess template, should have kept it. -- Natalinasmpf 00:02, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Oh, also do this for the rest of the pages that use the template (the manual, etc.), if you can hunt them down. -- Natalinasmpf 01:21, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
I would use dummy parameters between rows, as Sverdrup suggested, demonstrated at User:Sverdrup/test4. It requires renumbering the parameters in the template.
Alternatively (here shown for chess):
{{chess position|= |rd|nd|bd|qd|kd|bd|nd|rd|=8 |pd|pd|pd|pd|pd|pd|pd|pd|=7 | | | | | | | | |=6 | | | | | | | | |=5 | | | | | | | | |=4 | | | | | | | | |=3 |pl|pl|pl|pl|pl|pl|pl|pl|=2 |rl|nl|bl|ql|kl|bl|nl|rl|=1 |30}}
gives
a | b | c | d | e | f | g | h | ||
8 | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | 8 | |||||||
7 | 7 | ||||||||
6 | 6 | ||||||||
5 | 5 | ||||||||
4 | 4 | ||||||||
3 | 3 | ||||||||
2 | 2 | ||||||||
1 | 1 | ||||||||
a | b | c | d | e | f | g | h |
(where the numbers 1-8 are just an example, not needed) because the "=" assigns a value to an unused parameter (its name is the empty string), which has no effect.-- Patrick 15:10, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
Renumbering the template? All 362? *dies* (my other concern was what about the image size parameter - the board looks so big for chess, never mind what could happen with Go). -- Natalinasmpf 19:01, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
{{Goban|= 19 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 18 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 17 | | | |b9| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 16 | | |a|w| | | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | |= 15 | | |b|w| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 14 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 13 | | | | | | | | | |w| | | | | | | | | |= 12 | | | | | | | |w|b| | | | | | | | | | |= 11 | | | | | | | | |b|w| | | | | | | | | |= 10 | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | |= 9 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 8 | | | |w|b| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 7 | | | | |w|b| | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 6 | | | | |b| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 5 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 4 | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | | | |x| | | |= 3 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 2 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= 1 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |= a b c d e f g h j k l m n o p q r s t |20}}
gives:
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Ok - go ahead - but do it for all versions, and fix the wording about "comment tags" so that it gets modified for use with the equals sign. There are also many pages, such as
Template:Weiqi-image and
Template talk:Game of Go Position (this page was actually an informal manual) which promote the previous method as a way to invoke the template which has to be updated. I will have to update most of these myself (including my own page) to correspond with the new measures, and perhaps also for the two letter invocation boards as well. --
Natalinasmpf
20:54, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
By using this template, it will be very easy and convenient for us to record a Kifu (棋谱). However, to make a Kifu, we not only need to add "w" and "b", but also need to add numbers like b27, w34, b235, etc. And the current template does not support such format. I found that when a number bigger than 10 is added, the go board will be split. This causes difficulty in recording Kifu. Can we work out a solution? Your help will be greatly appreciated. -- Neo-Jay 21:02, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Ultimately, when the Mediawiki software upgrades, I might think of a proper mechanism for replacement (I'm currently contemplating programming a template that will use template:qif...it will take a lot of work to develop a 3-digit template using the current template software (note I how I've already overextended the original Template:chess position concept!) I think currently having to split it into new diagrams and new captions would be better - we can tackle stuff 9 at a time; would this be troublesome? Elle vécut heureuse à jamais ( Be eudaimonic!) 21:56, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I create a 4- Quadrant coordinate system and just modified the template to reflect this version. I think it is much better than the current 1-Quadrant coordinate system. The new one divids the Go board into four parts (North-East, North-West, South-East, and South-West), not simply one. It is easier to remember and, especially, compatible to the traditional Go number system (3-3, 4-4, etc). For instance, under this 4-Quadrant system, readers will be much easier to understand the "Double 4" fuseki (see an example at Takemiya Masaki). This 4-Quadrant coordinat system can be our Wikipedian (i.e., Wikipedist) version of Go Board Coordinate System. We can promote it to the world and replace the current various coordinat sytems for the game of Go. What do you think of it? Your opinions are greatly appreciated. Thank you very much. -- Neo-Jay 21:24, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
I was thinking of using template:qif, even... (that way, alphanumeric would be invoked by default but it could defer to quarter). Good suggestion though; is this a standard practice in your geographic location? Perhaps it just deviates? The 4-4, 3-3, thing has never been a huge problem for me using 19x19 notation...I just think of it as the amount of areas away from the board.
Meanwhile, you can help me finish the images that aren't converted in as seen in Template:Weiqi-image. There are two nightmares I have to deal with in addition - uploading this to commons, and uploading this to http://games.wikicities.com (which has a Go area but as I don't participate often and being one of the initiators of the templates apparently it has stagnated a bit *gulp*) ... then there's the whole issue of having 350+ different images for Template:Xiangqi position (possibly tens of thousands if we want arrows and diagrams)...well, that's just my rant anyway. My current priorities are to finish that, but I often don't have time...what is needed is just to open those PNG images (for the numbers) in paint and add and remove the liberty lines as needed (by eyedropping the yellow blackground and filling the lines with them). Elle vécut heureuse à jamais ( Be eudaimonic!) 00:41, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
One of key weaknesses of the alphanumberical system is the incoherence of the use of alphabet. Some use A-S, while some omit the letter "i" and use A-T. To omit "i" is becasuse it is worried that "i" may be confused with the number "1". However, the letter "l" can also very likely be confused with the number "1". Accordingly, when using the alphanumberical system, the user must be clear what kind of alphabetic system is used. -- Neo-Jay 01:55, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I just added the template to explain the Go board position. This shows the great advantage of the 4-quadrant system. It so clearly identifis the Hoshi (星) with (4, 4), Komoku (小目) with (4, 3) and (3, 4), Mokuhazushi (目外) with (3, 5) and (5, 3), and Sansan (三三) with (3, 3). It may not be a big deal for a high-level player, but it is perfect for a beginner. -- Neo-Jay 06:42, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I also found a coordinate system that omits letter "J" [4], not "i" (which the pervious Wiki coordinate sytem omits), and not "l". So, which system is exactly correct? I think the only correct solution, as I put above, is No Coordinate System At All. Thanks. -- Neo-Jay 08:06, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Another argument is this. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. But Wikipedia CAN have its own Rules of Layout, even different from those of other encyclopedias. Then the coordinate system for Go board can also been seen as a layout rule in Wikipedia for Go position. Why cannot it be original? -- Neo-Jay 08:30, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
My concern is the current invocation/transclusion system is based around alphanumerics, and other than a need for a total overhaul it would also make existing citations of the template difficult to follow. Perhaps a separate template? (If only there was an article for standard Go notation - like algebraic notation, or something). Elle vécut heureuse à jamais ( Be eudaimonic!) 22:00, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
This modification to the template breaks articles already using the template. If you want to use another coordinate system, please create another template, but don't mess with a template which is already in use.
I am going to revert the template to the classic type - the one we started to use. -- Panairjdde 23:05, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
It does look like most of the problems associated with consistency and methods for recording Go games will not be made worse by our adding to the mess. I do think that designing either two templates or figuring out some way to switch between the two (which would probably involve meta templates and would annoy a lot of people who are on a religious crusade against such things). Having algebraic system available does have some value for the future but I checked and this template is so rarely used that this change will not mess up anything in article space (there are some people playing games on talk pages who might be effected if they are noting the moves below the games in algebraic, but that is not important to the article space). For the most part I think that this issue is more the theory of what it right rather than being a practical problem. The Go articles on wikipedia are such a mess at this point that I don't think it really matters. Plus, as with the Avalanche joseki most articles that will need a Go board will not need the whole thing and the shapes and sizes they need will be so varied that the best solution is usually to do them custom anyway. This lets the individual editors pick. Dalf | Talk 22:37, 28 January 2006 (UTC)