The present text "Freiherr von is a title (Baron of ...), not a first or middle name." isn't right; "von" is not a title, it's a particle, and it's independent of "Freiherr". The template also appears to be linked into pages of some men who aren't "Freiherr"s (some "Ritter"s for example). And I question whether the same information couldn't be conveyed simply by linking "Freiherr". I'll correct the "von" part. -- Nunh-huh 01:28, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Hi, Stan,
I do think that generally, templates are overused. If you think it's important to have information about titles in each article (I think linking the title is a better approach) I would think the way to go would be a footnote1. But these would have to be inserted manually, and numbered manually. Linking (as you did "von") allows for a fuller discussion of the topic and is less distraction, I think. That's just my opinion, I'm sure others have...others. -
Nunh-huh 02:43, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
=== Under some heading === Comes a statement<ref>Which has this little reference</ref>. The paragraph then continues, and below comes a section with ... === References === <references />
Comes a statement [1]. The paragraph then continues, and below comes a section with ...
<references />
, one can use <div class="references-small"><references /></div>
to have the references displayed in a smaller font. --
Swift 19:13, 25 August 2006 (UTC)Might it be a good idea to merge the "German title" templates. I came across them at Wikipedia:Template_messages/Links#Internal_links and they all seem to have a very similar structure. These would be easily merged using m:ParserFunctions. -- Swift 22:36, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
{{
German title|Freiherr}}
would give the same results as {{
German title Freiherr}}
, and likewise with the rest.Note regarding personal names: ''[[{{{1}}}]]'' is a title, translated as {{ #switch: {{{1}}} | Freiherr = ''[[Baron]]'' | Fürst = ''[[Prince]]'' | Graf = ''[[Count]]'' | Herzog = ''[[Duke]]'' | Prinz = ''[[Prince]]'' | Reichsfreiherr = ''Baron of the Empire'' | Ritter = ''[[Knight]]'' }}, not a first or middle name. {{ | Freiherr = The female forms are ''[[Freifrau]]'' and ''[[Freiin]]''. | Fürst = The female form is ''[[Fürstin]]''. | Graf = The female form is ''[[Gräfin]]''. | Herzog = The female form is ''[[Herzogin]]''. | Prinz = The female form is ''[[Prinzessin]]''. | Reichsfreiherr = | Ritter = There is no equivalent female form. }}
{{
German title|Freiherr}}
. I don't find this complicated, but that's beside the point. The important question is; do you (plural again) find this complicated?{{
German title|Freiherr}}
gives Note regarding personal names:
Freiherr is a title, translated as
Baron, not a first or middle name. The female forms are
Freifrau and
Freiin., then it is fine. If {{
German title|Edle}}
gives * Note regarding personal names:
Edle is a rank of nobility, not a first or middle name. The male form is
Edler., then it is fine. If {{
German title|Ritter}}
gives * Note regarding personal names:
Ritter is a title, translated approximately as
Knight, not a first or middle name. There is no equivalent female form., then that is fine.Template:German title Freiherr ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) | Regarding personal names: Freiherr is a former title (translated as Baron). In Germany since 1919, it forms part of family names. The feminine forms are Freifrau and Freiin. |
Template:German title Ritter ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) | Regarding personal names: Ritter is a title, translated approximately as Sir (denoting a Knight), not a first or middle name. There is no equivalent female form. |
Template:German title Edle ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) | Regarding personal names: Edle is a rank of nobility, not a first or middle name. The male form is Edler. |
So, to summarize: We can
I'm not comfortable with making the decision since I neither have the experience of where these are used nor have I ever used them, but I'd be more than happy to help with setting this up. Do you guys want to make a decision on this? -- Swift 22:45, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
;-)
, this would require two changes for all of the titles/ranks if you opt for reducing the number of templates. However, if you think you might want to make changes to some of the title/rank texts, but not all, you should certainly opt for the many.;-)
). I'll then populate it with the existing templates and then create the ParserFunction ones. --
Swift 01:29, 21 September 2006 (UTC)Templates are great for sharing content or maintaining a consistent style or structure of content. The "German title" templates seem to have changed little and therefore there isn't all that much need for the template transclutions.
Every time the page is loaded, it makes an extra call to the database to include the template. This can be avoided by placing "subst:" in front of the template name: {{ subst:German title Freiherr}}. The template text is then copied into the article as it would appear.
To maintain a list of the pages where the template has been used — as can currently be generated by the "What links here" link in the toolbox — a category could be created to which the template would add the page to. -- Swift 22:43, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
In #Merging "German title" templates, Charles noted: "I am against any suggestion of substitution". Why? (See: Help:Substitution for discussion). -- Swift 22:01, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
This should read "was a title". The nobility in Germany was abolished decades ago, so nowadays any Freiherr etc. is simply a part of the name and NOT a title anymore. -- Rosenzweig 18:12, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Use of this template in its current incarnation has resulted in some misleading statements in articles such as
Gustav Ritter von Kahr, discussing people for whom words such as Ritter were not noble titles when they died. I've added a parameter to {{
German title Ritter}}
to allow for more accurate statements in such cases. The situation is different for 1) people who died before 18 March 1919, for whom it was a title and not a name; 2) people who were alive on that date, for whom it was originally a title, but then became part of their name; and 3) people born after that date, who never held a noble title. I recommend adopting this approach for all German noble titles templates.
Hairy Dude (
talk) 13:49, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
The present text "Freiherr von is a title (Baron of ...), not a first or middle name." isn't right; "von" is not a title, it's a particle, and it's independent of "Freiherr". The template also appears to be linked into pages of some men who aren't "Freiherr"s (some "Ritter"s for example). And I question whether the same information couldn't be conveyed simply by linking "Freiherr". I'll correct the "von" part. -- Nunh-huh 01:28, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Hi, Stan,
I do think that generally, templates are overused. If you think it's important to have information about titles in each article (I think linking the title is a better approach) I would think the way to go would be a footnote1. But these would have to be inserted manually, and numbered manually. Linking (as you did "von") allows for a fuller discussion of the topic and is less distraction, I think. That's just my opinion, I'm sure others have...others. -
Nunh-huh 02:43, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
=== Under some heading === Comes a statement<ref>Which has this little reference</ref>. The paragraph then continues, and below comes a section with ... === References === <references />
Comes a statement [1]. The paragraph then continues, and below comes a section with ...
<references />
, one can use <div class="references-small"><references /></div>
to have the references displayed in a smaller font. --
Swift 19:13, 25 August 2006 (UTC)Might it be a good idea to merge the "German title" templates. I came across them at Wikipedia:Template_messages/Links#Internal_links and they all seem to have a very similar structure. These would be easily merged using m:ParserFunctions. -- Swift 22:36, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
{{
German title|Freiherr}}
would give the same results as {{
German title Freiherr}}
, and likewise with the rest.Note regarding personal names: ''[[{{{1}}}]]'' is a title, translated as {{ #switch: {{{1}}} | Freiherr = ''[[Baron]]'' | Fürst = ''[[Prince]]'' | Graf = ''[[Count]]'' | Herzog = ''[[Duke]]'' | Prinz = ''[[Prince]]'' | Reichsfreiherr = ''Baron of the Empire'' | Ritter = ''[[Knight]]'' }}, not a first or middle name. {{ | Freiherr = The female forms are ''[[Freifrau]]'' and ''[[Freiin]]''. | Fürst = The female form is ''[[Fürstin]]''. | Graf = The female form is ''[[Gräfin]]''. | Herzog = The female form is ''[[Herzogin]]''. | Prinz = The female form is ''[[Prinzessin]]''. | Reichsfreiherr = | Ritter = There is no equivalent female form. }}
{{
German title|Freiherr}}
. I don't find this complicated, but that's beside the point. The important question is; do you (plural again) find this complicated?{{
German title|Freiherr}}
gives Note regarding personal names:
Freiherr is a title, translated as
Baron, not a first or middle name. The female forms are
Freifrau and
Freiin., then it is fine. If {{
German title|Edle}}
gives * Note regarding personal names:
Edle is a rank of nobility, not a first or middle name. The male form is
Edler., then it is fine. If {{
German title|Ritter}}
gives * Note regarding personal names:
Ritter is a title, translated approximately as
Knight, not a first or middle name. There is no equivalent female form., then that is fine.Template:German title Freiherr ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) | Regarding personal names: Freiherr is a former title (translated as Baron). In Germany since 1919, it forms part of family names. The feminine forms are Freifrau and Freiin. |
Template:German title Ritter ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) | Regarding personal names: Ritter is a title, translated approximately as Sir (denoting a Knight), not a first or middle name. There is no equivalent female form. |
Template:German title Edle ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) | Regarding personal names: Edle is a rank of nobility, not a first or middle name. The male form is Edler. |
So, to summarize: We can
I'm not comfortable with making the decision since I neither have the experience of where these are used nor have I ever used them, but I'd be more than happy to help with setting this up. Do you guys want to make a decision on this? -- Swift 22:45, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
;-)
, this would require two changes for all of the titles/ranks if you opt for reducing the number of templates. However, if you think you might want to make changes to some of the title/rank texts, but not all, you should certainly opt for the many.;-)
). I'll then populate it with the existing templates and then create the ParserFunction ones. --
Swift 01:29, 21 September 2006 (UTC)Templates are great for sharing content or maintaining a consistent style or structure of content. The "German title" templates seem to have changed little and therefore there isn't all that much need for the template transclutions.
Every time the page is loaded, it makes an extra call to the database to include the template. This can be avoided by placing "subst:" in front of the template name: {{ subst:German title Freiherr}}. The template text is then copied into the article as it would appear.
To maintain a list of the pages where the template has been used — as can currently be generated by the "What links here" link in the toolbox — a category could be created to which the template would add the page to. -- Swift 22:43, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
In #Merging "German title" templates, Charles noted: "I am against any suggestion of substitution". Why? (See: Help:Substitution for discussion). -- Swift 22:01, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
This should read "was a title". The nobility in Germany was abolished decades ago, so nowadays any Freiherr etc. is simply a part of the name and NOT a title anymore. -- Rosenzweig 18:12, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Use of this template in its current incarnation has resulted in some misleading statements in articles such as
Gustav Ritter von Kahr, discussing people for whom words such as Ritter were not noble titles when they died. I've added a parameter to {{
German title Ritter}}
to allow for more accurate statements in such cases. The situation is different for 1) people who died before 18 March 1919, for whom it was a title and not a name; 2) people who were alive on that date, for whom it was originally a title, but then became part of their name; and 3) people born after that date, who never held a noble title. I recommend adopting this approach for all German noble titles templates.
Hairy Dude (
talk) 13:49, 25 August 2018 (UTC)