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I'm not sure that categorising them by Doctor is aesthetically pleasing. It's useful, sure, but it winds up, as you can see, with a gap where the Eighth Doctor stuff should be (barring audio plays). How about something on the lines of what is being done for the audio plays, like this? -- khaosworks 01:24, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)
What about The Five Doctors? Not in the template, but it had a Dalek with a speaking role, or am I just dreaming? Though whether it ought to be listed under First or Fifth Doctor... :-) Stephenb (Talk) 17:21, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it's a Dalek story at all; seeing as how Skaro's finest only have as much screen time as the Yeti, and even the Raston Warrior Robot gets more screen time than Davros's progeny. It's a Cyberman and Master story, indubitably, because both have a significant impact on the story. BUT the Dalek that menaces Richard Hurdnall could just as easily have been an Ice Warrior, or (heaven forbid) a Taran Beast! NP Chilla 11:34, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Okay then, I'll give it a shot - "Dalek television stories" means that the Dalek(s) is/are entirely central to the plot and the story could not do without them. "Television stories with Daleks in them", by your own definition, means that any mention or slight appearance of the creatures would count (be it The Space Museum's five second cameo, or The Sensorites in-passing-mention of the beasts). The difference, I think, is now evident. :) NP Chilla 18:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, I'll jump in on the minority opinion - I think The Five Doctors qualifies for the template. The Dalek isn't the primary villain, but its appearance does advance the plot (if I remember correctly, the explosion it causes blasts a hole in the wall, giving the Doctor and Susan a way out and showing them that they're in the Death Zone). Sure, other monsters could have done the same thing, but other monsters could have stood in for the Cybermen, and other renegade Time Lords could have stood in for the Master. This isn't a story primarily about the Daleks, but it is a Dalek story. -- Brian Olsen 05:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
The Dalek in The Five Doctors is new footage featuring a speaking and functioning Dalek. Comparing it to Dalek being a Cybermen story dosen't make sense.
I don't think we are going to get past this stale at the moment. I would like to find a way that we can sort it out. Now, Without discussing the actual arguments (in this section). Are any of these ideas useful -
What about adding a "minor appearances" section to the template, like on the newly created UNIT Stories? It would avoid the constant adding and deleting of "The Five Doctors," and we could include "The Space Museum" as well. (And possibly others I haven't thought of.) -- Brian Olsen 18:13, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Why has this suddenly sprung up on the template? - NP Chilla 20:15, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Is this going to be under Third Doctor stories or minor appearances? It's currently under both. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.32.48.236 ( talk) 20:52, 8 March 2007 (UTC).
I originally put this in the minor appearance as in the episode, it is a minor appearance. Their appearance is similar to that of Frontier in Space - having a significant presence but don't appear much in the episode himself. While I know the template header says "stories", that's just to prevent a PoV by using "serial" or "episode". 82 also suggested in edit summaries, why we don't we split the First Doctor articles into the episode titles - basically because the BBC have given the serials overall official names.
I've got no objections against the forward slash for new series stories in two-parts, by the way. Just an objection against "Army of Ghosts" being a major appearance because its following episode is. Will ( talk) 23:19, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I see! So Rise of the Cybermen is also a minor appearance, and The Age of Steel goes under Tenth Doctor stories, since we only see the Cybermen right near the end.
If this is a reference to the picture in The Journal of Impossible Things then that is a REALLY minor reference isn't it? If that is going to be on here, so should " Invasion of the Bane" for the Dalek picture in SJS's attic. -- GracieLizzie 23:19, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
A while ago the template featured this under minor appearances, but now it's gone altogether. I don't know what role Dalek appearances played in that story because I haven't seen it. i just wondered if anyone could tell me the details of the demotion - or, for that matter, why it was initially included.
The Doctor Who wikiproject established a standard awhile ago that Doctor Who stories titles (and single episodes in the case of the new series) are italicized, so I made the appropriate change to the template. 68.146.47.196 15:50, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Where mentioned in subsequent text, serial titles from the classic series should be italicised and reference should be made to the year it was broadcast (and/or which Doctor's era it belonged to). Episode titles from the new series and its spin-offs, as well as individual episodes within serials from the classic series, should be put in quotes.
Why is Frontier in Space in the main list and not under "minor appearances" - there appearance on screen amounts to two very brief scenes, and is only as a lead into the next story. It isn't really any more "major" an appearance that the cliffhanger at The Space museum leading into the Chase - which also features Daleks. 188.221.79.22 ( talk) 22:24, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
The End of Time, in my view, qualifies as a minor appearance by the Daleks — not because of the saucers in the preview for Part Two (thank you, Maccy69, for correcting my impetuosity), but (having reviewed the episode) because of Donna's flashbacks in the final seconds of Part One, where we (briefly) glimpse the crazed Caan and exploding Dalek Supreme from " Journey's End". These images would surely justify this story's inclusion on the template if we are going with the rationale that flashbacks from previous stories count as "minor" appearances. If Logopolis is considered such an appearance simply for that one-second vision of a Dalek (re-used from Destiny of the Daleks, I think) saying "Doctor", and Mawdryn Undead counts because of the Brigadier's memory recall (meanwhile, in " Human Nature", the "appearance" in question is nothing more than a sketch in John Smith's journal), then, by reasonable extension, The End of Time should be included also since, as with the Brigadier, Donna's memories are returning to her. Of course, who knows whether or not there will be an unequivocal Dalek appearance (whether minor or not so minor) in the second part, in which case the addition could not be debated, but I believe that the story already satisfies the criteria for inclusion if the examples mentioned above are to remain on the template.
The problem, I suppose, is that some of the minor appearances are more minor than others, some (e.g. Logopolis, Mawdryn Undead) being mere flashbacks using recycled footage, others (e.g. The Five Doctors, " The Waters of Mars") being specially shot, fleshed-out parts. The End of Time is currently on the Davros stories template (Davros also appearing in flashback at the end of Part One); I don't see why it cannot also be considered a minor Dalek appearance for this reason. SuperMarioMan ( talk) 19:51, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Don't the Daleks technically count as the enemies in the series 5 finale? It might be thought to be an unreliable website, because, of course, it can be changed by anyone, but the Doctor Who Wiki considers the Stone Dalek to be one of the two main enemies in the episode, therefore 'The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang' belongs in the 'Eleventh Doctor' section, not 'minor appearances'. Boushenheiser ( talk) 17:23, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
Semi protected for three days. If involved parties cannot agree on which stories are minor appearences, it is going to be fully protected permanently. — Edokter ( talk) — 22:30, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Is The Day of the Doctor really a minor appearance? Daleks are central to the plot.-- Codenamecuckoo ( talk) 10:22, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
OK, I'm bringing this to the Talk Page as per DonQuixote's advice re WP:BRD. Edokter, I would be grateful if you could explain your rationale for the categorisation of The Day of the Doctor as a major, rather than minor, Dalek appearance. It doesn't appear that way to me, for the reasons put forward by Bowdenford above among others. 86.159.46.35 ( talk) 17:28, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
-- [[
User:Edokter]] {{
talk}}
19:13, 14 July 2014 (UTC)I would be grateful if someone could explain why the episode " The Pandorica Opens" isn't being categorised as a minor Dalek appearance? The Daleks aren't central to the plot and are only seen on screen for a short time. The edit summary for a recent reversion by DonQuixote, that linked-episodes need to remain grouped together, holds no water as other linked episodes have been separated without problem ( "Bad Wolf"/"The Parting of the Ways" and "Army of Ghosts"/"Doomsday" ). Unfortunately the logic is escaping me, and reversions simply asking me to stop and take a hint without explaining why "The Pandorica Opens" doesn't qualify as minor, or referring the matter to this talk page for discussion, are doing nothing to improve my understanding. 86.157.166.241 ( talk) 01:13, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Taking an equal but minor part, perhaps. In any event, the equality of any given creature's or character's contribution to a plot is not synonymous with it being integral, which is what you now appear to be arguing. Further, your assertion that "The Pandorica Opens" should be categorised as a major appearance to prevent splitting it from the second part of the tale (due, so you claim, to a tendency not to break up multi-part stories) does not stand up to even cursory examination. A 'tendency' is not a rule or even a guideline, and clearly the template does currently embrace the splitting of multi-part stories dependant upon their minor/major categorisation. So I ask again, please, what logical basis is there for classifying "The Pandorica Opens" as a major Dalek appearance? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.167.164.106 ( talk) 01:59, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Nobody is saying mere involvement decides consensus. That's a fabrication on your part to support your own position. You are correct, though, there is certainly no consensus. Bold edits have been made, followed by reversions, and there are now serious attempts being made to discuss the matter. You have decided that you no longer wish to participate in that discussion, yet you continue to insist that your opinion should prevail by default, obtaining consensus is anybody's burden but yours, and reverting without consensus contravenes process and is edit warring. Except, apparently, when you do it. Sensible questions have been raised about the logic behind your reasoning - is the status quo going to be maintained based on your refusal to answer them? How does that equate to discussion? 82.159.229.27 ( talk) 11:09, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
I want to make it clear that with my edit of 19/02/14 I am just trying to get the template up and running again after it was broken by other editors who seem to be engaged in edit warring. There is no other agenda. As I stated in the edit summary, that is the sole purpose of my action - not pushing for episode recategorisation. 86.167.164.106 ( talk) 19:50, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
See here, here and here for discussions regarding this edit and subsequent edits regarding the template structure. Bowdenford ( talk) 09:04, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
Do you reckon this would maybe be a good idea for the templates, and instead split the "Minor Appearances" into 2 groups, a "Minor Appearances" one (which includes scenes which were specially filmed for that episode) and a "Archive" one (which only includes episodes in which only previously filmed footage was used), if you get my drift? Example; like this.
This template's initial visibility currently defaults to autocollapse
, meaning that if there is another collapsible item on the page (a
navbox, sidebar, or
table with the collapsible attribute), it is hidden apart from its title bar; if not, it is fully visible.
To change this template's initial visibility, the |state=
parameter may be used:
{{Dalek stories|state=collapsed}}
will show the template collapsed, i.e. hidden apart from its title bar.{{Dalek stories|state=expanded}}
will show the template expanded, i.e. fully visible.![]() | This template does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||
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I'm not sure that categorising them by Doctor is aesthetically pleasing. It's useful, sure, but it winds up, as you can see, with a gap where the Eighth Doctor stuff should be (barring audio plays). How about something on the lines of what is being done for the audio plays, like this? -- khaosworks 01:24, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)
What about The Five Doctors? Not in the template, but it had a Dalek with a speaking role, or am I just dreaming? Though whether it ought to be listed under First or Fifth Doctor... :-) Stephenb (Talk) 17:21, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it's a Dalek story at all; seeing as how Skaro's finest only have as much screen time as the Yeti, and even the Raston Warrior Robot gets more screen time than Davros's progeny. It's a Cyberman and Master story, indubitably, because both have a significant impact on the story. BUT the Dalek that menaces Richard Hurdnall could just as easily have been an Ice Warrior, or (heaven forbid) a Taran Beast! NP Chilla 11:34, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Okay then, I'll give it a shot - "Dalek television stories" means that the Dalek(s) is/are entirely central to the plot and the story could not do without them. "Television stories with Daleks in them", by your own definition, means that any mention or slight appearance of the creatures would count (be it The Space Museum's five second cameo, or The Sensorites in-passing-mention of the beasts). The difference, I think, is now evident. :) NP Chilla 18:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, I'll jump in on the minority opinion - I think The Five Doctors qualifies for the template. The Dalek isn't the primary villain, but its appearance does advance the plot (if I remember correctly, the explosion it causes blasts a hole in the wall, giving the Doctor and Susan a way out and showing them that they're in the Death Zone). Sure, other monsters could have done the same thing, but other monsters could have stood in for the Cybermen, and other renegade Time Lords could have stood in for the Master. This isn't a story primarily about the Daleks, but it is a Dalek story. -- Brian Olsen 05:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
The Dalek in The Five Doctors is new footage featuring a speaking and functioning Dalek. Comparing it to Dalek being a Cybermen story dosen't make sense.
I don't think we are going to get past this stale at the moment. I would like to find a way that we can sort it out. Now, Without discussing the actual arguments (in this section). Are any of these ideas useful -
What about adding a "minor appearances" section to the template, like on the newly created UNIT Stories? It would avoid the constant adding and deleting of "The Five Doctors," and we could include "The Space Museum" as well. (And possibly others I haven't thought of.) -- Brian Olsen 18:13, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Why has this suddenly sprung up on the template? - NP Chilla 20:15, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Is this going to be under Third Doctor stories or minor appearances? It's currently under both. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.32.48.236 ( talk) 20:52, 8 March 2007 (UTC).
I originally put this in the minor appearance as in the episode, it is a minor appearance. Their appearance is similar to that of Frontier in Space - having a significant presence but don't appear much in the episode himself. While I know the template header says "stories", that's just to prevent a PoV by using "serial" or "episode". 82 also suggested in edit summaries, why we don't we split the First Doctor articles into the episode titles - basically because the BBC have given the serials overall official names.
I've got no objections against the forward slash for new series stories in two-parts, by the way. Just an objection against "Army of Ghosts" being a major appearance because its following episode is. Will ( talk) 23:19, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I see! So Rise of the Cybermen is also a minor appearance, and The Age of Steel goes under Tenth Doctor stories, since we only see the Cybermen right near the end.
If this is a reference to the picture in The Journal of Impossible Things then that is a REALLY minor reference isn't it? If that is going to be on here, so should " Invasion of the Bane" for the Dalek picture in SJS's attic. -- GracieLizzie 23:19, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
A while ago the template featured this under minor appearances, but now it's gone altogether. I don't know what role Dalek appearances played in that story because I haven't seen it. i just wondered if anyone could tell me the details of the demotion - or, for that matter, why it was initially included.
The Doctor Who wikiproject established a standard awhile ago that Doctor Who stories titles (and single episodes in the case of the new series) are italicized, so I made the appropriate change to the template. 68.146.47.196 15:50, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Where mentioned in subsequent text, serial titles from the classic series should be italicised and reference should be made to the year it was broadcast (and/or which Doctor's era it belonged to). Episode titles from the new series and its spin-offs, as well as individual episodes within serials from the classic series, should be put in quotes.
Why is Frontier in Space in the main list and not under "minor appearances" - there appearance on screen amounts to two very brief scenes, and is only as a lead into the next story. It isn't really any more "major" an appearance that the cliffhanger at The Space museum leading into the Chase - which also features Daleks. 188.221.79.22 ( talk) 22:24, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
The End of Time, in my view, qualifies as a minor appearance by the Daleks — not because of the saucers in the preview for Part Two (thank you, Maccy69, for correcting my impetuosity), but (having reviewed the episode) because of Donna's flashbacks in the final seconds of Part One, where we (briefly) glimpse the crazed Caan and exploding Dalek Supreme from " Journey's End". These images would surely justify this story's inclusion on the template if we are going with the rationale that flashbacks from previous stories count as "minor" appearances. If Logopolis is considered such an appearance simply for that one-second vision of a Dalek (re-used from Destiny of the Daleks, I think) saying "Doctor", and Mawdryn Undead counts because of the Brigadier's memory recall (meanwhile, in " Human Nature", the "appearance" in question is nothing more than a sketch in John Smith's journal), then, by reasonable extension, The End of Time should be included also since, as with the Brigadier, Donna's memories are returning to her. Of course, who knows whether or not there will be an unequivocal Dalek appearance (whether minor or not so minor) in the second part, in which case the addition could not be debated, but I believe that the story already satisfies the criteria for inclusion if the examples mentioned above are to remain on the template.
The problem, I suppose, is that some of the minor appearances are more minor than others, some (e.g. Logopolis, Mawdryn Undead) being mere flashbacks using recycled footage, others (e.g. The Five Doctors, " The Waters of Mars") being specially shot, fleshed-out parts. The End of Time is currently on the Davros stories template (Davros also appearing in flashback at the end of Part One); I don't see why it cannot also be considered a minor Dalek appearance for this reason. SuperMarioMan ( talk) 19:51, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Don't the Daleks technically count as the enemies in the series 5 finale? It might be thought to be an unreliable website, because, of course, it can be changed by anyone, but the Doctor Who Wiki considers the Stone Dalek to be one of the two main enemies in the episode, therefore 'The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang' belongs in the 'Eleventh Doctor' section, not 'minor appearances'. Boushenheiser ( talk) 17:23, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
Semi protected for three days. If involved parties cannot agree on which stories are minor appearences, it is going to be fully protected permanently. — Edokter ( talk) — 22:30, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Is The Day of the Doctor really a minor appearance? Daleks are central to the plot.-- Codenamecuckoo ( talk) 10:22, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
OK, I'm bringing this to the Talk Page as per DonQuixote's advice re WP:BRD. Edokter, I would be grateful if you could explain your rationale for the categorisation of The Day of the Doctor as a major, rather than minor, Dalek appearance. It doesn't appear that way to me, for the reasons put forward by Bowdenford above among others. 86.159.46.35 ( talk) 17:28, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
-- [[
User:Edokter]] {{
talk}}
19:13, 14 July 2014 (UTC)I would be grateful if someone could explain why the episode " The Pandorica Opens" isn't being categorised as a minor Dalek appearance? The Daleks aren't central to the plot and are only seen on screen for a short time. The edit summary for a recent reversion by DonQuixote, that linked-episodes need to remain grouped together, holds no water as other linked episodes have been separated without problem ( "Bad Wolf"/"The Parting of the Ways" and "Army of Ghosts"/"Doomsday" ). Unfortunately the logic is escaping me, and reversions simply asking me to stop and take a hint without explaining why "The Pandorica Opens" doesn't qualify as minor, or referring the matter to this talk page for discussion, are doing nothing to improve my understanding. 86.157.166.241 ( talk) 01:13, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Taking an equal but minor part, perhaps. In any event, the equality of any given creature's or character's contribution to a plot is not synonymous with it being integral, which is what you now appear to be arguing. Further, your assertion that "The Pandorica Opens" should be categorised as a major appearance to prevent splitting it from the second part of the tale (due, so you claim, to a tendency not to break up multi-part stories) does not stand up to even cursory examination. A 'tendency' is not a rule or even a guideline, and clearly the template does currently embrace the splitting of multi-part stories dependant upon their minor/major categorisation. So I ask again, please, what logical basis is there for classifying "The Pandorica Opens" as a major Dalek appearance? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.167.164.106 ( talk) 01:59, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Nobody is saying mere involvement decides consensus. That's a fabrication on your part to support your own position. You are correct, though, there is certainly no consensus. Bold edits have been made, followed by reversions, and there are now serious attempts being made to discuss the matter. You have decided that you no longer wish to participate in that discussion, yet you continue to insist that your opinion should prevail by default, obtaining consensus is anybody's burden but yours, and reverting without consensus contravenes process and is edit warring. Except, apparently, when you do it. Sensible questions have been raised about the logic behind your reasoning - is the status quo going to be maintained based on your refusal to answer them? How does that equate to discussion? 82.159.229.27 ( talk) 11:09, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
I want to make it clear that with my edit of 19/02/14 I am just trying to get the template up and running again after it was broken by other editors who seem to be engaged in edit warring. There is no other agenda. As I stated in the edit summary, that is the sole purpose of my action - not pushing for episode recategorisation. 86.167.164.106 ( talk) 19:50, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
See here, here and here for discussions regarding this edit and subsequent edits regarding the template structure. Bowdenford ( talk) 09:04, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
Do you reckon this would maybe be a good idea for the templates, and instead split the "Minor Appearances" into 2 groups, a "Minor Appearances" one (which includes scenes which were specially filmed for that episode) and a "Archive" one (which only includes episodes in which only previously filmed footage was used), if you get my drift? Example; like this.
This template's initial visibility currently defaults to autocollapse
, meaning that if there is another collapsible item on the page (a
navbox, sidebar, or
table with the collapsible attribute), it is hidden apart from its title bar; if not, it is fully visible.
To change this template's initial visibility, the |state=
parameter may be used:
{{Dalek stories|state=collapsed}}
will show the template collapsed, i.e. hidden apart from its title bar.{{Dalek stories|state=expanded}}
will show the template expanded, i.e. fully visible.