![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I think there's an inherent problem with this template only adhering to one continuity in various formats, rather than "DC animation" as a whole. I can understand the desire for a "Timmverse" footer, but given the "Brainiac Attacks" debate it does seem quite exclusionary. WesleyDodds 07:40, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that this is another case of "I don't like it, so it's not part of the continuity" (as was the case with some people and Batman Beyond, Static Shock, and The Zeta project). However, the fact of that matter is that there are quite a few points which suggest it is in-continuity, and actual confirmation:
With that confirmation we can say without a shadow of a doubt that the film is in DCAU canon, and that no matter how an individual feels about the matter, that it's there in black and white, and should not be removed from the article. -- Venomaru 2.0 07:52, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
The article itself states it as a continuation of the series "A feature-length continuation of the popular 1996 show, Superman: The Animated Series, Brainiac Attacks sees the man in tights taking on old enemies Lex Luthor and Brainiac, while also wrestling with his desire to disclose his identity to the lovely Miss Lane." But in the interview itself, it's in the subtext. How they wanted to respect the source material of the animated series, and such.Here's the thing though, there's no proof it's not in-continuity.
So what's your story? You read the World's Finest' reviews, and wrote it off? Saw it and hated it? Well you know what... it's not a great film, it's true. Not as bad as they say, but still not great. It's quite cliched, and follows a set formula. But that doesn't give you or anyone else the right (outside of official sources) to declare it as non-canon. Because guess what? Duane Capizzi never stated that it was outside of the DCAU continuity. He was very clear when he said he didn't write it with continuity in mind, but not once did he say he wrote it to be outside of canon.
Is the confirmation a bit weak? Perhaps, yes. But it's still the closet thing we've gotten to a statement so far (outside of Duane's extremely vague comments). I made a very solid case for it's continuity, whereas there's no factual evidence that places it outside of said continuity beyond fan-hatred. So Lex Luthor had a different VA, well, then it must be outside of the DCAU! Why, if they were to make a Batman: TAS film with differing voice actors, then they must be out of continuity too! Oh wait, they did that with Batman & Mr.Freeze: SubZero, where Batgirl's VA was replaced. And what else? Oh yes, Penguin, Bane, and Robin were re-cast for Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman. And don't even get me started on all the recast jobs in the actual series'.
Like it or not, the movie has all the signs of DCAU continuity, and no evidence to suggest it isn't. No one questioned Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman's continuity (which was a much better film, but still) when it had recasted VAs, so doing so with this one is just silly. So you don't like Brainiac Attacks, or you heard some negative stuff and wrote it off? Well, this may surprise you, but I didn't care for it either. Just because we didn't like something does not give us the right to deny its proper placement. To finish off, "Show me where it says it is in-continuity", you said. Well how about you show me where it isn't? My defense has evidence to back it up. While all you could possibly have is "I don't like it", or "different VAs!", both of which I have countered.
By the way, sorry if I was overly sarcastic, I'm tired and a bit irritated. -- Venomaru 2.0 16:53, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
No, no, I completely understand what you two are saying. And infact, I'd like to apologize for being somewhat abrasive. I've been fighting this not as a wiki issue, but as continuity issue, which is where I was mistaken. And as for being bombastic, well, I actually find that fairly interesting as no one has ever described my typing in that manner. I've never considered my manner of speech to be grandiloquent, but it's nice to know (and for the record, that's not sarcasm, or an underhanded comment, I find it genuinely interesting). But let me ask you this, would the source material itself not count as a source of sorts?
Anyways, as I've said before, I honestly didn't care for the film. I've been arguing this continuity issue on principle. But you also have to understand my point of view on this as well: Everyone expected this to be the next big thing, Superman: TAS's very own "Batman: Mask of the Phantasm. To do what that film did for Batman: TAS. And when they found out Brainiac Attacks had more-or-less a paint-by-numbers plotline the outcry was immense. Suddenly every anti-Brainiac Attacks fanboy was looking for a way to exercise it from continuity.
I understand wikipeda is a place for sources, but bear with me for a moment. Mortal Kombat: Annihilation, the film sequel to the Mortal Kombat film. It's generally hated by fans for bad acting, a large number of poor recasts, and just not living up to fan expectations. However, despite all of that, it's still canon to that film franchise, no matter how many fans despise it. Or, the Spider-Man comic series, not too long ago Peter Parker was given orgnaic webshooters in the Marvel comic continuity, much like he does in the Spider-Man films. And that doesn't suddenly make all Spider-Man comics non-canon to their own continuity. It's the same situation as Luthor being recasted to resemble his Superman film counterpart. Both changes are designed to make moviegoers feel more familiar with their other-medium counterparts.
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I'm one of the only ones fighting to prove it's place in-continuity. That you fellows are only getting the mass-hatred side of the story, and that it's not a fans prerogative to be able to stricken things from canon at a whim. It's about logic, using your mind rather than your feelings. Once again though, I do understand what wikipedia is about, I'm just explaining the situation at hand (knowing full well it most-likely won't matter). -- Venomaru 2.0 13:29, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
The reason why I feel Brainiac Attacks is in DCAU continuity is because it shares so many qualities with the equally awful DTV Mystery of the Batwoman. Same character designs yet with brighter colors, returning voice actors with inexplicable replacements for random characters, and overall juvenile storylines with continuity and tonal problems which preclude either from dovetailing completely into the DCAU. I decided to move Brainiac Attacks back into the DCAU subheading for these reasons. Therefore, to anyone reading this, I would propose a compromise: either leave both S:BA and Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman under the DCAU subheading, or simply remove BOTH into the 'stand-alone films' category. For the purposes of any kind of proof, both teams behind both productions considered their respective video features to tie into established continuity; however, the basis for MotB being included and S:BA being discounted is nonexistant, and therefore, neither can be proven. In fact, the director of S:BA considered his feature to be a continuation of the Superman Animated Series; it seems highly likely that Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman was not discredited only due to a lack of fan backlash, but there is no more sufficient evidence to canonize or de-canonize this feature too. The only proof against Superman: Brainiac Attacks are lone interviews by single members of the DTV staff (such as Curt Geda and Duane Capizzi) giving their OPINIONS as to why the respective features do or do not tie into the DCAU; this is opinion, not fact, and Warner Brothers has not confirmed nor denied either DTV's canonicity in any regard. To conclude, I move that both Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman and Superman: Brainiac Attacks should remain under the DCAU heading due to lack of any concrete proof either way beyond fan (and lone creator) opinion. If concensus wishes to move BOTH out of the DCAU heading and into the stand-alone film category, this is an equally satisfying choice which has no validity than their inclusion; but due to the above-mentioned points, the similarities between the two features are such that either both must go or neither can stay. They were both produced independently of their respective series' years after they finished and animated by new teams. -- Spacebot 05:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I think there's an inherent problem with this template only adhering to one continuity in various formats, rather than "DC animation" as a whole. I can understand the desire for a "Timmverse" footer, but given the "Brainiac Attacks" debate it does seem quite exclusionary. WesleyDodds 07:40, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that this is another case of "I don't like it, so it's not part of the continuity" (as was the case with some people and Batman Beyond, Static Shock, and The Zeta project). However, the fact of that matter is that there are quite a few points which suggest it is in-continuity, and actual confirmation:
With that confirmation we can say without a shadow of a doubt that the film is in DCAU canon, and that no matter how an individual feels about the matter, that it's there in black and white, and should not be removed from the article. -- Venomaru 2.0 07:52, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
The article itself states it as a continuation of the series "A feature-length continuation of the popular 1996 show, Superman: The Animated Series, Brainiac Attacks sees the man in tights taking on old enemies Lex Luthor and Brainiac, while also wrestling with his desire to disclose his identity to the lovely Miss Lane." But in the interview itself, it's in the subtext. How they wanted to respect the source material of the animated series, and such.Here's the thing though, there's no proof it's not in-continuity.
So what's your story? You read the World's Finest' reviews, and wrote it off? Saw it and hated it? Well you know what... it's not a great film, it's true. Not as bad as they say, but still not great. It's quite cliched, and follows a set formula. But that doesn't give you or anyone else the right (outside of official sources) to declare it as non-canon. Because guess what? Duane Capizzi never stated that it was outside of the DCAU continuity. He was very clear when he said he didn't write it with continuity in mind, but not once did he say he wrote it to be outside of canon.
Is the confirmation a bit weak? Perhaps, yes. But it's still the closet thing we've gotten to a statement so far (outside of Duane's extremely vague comments). I made a very solid case for it's continuity, whereas there's no factual evidence that places it outside of said continuity beyond fan-hatred. So Lex Luthor had a different VA, well, then it must be outside of the DCAU! Why, if they were to make a Batman: TAS film with differing voice actors, then they must be out of continuity too! Oh wait, they did that with Batman & Mr.Freeze: SubZero, where Batgirl's VA was replaced. And what else? Oh yes, Penguin, Bane, and Robin were re-cast for Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman. And don't even get me started on all the recast jobs in the actual series'.
Like it or not, the movie has all the signs of DCAU continuity, and no evidence to suggest it isn't. No one questioned Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman's continuity (which was a much better film, but still) when it had recasted VAs, so doing so with this one is just silly. So you don't like Brainiac Attacks, or you heard some negative stuff and wrote it off? Well, this may surprise you, but I didn't care for it either. Just because we didn't like something does not give us the right to deny its proper placement. To finish off, "Show me where it says it is in-continuity", you said. Well how about you show me where it isn't? My defense has evidence to back it up. While all you could possibly have is "I don't like it", or "different VAs!", both of which I have countered.
By the way, sorry if I was overly sarcastic, I'm tired and a bit irritated. -- Venomaru 2.0 16:53, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
No, no, I completely understand what you two are saying. And infact, I'd like to apologize for being somewhat abrasive. I've been fighting this not as a wiki issue, but as continuity issue, which is where I was mistaken. And as for being bombastic, well, I actually find that fairly interesting as no one has ever described my typing in that manner. I've never considered my manner of speech to be grandiloquent, but it's nice to know (and for the record, that's not sarcasm, or an underhanded comment, I find it genuinely interesting). But let me ask you this, would the source material itself not count as a source of sorts?
Anyways, as I've said before, I honestly didn't care for the film. I've been arguing this continuity issue on principle. But you also have to understand my point of view on this as well: Everyone expected this to be the next big thing, Superman: TAS's very own "Batman: Mask of the Phantasm. To do what that film did for Batman: TAS. And when they found out Brainiac Attacks had more-or-less a paint-by-numbers plotline the outcry was immense. Suddenly every anti-Brainiac Attacks fanboy was looking for a way to exercise it from continuity.
I understand wikipeda is a place for sources, but bear with me for a moment. Mortal Kombat: Annihilation, the film sequel to the Mortal Kombat film. It's generally hated by fans for bad acting, a large number of poor recasts, and just not living up to fan expectations. However, despite all of that, it's still canon to that film franchise, no matter how many fans despise it. Or, the Spider-Man comic series, not too long ago Peter Parker was given orgnaic webshooters in the Marvel comic continuity, much like he does in the Spider-Man films. And that doesn't suddenly make all Spider-Man comics non-canon to their own continuity. It's the same situation as Luthor being recasted to resemble his Superman film counterpart. Both changes are designed to make moviegoers feel more familiar with their other-medium counterparts.
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I'm one of the only ones fighting to prove it's place in-continuity. That you fellows are only getting the mass-hatred side of the story, and that it's not a fans prerogative to be able to stricken things from canon at a whim. It's about logic, using your mind rather than your feelings. Once again though, I do understand what wikipedia is about, I'm just explaining the situation at hand (knowing full well it most-likely won't matter). -- Venomaru 2.0 13:29, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
The reason why I feel Brainiac Attacks is in DCAU continuity is because it shares so many qualities with the equally awful DTV Mystery of the Batwoman. Same character designs yet with brighter colors, returning voice actors with inexplicable replacements for random characters, and overall juvenile storylines with continuity and tonal problems which preclude either from dovetailing completely into the DCAU. I decided to move Brainiac Attacks back into the DCAU subheading for these reasons. Therefore, to anyone reading this, I would propose a compromise: either leave both S:BA and Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman under the DCAU subheading, or simply remove BOTH into the 'stand-alone films' category. For the purposes of any kind of proof, both teams behind both productions considered their respective video features to tie into established continuity; however, the basis for MotB being included and S:BA being discounted is nonexistant, and therefore, neither can be proven. In fact, the director of S:BA considered his feature to be a continuation of the Superman Animated Series; it seems highly likely that Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman was not discredited only due to a lack of fan backlash, but there is no more sufficient evidence to canonize or de-canonize this feature too. The only proof against Superman: Brainiac Attacks are lone interviews by single members of the DTV staff (such as Curt Geda and Duane Capizzi) giving their OPINIONS as to why the respective features do or do not tie into the DCAU; this is opinion, not fact, and Warner Brothers has not confirmed nor denied either DTV's canonicity in any regard. To conclude, I move that both Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman and Superman: Brainiac Attacks should remain under the DCAU heading due to lack of any concrete proof either way beyond fan (and lone creator) opinion. If concensus wishes to move BOTH out of the DCAU heading and into the stand-alone film category, this is an equally satisfying choice which has no validity than their inclusion; but due to the above-mentioned points, the similarities between the two features are such that either both must go or neither can stay. They were both produced independently of their respective series' years after they finished and animated by new teams. -- Spacebot 05:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC)